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Messages - LordDresden2

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1
Does it?  Remember why you should never bargain with the Fae!  They never can be trusted! And what is the foundation of trust? Truth! In my opinion the point missed repeatedly by mortals is they fall for the Fae cannot lie line.  The Fae cannot lie, but that is by their own standard of what a lie is, not what a mortal's concept of a lie, is.. There are many shades to the truth, and the Fae are expert and using all of them.  Especially with Mab who can twist things to the point where no, she isn't knowingly lying, but nor is she telling the whole truth!
Nor if the image Harry saw of Thomas in the soul gaze without the Hunger Demon real, would she want that frail human as her Knight.  I think not.  However unless there is a way to shut off the Hunger Demon, which Margaret may have learned that secret from Lea or Mab, the Demon would clash with the Winter Knight mantle.. In fact the Demon and the Mantle working together would make quite a monster in my opinion.  So thank you for making my point, Mab might not have been lying to Harry about that, but at the same time she has no intention of carrying out her threat of making Thomas her Knight. 

From Small Favor:

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"Not having it could have gotten me killed, too," I said.  "And then you'd have wasted all that time you've put in trying to recruit me to be the next Winter Knight."

"Nonsense," Mab said.  "If you died, I would simply recruit your brother.  He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers."

That's a direct statement on Mab's part.  Not an implication, or a suggestion, or a hint, it's a direct declarative statement.  Either she means it...or she uttered a falsehood, which as far as know she simply can't.

2
  But did she? Technically Susan didn't die, the thing she turned into was killed.

No, Susan did die in the transformation.  The thing that was left afterward had access to her memories, and some of her personality was copied, but it wasn't her.  A few moments later, the newborn monster was itself slain.

If that was still Susan in any form that Harry killed, then the supercurse would have propagated along Susan's family lines.  Maggie would have been killed, along with whatever other blood kin Susan had, and the Red King and his ilk would have been fine.

When a human is converted into a Red or Black Vampire, that human is dead.  Not just metaphorically but literally, just as dead as if they had been beheaded or blown up.  What takes their place is a pure monster with their memories and a copy of parts of their personality.

That's why a newborn Black Vampire will cheerfully murder former loved ones, in spite of having the memories.  The human is gone.

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Can Mab be soul gazed?  Yes, she is 99.99% Fae not, but what about that .01% that is still human?  What about the Mothers?  Supposedly they started out human eons ago, went the Lady,Queen,Mother route, did they simply lose their soul in the end?  Does that mean they are damned?  Or at least what was human to start with..

We don't have enough information to say.  JB has been kind of reticent on this point.

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So what happened to Susan's soul once she completely changed?

She left.  Just as she would if someone had shot her with a gun or something.  Susan died in that moment.


4

Does she?  Page 402 Small Favor
Sounds to me like Mab is messing with Harry.  Knights have to be mortal, but Mab doesn't say Thomas is mortal, she says,""he is in love that makes him mortal enough for me."  She didn't say that made Thomas a mortal, but that it was enough.. Enough for what?  A bargain, she is hinting that she could make him a mortal if he'd agree to be her Knight.  But would she actually go through all that trouble?

She said he was mortal enough for her.  Mab cannot utter a knowing falsehood.  She didn't say he 'would be mortal', she said, 'is mortal'.  That means he is already, as is, mortal enough to qualify to be Winter Knight.

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Or would Thomas want to become that very ordinary mortal with the weak eyes that Harry saw in the soul gaze?

Mab can't make Thomas pure human.  According to JB, yes, she could tear the parasite right out of him, but that wouldn't leave anything recognizable behind.  She can't surgically, neatly remove the parasite and just leave the man.

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Does Molly still have her free will?

That is a damned good question.  I've wondered it myself.  Is Molly Sidhe now?  How much free will does her mantle leave her?  We already know she can use cell phones now, but we lack data to determine much else.

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Mab thought Thomas might be mortal enough to be her Winter Knight because he was in love with Justine.  Thomas was also Margaret's son, so half mortal.

Most White Court vampires are the offspring of a WCV and a mortal.  Half mortal is the norm for them.

