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Messages - backseat_adventurer

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DFRPG / Re: Rewriting Lawbreaker Powers
« on: March 14, 2019, 02:09:50 AM »
I'm not sure what the problem here is, honestly. Sure, they'll use the bonus and get a +1 to hit nonhuman foes pretty regularly...but they spent a Refresh, getting an actual bonus out of it seems totally legit to me.

This version has the nice bonus of making people who've taken Lawbreaker significantly more inclined to murdering their enemies of all sorts, since they're better at it. That's pretty accurate to Harry Dresden's characterization, and seems very appropriate to me thematically. In many ways, they're being less rewarded and more incentivized to continue with the murder.

I'd say that the problem I was worrying about was more that they'd add a few more Lawbreaker powers.  Then they have a +2 or +3 to any attack they make, so long as they're aiming to kill. I'd probably intervene and have the Council or a Big Bad arm wrestle them into a less overt use of their magic but it's still remarkably powerful.

As for the comparison between Lawbreaker and an evocation specialization, with a specialization, you get a +2 bonus to use upon one element and for control and/or discipline.  With a couple of Lawbreaker powers, it's to every element you have.  That is a lot of flexibility with the minor catch being that you have to go for lethal blows.

Now, the original post was talking about a character that is on the redemption track.  That probably wouldn't be a problem but for some players?  That might get interesting.

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DFRPG / Re: thoughts on winning the war with the Outsiders
« on: March 14, 2019, 12:19:55 AM »
Forum being as quiet as it is, there's no need to worry about necromancy.

Good to know I don't have to award myself the Lawbreaker power ;)

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One way or another, I think the setting's gonna be made unrecognisable. Jim has talked many times about the "big apocalyptic trilogy" at the end of the series, after all.

Yeah, I figured that because it couldn't be true to Harry's character if he didn't upend it all.  I confess to still hoping. 

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That aside, the Outside seems to be outside (no pun intended) the normal balance-of-power considerations. It's just plain bad. It's shown no redeeming qualities, and Outsiders seem inhuman enough that totally eradicating them wouldn't be particularly similar to genocide. So if I were a Dresdenverse mortal, I'd definitely want it gone.

Outsiders do seem to tamper with the status quo, particularly with their power to allow creatures to act outside of their natures (no pun intended there, either).  That said, I've often thought that the Laws of Magic and the general state of the Dresdenverse felt like the product of diplomatic negotiations where nobody gets what they really want.  So, the Powers That Be (God maybe?) played the long game with the Outside, using pawns.

Why didn't the PTB do better to protect the world?  Maybe because of the importance of mortal free will, and being unable to act against their own nature to preserve this?  Bah, lots of conjecture but fun to consider.

The bit about supernatural genocide was more about the aftermath of a world where the Gates are permanently closed.  Perhaps the supernaturals get killed in the final battle, or perhaps they fall to infighting.  So, more like the Fae and Old Gods rather than Outsiders.  Sorry for any confusion.

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DFRPG / Re: Rewriting Lawbreaker Powers
« on: March 13, 2019, 08:24:34 PM »
Well, that's the problem. If I'm roleplaying a character like Harry, I'm not breaking the Laws, so I get no bonus. Therefore, there are no mechanical benefits to spending the refresh.

LOL, I think that's my point too.  The Lawbreaker power just seems like it's supposed to be a punishment of sorts, as well as a Tantalus.  I think I was looking at it like that because I've had a few problem players in the past.  I do see how you wouldn't get much mileage if you weren't going warlock.  It's rather like Marked Like Power, which seems set up to both be an advantage and a detriment depending on the situation but mechanically it's just awkward.

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The equivalent is, it doesn't have one. If it's not an attack, it doesn't get the Lawbreaker (1st) bonus.

That's exactly the problem.  If you give something nice to the 1st Law, you have to do something nice for the rest of them.

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Do you have any suggestions for Lawbreaker (2nd-4th, & 6th)? I've already written up my idea for Lawbreaker (1st), and I figure Lawbreaker (5th) should just be +1 to necromancy since necromancers are supposed to be scary powerful and you'll get a lot more consequences from the White Council even if you avoid technically breaking the Laws.

I'd love to hear suggestions.  Most of the areas of magic the Laws prohibits or limits are pretty broad.

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DFRPG / Re: Rewriting Lawbreaker Powers
« on: March 13, 2019, 08:12:35 PM »
Uh...Lawbreaker is pretty weak without broadening. Like, probably the single weakest power in the game. +1 or +2 Control when breaking the Law is a nice bonus when it applies, but even with the way I widen it it's not nearly as wide as you're implying.

