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Messages - nadia.skylark

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451
DF Spoilers / Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« on: April 09, 2019, 01:09:41 AM »
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You could absolutely be right that the same entity whispered those words, but I don't think it was Uriel. In Ghost Story, Uriel inspired the 7 words, but he couldn't have actually been the entity speaking them, because the first word was "Lies." Mab wasn't lying, she was just wrong. She can't lie and Uriel knows that. Thus, for Uriel to say Mab was lying would make him a liar. I don't think he can lie either. That means some other entity must have spoken the actual words as the proxy of Uriel.

Not necessarily. Here is the definition of "lie" I found:
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lie
noun
1.an intentionally false statement.
"the whole thing is a pack of lies"

2.used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.
"all their married life she had been living a lie"

If the seven words were using the second definition of "lie" then Uriel is in the clear to say them. We have a WoJ that Mab could say that she could change Harry because she believed it to be the case, given her past experience with Winter Knights. Thus, Uriel was just saying that her claim was founded on a mistaken impression, which indeed it was.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Exposure to Magic?
« on: April 05, 2019, 11:35:54 PM »
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Their level of exposure is very different. Little Harry being exposed to magic once literally the night he was born -- i.e., when he's more or less fully developed -- is not nearly the same thing as Molly being exposed to it regularly throughout pregnancy from conception through early development.

This.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Exposure to Magic?
« on: April 05, 2019, 08:13:50 PM »
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It may be true that the half vampire nature of the mother may not have a "magical" effect on Maggie because it is nonmortal (more on that later), but don't forget the magical tattoos on Susan.  Every time those activated there may have been significant mortal magic active on Susan, plus we don't know what other exposures Susan might have experienced while pregnant - e.g. staying inside warded homes or sanctuaries, etc. that might influence the standing magic level the fetus was exposed to.

True. We know that if Maggie has magic, her mother being half-vampire will influence it because there's a WoJ saying so.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?
« on: April 05, 2019, 05:50:18 PM »
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That was noted as clever and unusual precisely because Margaret Le Fey got around the restriction that the curse should not have lasted past her death.

Typically death curses are one-shots, likely because enchantments can't normally survive the caster's death (or sunrise/sunset). Cassius' death-curse is arguably a counter-example, but I still consider that a one-shot. It only takes effect once - at Harry's death. Cassius wasn't able to curse Harry to "live alone," because that would be an ongoing effect that would need to be sustained.

As I remember it, it was noted as unusual because it was a sustained effect at all, rather than because it survived her death. It's mentioned in one of the short stories that successive sunrises wear down spells, so that they have to be periodically renewed.

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Honestly, the RPG probably has the answer to this question.

No. Well, sort of. An enthrallment spell, according to the RPG, can work in one of two ways. The first way is that it inflicts consequences, which fade in a certain amount of time after something has been done to start the healing process. The other way is to put enough power into the spell to take somebody out (fill up all their stress, and frequently all their consequences) which allows you to rewrite one or more of their aspects (which define essential aspects of one's character). You can change your aspects, but you need a good in-universe reason to do so. For the first type, killing the caster might be considered a reason to justify beginning to recover from consequences, but it's not mentioned explicitly in the RAW, so it would depend on what individual groups decide. For the second type, killing the caster probably wouldn't be enough to justify changing the aspect, or if it was the aspect would probably be changed to something equally problematic relating to the enthrallment...but it's not explicitly mentioned in the RAW, so it would depend on what individual groups decide.

The RPG likes leaving things up in the air.

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The way I think it works is, enthrallment isn't an effect stemming continuously from the caster -- it's an effect you place on the person being enthralled. One that, effectively, rewrites or changes something in their mind to make them obey you.

So, to my thinking, it's not, "While under the effects of this ongoing spell, you will obey me," but "I'm altering your brain so that you will obey me."

This makes a lot of sense.

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at the very least, Arctis Tor and onward would need to be altered fundamentally. If Molly goes on the run with Harry, then Charity should die getting her away from Eldest Fetch, for instance, and both the Council and Lasciel would need to have a much more significant presence in the book. I mean, without, for example, Harry witnessing Charity sacrifice her life (or something equally troubling) to preserve Molly's life, do you think he'd actually use a Denarian's power to save Michael's daughter? He already feels too ashamed of himself to even speak to Michael, and that's just from having a Shadow.

This would be a great addition!