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 However if push came to shove, would Mab have tried to make Thomas her Knight? 

She said she would.  Harry asked her what she would do if he had been killed, since he knew she wanted him as her knight.  She said point blank in response that she would offer it to Thomas.  Not that she would consider it or maybe, but that she would offer it to Thomas.  Straight declarative statement, and Mab always speaks the truth.

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Mavra of the Black Court is able to wield magic, she isn't a mortal.. She is one of the undead, so does that make her mortal enough to have free will?

She can use magic.  You don't have to have free will to use magic, but having free will is what causes magical techbane.  That's why Fae can use magic and also use smartphones and other electronics, no techbane.  But the combination of magic and free will screws up electronics and other technology.

6
Now that I think about it, we have proof that White Court vampires have at least some free will.  For one thing, Mab considers them 'mortal' enough to be candidates for Winter Knight.  That's pretty telling, because the whole point of the knight mantle is for the Fae Court to have a free-willed operator at their employ.

But even more so, we've seen with Thomas that if a White Court vampire uses magic, it generates techbane.  The techbane effect is specifically rooted in mortal free will.


7
DF Spoilers / Re: Politics and magic
« on: November 11, 2024, 04:43:27 AM »
I have been thinking about the world building of the Dresden files. People make deals with Magical beings for money, power, success and just about everything under the sun. So it stands to reason that at some point someone had to have made a deal with mab to be Prime minister,  president , king or what have you.
What being in the Dresden files who  make the best campaign manager. Im going with Odin.
What would such a deal entail

You can bet on it.  Only you can bet that it's way, way more complicated than just a simple quid pro quo to become a national leader.

Seeing as most people today don't believe in the supernatural;

But in the Dresdenverse, there are quite a few people who do know the truth, or part of it.  It's not a majority that believe, but certainly a large minority are perfectly well aware of at least the real existence of the supernatural.

The thing is that the supernatural powers are already deeply entangled into the mortal world power structures.  The White Council may be the most entangled one, but it's also the most human one.  The White Court are certainly deeply plugged into it, Lara has demonstrated the ability to manipulate the Federal Government at a high level.

And of course, the Feds have at least one of their own counter-version in the Librarians, who are apparently feared in the supernatural world.  Probably other major nation-states have their own versions of that.

I don't think a deal to become President, or Prime Minister, or whatever, in a major state, is likely.  Not at the simple, straightforward a level.  It would be more like trading favors, the White Court (for ex) pulls strings to help get John Doe elected to a spot, and in return he does favors for the Court.  In that respect, it would be no different than the Mafia or the Yakuza or Archer Daniels Midland or the Teamsters Union or whoever.  And of course in the DV all these groups are also interacting with each other as well.  You'd probably be just as likely to see a deal with a supernatural power to get John Doe a board seat at GM or Apple or Disney as you would a legislative seat.

And we've seen how Marcone interacts with the supernatural while running his criminal empire in Chicago.

One of Harry's worries, in fact, is that if the general public ever realized just how compromised every institution and group is by the supernatural, society would break down.  That was part of how Mavra was able to blackmail him back in the day.





8

I think the Hunger Demon does fully dominate their host. Why? Because once the Hunger Demon has fully established itself, the host needs to feed it, i.e. usually kill, to survive.  Remember how Lara and later Thomas talked after the Skin Walker was finished with him, they enjoy it..  There is another side to the strength that the host gains from the Hunger Demon, power.  That is the most addictive power on earth..  Maybe because he was Margaret's son, Thomas never quite got to that point, he never was interested in empire building unlike his sister, Lara, who clearly is.


Yes, but I'm not implying that the human side of a White Court vamp is morally superior to the demon within it; and Thomas is an outlier, the human side is almost always corrupted by the drives of the demon and its need to feed.  What I am saying is that the human need to socialize and the desire of the host to fit in with uncorrupted humans to ensure its own safety, ends up deflecting the goals of the demon from shear destruction into something that seeks to protect humanity in general, if only for its own selfish ends. 

