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Messages - nadia.skylark

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481
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Council had tried to execute Molly in Proven Guilty...
« on: April 02, 2019, 01:35:50 AM »
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And leave an untrained magically active kid to learn on her own? Harry is wise enough to know that if she doesn't get proper training she is likely to become corrupted by the power - especially given that she had already started down a particular road that is paved with good intentions. Molly's only good chance was to be trained by Harry, Eb, or someone similar.

Well, I agree it's not ideal, but neither is Molly having her head cut off.

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Yes. That's exactly why Harry doesn't take up the coin when Lash offers it before running Little Chicago. She poses the same exact dilemma you're doing now, and Harry refuses.

Fair enough. I usually try to pretend that this scene doesn't exist, because it feels so OoC for Lash.

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This is poor reasoning. You're saying that Jim left a huge gaping hole in his story because he was originally planning on a different order, and just didn't make the continuity work out. No. He clearly established why Harry wasn't using Lash to do any death-defying feats.

No, I'm saying that Jim left out a couple of sentences wherein Lash offers to help if needed and Harry refuses, but is left uneasy, wondering what he would do if the Council refused to listen. If he actually took up the coin, it would have been in the middle of the pitched battle that didn't happen. Lash would have done her slowing-down-subjective-time trick and hit Harry over the head with the fact that Molly was going to die, he promised he would do everything he could to save her, what was it going to do to Michael to come back and find his daughter dead, was Harry really going to fail him, etc. And it might not have worked, but it also might have, I think.

482
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
« on: April 02, 2019, 01:27:53 AM »
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The importance of free will is the moral choice. A coin holder has to abandon the coin as a condition of repenting. That doesn't mean failing to repent is a guarantee you get to keep the coin.

I'm not sure about that. I'm pretty sure that free will is about more than just moral choices--in the books it's stated to be a separate thing that only mortals have. Also, given that we've never seen anyone lose a coin who didn't either choose to give it up or die first, I don't think we can just assume that the coins have One Ring-like powers of escaping their hosts whenever it's convenient. Otherwise, they'd be forever falling out of people's pockets when people tried to contain them, and we've seen that they don't do that.

483
DF Spoilers / Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« on: April 02, 2019, 01:22:13 AM »
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When does Harry reveal to Nicodemus that there is a traitor within the ranks of Denarians? I believe it is after the attempt on Ivy, right?

Just before then, actually. It was during their conversation in the Shedd.

484
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
« on: April 01, 2019, 09:55:04 PM »
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Or the coin would just abandon it's holder and escape before the holder was imprisoned.

Can they do that? Given the importance of free will, I would think that the holder would have to choose to release the coin for that to happen.

485
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Council had tried to execute Molly in Proven Guilty...
« on: April 01, 2019, 09:53:44 PM »
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No. Let's presume Harry could be persuaded that Lasciel's knowledge would enable him to save Molly and escape. What is life like after that? He's on the run from the White Council with an untrained apprentice. He would recognize is only chance of surviving long term would be to sign up with the Denarians. That means he would be joining the bad guys and bringing Molly over to the bad guys. He would not sacrifice Molly's soul in order to save her life.

He could also get out of there, then give Molly to Father Forthill/Michael to hide.

486
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Harry have awoken something?
« on: April 01, 2019, 08:59:52 PM »
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The Fomorians are in many more places than Chicago...where do they mention Aztec gods coming back?

It's in the Paranet Papers RPG book. It's not canon, I know, but it's such a cool idea that I choose to believe that it's true in the books as well, even if it isn't mentioned.

487
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Council had tried to execute Molly in Proven Guilty...
« on: April 01, 2019, 08:58:09 PM »
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No. Harry's proven several times that he would rather die than succumb to that power, and especially in Proven Guilty.

He'd rather die, yes. But would he rather allow innocents to die? That's why he started working with Lasciel's shadow in the first place, after all--it was the only way to save innocent lives.

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Besides, if Dresden suddenly had to fight all the assembled White Council at the end of Proven Guilty, I'm not sure that even Lasciel would have been able to save anyone.
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If he had, I doubt it would have worked.

I don't believe it would be enough to let him win, no. But it might have been enough to, for example, shield him and Molly well enough to open a Way to the Nevernever and make a run for it, or create illusions of him and Molly good enough to fool the assembled wizards, veil them, and sneak out the back.