I mean, let's take the First Law, since that's probably the most generally applicable. Sure, my version is +1 Control on all Elements...but it's also only on attacks, not maneuvers or blocks of any sort, and only when you're trying to kill. That's not broader than +1 Control to one element. It's not even broader, in practice, than +1 Offensive Control with one element. Both of which are only 1/2 a Refresh rather than the full -1 Refresh Lawbreaker grants. It does stack, of course, but still, there's a reason I threw in the predictive bonus.

And that's my broadened version. The version that gives +1 control only to kill humans specifically? Absurdly and unconscionably weak for a full Refresh. Heck, that's weak for a Stunt, never mind a Power. A Stunt to give +1 to hit humans with an attack skill is plausible...but add the killing restriction and that's weaker even than most other Stunts. And Powers are rather intentionally more impressive than Stunts.

I suppose I've been playing with far too many players who would completely take advantage of that.  Since most opponents in combat are non-human they can intend to kill, take advantage of the bonus, but not 'really' break the Law another time.  Then it's a mad scramble to engineer situations to prevent that.  Our table is currently pretty reasonable but I suppose I've learned a few knee-jerk habits.

If it works out in play, I will take it on.  I just don't want to reward bad behavior ;)

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DFRPG / Re: Rewriting Lawbreaker Powers
« on: March 13, 2019, 07:45:00 AM »
This is what I have a problem with. I don't like the idea of having to deal with a penalty because I want to role-play a specific type of character. As a lawbreaker, my character already has to deal with narrative consequences (wardens chasing them, doom of Damocles, etc.) and compels to the changed aspect. I don't like the idea of being forced to spend refresh to no benefit.

Honestly, I think I see it as something more akin to what Changelings can do.  They can RP their Choice and gain access to other powers but it potentially takes them out of play.  This is the practitioner/wizard version of surrendering themselves for power.  I think it makes sense there is a mechanical refresh penalty.  Besides, there are benefits to the power, so it's not really a big loss.  Power at a price, right?

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The idea wasn't that it condemns other actions, but that it benefits actions that are related. For example, the Lawbreaker (5th) power according to RAW would give no benefit to raising an animal from the dead, only humans. I would expand it to encompass animals as well, plus other forms of necromancy. That way the character still has to deal with the temptation to use necromancy, but there are differing levels of consequences. Animal necromancy, for example, wouldn't earn you another count of Lawbreaker, but might mean that the Wardens try to chop your head off unless you can come up with a really good reason for it (or might encourage them to investigate you and find out your first instance of Lawbreaking).

I can see what you are getting at about the temptation of power etc. but I think that is better dealt with by invoking aspects and good RP.  Giving a concrete mechanical benefit to a wider range of actions or targets for one refresh... feels imbalanced.  More about that below.

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This is what I was worried about. Do you think it would be more balanced if it was only +1 power to attack spells? This would seem to fit narratively by encouraging you to use your power more recklessly, and fallout would be a good source of compels to have you 'accidentally' kill someone else, or to, for example, burn a dead body and have the wardens come after you thinking you've killed someone else.

I think it's still too broad.  All attack spells, on all possible targets is huge.  Evocation grants 3 elements.  Break a single law and that's essentially a +3 power for only one refresh and a few RP consequences.  For things like necromancy or biomancy... it gets a little harder, too.  Raising a zombie via thaumaturgy technically isn't an attack spell, so what is the equivalent? 

Also, as I was saying before, the power reads "Gain a +1 bonus to any spellcasting roll whenever using magic in a way which would break the specified Law of Magic".  This suggests it's the breaking of the Law itself that grants the bonus.  If the Law isn't broken, you don't get the power, therefore, you shouldn't get the bonus for targeting non-humans.  Unless somehow the scope of the Law itself widens if you break a law, which we now it doesn't. 

Really, the 'human only' catch and linking it to the act that breaks the law, are the prime ways Lawbreaker is limited.  Removing those limitations in a game that has combat with non-humans as a core part of play is problematic.  I do still feel that the Lawbreaker powers give a nice, situational bonus, representing the temptation of power, with an RP penalty which can be handled by negotiation with your GM.  Tacking on too much more makes it far too overpowered for a one refresh power.  It's almost the power equivalent of a stunt.

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DFRPG / Re: Rewriting Lawbreaker Powers
« on: March 13, 2019, 12:49:12 AM »
Okay, first I have to admit my group and I are pretty new to the DFRPG.  We're still working the kinks out of our interpretation of the rules.  Now that disclaimer done, I'll get back to answering your question.

