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Messages - Mira

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6886
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 12, 2018, 04:37:55 AM »
No they were not. They gave each other permission, they were invited. It was not an invasion. The whole word invade becomes meaningless if every entering is an invasion and a lot of obviously legal things become impossible like the gatekeeper healing people in turncoat.

Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted..   To their credit Harry and Molly both thought this was stupid and trained each other, however they did it in secret because it would have gotten them into a lot of trouble...  Enemies on the Council may even have gone so far as to declare it an infraction of the Law.

6887
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 12, 2018, 04:27:03 AM »
I don't think that Morgan didn't know about the love potion. I mean come ON.. miss 2 naked people running around? he did see the demon, and the end of the fight. One girl who was out of her mind, and naked. hmmm. Not hard math there.
Mira: Laws are about their letter, not the spirit. According to the ruling bodies anyway.

But the spirit of it kept Morgan on Harry's ass for ten years!   

6888
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 11, 2018, 11:18:34 PM »
This struck me as not quite right, so I looked it up.  It's an interesting point.  She kills no one.  She simply presents an opportunity for people to see what they fear they might see.  The victims killed each other.

It's a little spooky ethically speaking.  Think going into a grocery store and handing the cashier typing paper that is made to look like money.  Immoral, but no laws broken.

However her first victims, her friends that she thought she was helping were seriously harmed by her entering their minds and trying to change their perception of things..  Yeah, the Law was broken, one isn't allowed to enter the mind of another... It is so strict that most members of the White Council have only the merest and ineffective defenses against an attack on their minds, they fear it that much... Molly and Harry were in violation to some degree by practicing on each other.

6889
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 11:13:34 PM »
I'll conceded that Morgan probably didn't know about the love potion.

But as a point of order: The Third Law says "Thou Shalt Not (Use Magic to) Invade the Mind of Another." Neither the production nor the consumption of a love potion violates that law.

A love potion may not directly enter a mind as in going in and reading it..  So in that sense it doesn't violate the Law, however it does alter the drinker's mind and thinking which violates the spirit of the Law..

6890
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 11, 2018, 07:40:09 PM »
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In Turn Coat, checking Luccio for corruption was definitely against the Law (as enforced by the Council, whether or not it would be corrupting). I think it was still justifiable, though.


  Agreed, however for someone already under the Doom, I seriously doubt the Senior Council would give her another bite of the apple...  What Harry's point was that it is very dangerous for Molly to decide when it is or isn't justified to break the Law..  Remember that is what got her into trouble in the first place, not breaking a law she didn't know existed but thinking she could go into her friend's mind without thinking through the consequences... She hadn't learned her lesson is what he was saying.

6891
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 07:35:18 PM »
You're missing the fact that Morgan didn't know about the love potion in the first place.

I mean, yes, from Harry's explanation in other sources, it wasn't a violation, but the logic here just does not work.
Exactly,  see we do agree once in a while.... ::)

6892
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 12:13:36 PM »
From Turncoat:

And it goes on and on. The laws of magic have nothing to do with morality as explained by Captain Luccio.
And Margaret was right, without justice there is no point.  Common thugs can give a neighborhood protection, but who wants to live under the rule of thugs?   Morgan's long harassment of Harry was about enforcing the Law, in the end as he died he realized it is also about justice and morality and he was wrong.

6893
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 11, 2018, 04:52:53 AM »
If you're under the Doom this may be the case.  Not so with the laws of magic.  As I posted in another topic, the laws are not like our laws in the criminal justice system.  They are not about morality.  They are about magical corruption, warlocks, Outsiders, and time travel.  Attempting to kill someone with magic isn't the same as doing it.  It doesn't cause the same taint, at least from what I can tell.

But they are about morality,  why is there a law about going into someone's mind without their permission?   If you attempt to kill someone with magic once, just because you don't succeed that doesn't mean you won't try again and succeed... What is there to prevent you trying again... Yes, it does cause some staining

6894
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 04:48:29 AM »
The thing to remember about the laws of magic have nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with protecting humanity from Warlocks, Outsiders, and those who would interfere with the flow of time.

 But it is about morality, it is ALL about morality, it is the basis of law..  A lot about black magic is it is a short cut to getting things done, because there are no rules..  You sneak a love potion in, innocent, just want to lower inhibitions... No harm, no foul... Really?  Not about morality, it is about protecting humanity from warlocks etc....  Well, consider, the young apprentice who has gotten far enough in his or her studies to make one and use it on someone he or she doesn't care to woo or who won't give them the time of day... Short cut to an end...  Harmless?  Think again the young wizard gets by with it, no thought of the repercussions for the object... Or the repercussions for the young apprentice who is now tainted by it, may become a bit lazy take more short cuts oh, now we have a warlock on our hands.. Or take Victor, some talent, got a hold of some books, perhaps the wrong books, but his original motives were not evil...  But then he found the short cuts, they got out of hand, suddenly he is a very dangerous sorcerer and people are getting their hearts torn out by remote control...   

6895
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 11, 2018, 12:36:50 AM »
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Trying is not breaking the law. You only break the law if you succeed. Morgan's word is just not enough to confirm law breaking.

