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511
DF Spoilers / Archangels to Fallen Angels
« on: September 30, 2017, 07:23:32 AM »
Okay so across multiple denominations there are usually seven archangels the earliest source is book of Enoch. They are Michael (Sunday), Gabriel (Monday), Raphael (Tuesday), Uriel (Wednesday), Raguel (Thursday), Remiel (Friday; Who fell from Grace) and Sariel (Saturday)

The first four we know, interestingly some early myths attribute a Sammael with falling from Grace which could be either Remiel or Sariel depending on whose mispronouncing it with a heavy inflicted accent. I'm assuming the two got mixed up a lot by various translators over the years and may even have started out as the same being.

Similarly Raphael and Raguel who in addition to their similar names seem to share much the same duties. Both police demons and fallen angels binding them when they step over the line.

When I started this topic I was going to theorise two of the Archangels had either died or fallen with Lucifer. My main evidence being. Anduriel and Lasciel.

Thanks to a http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,45443.0.html which I encourage you to read as a thorough background for this topic.
Anduriel:Etymology:
Latin, An- (without) + Hebrew, Uri'el (Light of God). 
"Shadow of God" or "God is My Shadow"   
Griffyn612
Etymology:
Latin, An- (without) + Hebrew, Duri'el (God is My Home, I Live in Heaven). 
"Apart From God" or "Fallen From Heaven"   
peregrine
Etymology:
Combination of Andariel and Duriel (fictional angels from Diablo).   
Dina
DF Title:
"Master of Shadows"

This is in addition to his title being Shadowmaster, which as Kringle confirmed means spy master. My theory is that Anduriel used by The Uriel. The one who killed firs borns and seven plagues of Egypt. He rebelled and changed his nature, his will to the point that he made himself for the opposite purpose he was for. Lucifer fearing a fellow Archangel in Hell banished him to the mortal plane.

Our current Uriel inherited the mantle and as the youngest Archangel can interact with particular humans more readily then the others can (which I imagine they're jealous about). Anduriels true goal therefore isn't the fight against Outsiders but to be released from his coin, back to his former glory and beyond. Which I suspect he originally didn't want competition from Outsiders, but by the end of the series will use them to further his goals betraying Nicodemus and his own nature once and for all.

Lasciel:Etymology:
Latin, lascivus (wanton) + Hebrew, El (God). 
"Wanton(ness) of God"   
Etymology:
Latin, lascivious (lustful) + Hebrew, El (God). 
"Lustfulness of God"   
DF Title:
"Seducer", "Webweaver", "Temptress"   
Sigil:
"Reminiscent of an hourglass"   
Combat Form:
"her clothing just . . . dissolved, like so much smoke, into a clinging, purplish mist that drifted around her in spiraling tendrils— not so much for modesty as for accent, yet for the most part, covering her most delicate parts with the same coyness as a fan dancer’s feathers."   
Status of Coin:
Inactive (in Underworld of Hades)   
Known Hosts:
Hannah Ascher   
Lore Refs:
Possibly a thematic reference to the Babylonian goddess Ishtar.  Ishtar seduced and destroyed many lovers before being rejected by the hero Gilgamesh, who she then attempted to murder.  Ishtar was slain in the Underworld after removing her clothes to pass through the gates and becoming enraged.  (Later resurrected, when all sexual activity on Earth stopped in her absence.)   
Lore Refs:
Sigil may be reference to a woman-as-spider/seducer motif, relating title of "Webweaver" to a black widow's thorax.

Now bear with me cause this ones slightly thinner. Lashiel is again a spy master though in choosing her own nature she was careful to select Webweaver and a spider as her sigil. Spider is also a term of a spymaster. But Webweaver has also enough nuance of definition to apply to magic as well. Weave a spell together was often done by weaving silk or needles in myth and folklore and was a basis of witchcraft.

In addition several myths of Lucifer's fall attribute it to his falling in love or atleast in lust depending on the version with a woman. In some versions she's a fellow angel, in others she's a demon in many of the original myths she was among the humans that the Grigori fell for. It's literally where the term falling in love comes from. Falling from the heavens from God's grace because you are so enraptured with love for a human. In any case in most modern adaption this figure Lucifer fell for is often Identified with Lilith- Adams first wife and according to some Lucifers first conversion into a demon.

I believe Jim took inspiration from these myths and created a sympathetic version of Lilith within the Dresden Files. I don't believe she was necessarily an Archangel but according to woj. She was one of the ones sitting on the fence during the rebellion possibly in part because of her torn love between God and Lucifer.

