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Messages - Paviel

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46
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 15, 2018, 08:17:30 PM »
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Morals are not universal. Maybe they should be, and it should be my set of morals of course, but in practice not everybody has the same set but people believe in their own morals above those of everyone else

Arjan is right. The closest thing there is to a universal morality is the Golden Rule, or "Treat others the way you want to be treated." But no two people want to be treated exactly the same way, so even the Golden Rule is not as universal in practice as it sounds in theory.

This is why legislating morality is such a problem; it's necessary to define exactly whose morality. It is quite reasonable, then, for the White Council to decide that the only "morality" they're going to legislate is "Don't make the monsters stronger."

47
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 12, 2018, 06:40:58 PM »
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He wasn't present when it was used -- otherwise he would have known that the Demon was sent to attack Dresden.

He was present very soon after it was used, though.

The question is, did Susan purge every last trace of it from her system in the meantime? If it's as similar to alcohol as Bob suggested, I'd say probably not.

48
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 12, 2018, 06:37:27 PM »
The Three-Eye makes a pretty good point of comparison to the love potion, actually. Harry could tell, without even opening his Sight, that the junkie in the police station had had his mind invaded by the Three-Eye; the love potion's effect on Susan wasn't nearly so harmful.

49
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 12, 2018, 01:24:39 AM »
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A love potion may not directly enter a mind as in going in and reading it..  So in that sense it doesn't violate the Law, however it does alter the drinker's mind and thinking which violates the spirit of the Law.

It doesn't matter what violates the spirit of the Laws of Magic, only the letter.

Otherwise Harry would have been executed for reanimating Sue in Dead Beat.

The Laws of Magic aren't designed to enforce any specific morality, only to mitigate the dangers inherent in specific magical practices. Even the First Law prohibits killing with magic not because killing is wrong, but specifically because using magic to kill is dangerous on a metaphysical level. So too are all of the uses of magic specifically prohibited by the Laws.

Brewing love potions as they exist in the Dresden Files, however, is not.

50
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 08:33:42 PM »
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Getting affirmative consent to look in someone's mind might get the White Council off your back, but that doesn't mean you're not being tainted by the use of black magic.

Isn't that what a Soulgaze is?

I could see some one-way equivalent to a Soulgaze being black magic, but the worst that happens during a regular two-way Soulgaze is that each person gets a good look at the other's soul and can never forget it.

51
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 08:09:23 PM »
I don't think there have ever been any "traditional" love potions in the Dresden Files, have there?

The Third and Fourth Laws might be the reason why not.

52
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 08:00:14 PM »
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The production of the love potion -- and any other potion -- involves using magic. The text is explicit about this.

It uses magic, yes.

That magic does not invade anyone's mind, which is what the Third Law prohibits.

Invading someone's mind would be what Molly did in "Proven Guilty." Love potions don't do that.

53
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 07:56:55 PM »
I'll conceded that Morgan probably didn't know about the love potion.

But as a point of order: The Third Law says "Thou Shalt Not (Use Magic to) Invade the Mind of Another." Neither the production nor the consumption of a love potion violates that law.

54
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 07:36:26 PM »
How could Morgan not have known about the love potion, when his job was to keep tabs on every magical move Harry made?

It's safer to assume, in the absence of evidence that Morgan didn't know about the love potion, that he did.

Or that brewing a love potion isn't a use of magic, and therefore the Laws of Magic don't apply.

55
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 07:29:52 PM »
Fact: Harry Dresden brewed a love potion in Storm Front.

Fact: Morgan never passed up an opportunity to get Harry into trouble as of Storm Front.

Fact: Morgan did not use the fact that Harry had brewed a love potion against him at the end of Storm Front.

Conclusion: Morgan does not consider brewing a love potion to be a violation of the Third Law.

56
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 07:17:59 PM »
Quote from: Mr. Death on July 11, 2018, 07:15:05 PM
Doesn't matter if it's voluntarily taken or not.

Altering someone else's mind is a violation.

Besides, you've never heard of someone drugging someone's drink? Choosing to drink something doesn't mean you willfully and knowingly consent to everything that's in that drink.

The White Council disagrees, or else Morgan would have pressed charges against Harry for every potion he had ever brewed (all of which are mind-altering in some way).

Since the White Council has the sole authority to enforce its laws, and since it does not ban the production or distribution of potions, it follows that potions cannot be against the Third Law.

Immoral? Yes. Illegal? No. The Laws of Magic are not designed to legislate morality.

57
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: July 11, 2018, 07:12:32 PM »
I think the closest that a potion (any potion) could come to violating the Third Law would be by tying someone down and forcing them to drink it. And even then, no magic would have been used in that process, so it might not even count.

Under any other circumstances, consumption of a potion is voluntary, and therefore does not violate the Third Law.

58
DF Spoilers / Re: Think Eb's last name was random?
« on: July 01, 2018, 07:43:49 PM »
The city of Dresden is best known for having been firebombed during World War II, so the name Dresden is also associated with fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

59
DF Spoilers / Re: Zoo Day Spoilers Are the gods watching over Dresden?
« on: June 30, 2018, 04:46:35 PM »
Of course he can interfere indirectly (i.e. influence things), and he takes advantage of every opportunity he gets to do so.

My point is that Uriel couldn't have taken such an active role in Harry's life without TWG's approval, so clearly TWG is watching over Harry too.

60
DF Spoilers / Re: Zoo Day Spoilers Are the gods watching over Dresden?
« on: June 27, 2018, 01:07:15 PM »
Uriel, at least, doesn't interfere directly with Harry because he can't.

Well, except for that one time that Lasciel cheated in Ghost Story. And that one time that Michael volunteered to help Harry in Skin Game.

It probably comes down to the fact that those who have greater power have greater limitations on how and when they can use that power. (e.g. Don't interfere with the free will of vanilla mortals.)

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