The Lawbreaker powers do appear to be very black and white.  Do this and you are forever stained etc.  This can seem rather limiting but as you've said in the novel canon, law breakers can seek redemption or to better themselves.  I think, however, it's a bit of a toss-up about how successful they can be. 

Molly walks a pretty grey line with her use of mind magic and then stepped over the line in Ghost Story.  Harry killed Justin and has been a mostly good boy since, although, he has deployed potentially lethal magical force against humans.  That it didn't end up lethal... well there was quite the element of luck.  Also, his resolve to protect his love ones has been strongly implied to know no bounds. 

Does this mean once a Lawbreaker always a Lawbreaker?  That's more complicated.

Perhaps we should also consider what Lawbreaker means from a more than mechanical POV.  I've heard it described in the novels and online, that the power represents the practitioner's belief they have the Right to do what they did.  To mess with someone's mind, to take a life etc.  I think this makes sense.  Until a practitioner can truly shed that belief, not just admit they did wrong, and truly decide never to do it again, they would be Lawbreakers.  Both Molly and Harry acknowledge what they did was wrong but they'd both do it anyway if they thought it justified.

For our table, removal of the Lawbreaker power means lots of RP, change of an Aspect and repayment equal to the Lawbreaker refresh with GM permission.  If they break the same or a different Law, they get the old Lawbreaker power and a new one.  This may mean the character gets permanently taken out as an NPC.

Of course, your mileage may differ.  You get to decide if or when someone no longer deserves the Lawbreaker power.

As for 'adding on' to the Lawbreaker power, I'd strongly suggest you avoid that.  To expand the power suggests that magic innately condemns actions other than law breaking.  It also adds a mechanical bonus greater than what Refinement generally gives.  Essentially, it's a floating 'specialization' to all types combat magic, to use your example.

Everyone would want to break laws with that kind of reward.  Don't forget that the Lawbreaker power is meant to act as a mechanical penalty by removing a player's ability to tailor their character by choosing where to invest refresh, raising the risk of taking the character out and on the RP level, opening them to punishment from the Council. 

If you do want to be able to facilitate a redemption arc with a character, that's fine.  Just work out with the player how to do it and what rules or thresholds you want to employ.  Maybe ask the player to make their Lawbreaking and search for absolution be expressed in their Aspects.  Have them invoked.  The Lawbreaking should be made meaningful to the character and thus player, not just a convenient bonus with minor RP consequences.

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DFRPG / Re: thoughts on winning the war with the Outsiders
« on: March 02, 2019, 10:33:07 PM »
I hope people don't mind me posting since it's been a while but I'm new and this topic really grabbed my interest.

To be honest, I'm not sure if the war with the Outside is one we want to see won.  By 'we' I mean not just us as readers but also the beings living in the Dresdenverse.

So why not for us readers?  It goes back to our love of the Dresdenverse.  We love it as it is with all the power struggles, factions and supernatural goings-on.  Massively change the setting and suddenly fans lose a large part of what made them fans.  This doesn't discount fans using AUs in games and fanfic or inventing new struggles for the 'new' world but still, it's a bit of a damper on things.  In the back of your mind you always know the WoJ nixed the world you love.  Or at least greatly changed its paradigm.

Now for the characters in-world.  To be honest, if the Outside is permanently barred from the world forevermore, we'd better hope the Faerie Courts and the bulk of the supernatural nasties get squashed in the process.  Otherwise... well, where is Mab going to get her kicks?  Titania would have to get into it and all the consequences of one Court winning would happen.  Other supernatural factions would breakdown or form causing mass carnage over years.  Maybe God intercedes, maybe a struggle for power erupts, maybe magic is outed, etc.  Now, even if the supernaturals get eradicated (and I really dislike the shades of genocide here), what happens later on?  Somehow I doubt the Outsiders are going to be cowed for long and they have all eternity.  Earth probably won't be ready for recommencement and will be devoid of their protections.  Either way you look at it, for the average person, or even our favorite characters, 'winning' the Outsider War, isn't necessarily a good thing.

The series really promotes the concept of a supernatural 'balance of power'.  The write-up for Las Vegas in the Paranet Papers really typifies this.  The series is also strongly behind the concept of freewill in that you can do what you want... at a price.  Sometimes the price is higher than you know and there will be consequences.  Given that Harry has a tendency to upend the status quo, to questionable benefit, I think we'll probably see a huge change in the status of the War.  Will it be won?  A better seal placed on the Gates?  Who knows.

I just hope that the ending doesn't completely upend the Dresdenverse.  Add new conflicts, new goals?  Great!  Just not make it unrecognizable with a Pyrrhic victory.

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