Finally lets look at Lucifer himself.

Lucifer:Non-DF Etymology:
Lucifer.  Latin, Lux (light) + Ferrous (bearing).
"Light-bearing" or "Lightbringer".
Non-literal: "Morningstar", "Daystar", "Shining One", "Shining Star."   
Non-DF Etymology:
Satan.  Hebrew, Satan.
"Adversary".   
Non-DF Etymology:
Samael.  Hebrew, Sama'el.
"Venom of God".   
Warden John Marcone
DF Title:
"The Dark Prince", "The Prince of Fucking Darkness", "Father of Lies", "Darkest Shadow"   
Warden John Marcone, Griffyn612, wizard nelson, peregrine
Lore Refs:
Fallen archangel or angel in most Judeo-Christian religious traditions.  Jinn in Islamic traditions.   
Lore Refs:
Samael is regarded as a different entity, an archangel of death, in most contemporary sources.

ok note the bolded, underlined and italics section. Lux (light) Ferrous (Bearing). LightBearing. lets just switch them around a bit like Lasciel did in Dead Beat and create another anagram FerrousLux another word for Lux or Light by the way is Fax. FerrousFax= Ferrofax. = Mr. Ferro = One of the Last true remaining Dragons = Lucifer and Sammael are often both equated as serpents who can fly with the gift of fire= Dragon. Capital D.

oh and also Michael Carpenter is clearly Michael the Archangel made human as a reward so he can have a righteous life on earth with a family he loves and cares for.

512
DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: September 30, 2017, 06:47:25 AM »
Personally I think the Archive is flawed at best. Oral History works, sometimes even better than written history. Written history languages change, translations get changed people argue over minute nuance of meaning of a single word that can change the entire text. Think of your favourite song as a kid and think about how everytime that song comes on you find yourself singing to the words even though you had no conscious knowledge of having memorised it. It's muscle memory in your brain.

 Oral History is exactly like that it's the reason we know Homer's works so well. The reason why in my own country aboriginal dreamtime stories remember a time when the world was covered in ICE. They live in Australia people this is from tribes who haven't seen ice for centuries in the middle of the desert or rainforest. The description matches. Admittedly a lot of that knowledge of history and culture died out particularly in the last two centuries or so. But how the hell would the Archive know which Old Dark Gods of Aboriginal legends are still around. They haven't been written down ever to begin with and arguably this makes them more powerful as they are harder to forget well unless humanity forgets the tribe that remembers them of course.

513
DF Spoilers / Re: Blackstaff and the Hat
« on: September 29, 2017, 03:57:43 AM »
What about Carlos term "the Black Hats"...

514
DF Spoilers / Re: Best adaptions of myth and folklore
« on: September 29, 2017, 03:56:38 AM »
snorts* touche Rasins. To clarify I meant the ore traditional definition of myth and folklore. Of mythological and supernatural creatures stories that have become tradition in relation to their cultures.

515
DF Spoilers / Re: Best adaptions of myth and folklore
« on: September 28, 2017, 10:32:23 AM »
Yeah sure Jonas I don't mind

516
DF Spoilers / Re: "Conjure by it at your own risk."
« on: September 28, 2017, 07:06:53 AM »
I love WOJ's they're so tantilising and I would even speculate they're more reliable than Dresden's thoughts as they come straight from the creator. Take Demonreach for example. Harry was wrong about that. I even count the RPG booklets towards WOJ's, they give great background info on the characters as well as give you a rough comparison of powers and abilities. Even though the Maths does my head in.

517
DF Spoilers / Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« on: September 28, 2017, 06:57:53 AM »
Nice foreshadowing. I'd forgotten about Harry speculating Bob might want to concieve, but I think it was just an example of Harry's subconscious trying to get Harry to consider the idea as he was already pregnant.

ID Harry confirms Bonnea's conception was the act of love taking a bullet for Harry psychicly and that Harry able to play the guitar perfectly was a symptom of Bonnea's presence.

518
DF Spoilers / Re: "Conjure by it at your own risk."
« on: September 28, 2017, 05:00:21 AM »

Me too, I tend to seek simple explanations.

But then we don't get to WAG!

519
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Dresden
« on: September 28, 2017, 04:59:31 AM »
I think it's a stretch to say most of Mab's subjects aren't interested in humans, as most of the nastier ones seem to feed on human suffering and death. Summer and Winter are as much a balance to each other as Denarians and Knights of the Cross.