We already can be pretty sure that the demon-parasites don't totally dominate their human hosts, because we've seen what that looks like when it does happen, the 'silver eyes' state.  Remember Thomas in Turn Coat, when he was about to attack Molly:  he wasn't acting like Thomas, he wasn't even acting like a sapient being.  It was more like an animal.

I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess.  When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct.  It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either.  Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.

Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry:  the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human.  Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding.  They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.

Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.

That said, I agree with Mira that there is almost surely an Outsider connection of some kind with the parasites.  It's interesting that Thomas and Lara both use 'empty night' as a swear phrase.

9
Or like a good child abuser, Justin groomed and then infected Elaine little by little... Then again would young, 14,15, or even 16 year old Harry recognize Nemesis in a soul gaze?  I really doubt it, 16 year old Harry had no clue it was an Outsider that was trying to kill him, all he knew was it scared the hell out of him and he acted accordingly to survive.

Yeah, but even if he didn't understand what he was seeing, I suspect the presence of Nemesis would look bad.  Harry might not understand what kind of bad, or what it meant, but I suspect it would still just look wrong.

But even if he didn't recognize what he was seeing, we need to keep in mind that you never forget what you see in a soulgaze.  It's there forever, engrained on your memory.  So if he learned the signs of nemfection later, he would still remember seeing them in Elaine at that time, if she was infected then.

Elaine might have been nemfected after they soulgazed, but it's hard to see it happening before.

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According to the Donald Morgan micro-fiction, "That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.  From then on, we could not be sure that the child (Harry) was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis."  "We" had to be The Merlin, Donald Morgan and anyone else they trusted.  Perhaps it meant the entire Senior Council; who were alive at that time, or just The Merlin's closest allies on the Senior Council.  It doesn't really matter.  It also doesn't matter that Ebenezar disagrees with the Merlin.  The Merlin, Donald Morgan and probably a significant portion of the Senior Council were afraid and are still afraid, that Harry Dresden is controlled by Nemesis, even if Harry hasn't been fully activated by Nemesis yet.

Unless Jim is playing a huge game with the readers, we know this isn't true.  We also know that Elaine tried to help Justin DuMorne enthrall Harry.  Elaine claimed that she was enthralled by Justin.  What if it is much more simple than that and Elaine was and is "a creature of Nemesis."  It also explains why Justin wanted Elaine in the first place.  Why train one potential starborn when you can train two of them.  Harry and Bob have both said that Elaine had more skill than Harry, just less raw power.  That may have made her a better candidate for Nemesis.

I haven't found the original WoJ on what it takes to be Starborn.  The birthdate is all most of us remember; and it is not just one day every 666 years, it is a period that can last a few months.  Something else has to happen.  I could be wrong, but I think the word I'm looking for is activate.  Something has to happen to activate an individual to be more than just have the potential to be starborn. 

Also, I bet the comments Jim has made about Elaine do not rule her out as being Starborn, they are just vague and do not say that Elaine is starborn and perhaps mildly suggest she isn't starborn.  On top of that, we don't know what the final ingredient is that makes someone starborn, but Elaine has had contact with a Queen of Fairie, just like Harry has.  It could be something a major player like one of the Queens, an Angel, Fallen Angel or even a Titan can do, to fully make someone starborn.  Titania may have chosen Elaine to be Summer's starborn in case Mab failed or for other reasons, but didn't know her candidate was tainted.  Lest I forget to mention this, Elaine is the main suspect; really the only suspect we currently have, for who nemfected Aurora.  It certainly wasn't Lea.   

From Jim's standpoint, Elaine being nemfected also explains why the idea that Elaine might be Kumori was set up.  It is a writers version of a slight of hand magic trick.  Create a distraction, a red herring that gets the audience looking in one direction while the real chicanery is happening elsewhere.   

Elaine claims she has hidden from the Council because she doesn't trust them.  It makes sense.  Elaine can see how Harry has been treated, but it can also be something more than that.  Nemesis doesn't want Elaine to reveal herself until the moment is right.  The moment won't be right until Harry is faltering for some reason, or being hounded by the Council to the point he is ineffective or at the very moment when Harry thinks he is facing the final big boss fight one on one.  Plus, keeping Elaine under wraps keeps the White Council looking in the wrong direction, looking at Harry, not knowing he is a distraction and is actually the starborn they need if the want to fight Nemesis. 