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Presumably, Lash knows this, which is why she doesn't use it as an opportunity.

Personally, I think that Lash doesn't make that offer here because she's not particularly well integrated into the story in this book. Proven Guilty was supposed to be before Dead Beat, after all, and in my opinion the Lash storyline shows it. (Except for the end conversation with Michael. That was excellent.)

488
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Harry have awoken something?
« on: April 01, 2019, 02:34:40 PM »
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Isn't that the Fomorians?? Aren't they supposed to be trying to move into the vaccum left by the Reds?

The Fomorians are the major problem in the books. However, the books take place in Chicago, and Aztec gods coming back would be doing so in Central America.

489
DF Spoilers / If the Council had tried to execute Molly in Proven Guilty...
« on: April 01, 2019, 01:17:01 PM »
Would Harry have called Lasciel's coin to keep her (or Michael) safe?

490
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Harry have awoken something?
« on: March 31, 2019, 06:20:39 PM »
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I wouldn't be surprised at the Reds directly suppressing or containing some kind of big nasty. There's plenty of precedent that the monsters don't like competition in the DV.

I'm not sure about Old Ones, but the RPG suggested that the Lords of Outer Night had trapped some of the Aztec gods and were drinking their blood to gain power--and that now that the vamps were gone, the gods were beginning to return to the world.

491
DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife
« on: March 30, 2019, 04:15:19 PM »
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His coin with the Fallen within, keeps him alive. It seems counter intuitive.

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It's hard to say.  Deirdre was enough of a true believer to sacrifice her life for the cause.  It's possible Nic is as well.

Given that Nicodemus is enough of a fanatic to sacrifice his daughter, I figure he's enough of a fanatic to be willing to die himself.

Alternately, he could have been planning to use the grail or shroud to prevent himself from aging and dying.

Or he could just free 29 of the Fallen and keep Anduriel. They work together well enough that Anduriel might not mind.

492
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
« on: March 26, 2019, 08:17:05 PM »
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Michael says so, Sanya doesn't seem to be entirely in agreement. Who do we trust?

You'll also note that Sanya does not act contrary to what Michael says, even if he occasionally needs Michael reminding him what their jobs actually are.

I'd feel differently if I ever saw Sanya not saving Denarians and instead killing them (outside a pitched battle. Once the fighting starts, the Knights seem to have more leeway).

493
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
« on: March 26, 2019, 07:15:24 PM »
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No.....  If this were the case killing them would not be an option, and it is.  Michael wasn't out there searching for Denarian's to save.  He went out there by TWG's directive and fought baddies of all kinds.  When he faced Denarian's he gave them the option to repent.

If the job of the Knight was to save the Denarian's he would have been out a lot more trying to save them when in fact the majority of the time he wasn't even fighting them but other things. Outsiders, vampires, demon's, ghosts, and a Dragon are just some examples of his missions.


Again, they don't seek them out to help them.  I don't recall a single time that a Knight's only objective was to locate a Denarian for the sole purpose of saving them.  In every case I can remember it was because the Denarian was doing something bad, and the Knight showed up to #1 stop them from doing it, #2 save the person if possible.  The first objective has always been to stop the Denarian.

Um...no, actually, you're wrong. Michael says so.

Small Favor:
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Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen." 

494
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
« on: March 26, 2019, 05:32:26 PM »
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The difference for Marcone and Ivy is that they chose to act with their free will.  And as such they are victims to their choices.  TWG can't interfere.

How did Marcone and Ivy choose to act with their free will in any way that is meaningfully different than the actions that every person with free will takes?

Also, free will doesn't make it impossible for TWG to interfere, it just makes Him have to be more circumspect. For example, when Michael leaves his kids alone in the house in Grave Peril, he is making the free-willed choice to do so. This does not prevent Father Forthill's car from "coincidentally" breaking down nearby so that there will be someone to watch over Michael's kids.

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No, for a couple reasons:
1.  The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.

The coins, yes. The coin holders, no. That's the part that I think might be a problem.

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2.  The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them.  They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them.  If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices.

No, the job of the Knights is explicitly to save the Denarians--stopping them from hurting people is what they do when they fail to save them.

Also, they picked up the coin by their own choices, so we know that "they made a choice" is not necessarily going to release the Knights from their responsibility to help them.

495
DF Spoilers / Re: If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
« on: March 25, 2019, 12:53:47 AM »
...I'm not sure what you're saying, here.

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