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Messages - Mira

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1846
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry actually should be out of the White Council
« on: September 21, 2021, 12:12:40 PM »
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    Harry is the son of an expelled wizard that had a death sentence with the Council and was known to hang out with monsters.

Harry didn't ask to be born nor whom to be born to.  The generates prejudice against him, but it is no reason to remove him from the Council.
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Harry was adopted by a Warden in good standing with the Council, a war hero no less that helped bring down Kemmler, but Harry killed him with magic in unknown circumstan
But the wizard had gone warlock, granted Harry did kill him with magic at sixteen, but at a time when he didn't know there was a White Council or that there were Seven Laws, all he was trying to do was survive... Also if the Council wanted to give him the chop, that was the time.
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Harry openly flaunted tradition by practicing openly.
Is it tradition?  I mean the original Merlin didn't hide his light under a rock, in fact until modern times wizards, though a bit secretive, did practice openly and held respected places in the social structure of communities.  Harry follows that tradition.
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Harry started a war that could have been avoided, which got a lot of wizards killed.
He is accused of that, but that wasn't his intention.  Could it have been avoided?  Or is Harry the mere scapegoat that both sides needed to fight?  Also to quote Shiro, respected Holy Knight, paraphrasing, " the White Council is fortunate that the war began when it did, because the Reds didn't quite have their ducks in a row..  Because the Reds were going to attack, make no mistake, it couldn't have been avoided, and a lot more wizards would have died."  Also avoiding war at that point in time was above Harry's pay grade, that was for wizard diplomats, the Senior Council, they failed, Harry was merely the goat. 
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Harry committed genocide against a supernatural nation that was actively pursuing peace.
Were they? Sacrificing a small child to wipe out generations of a wizard's family is hardly an act of a pursing peace.  The Council might overlook the demise of Harry and his little girl, but do you think they could over look Eb's assassination?  Also as pointed out, releasing a bio-weapon in White Council headquarters isn't an act of peace.  Langtree also knew it, that is why he took Harry aside to keep up the fight, in a kind of "Mission Impossible" way...
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Harry abandoned his duties after committing genocide, leaving his Council-sworn duty of protecting Chicago to a rogue apprentice wanted for murder.
Harry was mentally disturbed at that point, and cannot be held responsible for what happened.  Also would it have happened if he wasn't forced to go to Mab in the first place? The Council refused to help Harry save his child, it was the Red King, not Harry that devised the original spell.  Molly was of age when she decided to aid Harry, and she knew perfectly well what she was doing when he was gone. 
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Harry became the Winter Knight, the murderous assassin for the evil Sidhe Court.
The Winter Court isn't evil, they are the ones protecting the rest of the world from the Outsiders at the Gates and have taken losses in the millions.  Also if the Council had supported Harry as they should, they were the first ones he went to with his dilemma, he wouldn't have had to ultimately turn to Mab.
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Harry is a close associate and suspected lover of White Court royalty.
Suspect isn't proof, and the White Court as a signer of the Accords is supposed to be an ally not an enemy.
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Harry performed necromantic magic and was not punished.

He didn't raise a human from the dead.. Also he did it as a Warden of the White Council, if they didn't like the fact that he had stopped the darkhallow, then at the very least Luccio should have demanded his Warden's cloak back.  It was the Council's decision not to punish Harry, he had nothing to do with that decision.
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Harry killed with magic and was not punished.

In self defense, often as a Warden, again, if he wasn't punished, who's fault is that?  Harry is supposed to punish himself?  Or was he merely doing the dirty work that the Council wanted done, had to be done, but were too good in their minds to dirty their hands with the deeds? The Council repeatedly looked the other way, or perhaps muttered a "tut tut..."
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Harry's apprentice performed mind magic and was not punished.
It isn't like Harry didn't try to warn her... And YET AGAIN, who's fault is that?  Molly was under the Doom, if she broke the rule about mind magic both she and Harry should have gotten the chop.  Yet again, the Council looked the other way... Or rather in the middle of a scandal because they were manipulated by Peabody with his ink chose to look the other way... Why?  Because without Harry uncovering the fact, they still would be manipulated..
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Harry worked with Nicodemus Archleon.

Is there a law against that?  Also how many other wizards over the centuries also done the same thing?  I doubt that Harry was the first or will he be the last.
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Harry worked with Mab numerous times before becoming her assassin.
So has the Council, they need her, they used her lands to move back and forth during the war with the Reds.  They are allies.
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Harry killed a Summer Lady.

Not directly, Toot and Company did that.  Technicality, I know, but had it not been done, things would have been a lot worse, because the balance of power would have collapsed and the defense of the Gates would have collapsed,  then what would the Council have done?
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Harry was involved in the deaths of the WinterLady and another Summer Lady.

