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Messages - daylightdreamer

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Author Craft / Re: The Question of Setting
« on: May 25, 2009, 03:51:35 AM »
Did some thinking about this.  It seems to me that setting can be dictated by the story that you tell.  I mean there is a completely different feel from NYC to San Franciso, Seattle to New Orleans, Chicago to Miami.  If you have a midwest mindset to your story, I do think you have to be true to the story.

Yeah, exactly. That's actually a big part of why I ultimately decided to keep it where it is for now. I'm from the midwest and Chicago just...Well, when I was talking to a friend of mine about the whole setting change thing, he pointed out to me that the big draw of Chicago is he rich history that you can play off of. Not to say that other cities don't have gritty histories, but Chicago is just ingrained in the culture as having a history of crime, mobsters, political corruption, etc and I just like the overall feel of the setting better. I mean, New York has a history like that as well, but it's different.

Plus, after outlining everything, it's important to the story that it's a major hub city in the US, which basically boils down to in a very broad, general sense, New York, Chicago, and LA. I've planned things out with my world based on that and Chicago just works the best. Hopefully I don't regret that later.  :-\

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Author Craft / Re: The Question of Setting
« on: May 24, 2009, 07:47:09 PM »
Yeah...I really think that no matter where it's set there's going to be research involved. I mean...even if I set it in my home town where I've lived almost all of my life, I would still have to do research on the setting because I don't know everything about it and I forget things. But it's easier because it gives you a starting point for that research.

Like I said, I think I'm going to leave it, and I've got the rough outline of my novel done...now I'm going back through and breaking things down to fill in the important details I'll need while writing so I don't get lost. If I decide to change it later....Well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, I guess. >>; Thanks for all the help everyone.

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Author Craft / Re: Chapter Titles yes or no?
« on: May 24, 2009, 07:38:10 PM »
I personally don't use them, but then again, I have enough trouble coming up with a title for my book, etc, so it just seems like extra work that I'd rather not do if I don't have to.

I think they can be a great way to whet the reader's appetite, so to speak, and make them want to push forward (like when there's a nagging question the reader has and the chapter title hints that it will be answered or at least addressed here), but at the same time, I think they're easy to screw up, too.

I agree that they seem to be more in the realm of young adult literature. I can't remember the last fairly modern adult book that I read that used chapter titles. I really think it's a personal preference, though. I'd really wait and see how it feels once a given piece is done. Does the chapter title add something or not? If you're not sure, have other people read a few samples and ask if they like the titles or if you should drop them.

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Author Craft / Re: The Question of Setting
« on: May 21, 2009, 12:53:31 AM »
Okay...there are a lot of comments to address, but I'm going to try to address as many as I can.

How much do you wanna bet this guy tried, and failed, to write commercial fiction?  That comment has "sour grapes" all over it. ;) 

He's a poet, first of all, so it's really hard to get a lot of stuff out of him about prose type stuff. We had a novelist as the head of the department when I first went there (part of the reason I went there), but she transferred out before I even got to have a class with her and they brought in this guy. He's just a lit snob, partly, and he's also just...odd. He says that when he reads, he can't visualize what he's reading. It's just words on the page, so he's all about making it look good on the page and making the words sound good next to each other.

From your description, I think your story sounds sufficiently different from Jim's to make it OK.  PN Elrod has a vampire detective series set in Chicago, but the Depression-era setting makes it quite different from most urban fantasy currently on the market.  My advice is, don't get too hung up on stuff like this before you actually start writing; it'll only hold you back.  You can always go back and change it later if you think it necessary.

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm just going to make sure I tread the line carefully. And really, I'm not going to be able to get a lot of good feedback on it until it's written, so yeah. If I have to change it later, so be it.

Or is one of the types who believe the only "real" stuff out there is anything considered literature.  I had a couple professors like this in college. 
...
Something I discovered, that would've been helpful before college instead of learning afterward, is that it would've been a good idea to look up the CW professors to see what they've done and how open they'd be to genre.  Oh well.  I wrote something like 12 chapters in the one class, even though the prof graded only the first 25 pages, and gave me a C.

Yeah, I've really just kind of gotten screwed. One, I was the first child to go to college and I didn't shop around as much as I should have. I settled on this school because I liked the school and the program seemed really legit, but then the professors have since all juggled around and the one good one I had is never around to talk to anymore. I'm trying to set up an email dialogue with him, but it's proving difficult. Oh, if I could turn back time. Sadly, by the time I realized this was probably a poor choice for what I want to do, I had my degree basically done and I don't have the money to spend if I were to transfer. I'll be graduating in one more semester, so yeah. Hindsight is 20-20.


GRRRRR.  Still--you can learn something from anyone.  Wring him/her dry of what you can and then discard. your purpose is to improve your craft. Remember, you may one day have to work with an editor that you can't stand.  It's good practice.  Also, you'd be amazed what even this idiot's recommendation might mean on your resume/bio--so bump that C to an A next time, get the creeps notice and play them for everything you can get out of them.

