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Messages - agrabes

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DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis is different
« on: June 02, 2017, 07:55:07 PM »
I'm still of the opinion that since there exists a gate, that means that the outsiders can come in.  Obviously we are trying to keep them out, but still it's possible.

I would say it's not that it's impossible for them to come in.  I agree, having a gate suggests that it is possible.  But rather than what is possible, I'm talking about what has actually happened and makes sense to have happened in the context of what we know so far.  It's implied in the books that the Outsiders have been trying to come in for essentially all of eternity and so far they have never been successful.  Yes, they can cross over for a limited amount of time if specifically summoned and through whatever method Nemesis uses to infect people, but they can't just slip in and out on their own volition.

Regarding the Oblivion War, I don't think that once some kind of being has been sent to "Oblivion" they go to the Outside.  I think they cease to exist entirely, beyond all ability to come back.  That seems to be the entire premise of the Oblivion War: make sure that evil beings which are already gone and mostly forgotten become entirely forgotten so that they cease to exist.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis is different
« on: June 01, 2017, 06:59:58 PM »
They are described more as Outside /all/ reality, outside the whole multiverse. Rather than a parallel dimension of the multiverse, "outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy." (WOJ, 2015)  They were there before Creation got going, and are trying to return things to that nice clean primordial state.   JB described them as the "generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd" (WOJ).  Also, just like Bram Stoker on the Black Court Vampires, HP Lovecraft's work are considered real works based on actual secret knowledge in the setting.

Right, thanks that is a much better description of what I was trying to say.  Essentially, there are many, many monsters, evil beings, and dark gods of various mythologies that exist "inside" the Dresdenverse.  Separate from all those incredibly powerful evil or amoral beings are the Outsiders, who have their own desires to essentially destroy the universe.

My point in all that is that it doesn't really make sense that people could cross over back and forth between the "outside" and "inside".  A lot of people in this thread are suggesting that a human (or other being of the Dresdenverse) could somehow move beyond the Outer Gates or even go back and forth at will.  That doesn't really jive with what we know of the Outsiders.  If you could go back and forth that easily, it would have already been done en masse and the world would have been destroyed by the flood of Outsiders.  Maybe there is a plot twist that what we think are Outsiders influencing the real world are actually just a group of "Insiders" who have some kind of evil cult that want to open the gates and have no contact with or influence from the true Outsiders, but I think that would be kind of a lame plot twist personally.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis is different
« on: June 01, 2017, 03:14:22 PM »
What if nemesis is something that was once human, but went through some kind of Ascension ritual. Similar to the dark hollow, but instead of based in necromancy, it was based on outsiders or magical corruption. So it is not a being reaching in acting as a bridge, it is a bring reaching out acting as a bridge.

Aren't the Outsiders described in the books as essentially beings from another dimension?  Not necessarily all evil, but just so strange and with completely different moral views and motivations that they seem evil to most people on the "in" side of the Outer Gates.  The idea that Outsiders were once part of the Earth or NeverNever seems contrary to what's been said "on screen".   It's definitely possible that the characters knowledge of Outsiders is wrong, but it just doesn't fit the theme of the story.  Everything in the story is setting up to be a battle for the Outer Gates, with the outsiders locked outside the Outer Gates, but wanting to get in.  If it was possible for people to slip across like that, it would undermine the entire premise of the story.


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