But he didn't do it, and had it not been done and the prison of Demonreach opened and unspeakable monsters would have been loosed on the world.. What then?
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It's no wonder he lost the popular vote, and you don't even have to bring speculation into it.

The answers to the charges are also indisputable facts, well if that makes Harry an outlaw, I'm with Michael and his string of oaths that were not printable... :-X
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As far as we know, it was only suspected that they did. Harry was also there at the same time, demanding more bloodshed and threatening violence in the hall, while Arianna was there asking for peace and a path forward.

So in the eyes of his critics and those that fear him, which one dropped a bio-attack that threatened to continue the war?

Harry's child was threatened, if he hadn't done, some would question his character for that.  Again, he didn't originate the spell that wiped out the Red Court, it was the Red King and it backfired.  Also Harry was one distressed wizard, it shouldn't have triggered Arrianna to let loose the bio-weapon, not if she really wanted peace, it merely gave her an excuse.  If she really wanted peace, all that was needed was to demand that Harry be shut up and locked up until she finished her negotiations.
But she had her own agenda, and it wasn't peace with the White Council.

1847
DF Spoilers / Re: Who will be the next Blackstaff? (If Eb dies)
« on: September 21, 2021, 11:09:27 AM »
Okay I'm really going to go out on a limb, I don't think there will be another Blackstaff, Eb dies, and Harry will give Mother Winter her staff back.  It could be that that is the deal changer that is needed to defeat the Outsiders, or because of her role, Mother Winter will get her staff back.. Or.....Wait for it, Harry presents Mab with it as she takes over Mother Winter's job.. ::)

1848
DF Spoilers / Re: White Council Top Members
« on: September 21, 2021, 04:53:31 AM »
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I mean if he had Blackstaff he could have straight up killed him, but yeah it was more than a friendly sparring match. Harry held his own is the point, puts his combat abilities in the top 10.

Eb didn't need the Blackstaff to defeat Harry, his arsenal of skills honed over three hundred years or more were enough for that.  No, I think Eb was trying to pull his punches some, this is he grandson after all.  However he needed to stop him, and Harry is powerful no argument there.  Powerful enough that when he wouldn't give up it triggered the fail safe that killed his double.

1849
DF Spoilers / Re: Wonder what Eb meant by this
« on: September 21, 2021, 04:47:14 AM »
When he thought he killed Harry he said "Oh, lad.  Didn't think you were going to come at me again.  Didn't think it would trigger"

What would trigger?  What did he mean?  I don't think the spell was meant for the Beetle because it was just a small projectile the size of a quarter.  I'm wondering what exactly he's referring to.

Last line of defense maybe or failsafe?  In other words, if he, the Blackstaff was in serious danger of going down in a close fight, it would automatically trigger the projectile killing the enemy.  It makes sense, the last thing Eb or the Council would want is for the Blackstaff to fall into enemy hands.  It just speaks to how close Harry may have come to actually defeating Eb. Or perhaps because of the emotional aspects of the fight, Eb lost his grip on that last line of defense. 

1850
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry actually should be out of the White Council
« on: September 21, 2021, 04:35:41 AM »
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So, the White Council kicked Harry out for slaughtering the Fomor servitors (technically human). There were witnesses, and even though the servitors would have gleefully killed Harry, the self-defense exemption wasn’t allowed. I guess this was a fig leaf for his expulsion. Whether or not that was to allow him more freedom of action to be a destroyer or not, we’ll have to wait to find out.

 Everyone knows that was a fig leaf, it was the excuse they needed to do it.  The Fomor servitors might "look" human, but they have gills, not exactly human, and it was in the middle of a battle.  The Council also knows that, that is why they commuted the death sentence to expulsion, otherwise they'd have to execute half the Council. 

1851
DF Spoilers / Re: White Council Top Members
« on: September 20, 2021, 10:30:19 AM »
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Of course he did. They threw spells around, and Harry presses his physical advantage by closing in with frosty flooring and staff fighting.
Harry would have lost a purely magical duel, but there aren’t any of those outside an Accords duel. The point is Harry put up a respectable fight against the WC’s top enforcer. He’d stand a better chance against weaker opponents, i.e. most every other wizard in the world.

Until the end that is, we don't know how much Eb was holding back until he totally lost it.

