91
DF Spoilers / Re: Name someone you want to appear in Peace Talks
« on: July 15, 2019, 03:12:00 PM »
I would like to see some Black court Elders (maybe Mavra?), high-ranking Fomor & the interactions between Fix/Sarissa/Titania.
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92
DF Spoilers / Re: Proven Guilty speculation, because, why not?
« on: July 14, 2019, 03:41:26 AM »
@Bad Alias
True, but given how clean & minimalist the interiors are described as being (except for the replica of Harry’s apt), it seems unlikely that thousands of bones routinely clutter the passageways of AT.
Combined with the fact that the entry gates had been blown apart, hellfire & acid pitted the walls & Mab’s personal troll guards’ remains are found defending her retreat in the courtyard, I find your point unlikely (although I get you’re playing devils advocate).
@g33k
Absolutely, if the theory that this was a BC attack is correct, I would assume that there would be numerous spellcasters of different backgrounds - spearheaded by Namshiel who was either juiced up or is Nfected & able to let loose the power of his Fallen once in a while.
One the open questions is why didn’t the attackers breach the spire in the courtyard where Molly, Lea & the Wellspring are? Despite fighting a campaign to get to the spire, it is seemingly untouched when Harry gets there.
My theory is that either Uriel intervenes since the Nfected Fallen is letting loose, or if Namshiel has been juiced, perhaps Mab was able to kill the wielder but not capture the coin, bringing down the attackers’ biggest gun.
True, but given how clean & minimalist the interiors are described as being (except for the replica of Harry’s apt), it seems unlikely that thousands of bones routinely clutter the passageways of AT.
Combined with the fact that the entry gates had been blown apart, hellfire & acid pitted the walls & Mab’s personal troll guards’ remains are found defending her retreat in the courtyard, I find your point unlikely (although I get you’re playing devils advocate).
@g33k
Absolutely, if the theory that this was a BC attack is correct, I would assume that there would be numerous spellcasters of different backgrounds - spearheaded by Namshiel who was either juiced up or is Nfected & able to let loose the power of his Fallen once in a while.
One the open questions is why didn’t the attackers breach the spire in the courtyard where Molly, Lea & the Wellspring are? Despite fighting a campaign to get to the spire, it is seemingly untouched when Harry gets there.
My theory is that either Uriel intervenes since the Nfected Fallen is letting loose, or if Namshiel has been juiced, perhaps Mab was able to kill the wielder but not capture the coin, bringing down the attackers’ biggest gun.
93
DF Spoilers / Re: Proven Guilty speculation, because, why not?
« on: July 13, 2019, 02:29:39 PM »
I’d be really curious to see how a necro/ectomancer would’ve handled the Blood Gate. Given that Hades is likely a necromancer himself, I’m fairly certain there’s a way to pass it without actually killing a member of your coterie.
Maybe Nic should’ve hired Ghost Harry from GS instead of WK Harry ;/)
Maybe Nic should’ve hired Ghost Harry from GS instead of WK Harry ;/)
94
DF Spoilers / Re: Proven Guilty speculation, because, why not?
« on: July 13, 2019, 04:33:52 AM »I'm pretty sure Morris's point is simply that Harry couldn't enter Hades at the Gate of Fire from just any place. It had to be Marcone's vault or a place almost exactly like it owned by a lord of the underworld. There's a good chance it was the only place in the world like it.I disagree - Marcone’s place was specially made to be the easiest place for Nic & Co. to break into. In SG, it takes them all of 2-3 chapters to break in. This was of course for Mab’s con to work. Surely Hades’ demesne wasn’t cordoned off from the mortal world for centuries until Marcone’s bank was built...
Quote
As to the number of bones, the bulk of them might have nothing to do with the attack on Arctis Tor. Winter is not a fun place. I believe the bones are connected to the assault, just raising the point that it's not hard to imagine that Arctis Tor would have a lot of bones around anyway.We know this isn’t the case from CD when Harry is in AT. Also the sheer number of bones & the way they were placed clearly shows a brutal fight, especially since a lot of the bones were melted by hellfire.
95
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Short Story
« on: July 12, 2019, 07:38:57 PM »
@g33k
One might even say Arctis Tor shaking power
One might even say Arctis Tor shaking power
96
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Short Story
« on: July 12, 2019, 03:40:07 PM »
@Mr. Death
Ah yes, my mistake about leaving the coin in Hades. To be clear, I’m not 100% that this theory is true (there are problems with it), but I think it would be cool twist if it were.