520
DF Spoilers / Re: Best adaptions of myth and folklore
« on: September 28, 2017, 04:46:04 AM »
I enjoy Grimm it just has the problem of a few supernatural tv shows of finding reasons not to kill off characters.

Death on Supernatural is... pretty pathetic in practicality as Death personifications go, so many characters keep being brought back to life. However he is intimidating. The scene where they entrap him in a circle reminds me of Harry in Dead Beat with the Erlking.

Raging Rudolph was amusing if slightly sickening

521
DF Spoilers / Re: "Conjure by it at your own risk."
« on: September 28, 2017, 04:32:41 AM »
You know I wonder if it has to do with Harry being Warden, and you ending up on DR if you conjure his name.  Perhaps he shares a connection with Alfred that grants a layer of protection.

I wouldn't doubt it's something similar to that effect. Certainly the Warden would need some sort of protection from evil primordial beings. Otherwise how would he be capable of capturing them and bringing them to Demonreach.

Plus Mab as the Queen Bee fighter of Outsiders, might give her key champion some protection against them.

Plus Soulfire from Uriel who is himself damn near close to a Primordial being.

Plus.. you know... STarborn. Definition of a magic user who can fight against Outsiders.

522
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Dresden
« on: September 28, 2017, 04:29:18 AM »
I think Evil actions are in the actions themselves not in an ends justif the means scenario, where oh all of the horrible torture and murder Mab does is because she fights Outsiders. That's the exact same argument Nicodemus uses.

How is one evil less evil than the other?

Judge a person by their actions first, their friends second and their enemies third. Mab's actions are torture and murder. Her friends/subjects are torturers and murders. Her enemies in addition to Outsiders include the much more benevolent Summer Court (not saying they're holey good, but certainly better than Winter).

Why is Mab anymore "Good type of Evil" than Nicodemus.

People's main argument is that Lasciel is less predictable than Mab. Personally I disagree. Harry already motivated and moved one supposedly immutable being the Shadow who wasn't supposed to have any choice, why not another?

I'm not saying he would have necessarily succeeded but I think he'd have a better shot with Lasciel then Mab. Mainly because Harry has Uriel on one shoulder who would be a much more direct counter point to Lasciel than Mab.

523
DF Spoilers / Best adaptions of myth and folklore
« on: September 28, 2017, 04:20:09 AM »
Ok so I'm not going to make a poll yet as they're are too many to count, but personally I'm going to go with Rise of the Guardians.

Russian Warrior Santa with tattoos was brilliant.

Aussie Easter Bunny was good too, cause we do have a lot of rabbits. Though farmers hate them.

Sandman and tooth Faerie were Brilliant too.

Anyone else think Pitch Black would make for the perfect Outsider like Nemesis?

Jack Frost himself was great as a Canadian and counter point with the other northern figure of Russian Santa.

Santa's Yeti bodyguards and minion elves were great too. I want to apply it to the dresden verse and have Kringle have a Fae army of Yeti's and Svartalves in a toy factory fortress. He's the counter point to the Erlking and his Goblin army so it'd make sense.

Anyway what's your favourite modern adpation of myth and folklore. Other than Dresdenfiles. Special mention to Once Upon a Time.

524
DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: September 28, 2017, 04:16:37 AM »
Ah I have heard of spring-heeled jack but only in passing on The Sanctuary.

Disney'll make a movie of it and revive it just like they did with Jack Frost in Guardians.

Love that movie. Gonna make a new topic about best adaptions of myth and folklore.

525
DF Spoilers / Re: "Conjure by it at your own risk."
« on: September 28, 2017, 03:43:11 AM »
I think part of it is when you someone someone by their true name, you have to have the will to dominate them in order to require them to be summoned. That's why Mother Winter was offended and needed to test Harry to see if he had the will to fight against her will. Similarly Vadderung had to demoonstrate to Harry in Changes he didn't have the Will necessary to challenge the Lords of the Outer Night as was. Yet he was able to with the full power of Winter Behind him.

Harry has gotten to the point where he is able to defy his will against just about anybody and anything. Except possible Uriel and even thats coming close by his fear during Ghost Story at the nickname.

Naming someone requires power over them. Harry has will power a plenty. Starborn, Soulfire, Winter Knight, Warden. Shark Face had to repsond to Harry's challenge of will power and reveal his own name demonstrating that Harry won that battle of Wills.

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