1852
DF Spoilers / Re: White Council Top Members
« on: September 20, 2021, 03:31:40 AM »
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Ramirez was in charge and got to pick the security detail, so he went with wardens he was comfortable working with and that were good in a fight.  It's why he approached Harry in PT to join the security detail.
Ordinarily I'd agree, but I think it was a bit more complicated than that.  I don't think Carlos approached Harry to be part of the security detail because he is good in a fight, though on the surface Harry is an obvious choice.  No, it was when he came to inform him he was on the detail that Carlos secretly slapped the tracking tab on Harry..  No, mostly it was a ruse so they could keep a close eye on him, and this was before Thomas did what he did.

1853
DF Spoilers / Re: Mirror Mirror character changes ideas
« on: September 19, 2021, 05:19:34 PM »


   Little Harry, his name sake that he saved when he saved the pregnant Charity, like his older sister, has talent and is more pure warlock than Molly ever was.  He could even be on his way to becoming the next Kemmler.. So for the sake of mankind, Harry go back and changes things so though he still saves Charity, she loses the baby..

1854
DF Spoilers / Re: What will Eb do?
« on: September 19, 2021, 04:06:50 PM »
Morgan had only been on the run for a day or two not years like Maggie Sr.

Yeah, I don't think it has ever been clear if she was ever a member of the Council.  On one hand in the earlier books when Harry was called on the carpet by the Senior Council, those that argue he is very much like his mother was, fighting the status quo, rebelling etc, give the impression that she was.. On the other hand if she was on the "most wanted list" given that they seemed to feel the need to expel Harry from the Council first before they did that says that at least at the time of her death Margaret was no longer a member if she ever was.  Plus given the problems she had with Eb says she might never have joined.  Harry even says in the earlier books that he agrees with what his mother was rebelling against as far as the Council's out dated thinking.  But it gets fuzzy because at that point in time anyway, Harry was still a staunch believer in the Council.. He never fully says one way or another if she was a member or still was a member when she died.  He may not know.

1855
DF Spoilers / Re: DragonCon 2021 Starborn or Star Born?
« on: September 19, 2021, 02:37:20 PM »
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Here the problem. Harry is aged at whatever he was when he went back.  The older he is when he travels the worse the discrepancy. So present Harry couldn't go back and substitute himself say before Blood Rites before his  his hand is burned. Or in Proven Guilty where Lash is still on board. Or where Molly exists. And he has the mantle. He isn't that younger Harry and can't be.
Or those things didn't happen, what if it is important that they did happen?  If he makes them happen they may not have the same results that they did in the current timeline.. And may I point out not all the results of the negative things that happened to Harry in the current timeline were negative.  Example, yes, he burned his hand severely in this timeline, but he also learned from it, that his shields had an important weakness that he was able to fix.  He may be able to set it up so he gets burned again in the past, but can it be guaranteed that the outcome would be the same? The answer is, no.

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Killing other versions of himself appears to be the plot device of Mirror Mirror.

Which brings us back to the original Trek episode, or rather a couple of them... Yes, in the original Mirror Mirror, Kirk tells the Spock of the other dimension/universe to assassinate the evil Kirk of that universe/dimension in typical Kirk fashion breaking the rules trusting that his judgement is right, but what if it isn't?  Huge plot hole.  In the other version again because of a transporter accident Kirk is split into his to personalities one overtly mild and moral, the other rather ruthless and aggressive, okay let's get rid of the "evil" or aggressive and ruthless Kirk.. Problem, to be a strong leader Kirk needs both sides of himself to be the leader he is, what is more without one side or the other he begins to die.

That is where I think the time travel episode, "The City on the Edge of Forever," is the best.. The lesson there was trying to do a good thing may be the worst thing for the future.  McCoy saved Edith, good thing, she did a lot of good things for the world.. Problem, those good things prevented the world from stopping an evil in time, hence no human race, at least with the future of the Trek timeline..  So Kirk and Spock go back to restore the tragedy of the past, Edith, ahead of her time in many ways, had to die for mankind to progress.

Yesterday's Enterprise was another excellent time travel episode, only to be mucked up in later episodes by writers who don't know enough to leave perfect alone...  Working that one out can make your head burst..

 

1856
DF Spoilers / Re: DragonCon 2021 Starborn or Star Born?
« on: September 19, 2021, 10:54:35 AM »
The time travel one.

Let's face it. Chandler showing up back in his original reality saying he accidentally ended up in a parallel universe and was stuck there for a year until he hitched a ride back with Harry... That's not going to go over well.

Yeah, rather like being "dead" for almost a year and coming back.. ::)

1857
DF Spoilers / Re: White Council Top Members
« on: September 19, 2021, 05:28:34 AM »
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He watches the Outer Gates and is called "The Gate Keeper".  Almost positive that it's an actual Mantle of power.  I tend to think of it as a Winter Mantle but it could be a Summer one.

