I'd go with: it lasts as long as it's intended to last.

Seams easy to me.

I'd simply assume that every building with a literal threshold has a metaphysical threshold as well. It just might be very very faint. I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to raise the threshold of a place of business from 0 to +2 in these cases.

If you are taking shelter in a cave, now that is a horse of a different color. In this case there is no literal threshold and the bonus shouldn't apply.

That said I don't think the power is overpriced. It's darn good actually if you think of it, just not in every imaginable situation and that holds true for most of the -1 powers.

First of all thanks to everybody for their constructive contributions. I'd like this thread to go on a bit longer, so please feel free to further add your opinions.

It seems like the majority of participants lean towards allowing ambush rules to be used from under a veil. Billy's side note slipped my mind (I sometimes tend to overlook them) and seems to be the only guidance to how veils are supposed to work. If they are meant to be a really god stealth role then use for ambushes clearly seams to be implied.

I don't think that blocks function against defence rolls. With that in mind:

Ambushes require multiple steps. First you have to hide, then you actually have to make the ambush. I'd certainly allow veils to cover the hiding rolls, but maybe not the final ambush roll. (And yes, I know that the final step says you can keep your hiding roll. But a veil isn't really a hiding roll.)

That was my first assessment that lead to my moratorium on veiled based ambush during our game session. But it seems like I have to change my opinion. Point is: when veiled you are hidden. The attack is covered through an other skill.

Now, if veiled ambushes are meant to be possible, would you allow for navel gazing maneuvers too? Further aiding an already devastating possible magical attack with free tags seems like a big deal. The ambush rules allow for it. Is there a line to be drawn?

Hello everybody.

Today I'd like to get a little debate going about the question of ambushes out of veils. During our last gaming session the winter knight in my game decided to veil himself and do a magical attack (could have been a maneuver my memory is a little fuzzy) onto two mortals that where guarding a train. He stated that since he was veiled and sneaky the ambush rules should apply.

In that situation I wasn't sure how to react. On the one side I can see some validity in the statement of my player. The concepts of veils and ambushes are reasonably comparable, yet the idea of ambush rules out of veils can lead to some pretty nasty rule breaking / power gaming. Imagine: It's relatively easy to create a powerful veil around your self. I won't go into detail on this, because I believe that by now we all understand the magic rules good enough to acknowledge this as true. The power of the veil makes it pretty much impossible for mortals and low to mid-level supernatural baddies to break it. Not only is the wizard able to carry his ambush around with him (since veils aren't stationary as common ambushes usually are) he is also able to cast a powerful magical attack from out under it that, if ambush rules apply and the ambush/veil isn't discovered is apposed only by mediocre skill-levels. The extra shifts that can come out of this are ... well ... potentially insane.

As I didn't want to create a precedent at my table I didn't allow the combination of veils and ambush rules at that point, but neither me nor my players where really happy with it. I'm curious on what other GM think about this and if similar situations have come up elsewhere.

My only idea so far is to make the ambush rules still apply in some form. For example the stealth role could still apply to set up the ambush. Since setting an ambush has lots to do with good positioning and terrain abuse this makes some sense to me. But how to do it? You could make the stealth roll aided by the power of the veil. You could do it the other way around and modify the discipline role for the veil by the stealth skill. It all seems clumsy to me.

Input please!

Thank you very much for this nice report. I had the pleasure to run this at a con too and had a similar experience.

All my players where new to the system and most of them hadn't a clue about the novels. But that didn't matter. Night Fears doesn't require either, witch makes it a perfect one shot for a con game.

At first I tried to explain some basic rules but then I realized, that I didn't have to. I ended up explaining rules where they were necessary and it worked out fine. All you have to do is hand out the character sheets, let the players decide who they want to be, go through the questions, set some aspects and you are good to go.

Unfortunately we weren't able to go into act III because one of my players backpacks was stolen from right under our noses. I guess that says something about the immersion that we all were experiencing, but it killed the game nevertheless. I'm looking forward to running it again at the upcoming FeenCon in Bonn next month.

Your sketchbook will make a very nice addition to my material too! Thanks a lot for that as well. Looks awesome and should help at bringing the true background story out.

Its you're game, but I think the paragraph on YS290 starting "In addition, Summer magic..." is pretty clear that it allows biomancy effects at evocation speed.  It specifically says it allows evocation spell effects that encourage renewal. AKA, healing.

Totally agree with most of the other comments here about limitations on healing.  But, the greater point is, whatever healing you allow thaumaturgy to do (be that a lot or a little), IMO YS is saying summer beasties can do it at evocation speeds.

Its all part of that natural cycle/opposites thing the fae have going: Summer fae make the best friends...and winter fae make the worst enemies.

Please, don't get me wrong. I'll again state that I have nothing against summer magics healing powers. I agree that it's implied in it's renewal aspect. I agree that most fey are probably capable of doing it at evocation speeds. That said I find it a little far fetched to equalize the terms renewal and healing too.

I was not talking about what the fey may or may not been capable of. What I was talking about was what a mortal would be able to do if gifted or burdened with summer magic. That is why I'll stand by my statement. Summer magic as sponsored magic for a mortal in my opinion can hardly be what it is for the fey. For them it's as natural as breathing is for us. As a stand alone power or even as a booster no wizard or practitioner will ever come close to what the fey can do with their power ... at least that's the way I see it.

No mid combat healing?:

  What about thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation?  If someone can acquire enough shifts could they not duplicate recovery powers to remove a mild?  if so could a sponsored spell not first cause a moderate to heal like a mild or use similar stronger magic to greater effect then on the following round remove a mild?...or something that heals like a mild?  I think the ramifications could be overpowered, but is it possible in RAW?

I think that sponsored magic in fact might be able to reduce the healing time or get rid of a mild through means of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. As always it'd depend on the sponsor. To me it makes perfect sense that soul fire could do it but not very much else. Even summer magic seems not to qualify ... can't imagine wild growth is something you want to happen in your body *g* .

It's still seams a big IF considering that sole fire is hard to come by.