Finally, Elaine might not consciously know about Nemesis.  She might believe that Justin enthralled her and she came out of it when Harry killed their teacher.  At the moment Justin DuMorne died, Nemesis relinquished full control of Elaine to reassess the situation and decide on it's next course of action.  Eventually, Nemesis suggested Elaine go to Summer for help and gave her the means to nemfect aurora.  We may find that Cowl physically gave Elaine what she needed to do the job, but Nemesis is what drove Elaine's actions.

Interesting, but there's one big potential issue:  Harry and Elaine have soulgazed.  Unless she was nemfected afterward, I'd think it would have shown up.

11
I wouldn't call farming humans for food exactly civilized.

'Civilized' in this context does not mean 'moral'.  The traditional root of the word 'civilized' is 'city dweller'.  It implies large-scale social organization, complexity, sophistication, but by no means necessarily morality.  The gladiatorial games in ancient Rome were quite 'civilized' entertainments, for all being organized mass torture and murder.  When they enter decadent phases, civilizations often become very morally corrupt.

The White Court is all about decadence.  The White Court nobles tend to have expensive, sophisticated tastes.  They like fine wines, delicate foods, vintage cars, expensive clothes, silk and satin and fine carved furniture and woven rugs that cost more than a working-class family lives on in a year.

In Turn Coat, Binder points this out.

In a post-apocalyptic world, a lot of the luxuries the White Court so like simply could not exist.  Yeah, they could have their little protected enclaves, but a lot of the delicious, luxurious products that they so love absolutely require a sophisticated world-wide economy and tech base to produce and maintain.

Such little protected islands would have no silver wraith cars, no super-expensive foods flown in from around the world, there'd be no movies and TV shows and so forth. 

Every box of fine chocolates Lara indulges in implies cocoa farms, harvesting personnel, transportation to get the harvest to the factory, a factory to process it, a chocolatier to take the processed chocolate and make the expensive little tidbits out of it, more distribution systems to get that $1000.00 box of chocolates to Lara's bedroom.  Which implies gasoline and jet fuel and communications, which imply refineries and oil wells and TV/radio equipment or at least telegraphs or systems of messengers, etc.

Magic can get around some of this, but not nearly all.

Life even in the nobles' protected fortresses would be a lot less delicious and rich and exotic than the nobles have now.

Yeah, the White Court loves civilization.  Doesn't make them any the less predators who feed on people.


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I remember her saying that, but one has to wonder how did she arrive at having that opinion?  Until he killed Justin, was arrested by the wardens and went on trial before the White Council with a sack over his head, Harry had never heard of the White Council.  For whatever reason Justin taught him nothing about that body, you'd think Justin would have kept Elaine in the dark as well.  But did he?  If we can believe Elaine after Harry killed Justin she fled to and hid in the Summer Court for a period of time, was her opinion of the White Council formed there?  There is also the theory that it was Elaine who carried Nemesis to the Summer Court and infected Aurora.  At some point supposedly Elaine returned to the real world and attended college.  We know that Mort stays off the White Council's radar, was Elaine in contact with him?  Something doesn't track here, wizards unlike Harry don't advertise that they are wizards and don't talk about the White Council.  Yet Elaine seems to know about about the White Council, where is she getting her information?

The existence of the White Council seems to be no secret among the magical community.  Opinions about them vary widely, but Elaine would learn about them simply from being in touch with other practitioners.

Now that does touch on how little we know about the way Justin raised Harry and Elaine in detail.  Obviously he didn't tell them about the Council, the Wardens appear to have come as a nasty surprise to Harry.  But he must also have kept them both pretty much out of touch with the rest of the general magical community as well, or they would have heard of the White Council.

It would be very interesting, and probably very revealing, if we knew just who Justin permitted H/E to have contact with in their teenage years.  I would think he would have had to tell them something about why they never met up with other magic users, or else he must have made sure their only contacts were 'controllable'.

I'd really like to know more about that period.  The more I think about it, the more important it seems.