Or unique in that it is a Mantle that serves both Courts, more likely the Mothers.  One theory that I believe has legs is that his "eye" is the eye that the three Fates shared to see the future, Mother Winter responded to the name, Atropos, which was the name of one of the three sisters. 

1858
DF Spoilers / Re: Mistakes Harry has made that will come back
« on: September 19, 2021, 05:18:21 AM »
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1.  Handing over the Book of Kemmler to Mavra.  She was blackmailing him, but was protecting a friend from her career getting ruined worth handing over a book like that to a monster?  I don't think so, and I imagine it's going to come up again.

Already did, the book allowed her to cozy up to Drakul big time and recruit some Wardens into her service.  Further cemented what ever Carlos thinks he suspects Harry is up to, because he holds Harry responsible.  On the other hand, blackmail is never as simple as it appears to be, otherwise it wouldn't be such an effective dirty weapon
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2.  Staking claim to Demon Reach.  This was a really big move, and it seems to have worked out well for him.  That being said, Jim said "He's going to wish he never stepped foot on that Island".  So I imagine it was a bad move.

Bet he already wishes that, on one hand he was able to save Thomas's life by imprisoning him there. However if he may never be able to ever let him out again.  It appears up to this point anyway that the only sentences Alfred hands down are life sentences.  I think Harry is going to find that hard to live with. 

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3.  Splitting up Bob.  Seemed like a good idea, but I think Evil Bob is out there, allied with who knows who.  He had access to horrible knowledge.  Can't imagine that will end well.

That was a result, not a conscious choice I think..  Harry was more like Pandora, he needed information about a time in Bob's life when he served the ultimate evil wizard.  Bob begged him
not to do it if I remember correctly but couldn't or wouldn't explain why.  Once called up, Evil Bob nearly killed Harry, Evil Bob was suppressed once more, but this time was able to splinter off. Yeah,
bad news, but like in the myth Pandora also released "Hope" when she released all the trouble on  the earth, Good Bob was also returned to serve.
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4.  Killing the entire Red Court.  Some of that may be becoming apparent already with the Fomor.  I'm wondering if Harry will realize he had another option, and the one he chose was the wrong one.  As a wizard I'm wondering if he could have worked out a spell, and used that source of power for something else, rather than sacrifice Susan and wipe out out the Red's.

I don't think Harry had any good options in this case because the spell that he reversed that ended in the demise of the Red Court would have ended in his own demise and that of his child and Eb and most likely Thomas.  The only possible one I can think of is if he had found a way to kill the Red King before he killed little Maggie.. It looked like at that point anyway that that wasn't going to happen, even though Harry was backed by some real heavy weights.

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Just some off the top of my head.  Can you think of some critical decisions he made that may have appeared right but will return to haunt him later?

His night of unprotected sex with Susan that resulted in the birth of little Maggie.  True, he got a beautiful daughter but see regret number 4, for the consequence of that little act.

1859
DF Spoilers / Re: Will Harry change his approach to magic now?
« on: September 18, 2021, 11:54:05 PM »
And some of them die because a wizard sneezes :p

Well it helps to sneeze in the right place at the right time... Timing is everything and it doesn't hurt to have a bit of luck... ::)

1860
DF Spoilers / Re: White Council Top Members
« on: September 18, 2021, 11:39:44 PM »
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I remember thinking that about the 16 year olds at the time, but then at the same time I thought given the number of Supernatural stuff marketed to teenagers. Harry Potter, Twilight, Vampire Diaries so on and so forth.

Then again, those kids were captured, tortured, and eaten by those ghouls in short order, that is what set Harry off to the point where he totally lost it.  Of course it didn't help that Lasciel's shadow was stoking his rage, but I think even if she wasn't in his head he still would of lost it.  What happened to those kids was that horrible.
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Was just thinking about this and how the discussion may be too one dimensional.  Wizard power is but one power source.  The Gatekeeper may be the most dangerous, not because of his wizard capabilities but because of a Mantle he has.  The same could be said for any others.

We don't even know what Mantle the Gatekeeper carries, if he carries any.  All we know is he traded in one of his eyes for a Nemesis detector made of the same material as the Outer Gates.. We know he can also tell what might happen in the future with it.  That is he can see odds, not the future exactly, as in Turn Coat, when Harry was on the boat, Rashid did his eye thing and told Harry what his chances were, then when Harry hopped onto the island, Rashid saw a different future. Mantles also are not the same, Eb and Rashid both call being the Warden of Demonreach a Mantle, yet off the island it has a limit, as in with power boost, the shores of Lake Michigan, beyond which it is merely a title.  The mantles of the Queens, Ladies, and Knights seem to have no limit.. However in the case of the Knights, they can numb pain, but not prevent serious injury.

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