I do like the theory about Mab lying to Nic that the Blood gate demands a blood relation as sacrifice, although if that were the case I could see Nic bringing along a couple of sibling squires & having one sacrifice the other - I mean having Nic sacrifice the only person in the world he loves would require extreme circumstances because Nic would literally think of every other option before he decides to go with killing his daughter.
I feel like there is more to it, especially given their mysterious conversation before he actually drives a knife into her.
Ah yes, my mistake about leaving the coin in Hades. To be clear, I’m not 100% that this theory is true (there are problems with it), but I think it would be cool twist if it were.
I do like the theory about Mab lying to Nic that the Blood gate demands a blood relation as sacrifice, although if that were the case I could see Nic bringing along a couple of sibling squires & having one sacrifice the other - I mean having Nic sacrifice the only person in the world he loves would require extreme circumstances because Nic would literally think of every other option before he decides to go with killing his daughter.
I feel like there is more to it, especially given their mysterious conversation before he actually drives a knife into her.
97
DF Spoilers / Re: Quick question about pre-Storm Front
« on: July 12, 2019, 03:09:27 AM »
@g33k
Thanks for pulling up that quote, it was exactly what I was referencing.
@Mira
I am not convinced that Harry burned Justin’s house to the ground - remember that even when he cuts loose at Bianca’s ball in GP, he burns a dozen people but doesn’t burn down the entire building (although he does damage it severely).
If even the structure of the house is standing & some magical artifacts are not destroyed (like Bob), I believe members of the SC can likely sense black magic residue.
@Avernite
Exactly, and since Justin is dead he is unable to defend himself from any of Harry’s accusations. Circumstantially even Justin was seen as ok person by the WC, the facts gleaned from investigating Harry’s story would cast Justin in a very poor light.
Thanks for pulling up that quote, it was exactly what I was referencing.
@Mira
I am not convinced that Harry burned Justin’s house to the ground - remember that even when he cuts loose at Bianca’s ball in GP, he burns a dozen people but doesn’t burn down the entire building (although he does damage it severely).
If even the structure of the house is standing & some magical artifacts are not destroyed (like Bob), I believe members of the SC can likely sense black magic residue.
@Avernite
Exactly, and since Justin is dead he is unable to defend himself from any of Harry’s accusations. Circumstantially even Justin was seen as ok person by the WC, the facts gleaned from investigating Harry’s story would cast Justin in a very poor light.
98
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Short Story
« on: July 12, 2019, 02:59:25 AM »
@Snark Knight
It’s a theory I read about a couple of months ago. The line of logic to me goes like this:
It’s admittedly not perfect, but there was definitely something more going on before Nic sacrificed Deedee at the blood gate. Their mysterious conversation included phrases like “the enemy cannot get to you here” & his response to when Deidre tells him that she loves him is “That is the problem”.
@Avernite
I actually had a WAG that only immortals are capable of being Nfected. From what we’ve seen with how it works with the Sidhe, it allows its’ hosts to bend their nature, something that should not be possible - it allows Maeve & Aurora to override the programming & compulsions of their mantles. It basically gives “free will” to beings that no longer have it.
This is why it wouldn’t work on mortals - Nemesis doesn’t give mortals any advantage that free will doesn’t already. Instead, I believe that the Outsiders corrupt mortals like Cowl etc by offering them immortality.
It’s a theory I read about a couple of months ago. The line of logic to me goes like this:
- A Denarian threw hellfire at the Black Council backed attack on Arctis Tor - Mab points at Namshiel, who is Tessa’s sorcery teacher. Namshiel could be the vector of Nfection in Tessa’s crew, with whom Deedee spends some time (she is clearly more loyal to her dad, but Tessa’s concern for her in SG shows that Deedee is somewhat close to her mother).
- Nic was unaware that a Denarian was involved in the AT assault & reacts violently when informed. No doubt after the events of SmF he did some digging to see what was going on
- By the time of SG, Nic figures out that Deedee has been Nfected so decides she must die, with her coin remaining in Hades. With Deedee dying in the Greek Underworld, she would also be spared Heaven’s wrath (from the Denarian POV).
- Nic could have sacrificed any of the young squires who consider him a Demi-god. Remember, these people are so brainwashed that they think of lopping their tongues off as a great honor. Did he really need to kill Deedee when he clearly has other options?