13
DF Spoilers / Re: Attitudes and opinions about DF changing with age?
« on: October 14, 2024, 04:07:31 AM »

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There are enforcers for a secret society who consider themselves entitled to behead children for breaking rules they don't know exist, and they do it right here in Chicago...and you can't interfere.  You have to look the other way.

There are whole families of super-powered sex predators and rapists (the White Court) who prey on innocents, sometimes to the point of death, rape their minds and bodies, right here in Chicago, including teens (at least)...and you must not try to interfere.

And so on.  Do you think the Karrin of that time could have accepted the necessity of looking the other way?  But if she doesn't, a lot of good cops die for no reason, other people's lives get shattered, probably some cops end up imprisoned (which can be a fate worse than death) by the supernaturals manipulating the system, her family might pay a steep price too?  Could she accept the reality of that, before the loup garou rubbed her nose in reality?

Actually Harry if you will remember didn't feel that Karrin should look the other way.. He was horrified about the kangaroo courts that the Council held or often didn't bother with before they chopped off the heads of kids they felt were going warlock.  No, Murphy wouldn't accept the reality of that, but the truth is, neither did Harry. 

He accepted it enough that he knew he couldn't stop it.  He accepted it enough that he knew he had to keep Karrin in the dark until she was ready to face up toe the cold fact of the Council's overwhelming power.

Yeah, he hated it.  He still hates it, he just knows it's necessary now.  He's still casting around for some other solution, but so far he hasn't found one.

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Actually you can argue that Murphy did accept it, she had no problem acting as judge, jury, and executioner for Nic in Skin Game, though she claimed she was no longer a Holy Knight she used a Holy Sword in an illegal manner.  While doing that she also violated every oath she ever took as a police officer and got a Holy Sword shattered.

Yeah, but that came much, much later.  The turning point for Karrin was the loup garou rampage at the police station.  That forced her, by brutal example, to accept the reality of the overwhelming power of the supernatural, and that she cannot be in control when dealing with it.  It rubbed her nose in reality.

Even after that, she would periodically start to slip back into her former mode of thinking, because the Law was her comfort belief, and because she desperately hates feeling out of control.  In Death Masks, when they were about to go up against Mavra and her minions, she has a moment when she suggests to Harry that they could do it the legal way, bring in a mass police force to deal with the problem.

Even Harry is tempted by it.  But he knows better, and deflates Karrin's bubble as gently as he can without indulging her fantasy.  This sort of thing happened several times over some of the middle books, and usually Harry would have to remind her of the loup garou to bring her back to Earth.

In Proven Guilty, when Harry tells Karrin about the execution of the Korean kid, her first reaction is fury and probably an impulse to call for arrest warrants.  After all, the incident was, by definition, First Degree Homicide with a minor as the victim, and a number of other felonies as well.

But Harry (who was similarly angry about the whole situation himself earlier) has to remind her that the police couldn't have handled the kid, there was no mundane jail cell that would safely hold him, and he reminds her reluctantly of the loup garou again, IIRC.  Then he rather reluctantly admits, to her and himself, that that White Council really has tried, repeatedly, over the centuries to find a way to rehabilitate warlocks.  Nothing they've tried ever works once the warlock slides past the edge.

Murphy reluctantly acknowledges this, and to salve her pride says she can't ignore a dead body if it's found, and Harry promises her that it won't be.  But of course even that is just her pride talking, if the Council ordered her to hush up an investigation, body or not, she'd have to do it.  They're just too powerful to disobey.

She also starts to slip into it in White Night, but then she has an encounter with a Gruff that reminds her of the loup garou without Harry having too.  She bluffs her way through the encounter at Mac's, in a way the ends with Mac and Harry deeply impressed.  But truthfully, they really shouldn't have been.  She was bluffing a representative of a supernatural megapower, and if the gruff had called her bluff...well, that would have been unpleasant.  She shouldn't even have tried it.  It was a Cool scene.  But an unwise moment.

I suppose that's an example of my older self's perspective, actually.  Bluffing is what you do when you have absolutely no other option.  Bluffing to salve your pride is foolish, and can get you into a world of hurt if you're not lucky.  My younger self saw Cool, my older self knows the wisdom of the old saying, "When in doubt, STFU."