However attempting to murder someone is also a violation of the law...  Molly knew what she was doing, she deliberately tried to get into her head, whether she succeeded or not is beside the point, the mere act is a violation.
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that time Molly "Examined" Harry to discover Mab's meddling and he sorta kinda maybe subconsciously gave her permission, but both Michael and Luccio did not object.   
Did he?  I doubt it, it was so important to Michael and a Holy Knight to know whether or not Lasiel still had a hold over Harry that he was willing to risk his daughter.. Not just immediately, as if caught she would lose her head, but sending her down the slippery slope to warlockhood, if it could be justified then what was to stop her in the future... As in later in Turn Coat she thought she was justified in going into Luccio's head then, as she thought the first time she did it.. As for Luccio, she was under Peabody's influence back when Molly went into Harry's head, so her actions on the matter are not really her own...

6896
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 12:26:18 AM »
In the RPG, Billy asks exactly this. Harry's answer is that it's not technically altering the person's mind or body -- it just lowers inhibitions by a lot, not much different from getting a girl liquored up.

So it's not a violation of the laws of magic, but it's sleazy as hell and not really a good thing to do either.

Taking advantage of anyone liquored up can be seen as rape..  Liquor, drugs, love potions affect one's judgement, thus one's free will to make choices..   So yeah, it is a violation in my book.

6897
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 10, 2018, 06:36:25 PM »
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I know about turn coat but Harry and Morgan both have their reasons to interpret the laws as strict as possible, Luccio's silence in proven guilty still indicates that other interpretations are possible. No quotation from Turn Coat can change that.

And Molly was still under the doom so any act that looked a little bit gray could be dangerous for her especially if Harry stopped supporting her

 Luccio had already been brain raped by Peabody and under the influence, which influenced her involvement with Harry.   She may not have even been aware at the time that Molly entered her brain that she had because of what already had been done to her, her involvement with Harry may also have been a factor.   Or because the damage done to her by Peabody was severe, she may not remember it..  There is also the desire for a cover up on the whole matter, so Molly may have dodged a bullet in this case..  However in no way is going into another's mind without permission a gray area, it is breaking the Laws of Magic pure and simple...

6898
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 10, 2018, 01:56:57 PM »
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Sure it is but Harry's interpretation is pretty stern and he was trying to keep Molly safe. Molly did something similar when she looked at Harry in small favor and Luccio, who is sometimes somewhat more relaxed, did not say a thing. This is again a gray area.

No, not a gray area, whatever her motive, she broke the Law... 

Turn Coat page256
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"You broke the Laws of Magic, Molly.  Willfully.  Even though you knew it could cost you your life.  Even though you knew that it could also cost mine. 

Not a gray area at all, it could have cost them both their heads... Highlighted by Morgan's dying words to Harry about Molly...

page 394 Turn Coat
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"I didn't tell them about Molly.  What she tried to do to Ana.  I. . . I didn't tell.

A couple of things going on, he is telling Harry in his own way that he was sorry for being such a hard ass with him.  He is telling him that he has hope that it will work out for Molly, that basically she is a good person..  However it doesn't change the fact that if he had turned her in, she would have lost her head, and along with it Harry would have lost his head.  She did break the Law of Magic,  and would have paid the price if Morgan had turned her in.

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No comparison is 100% correct because then things would be identical but it is about how a comparison can help us. Some people can cure themselves and that is exactly what Sanya started when he threw away the coin.

He was helped by the insight he got when he heard the other denarians talk about him. A beginning warlock might get insights in other ways. Part of the problem is that young wizards have little or no knowledge about the dangers.

Except that isn't how the blackstaff works,  there is only one, and the wielder is assigned the office to wield it...  Yes, free will to accept the office, also the blackstaff isn't constantly in Eb's head, unlike the Fallen of the Coins..  True, young wizards have little knowledge when their talents awake without guidance from a mentor, but again this has nothing to do with the blackstaff...  If it were so simple that a young would be warlock could be so easily cured, why isn't Eb busily waving it at would be warlocks instead of them getting their heads lopped off?

6899
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 10, 2018, 11:52:24 AM »
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Sanya was surely cured and he did it himself. Cassius however was not even after he lost his coin. Centuries of whispering are not erased that easily either.

You can call it a "cure" I guess, but Sanya gave up the coin of his own free will, and redeemed himself of his own free will.. The coin had nothing to do with that , comparing the coins to the blackstaff is apple and oranges... 

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Also, every time Molly uses mind magic after PG it seems pretty justifiable, even if technically against the Council's laws (confirming manipulation on Harry in SmF and Luccio in TC*), and Harry was willing in Changes so I don't think that even counts as against the Laws.

No, it is not, go back and read Turn Coat the warning Harry gives her is pretty stern that her head was on the line along with his..  He made if very clear that she was violating the Laws no matter what her motivation was.
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Changes Chapter 46

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    The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible.


Yeah, and I believe that Eb told Harry at some point that it leaves it's mark on the wielder but at the moment the exact quote escapes me.

6900
DF Spoilers / Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« on: July 09, 2018, 07:55:02 PM »
Of course you can cure a warlock just as you cure a denarian. At the end it is just a matter of free will however difficult.

But at the end it is not very likely most of the time so the wardens just assume that it is not possible or too dangerous and as a working hypothesis it works even if they kill a few curable warlocks.

The knights always try to cure the denarians even when that is dangerous but they are more idealistic and maybe less practical than the white council.

I believe the Merlin explained it, that once past a certain point, the cure rate is next to zero...  Harry was caught in time, though he has struggled with using the black and has been called a warlock even now...  Molly, I fear would in the end have lost her head because she had a bad habit of slipping back into messing with other people's brains..  So Mab did both her and Harry a favor preparing her to become Winter Lady, it saved her.   Waving the black staff at a warlock isn't an instant cure or a cure at all.. 

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