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Denarian Harry just wouldn't be terribly interesting to me. The only ongoing element that I'd like to see from that perspective is a deeper look into Nicodemus's plan (when taking Denarian Harry down its logical plot). But that would necessarily eliminate or reduce the importance of the other ongoing plots—the Red Court war, the Black Council and White Council politics, Harry's relationship with Thomas, the Alphas, Murphy... if Harry's on the run, Chicago isn't really a viable setting anymore, and that would be too big of a change, I think.

Not necessarily. I believe I proposed two theories where Harry gets a lot more involved with the war with the Red Court, either by hiding in South America and working with the Fellowship or by making a bargain with Lily and contributing to the war that way. In either case, you could have covert Council interaction through his allies, and then have Harry brought back into dealing with Black Council infiltration via Morgan (either Morgan decides to die by blowing up as much of the Red Court as he can manage and runs into Harry that way, or he runs into Harry when he goes to cash in his favor from Summer). In addition, I proposed a theory where Thomas still has sporadic contact with Harry, and Harry goes back to Chicago to deal with the plot of White Night and ends up bonding with Demonreach much earlier, at which point he can live there at least part time. It would put Harry somewhat in the same position Molly was in Ghost Story, where Carlos knows he's there but pretends not to, so you could explore more of the way the Council is fragmenting. It would also involve moving a lot of the post-Changes character development and interaction earlier, which I think works well--having all of it happening when it does in the books means we don't get to see it explored as much as I would like, because so much else is happening. Harry could also get more involved with Red Court and Black Council things purely through the Denarian angle, since Nicodemus has indicated that he's against both.

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That said, nadia.skylark, if that's the kind of plot you're into, then check out the Alex Verus series by Benedict Jacka, if you haven't already. He's one of a handful of urban fantasy writers who I read regularly; though he does take some cues from Jim Butcher (and gives him a hat tip in Book One), it's very much its own tone, style, and cast, with a lead protagonist that's simultaneously outmatched and completely overpowered.

I've read it, and it's awesome!

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No.  I'm saying that in any reasonable world, you don't change the last act without changing what came before.  Proven Guilty moves to the end after multiple chapters of setup.  The book sets up the conclusion so that Molly can return home to her family and reconcile with her mother. The book is a puzzle and you've introduced a piece that doesn't fit.

There can be a story where your idea works, but not Proven Guilty.  Or at least not without a significant rewrite. 

Yeah, I'm sorry, but I just don't see this. Maybe it's just because I'm not looking at the books as discrete entities so much as chapters in an ongoing story, but to me this seems like a natural extension of the "problems with the Council" thread that's been running through the books. I do agree, however, that changing some things earlier in the book would make it flow more smoothly. For example, if I was going to write this story, I would have Lasciel, in her first appearance right after the warlock is executed, say something like "I wonder, my host, if the black magic is coming from an actual threat or a child that knows no better--not that the Council would care, of course" and have Harry spend a few minutes trying and mostly failing to deny it. Then I would move the conversation where Harry tells Michael about Lasciel to before Michael leaves, when he says he trusts Harry to protect his family, and have Harry add a line about how it's hard to justify ignoring Lash completely when drawing on her is occasionally the only way to save innocent lives. I'd also have Harry put more stress on the fact that when he and Rawlings (sp?) are captured, he can't let Rawlings get killed. I'd also move Harry's conversation with Ebenezer about the Black Council to the beginning of the book.

...On second thought, I do see what you mean. I'm just so used to reading fanfiction and coming up with my own ideas for it (even if I never write them) that I rewrote some stuff in my head. That said, I don't think there would need to be any particularly major changes for this to work.

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The plot as stated was to keep Molly from being Proven Guilty.  Serving that plot would be a change that achieves the same endpoint. 

So what you're saying is that the plot is only served if the good guys win. I disagree with this.

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If you want to write a book called Harry goes on the Lamb with Molly, that's well and good.  In your book he would lose both sources of his income, his business and his warden paycheck.  Making Harry and Molly homeless, not to mention under a sentence of death.  Not a good place to be in for a teacher or a student.  I assume Murphy would take his pets and clean out his apartment.  Harry has so much junk at the hacienda.  Swords, skulls and LC.  At least his landlady won't get burned out.

Actually, one's been written: Fight and Flight by TheRedPoet. You can find it at Archive of our Own. You should read it. It's really good! I just wish it had more Lasciel in it (the premise is that Harry does a runner when he realizes that the Merlin has 6 votes, rather than my suggestion of him picking up Lasciel's coin). Things work out fairly well for Molly, actually--Harry doesn't have a job, so with nothing to distract him he notices how much of a problem her sensitivity is an works out how to train her how to deal with it.

458
DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife
« on: April 05, 2019, 04:07:34 AM »
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Not for lack of trying.