That same pride eventually did lead to her shattering a Sword, as you note.









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DF Spoilers / Re: Attitudes and opinions about DF changing with age?
« on: October 14, 2024, 03:54:14 AM »
I am not sure what you mean here, because when we first meet Martin, Susan was already infected and partly turned.  If I remember correctly, Martin knew about them, still brought her to town with him, it was a set up.

I doubt that.  Yeah, he brought her to town with him, but the two had been working together already and they had business in Chicago.  I think Martin thought that they should stick to that business, and that Susan should avoid Harry.  Harry, for his part, was still in a certain amount of denial about his relationship with Susan, as we saw by his jealous suspicion that she was 'with' Martin now.

Yeah, later on Martin manipulated the destruction of the Red Court using Harry and Susan, but it's usually a mistake of ascribe uber-chessmaster status to characters years ahead of time.

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In other words knowing the chemistry, Martin made both of them part of his long term plans.  After Harry's rescue from Nic when Shiro took his place, Martin knew full well that Harry was weakened, wounded, thus vulnerable, he also knew what the smell of blood would drive Susan to.. Yet he had her take Harry to his place.  So while Martin may have warned Susan, throwing them together when biological forces were so strong coupled with emotional was asking for trouble.  Yeah, some common sense prevailed, i.e. Harry tied Susan up so she wouldn't outright kill him during their sex, but that doesn't mean he was in control, he was driven by his needs and the overpowering effect of the vamp venom.

This is what I mean by over-ascribing planning.  If Martin was trying to manipulate them into a sexual encounter, why?  What does he gain by that, at that point in time?  Also, he would certainly know that the most likely result of any such encounter would be a dead Harry and a Red Vampire Susan, who would then be loyal to the Red Court and know a bunch of valuable secrets about the Fellowship of St. Giles.

Yes, Harry is a Council Wizard.  Yes, it's plausible that he has magic strong enough to survive such an encounter.  But Martin would need to be able to know that for reasonably sure, and also know that such a Wizard would end up trapped by his own defenses alone with Susan, and not have some magical means to quench the lust.  It's a lot of unknowns that Martin couldn't possibly manipulate or know, he's extremely smart and capable, but still basically human.

If Harry's emergency defense shield had permitted him to leave, he could have knocked Susan out and gotten away before they got carried away.  If circumstances had been just slightly different, they might never have ended up trapped together at all.  Etc.

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It did end, remember Susan went to South America shortly after she was infected.  However that didn't end how Harry felt about her, he wanted to marry her.  At that point in time Harry still thought he was all alone, he didn't know who Thomas was and he still believed that Elaine was dead.  If you will remember he became obsessed with trying to find a cure for Susan, was in a deep clinical depression over guilt and her leaving at the beginning of Summer Knight.  I don't know if you have ever been there in your life, I have.  While yes, common sense says the relationship was ended and it was for the good of all, emotions play a stronger role, Harry is a sensitive guy and couldn't deal with it.  Easy to say the relationship had ended, but in practice, in Harry's heart it hadn't.  I say that as an older woman who did find that life went on, found my life partner after, but I understand all too well what Harry was dealing with.

So do I.  But at the same time, my older self recognizes the danger of it.  I'm not saying I blame Harry for reacting the way he did.  Only that I recognize that his reaction was both natural...and futile.




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DF Spoilers / Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« on: October 14, 2024, 03:44:23 AM »
Carlos has Harry come back from the dead is now a winter knight and then has Molly attack him. Isn’t that enough to push the man against Dresden?

He was loyal to Harry but since changes, so much has happened and so little trust has been gained. I can understand why he is suspicious of Harry now

Yeah, no question that enough has happened to make it understandable if Carlos really has come to the conclusion that Langtry was right all along.  I myself, as I have said, suspect that in fact Carlos is probably of divided mind.  I suspect he kind of wants to believe in Harry...but can't quite anymore.  I suspect that Carlos suspects that Harry is in the process of going off the rails and doesn't even realize it himself.

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