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Messages - Griffyn612

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226
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's Power Base
« on: November 20, 2020, 12:56:51 AM »
We don't know that. All we know is that he transferred to Chicago around BR.
We know he was a cop working on Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras, where he arrested Murphy's sister, and ended up dating her. He then transferred to Chicago and became a Feeb, and was brought in by the detective on the Splattercon!!! deaths.

227
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's Power Base
« on: November 18, 2020, 02:11:14 PM »
I know this seems even less likely, but there's also Rick/Rich/Dick to consider when discussing FBI agents in Chicago.  He wasn't a feeb at the start of the series, but he is by Proven Guilty.  So we've got Rick and Tilly in Chicago. Neither likely have any connections to Marcone pre-Changes, but what about after?

Both have worked cases with supernatural elements. One is the ex of the former head is SI, so he's probably heard some things. Tilly lived them.

Might have either been tapped for a federal version of the SI unit? And with Marcone now swinging weight in that arena, might they have to deal with him?

228
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's Power Base
« on: November 17, 2020, 08:58:02 PM »
I won't say say your wrong,  but when Harry comes on the first murder scene one of the Marcone's body guards.  We know that belted Denton and his buds were responsible for that to pin it on MacFinn. The F.B.I. were brought in to investigate the "lobo murders."  So it could have been just a coincidence.  MacFinn seemed to be the real target.
Sure. But the Lobo murders started with some street thugs, a woman, and some more randos, before hitting Marcone's business man and then his bodyguard.  Denton & Co. were killing people, and then got themselves attached to the case as soon as it came in.  That all makes sense with what the story said. 

But Marcone was the target.  Denton admitted as much when he said he was tired of Marcone & Co. getting away with stuff.  Someone gave him the belts, and told him about MacFinn, and told him about the supernatural community.  Denton's plan was to build a scapegoat for both the FBI (it's a bad deal with MacFinn the business man!) and the magical community (it's MacFinn the werewolf!) and Marcone would be dead and no-one would need to look into anything more. 

If all the casefiles are as similar as we suspect, then Beltboy picking a random person like Denton to sick on Marcone doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  The Nemesis method is to get people that are close to the target to turn.  Lea to get Mab.  Aurora to kill the Summer Knight and cause chaos. Kravos to get revenge on Harry.  Vitto to get Lara.  Madeline to get Lara.  The plot always seems to be to use their pre-existing issues to facilitate their fall. 

So it would make sense that Beltboy approached someone that knew Marcone and already had hang-ups about him.  And from what we've seen of Marcone, do we really think he's going to let a random squad of FBI agents onto his property in some crazy attempt to save his life from werewolves?  It seems much more likely that Marcone would thank him for the tip and tell him he'd handle it on his own.  But if he had prior knowledge and dealings with Denton, then maybe thought he'd taken the measure of the man?

229
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's Power Base
« on: November 17, 2020, 04:41:37 PM »
Honestly, the whole Denton thing in Fool Moon might support this.  He talks about how he's had "too many years of seeing men like Marcone laugh at the law." Murphy knows of him and knows him quasi-well enough to know he "is an asshole, but he does his job".

Could Denton have been more than just a local Feeb that got twisted by the belts?  Could he have been a liaison between the FBI and Marcone?  We know Marcone went from street level enforcer to mob boss pretty quickly.  It wouldn't be that surprising if the feds backed him a little in order to stabilize the mob scene in Chicago, with caveats about who Marcone would sell to.

It would certainly explain why Denton was chosen. Let's face it, for the belt-gifter to know someone in the FBI that's close enough to being pushed over and willing to target Marcone seems like a stretch without Nemesis or someone having insight into the people.  But if Denton was targeted because he worked with Marcone, and a natural resentment was stoked, then it would make sense.

230
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 16, 2020, 05:24:03 PM »
Is that a WOJ?  Or did I miss something in the books or short stories?  Because I don't reading that, so which story is it from?  Harry describes the inside of Lord Raith as exactly what "empty night" is, so did Margaret wipe out his Hunger Demon, that is why he cannot feed, leave nothing?  But that would seemingly contradict what Lara said about like Thomas, Lord Raith's Hunger Demon was consuming him.
You're describing the magical feeling that Harry got when his magic hit the void around Lord Raith.  But that's been pretty well established, between Eb's comments and WoJ, to be a unique protection situation for Lord Raith.