I remain unconvinced that she was trying.

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Yeah, and then he spent the next approximately two millennia as part of Christian mythology.

True, but given that he's well aware that the gods are real, I don't consider this an adequate reason to have neglected to realize how Hades works--if he was a bit unclear as to the detail after such a long time, he should have had the sense to check. You can find books of Greek/Roman mythology at any library, after all, and Nic had to have done a bunch of research to be able to break into Hades vault on top of that.

I'm fairly convinced that either A) Nicodemus knew exactly what he was condemning his daughter to (even if he wasn't too happy to have his nose rubbed in it) and thought it was worth the cost, or B) Anduriel muddled with his brain a bit.

459
DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife
« on: April 05, 2019, 02:54:51 AM »
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Is not eternal damnation bad enough to want to avoid it?

Except she didn't avoid it.

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And perhaps Nic was just so focused on avoiding judgement from TWG that he was blinded by the other possible consequences.

I'd like to think that he's a little smarter than that. After all, Roman mythology was the religion he grew up surrounded by.

460
DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife
« on: April 05, 2019, 02:14:36 AM »
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Plus, would Anduriel need Nicodemus if it was free of the coin?  I'm thinking probably not.  The Fallen might be more effective with a human host like Nicodemus, but most of them wouldn't see it that way

I think Anduriel probably would, though, given the nature of his relationship to Nicodemus.

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and I doubt Nic would trust letting any of them out of their coins.

Why? Nicodemus is on their side.

461
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Personally I feel like if Harry had gotten desperate he'd most likely have tossed Lily his shiny new pin and been like "Favour: get us out of here!"

Then Lily Nevernever's him and Molly to, I dunno, China or something and they go on the run.

That's a good point!

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Now, might he have called on Lasciel if he were cornered and it came down to a fight? Perhaps. He's been tempted before. But I don't think so. It would take a lot to make him that desperate, and as much as he wanted to save Molly (and if possible himself) I don't know that he'd go that far just yet.

Yeah, I figure the odds of him doing it are something like 30-40% at most. I just really want to read a longer story where Harry takes up Lasciel's coin, and I think this is a better starting place for it than White Night (by that point, picking up a coin would mean killing Lash (who Harry seems to care about)).

Seriously, I can only remember three fanfics that have Harry picking up Lasciel's coin, and while they're excellent, one is a fairly short one-shot, one appears to have been abandoned, and one seems to update super-slowly (if it's not abandoned too) and Harry only picked up the coin at the end of what's posted. 

462
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You are misrembering. 

You're right. My bad.

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I didn't ask you how the plot would change, I asked you how the plot was served.  The plot was a quest to save Molly. Here was the promise to Charity. Molly forever a fugitive and almost certainly a warlock seems to not fulfill that promise.

I'll be honest here, I don't get what you're saying. Are you saying that the plot only works if Harry succeeds unproblematically? In my scenario, Harry makes an objectively awful choice in order to attempt to fulfill his promise to Charity. This spurs character development, conflict, and new directions for the plot to go, all of which I gave examples of. I'm not sure what you mean by "serving the plot" if it isn't that.

Also, I'm not sure why you think that Molly would "almost certainly [be] a warlock." Harry certainly wouldn't decide to just throw out the laws of magic just because the Council is trying to kill them, and he's probably still her teacher.

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As to would Harry take up the coin.  The question is asked and answered in White Knight.  He refuses to do so even to save the thralls or his allies including his brother.

I had thought that everyone but Harry and Lara had escaped by that point. Am I misremembering?

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When I ask you what is the point, I'm asking you, in effect, how is the plot served?

Some possibilities, in no particular order (not all of these are compatible with each other):