It’s admittedly not perfect, but there was definitely something more going on before Nic sacrificed Deedee at the blood gate. Their mysterious conversation included phrases like “the enemy cannot get to you here” & his response to when Deidre tells him that she loves him is “That is the problem”.
@Avernite
I actually had a WAG that only immortals are capable of being Nfected. From what we’ve seen with how it works with the Sidhe, it allows its’ hosts to bend their nature, something that should not be possible - it allows Maeve & Aurora to override the programming & compulsions of their mantles. It basically gives “free will” to beings that no longer have it.
This is why it wouldn’t work on mortals - Nemesis doesn’t give mortals any advantage that free will doesn’t already. Instead, I believe that the Outsiders corrupt mortals like Cowl etc by offering them immortality.
99
DF Spoilers / Re: Quick question about pre-Storm Front
« on: July 10, 2019, 06:45:29 PM »
@morriswalters
I’d assume the SC does, given that Harry has mentioned how well-informed they generally are (although he criticizes the conclusions they reach with the info & mentions that their info is not of ‘street level’).
Given that Nemesis has likely been around for a while, I would be very surprised if most, if not all of the SC were at least aware of it (& secretive about it). We know they are aware of Outsiders.
@Mira
IIRC, Harry mentions looking for Elaine everywhere when he first runs into her in SK. I believe it is only after that endeavor fails that he reaches the conclusion she’s dead. Although admittedly he could’ve just thought that she ran away while he was dueling Justin.
Another suspicious thing about the duel is that Justin never used a death curse - no doubt this gives some credence to Lafortier’s claim that Harry might’ve burned Justin in his sleep.
I’d assume the SC does, given that Harry has mentioned how well-informed they generally are (although he criticizes the conclusions they reach with the info & mentions that their info is not of ‘street level’).
Given that Nemesis has likely been around for a while, I would be very surprised if most, if not all of the SC were at least aware of it (& secretive about it). We know they are aware of Outsiders.
@Mira
IIRC, Harry mentions looking for Elaine everywhere when he first runs into her in SK. I believe it is only after that endeavor fails that he reaches the conclusion she’s dead. Although admittedly he could’ve just thought that she ran away while he was dueling Justin.
Another suspicious thing about the duel is that Justin never used a death curse - no doubt this gives some credence to Lafortier’s claim that Harry might’ve burned Justin in his sleep.
100
DF Spoilers / Re: Quick question about pre-Storm Front
« on: July 10, 2019, 02:13:06 PM »
Speaking from the political angle, remember that Eb has friends on the Senior Council - Martha Liberty, Injun Joe, Simon Petrovich (who likely would’ve been on the SC at the time of Justin’s death) - that’s 3 votes for ‘pardoning’ Harry. I’ll bet Rashid was the 4th. We see this play out in SK.
4 out of 7 is enough to save Harry. As we see in PG, Molly is saved after enough members of the SC come through that the Merlin can’t vote their proxies.
Another point of note in this debate is the mark of HWWB on Harry - we know he gets this from his interaction with the Outsider prior to his confrontation with Justin. The SC would have to know what it is, & would know that a teenager is unlikely to have the knowledge to summon an Outsider. They would come to the seemingly logical conclusion that Justin was trying to Nfect Harry - Harry would’ve told them how Justin tried to enthrall him, which is what started their conflict.
Personally I’m not sure that it was Justin who sent HWWB, but the SC would likely see it that way.
@Mira
Do we know that Justin’s house burned down to the ground? I don’t recall reading that although it’s possible - IIRC there’s a throwaway line in one of the casefiles where Bob jokes about how Justin salvaged him from ashes of Kemmler’s place, similar to how Harry salvaged Bob from the ashes of Justin’s.
4 out of 7 is enough to save Harry. As we see in PG, Molly is saved after enough members of the SC come through that the Merlin can’t vote their proxies.
Another point of note in this debate is the mark of HWWB on Harry - we know he gets this from his interaction with the Outsider prior to his confrontation with Justin. The SC would have to know what it is, & would know that a teenager is unlikely to have the knowledge to summon an Outsider. They would come to the seemingly logical conclusion that Justin was trying to Nfect Harry - Harry would’ve told them how Justin tried to enthrall him, which is what started their conflict.
Personally I’m not sure that it was Justin who sent HWWB, but the SC would likely see it that way.