The things I'm describing, with the demon being a creature of light, is from the soulgaze with Thomas.  We see Thomas's demon in the mirror, and it's described as having glowing eyes and skin.  Just like we see of their hosts when they tap their power. 

231
I don't know. I think the fact that we've learned that Alfred can release parts of prisoners is potentially relevant to this conversation.

Look, everyone knows I'm a big fan of 'Demonreach is fueled by archangelic Grace'.  But if not, then there has to be a source of magical energy to fuel Alfred's wards and defenses, right?

So is it theoretically possible that Alfred is 'releasing' a percentage of each inmate's magical power, and Alfred is distilling it into a non-evil source of energy that he can use to power the prison and its defenses?  And the leftover energy (likely the bulk of it because the extraction process likely isn't efficient) is what's creating the dark ley line?

If that's so, then couldn't there theoretically be a scenario where Demonreach creates a tap for Harry? It'd release a ton of dark energy into the ley line, but allow him to tap a pure source of energy to use?  Either for a massive spell, or a Darkhallow, or something along those lines?

I'm not saying it's likely, but it seems like it's not outside the realm of possibility.

232
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 16, 2020, 05:01:58 PM »
There are clue going either way.  Sure, Lord Raith knew summoning spells for Behind. Sure, the appearance of the white court demon's mirror world was a place of bones, which a similar ascetic to that of the landscape just outside the Gates, where there mountains of bones.

But there's also the fact that Mab is willing to try to liaison with the Wamps. Surely with all the resources at her and everyone else's disposal, they'd know of a fundamental connection between the Wamps and the Outsiders.  And in their natural form (as seen in the mirror), Wamp demons are beings of *light*.  They glow, head to toe.  That seems to go against the Outsider all-darkness-no-light ascetic of Empty Night.

233
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 07, 2020, 11:58:58 PM »
I don't know. So far abrahamic powers (even Fallen ones) seems to trump any others, including Ethniu and her fine armour - and her reaction for both Sword!Angel and Namshiel point out to some common history, and calling Sword (maybe Uriel) a traitor, points to some former common history and camraderie.
And TBH you have to make decisions as a writer - you cannot make all religions equally true, because well overalapping metaphysics is not all that working together. Reality needs to be consistent. Then on the other side - well even abrahamic religions in those books are sort of vanilla Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, than real Abrahamic religions creed, so there's that.

Now of course there are also other things - Odin and Ethniu are called Elemental Forces of Creation so it can points to some lesser angelic spirits (lesser than well Archangels whose duties probably encompass galaxies and probably many universes at once) who were responsible for shaping / maintaining structure of our maybe no Universe at large, but our Earth - so they are powerhouses here, it's sort of their domain so they command much more actual power than extremely restrained angels but in terms of actual level of power so far Angels fallen or not trumps those chthonic powers.

Then we have WOJ about multiverse and how free will split universes - so it's quite possible for "Abrahamic God" here maintaining free will is like maintaining mechanism of keeping multiverse big - this way for each universe devoured by Outside you've got countless more.

PS. And we have WOJ that THE CREATOR sacked all pagan gods from their jobs for being basically awful so you know any believing pagans can be sort of offended from the get go. Maybe except of Asatru.
Sure, but I think most religions had/have a Creator.

Ymir of the Norse is known more for birthing or supplying the line of beings (gods/giants) that eventually led to Odin and the rest, but he's not credited with actual creation. Atum of the Egyptian pantheon created both gods and the world, so he's more in line with the Creator mythos.

I think JB tends to lean into the elephant parable, so for the Dresdenverse, Atum might be a name for the same Creator as the Abrahamic religions. Ymir *might* be another name for the same, but I think it's more in line with Ymir being a second tier (or lower) being that spawned a pantheon. 

In other words, it's not that the Abrahamic Creator is above other Creators, so much that they're all the same or descendents of one. 