-Molly's plot line would be completely different.
-The Paranet would never have been formed--or maybe it would have been formed partially to work against the White Council? It would depend on how much contact Thomas had with Harry.
-Harry might try to find Elaine and get some advice about hiding from the Council, or he might go to South America since the war would make it much harder for the White Council to track him and Molly down there and find out about Maggie sooner. Maybe he ends up teaching both Molly and Hannah?
-His magic would almost certainly end up an order of magnitude better, between having Lasciel as a teacher and what he'd need to learn to hide from the White Council.
-Chicago would have to cope with losing its protector years earlier, and it wouldn't even have Marcone as a freeholding lord to help--but on the other hand, they wouldn't have the Fomor causing trouble there for years, so they might be in better shape when that happens.
-Nicodemus would know that Harry wasn't in Chicago any more, so the whole "kidnap the Archive" plan wouldn't happen.
-No idea what would happen with the plot of Turn Coat, but probably things turn out a lot worse for the Council--maybe Morgan decides that since there's no one he can go to for help, he might as well go out in a blaze of glory, heads to South America to attack the Red Court, and meets Harry there?
-That's not even getting into the thing with Harry and Lasciel. Maybe instead of actually redeeming Lash, Lasciel pretends that Harry's changing her and Harry has to realize that she's faking it?
-Maybe Harry still bonds with Demonreach because he needs to be in Chicago to stop the White Court killing practitioners, and Lasciel suggests bonding with the island so that he can use it to hide (her motive, of course, is that the Fallen like apocalypses and the island can cause a big one).
-Harry still ends up killing Maeve, but as his second favor to Mab rather than because he's her Knight--maybe in the process he finds out about the war at the Outer Gates and decides to bargain a certain number of favors to Mab in exchange for her stopping the Council from hunting him down, with the understanding that she'll use them for protecting the world from Outsiders.
-Someone who isn't Molly probably ends up winter lady--maybe instead of killing Maeve immediately, Harry traps her on Demonreach for a year while Mab prepares a vessel.
-Chichen Itza is going to be viewed very differently if Harry is working with Lasciel when it happens, given the level of destruction that Harry ends up causing there.
-Michael is going to have some conflict dealing with the fact that Harry picked up Lasciel's coin to save his daughter.
-Harry still screws Nicodemus over in Skin Game, but the entire thing looks like an internal conflict, so Marcone doesn't end up looking good because of it and Mab is still plotting her revenge on Nic. Maybe Harry ends up representing the Denarians in Peace Talks, if only Nic was no longer part of the Accords?
-Maybe Harry ends up learning white necromancy to fight the Red Court, raising the ghosts of their victims against them (Jim has said that Lasciel would be Harry's black magic teacher, and has called what Harry did at the end of Grave Peril "white necromancy"). He would also learn things like Kumori's life-saving trick, and we could watch him slowly slip into using more standard necromancy until someone calls him on it (this could be parallel to Murphy calling Harry on his temper problems in White Night, and could help him realize what Lasciel is doing to him).
-Maybe Harry ends up working for Lily on a semi-regular basis, helping to launch offensives against the Red Court when the rest of Summer is tied up (he already has the Oak Leaf, and he's clearly done at least one job for Lily before. Titania might agree not to interfere on the basis that it would make it more likely for Harry to be killed or captured by the Red Court). If so, he could notice that Maeve could lie much earlier.

Honestly, I just really like Lash even when she was still just a copy of Lasciel, so by extension I figure I would really like getting to see Lasciel and Harry work together (I wasn't fond of Lasciel in Skin Game, but that was when she was working with Hannah).

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What is your point?  What does this scenario accomplish?  If Michael broke the sword he would no longer be a Knight, he would have broken with his faith.  Harry and Molly would be outlaws under a sentence of death assuming that they escaped.

I'm confused. This thread is about whether Harry would take up Lasciel's coin in the hypothetical scenarios postulated here (Michael arrives in the middle of the fight and is losing; Michael does not arrive at all). I think it could go either way. What do you mean "what does this scenario accomplish?"

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In terms of how powerful a ward can be I offer this.

That's why I included this in my response:
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And if they were that strong I would expect Harry to have commented on it, if only in the same way he always comments on it when he's reminded of how strong the Merlin really is.

We've seen several situations where the Merlin does something impossibly difficult, and every time Harry's narration notes it specifically and comments on it. As such, I assume if the Merlin had put up one of his impossible wards on the warehouse, Harry's narration would have commented on it (I know Harry's bad at sensing magic, but I don't think even he could miss a super-ward when he was walking through it).

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DF Spoilers / Re: If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
« on: April 04, 2019, 01:18:26 PM »
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Michael was saying that in the context of Sonja wanting to use the power of the Swords to punish the Fallen.  If the main purpose of the Swords was to save those possessed by the Fallen, it wouldn't be a weapon that's only function is to destroy.

To borrow Michael's words again, "You're making the same mistake Nicodemus did. You think the most important word in 'Sword of Faith' is 'sword.'"

The Swords are wielded by the Knights. We see loads of examples of the Knights helping people or trying to help people rather than just destroying evil.

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Unless anyone can point to an example of one of the Swords doing anything other than destroy whatever enemy that's in the way?

Offhand, Butters' use of Fiddelachius to scare Nicodemus away and help inspire the Squires to repent without doing more than disabling his weapon. Sanya "coincidentally" appearing just in time to save Harry's neighbors from being burned to death. Shiro rescuing Harry from Nicodemus.

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