@Mira
Do we know that Justin’s house burned down to the ground? I don’t recall reading that although it’s possible - IIRC there’s a throwaway line in one of the casefiles where Bob jokes about how Justin salvaged him from ashes of Kemmler’s place, similar to how Harry salvaged Bob from the ashes of Justin’s.
101
DF Spoilers / Re: Quick question about pre-Storm Front
« on: July 09, 2019, 03:52:54 AM »
My point in the earlier post was that just by existing & proving a long-term relationship with Justin, Harry would’ve cast doubts on his character. Since Justin wasn’t there to ‘defend’ himself, it’s likely no one on the WC knew of his proclivities in the last 10-15 years (finding & raising 2 Starborn).
Additionally, we know what Harry saw at Victor’s lake house in StF, can you imagine the type of black magic residue that would’ve been left around Justin’s property?
Additionally, we know what Harry saw at Victor’s lake house in StF, can you imagine the type of black magic residue that would’ve been left around Justin’s property?
102
DF Spoilers / Re: Proven Guilty speculation, because, why not?
« on: July 08, 2019, 06:00:21 PM »
@morriswalters
Agreed, these discussions help me quite a bit too. I suppose we’ll have to wait till Peace Talks to see if any new info is given about PG (although I suspect we’ll have to wait till MM).
I disagree about the point regarding Harry being unable to get to Hades without Marcone’s vault. I’m sure other places around the world exist, but perhaps they are even harder to break into than Marcone’s vault. Hades explicitly says that the point of his hoarding divine weapons is not to keep them away from people, but rather to force the ones who come there to show their determination & skill so that at least they would be able to use the weapons properly. Hades doesn’t mind people trying to enter his demesne, so he’s not actively trying to hide it.
Besides, in SG Marcone was in on the con, so I always assumed that Marcone’s place was set up so that team Mab (which Marcone is on in SG) would control the point of egress in case Harry failed. Since Mab cannot attack Nic without breaking her word, Marcone is the hedge - he has a legitimate gripe about Nic breaking into his bank & so can hit Nic without anything reflecting poorly on Mab.
Separately, there are other reasons why Marcone was used in SG.
Agreed, these discussions help me quite a bit too. I suppose we’ll have to wait till Peace Talks to see if any new info is given about PG (although I suspect we’ll have to wait till MM).
I disagree about the point regarding Harry being unable to get to Hades without Marcone’s vault. I’m sure other places around the world exist, but perhaps they are even harder to break into than Marcone’s vault. Hades explicitly says that the point of his hoarding divine weapons is not to keep them away from people, but rather to force the ones who come there to show their determination & skill so that at least they would be able to use the weapons properly. Hades doesn’t mind people trying to enter his demesne, so he’s not actively trying to hide it.
Besides, in SG Marcone was in on the con, so I always assumed that Marcone’s place was set up so that team Mab (which Marcone is on in SG) would control the point of egress in case Harry failed. Since Mab cannot attack Nic without breaking her word, Marcone is the hedge - he has a legitimate gripe about Nic breaking into his bank & so can hit Nic without anything reflecting poorly on Mab.
Separately, there are other reasons why Marcone was used in SG.
- Marcone & Nic had squabbled a couple of times previously with Marcone just about coming out on top (the Shroud & being able to get away in SmF). Nic was likely eager to hit Marcone again & get the better of him this time
- There have been parallels drawn a couple of times between Marcone & Hades as ‘reluctant but honorable lords of the Underworld’. Perhaps this is foreshadowing greater things for Marcone in the future. After all, Odin, Mab & Hades are helping him out now
- In the DV, power needs to have purpose. If Marcone is to become more powerful, he must have greater purpose. By making him the mortal world’s supernatural banker, Mab et al are elevating Marcone in terms of stature & power.
103
DF Spoilers / Re: Quick question about pre-Storm Front
« on: July 08, 2019, 05:38:08 PM »
Even though the WC likely had a good opinion of DuMorne - given that he was Simon’s apprentice (who was on the SC) & a presumably honorable discharge from the wardens after decades of service - Harry’s story had to cast some doubts on that.
The facts as the WC would see them when they capture(?) Harry after Justin’s death were:
I think these facts are enough for many members of the WC & SC to at least suspect that Justin wasn’t on the up & up. Combined with the fact that the Blackstaff himself is willing to take on the boy as an apprentice & carry out the Doom if Harry broke probation, I think the WC was willing to see where things go.