But I also swear that I saw or heard a WoJ (that I have been unable to find, so it's not supported) that Uriel *believes* he was present at the creation of everything, but that doesn't make it *true*. The implication seemed to be that Uriel is shaped, even beyond his own awareness, by what human religion established for him and the other angels. 

I don't know if that was JB hedging to avoid offending those with different beliefs, or if it was an early mental draft to what he was developing for the story, or if that's an accurate description of the Dresdenverse.  And since I can't find that quote, it's hard to support it.  But it's something I keep in mind when thinking about the power structure.

Sure, he now says that the Archangels can obliterate galaxies, but is that because they always could, or because belief gave them that power, and they don't remember anything different because they are what is believed of them?

(For the record, I don't think this is the case. I think in the Dresdenverse, the pantheons are tiers and the Archangels are top tier, and always have been. But it's an interesting idea)

234
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 07, 2020, 07:12:54 PM »
Well dunno maybe what happens in Book of Tobit?

Deuterocanon is in at least part of Protestant translations in a section of Apocrypha. And deuterocanon is still very much canon for Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient denominations. For all account much less exotic source than Enoch.


Interesting option (I think nephilim are on table - I mean Enoch aside - they are part of Noah story).
If Ethniu was scion (or at least in Balor was) then maybe some of such scions could well - go up and become full fledged angels and thus serve Creator while scions in titanic form were trying to play gods for mortals.

I think he was raised as some sort of Baptist so I guess neither deuterocanon nor Enoch.
Still he clearly has some soft spot for Catholics, considering Russian Orthodoxy is expositure of Cthulhu in his books XD
I think it's possible "Demon Binder" could be limited to just the Tobit story, but I'm guessing JB is aware of Enoch, either back when he first started, or more recently if he changed his mind on things.  We don't know if Mac's significance changed as he wrote, like Butters' did.

Personally I think it's feasible that Demonreach is either Dudael itself, or it's Dudael 2.0.  It would play well into the theories that Harry would use the inmates/ley line for a big spell at the end of the series, and Demonreach was the fuel for it, and Dudael is the "Cauldron of God" that the spell would be prepared with.

Of course, all that could be the case and not involve Mac at all.  But it would explain why he was hanging around Chicago, and why he's relevant more than some random other unknown angel.

As for the nephilim being the old gods of pantheons, I think it could be likely, but I don't know that JB would ever limit it to that. It seems more likely that his Dresdenverse versions of gods are manifested Avatars of Creation rather than specifically angel children, because that'd be too much like saying one religion (the Abrahamic three, really) are above others. I don't get the sense that that's his intent.

So Ethniu's comment might be more that they're all Avatars of Creation, by design or otherwise, and are therefore superior to humans. But it could be interpreted either way.

235
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 07, 2020, 05:11:32 AM »
Indeed, but Enochian canon is used only by Tewahedo Church, unless there's some WOJ I forgotten I see no big reason to assume Jim somehow uses more specifically this specific apocrypha.
Problem with angels in The Dresden Files doing such shit is - they are beings literally greater than Earth. Ethniu and some Old Gods in Demonreach are all in terms of sheer power noobs compared to angels. (But then of course we also see Ethniu calling Uriel/sword angel a traitor which points to some interesting possibilities - maybe Titans were angels that sort of lost some power to walk among mortals, and they went on power trip because of this.)
I'm not sure what the source of JB's nickname for Raphael would be, for the Dresdenverse.  It's either from the Book of Enoch or the Book of Tobit.  Both reference Raphael binding a demon/angel in the desert. Neither is canon for Protestants, and Tobit is deuterocanonical at best for Catholics.  I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic. Grigori from Enoch have also become common in the urban fantasy genre, so he could be familiar with both stories to some degree prior to research for the books.

As for Ethniu's comment, the nephilim of Enoch would be an easy explanation for ties between the pantheons.  We've also seen reference to cross-pantheon overlap with the disobedient messengers that became Skinwalkers. That story is similar to the Grigori, with "messengers" defying the rules of the higher powers and ending up on Earth amongst humans.