I'm not normally so mercenary, but time is prescious---don't lose it because you don't like the instructor.  And frankly, this jerk deserves the mercenany treatment...

Yeah, I've done my major project there and I learned a lot from him and the other faculty. I just don't know how much of it is applicable for what I want to do. He does have a lot of interesting advice, it's just not usually topical. I've been trying to treat it like an exercise. Do what he says and while I'm doing it, try to find ways to apply it to what I really want to do. I'm going to try to get some more out of everyone before I graduate, but I'm starting to look elsewhere to improve my craft.

My vote would be "write where you know"; there are plenty of people out there for whom the bits of getting Chicago wrong that Jim not being a Chicago native has put in the books are things to grumble about, and on the contrary, it's really cool when someone writes about a setting you know well yourself and gets it right.

I think I'm going to leave it for now and if nothing else, change it later. I'm not a Chicago native, but I go to college within 40 minutes of there, so I've been down there a lot. I'm actually setting the majority of the story in the suburbs north of Chicago, which is where I live when I'm at school, with a detour up into Milwaukee, and then parts of it in Chicago, too. If I write a sequel (and I'd like to, but I don't want to get ahead of myself) it would probably be mostly in Chicago, but that's then, this is now. I want to be able to get the details right, which is why I want to use the area.

Oh, and about the road trip thing, since I won't be near the school this summer do to poor job market, I won't be able to road trip down there as easily, but I'm planning on trying to get down there at least once so I can check up on any issues that come up in the novel. If nothing else, most of my friends live in that area, so I can always call them and be like "Hey, can you drive over here and tell me what you see?"

Thanks for all the advice everyone. :) It's really helpful. Sorry for the long post...>>;

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Author Craft / Re: The Question of Setting
« on: May 20, 2009, 01:57:32 AM »
Thanks for all the comments guys. They're helpful.

Ultimately, it isn't what you think or what we think-- it's what the agents and publishing houses think.  If you intend to shop the manuscript eventually, I seriously doubt that Roc or jennifer jackson would consider it since they represent Jim--unless your take is unique and extremely interesting to them and your voice is amazingly different from Jim's.   IF YOU DON"T INTEND TO SHOP IT, then it doesn't matter.   

See, that's the issue, though. I would like to try to shop this, depending on if it turns out the way I'd like it to, which is the only reason I'm even considering the setting change. I just really don't have a lot of experience with all the facets of this. I'm a Creative Writing minor, but the only professor at my college who had any experience with publishing commercially left. The new head of the department who taught most of my classes thinks that even wanting to write commercial fiction makes you a sell out and a bad writer and told me as much. You can imagine how please I was with that.  >:(

I guess I just feel kind of adrift and not sure what to do about this. I don't even know where to begin trying to put myself in the mindset of an agent or publisher. I don't think my stuff is that similar to Jim's, but at the same time, it might be similar enough for it to be an issue and I just don't see it since it's my story. I guess maybe I should move it just to be better safe than sorry?

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Author Craft / Re: The Question of Setting
« on: May 18, 2009, 07:58:04 PM »
Is your work similar to JB's?

Well, they're both Urban Fantasies, so yes, in that respect they are. I'm sure he's also influenced a few other things in the story, just because his work is floating around in my subconscious, but I'd like to think they're different beasts.

Does it fit into the "supernatural detective" genre?

This one's harder, because I guess it depends on how we're categorizing "supernatural detective." The story revolves around vampires, not Wizards and company like the Dresden Files, and the main character isn't a cop, PI, detective, etc. by any sort of professional (or even unprofessional) means. He's more of a dilettante and politician and he doesn't get hired to investigate things or whatever. He's exiled from his home on a false charge because of political things and he's working against the main antagonist to stop his power play and get back home, but figuring out how to stop him involves some investigating, so there's that.

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Author Craft / The Question of Setting
« on: May 18, 2009, 07:26:49 PM »
I apologize if there's already a thread like this on here. I looked for one and didn't see one, but I suck at looking. >>;

Basically, my question is this: You've got an awesome idea for a story! Now how the heck do you figure out where to put it? What things do you need to take into consideration when trying to pick a setting for a story you'd actually like to see published?

Personally, I'm working on my novel and it sort of grew out of something less serious, originally, that was a for fun thing set around the area I'm currently attending College in, which would be one of the suburbs between Milwaukee and Chicago. I was planning on the majority of the story taking place in these suburbs, and then in Chicago itself, with one trip to Milwaukee as well.

Here's the issue, though. Now that I'm looking to make this something serious and potentially try to publish this, Chicago is sort of Jim's turf, which I never even really thought about before. Jim's teacher told him not to set his story in Kansas City because it was too close to LKH's turf. So he picked Chicago.