Also remember that things were relatively peaceful in the mortal world when this happens - the WC is seemingly in control of things so they could afford to be magnanimous. At the time of PG they are greatly diminished & in a war of attrition, fighting for their survival. This makes them far more ruthless when dealing with ‘distractions’.
The facts as the WC would see them when they capture(?) Harry after Justin’s death were:
- Harry was a teenager who had been trained in the WC/ classical style of wizardry - this had to have been by someone who was on the WC themselves
- Upon a looking at teenage Harry through the Sight, the kid had the taint of an Outsider (HWWB) as well as some, but not a lot of black magic taint - a teenage kid doesn’t have the knowledge or skill to summon an Outsider so someone else likely set one upon him. Teen Harry also hadn’t used black magic consistently enough at this point for him to look like the Korean kid or even Molly
- Harry claimed to be the son of Margaret LeFay who walked a blurry line but was a WC member. She was also on friendly terms with Justin DuMorne. The SC might even know that she was trying to birth a Starborn.
- Harry likely knew enough details about Justin’s mannerisms & magic style to convince those who knew the latter that Harry had to know Justin somewhat well
- If Justin indeed ‘helped’ Harry, why didn’t he tell Harry about the Laws or the WC?
- The Blackstaff soulgazed him & said that the kid was a fundamentally decent person who had the potential for massive power. He likely told the SC that Harry had potential to be a Starborn, explaining the Outsider taint & Martha Liberty’s mysterious comment about what Harry “is supposed to become” at the beginning of SK.
I think these facts are enough for many members of the WC & SC to at least suspect that Justin wasn’t on the up & up. Combined with the fact that the Blackstaff himself is willing to take on the boy as an apprentice & carry out the Doom if Harry broke probation, I think the WC was willing to see where things go.
Also remember that things were relatively peaceful in the mortal world when this happens - the WC is seemingly in control of things so they could afford to be magnanimous. At the time of PG they are greatly diminished & in a war of attrition, fighting for their survival. This makes them far more ruthless when dealing with ‘distractions’.
104
DF Spoilers / Re: Ramírez & Lara Raith soulgaze
« on: July 08, 2019, 03:02:32 AM »
@g33k & peregrine
That makes the most sense
That makes the most sense
105
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Short Story
« on: July 08, 2019, 03:01:14 AM »
In general, I would like to see a short story about Nic, or have something about him in book 20 (which would make sense given that it’s part of the BAT & that’s kinda Nic’s goal - remember that Denarians gain power during such times) following the series convention.
There is still some stuff left in Nic’s arc that is of interest & relates to the overall story arc.
Nic seems to believe that he should be given sainthood for his actions & I like the theory that Deidre was sacrificed due to Nfection.
Additionally there would be some revelatory stuff in a short story from Nic’s POV in terms of Anduriel - who is actually in the front seat here?
What is the relationship between Lucifer & the Fallen exactly? Including Nic in the BAT could be a way to introduce higher ranking members of Hell to the series.
I’ve always liked the character & would like to see how he ends up. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him as of SG.
@Mira
I believe Denarians can definitely be Nfected - what we learn about the way Nemesis operates is that it gives frustrated immortals a way to ‘bend’ their nature - it allows the Fae to lie for example. I would not be surprised if there was a Fallen that was tired of the limitations put on it & wanted a way to break loose.
The argument that the Denarians have as much to lose as everyone does not hold water as seen through the actions of the Nfected Aurora & Maeve.
There is still some stuff left in Nic’s arc that is of interest & relates to the overall story arc.
Nic seems to believe that he should be given sainthood for his actions & I like the theory that Deidre was sacrificed due to Nfection.
Additionally there would be some revelatory stuff in a short story from Nic’s POV in terms of Anduriel - who is actually in the front seat here?
What is the relationship between Lucifer & the Fallen exactly? Including Nic in the BAT could be a way to introduce higher ranking members of Hell to the series.
I’ve always liked the character & would like to see how he ends up. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him as of SG.
@Mira
I believe Denarians can definitely be Nfected - what we learn about the way Nemesis operates is that it gives frustrated immortals a way to ‘bend’ their nature - it allows the Fae to lie for example. I would not be surprised if there was a Fallen that was tired of the limitations put on it & wanted a way to break loose.
The argument that the Denarians have as much to lose as everyone does not hold water as seen through the actions of the Nfected Aurora & Maeve.