236
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 07, 2020, 02:13:12 AM »
The thing is also Mac is identified as the Watcher by Sharkface. And Watcher is nickname/title Mab gives to Uriel. Which would points to angel of Uriel's cohort.
Mab calls Uriel the Watchman, not watcher.  And the Book of Enoch, which is what talks about the Watcher angels, also specially refers to Raphael and other non-Fallen angels as watchers. So it would seem that Raphael was also, at minimum, involved with the Watchers. Most angels involved with earth probably are.

Quote
If we count Ethiopian canon yes. But if there is equivalent of it - I think it's simply Hell as prison for Fallen Angels, and non angelic-spirits swayed to Lucifer's side. And this can be made by Raphael.
(Now of course there can be link - like Demonreach being mini-Hell because Merlin copied Rafaels wards.)
Hell is a place for Lucifer's Fallen, which occurred at the dawn of humanity. It was later in human history that more angels (Grigori, watcher angels) went to earth and frolicked with humans. It was that later event described in the Book of Enoch, which is when Raphael was commanded to make the prison in Dudael, a desert on earth (not hell) to hold Azazel (and likely other Grigori as well).

It can be debated that it's another realm, but the text says he was to make a hole in the desert and covering him in rocks. That seems specific to earth terrain, and not a pre-existing place like hell.

237
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 07, 2020, 01:31:03 AM »
This is extremely stretching things out I must say.
Such playing with reality should send Rafael to Hell, not to Irish Pub :P
What do you mean?  Raphael is really only known for a couple things. The big one is, at the command of TWG, creating an earthly prison to hold Azazel until the end of days.  That fits pretty well with Demonreach.

The other things he's known for are more mundane, with him helping humans bind a demon and heal illness using things that might be interpreted as spells and potions.  If these were done post-transubstantiation, it would fit with the WoJ that Mac has never done anything other mortals couldn't do (paraphrased).

The hangups are A) a necessary interpretation of Mab's meaning, and B) Lash's identification of the protection spells being the work of 'Raphael or one of his lieutenants'. I think the former is possible because Mab would totally be the type to care more about the mantle than the bearer, and the latter is explainable as it being a lieutenant did it, or Mac did it, or Lash including Raphael as a possible source because she doesn't know his status (which would have been post-Fall).

238
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 06, 2020, 11:04:08 PM »
The main argument against it is - I think fact that Mab lists Rapahel as one of active archangels.
She says "the Demon Binder takes tasks upon his own shoulders and solves his problems with his own hands."

The theory is that Raphael gave his Grace to Merlin, who created Demonreach across space and time and dimensions, and Merlin then put the Grace into a vessel later named Alfred, leaving Raphael in the transubstantiated form of Mac, who made his choice and only watches now as Alfred fulfills the role of Demon Binder.

239
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 06, 2020, 08:33:25 PM »
Imma put this here...
In the Books of Enoch, the first Book of Enoch devotes much of its attention to the fall of the watchers. The Second Book of Enoch addresses the watchers (Gk. egrḗgoroi) who are in fifth heaven where the fall took place. The Third Book of Enoch gives attention to the unfallen watchers.[10]

The use of the term "watchers" is common in the Book of Enoch. The Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch 6–36) occurs in the Aramaic fragments with the phrase irin we-qadishin, "Watchers and Holy Ones", a reference to Aramaic Daniel.[11] The Aramaic irin "watchers" is rendered as "angel" (Greek angelos, Coptic malah) in the Greek and Ethiopian translations, although the usual Aramaic term for angel malakha does not occur in Aramaic Enoch.[12]

Some[who?] have attempted to date this section of 1 Enoch to around the 2nd–1st century BC and they believe this book is based on one interpretation of the Sons of God passage in Genesis 6, according to which angels mated with human females, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as the Nephilim. The term irin is primarily applied to disobedient watchers who numbered a total of 200, and of whom their leaders are named, but equally Aramaic iri ("watcher" singular) is also applied to the obedient archangels who chain them, such as Raphael (1 Enoch 22:6).

Imma see myself out...  8)

240
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)
« on: November 03, 2020, 03:02:34 PM »
Yup, and we will have to see in the next few books what Jim decides because I think that scene will have lasting consequences.   Thus the ambiguity, I can here his sing song now, "I ain't a going to tell you...."  Sigh.. :-X
Oh, I'm sure it will.  He answered questions in this one, and then dropped more questions. 

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