By that logic, should I try to set up camp elsewhere rather than on already claimed turf? Or is it okay as long as the stories are different enough? What do you guys think. Is it okay for stories to have setting overlap in a similar genre as long as they are considerably different spins on the genre? If not, what will Urban Fantasy do when all the major Urban areas are claimed, so to speak?

I figured I'd pose this question here to see if anyone else has a similar issue while I decide if I should tweak my story and move it to the Twin Cities, closer to where I was born, or not. I don't think anyone's claimed that yet.

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Author Craft / Re: Making Generic Magic more Appealing
« on: May 17, 2009, 10:27:48 PM »
Well, my first thing is I like the whole magic to create not magic to destroy thing. I think you can create an interesting magic system just using that as a base concept. If that's the case, are there other forms of supernatural what-have you that is basically the flip side of the coin? I'm big on balanced forced and all of that, but I think if you're going to go with this using magic to create thing you're going to need to fully explore what all that means and set up some rules for it. What all do you want magic to be able to accomplish. What do you mean by create? Can you use spellcraft to completely build something from nothing but energy and will then? Would creating a fire column like we see Harry do fall under "create" as you're "creating" fire, even though the intent of the fire might be to destroy?

I think that's some food for thought in that department. As far as adding spice and so such...I generally look at a lot of mythology and metaphysics when I'm figuring out the nuts and bolts of magic. I'm also a neopagan, though, so I have a lot of references for energy channeling and all of that just kind of laying around my apartment. You could draw from things like the old Greek version of the elements and how everything is made from Earth, Fire, Wind, Water (and Spirit, too possibly) and find a way to incorporate that. There are a lot of sources, but that's somewhere to start with that.

And as far as the clones thing...speaking as an English major, really everything's been done before. It's not a good idea to blatantly rip other people off, but at least when I do stuff like this I usually start with a "Hm. I think I'd like my magic to work kind of like it does in this book, but I want to also work in this idea. And I really don't like this bit, or it doesn't work for what I want to do, so I'm going to get rid of that...and replace it with this...and then I like this idea from this other thing I read, so maybe I can do something like that..." Eventually you get to a point where you can still see influences from other sources, but you can't look at one specific source and go "You totally copied that!" *shrug* My advice there would be to give it time to cook in your own head. You'll put your own spin on everything without even realizing you're doing it, most likely.

I hope this helps some. :)

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Author Craft / Re: Author In Progress
« on: May 17, 2009, 05:55:48 AM »
Thanks for the warm welcome and all the encouragement. ^_^ You guys are all awesome.

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Author Craft / Re: Author In Progress
« on: May 16, 2009, 06:48:14 PM »
Thanks.  ;D This seems like a great community, so I'm really happy to be here.

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Author Craft / Re: Author In Progress
« on: May 16, 2009, 04:47:59 PM »
Hey all!

I'm so glad I found this forum. I've been a Jim Butcher fan for a few years now, but just recently found his live journal and this forum. In any case...

Hey, I'm Erika and I'm a soon-to-graduate (graduating a semester early in December, hopefully) English Major with an Emphasis in Creative Writing (ooo, doesn't that sound fancy?). I've been interested in writing since I was in middle school when I had to do a lot of it for one of my English classes and I also stumbled into the realm of fan fiction. My teacher at the time told me I had a lot of potential, and writing soon became about all I ever wanted to do.

I've started (and shortly there after abandoned, after either getting lost in or scared of the GSM) several novels, but just lacked the commitment to continue with them. Plus, I'll admit, they really were terrible. I've discovered that writing high fantasy and writing in the third person are both difficult for me, so now I'm beginning anew after writing several short pieces of fiction and finding my voice in first person contemporary fantasy.

I'm currently working on a piece under the working title Stars Never Rise which I hope to complete this summer (lofty goal, but I'm a college student and other than work, I'll have plenty of time). I've got about four and a half chapters, but then I realized that I really haven't outlined this story properly, so in order to avoid getting lost in the GSM, I'm taking Jim's advice and doing some serious outlining at the moment. Then I'll get back to the fun part.  ;)

In any case, Stars Never Rise is a story written from the point of view of Roderick, a vampire who's been exiled from his home territory on a false charge and his struggle to get back at the jerk who landed him out in Suburbia and get back home as well. It's a sort of Urban/Suburban fantasy set in the Chicago/Milwaukee area (because that's where I live currently and they say write what you know) and I'm really excited about it.

If you're at all interested, I've got the first chapter posted and some other random, mostly writing related journaling on my live journal, which can be found here http://starsneverrise3.livejournal.com/

Feel free to go and add me as a friend and pester me to look over your stuff if you have a live journal for similar reasons. :) I  need more writer friends to keep me on task for this whole thing and I love reading what other people are working on and I'm always willing to give feedback. I've been doing it for my major in college for a couple years now, so I've been told I'm getting pretty good at it ;)

Look at me ramble...I'll stop now.  Thanks for reading if you made it this far.

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