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Messages - Second Aristh

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181
Yes, she is the Winter Lady, but lots of Molly remains..  Suggest you reread the short story, "Good People."  Even if she was basically all Winter Lady, it isn't in the interest of the Winter Court or any other member of the Accords for one faction to be at war with another no matter how big the provocation was.
Molly is Winter Lady enough that she can't give something away for nothing.  The location of an enemy is valuable.  All this is assuming that Molly knows, of course.  She'd probably put together why Harry needed the illusion ring, but it isn't a given.

182
Also a jailed Thomas may eventually talk, a dead one won't. They need the why ... especially after the Titan invasion. It happened way too soon after this to be dismissed as coincidence. And the svartalf spies in the White Court have probably told them that after Harry threw Thomas in jail Lara was very pissed at him.  And if they could get an account, possibly by Freydis, from Vadderung's organization, Lara, with her Valkyrie bodyguard, attacked Dresden for this - and were swatted down like flies.
Are there svartalf spies in the White Court?  They don't exactly blend in.  Even if there are, they're not eavesdropping on what happened at Demonreach.  The island's intellectus would have alerted him to other people on the island.

183
DF Spoilers / Re: Outsiders origins
« on: August 18, 2021, 04:49:19 AM »
I would think being created by mortals would make Outsiders technically "insiders" tbh.

184
DF Spoilers / Re: So When Maeve Died, What Happened to.....
« on: August 18, 2021, 03:49:08 AM »
I think the Mantle is unalterable.  Meaning that Nemesis couldn't latch on to it.  So It's connection was lost when Maeve died. 

I think that Mab knows that there is too much humanity left in Molly.  She needs Molly to give herself to the Mantle, completely.  A Winter Lady that's conflicted is tolerable, a Winter Queen is not.  The Queen must be laser focused on the mission at hand.  The mission to protect the Out Gates at any cost. 

Remember that Molly loves Harry.  Mab does not.  She see's Harry as a weapon, and my guess is a disposable weapon that isn't supposed to survive past the Stars and Stones.  Molly might not have what it takes to sacrifice Harry the same way Mab will do it without hesitation.
Mantles are alterable, likely not by Nemesis, but snipping off pieces of power and trading them along and melding them with other mantles happens (e.g. doing that is probably the main purpose of the Stone Table in Tir Na Nog).  Taking on the santa mantle let Odin go from his original perception to the one we think of today, but it's a slow process.

I agree that Mab thinks Molly has too much soul to be a proper Winter Queen.  She's too emotional to take up Mab's mantle in her eyes.

185
DF Spoilers / Re: How long did Thomas know?
« on: August 17, 2021, 06:17:18 AM »
But so far not played, leaving a Walker tied up in a pregnant woman's body.
If the assumption is that Nemesis can't hop back and forth among several.  My guess is 13 bodies based on the cornerhounds and the number keeping on popping up in other contexts, but that's only a guess. 

It would tie up at least one of the slots that Nemesis might hop into at a given time, though.  Depending on its options, that might be worth it to eventually play the hostage card against Harry.

Of course he would have been suspicious of what motivated Thomas, but he had no time for an investigation.  Lara would have insisted on that had they all survived the attack.  I don't think the bread crumbs would lead all that easily back to Justine.. She'd also have time to get her act together and Lara would have been even more protective of her, remember she never saw through her.
Lara never saw through Justine's ruse in what 48 hours?  Less?  When the supernatural world was exploding all around her.  I have confidence that given time, Lara would have come to the same conclusions as Harry did on the boat.  He did learn about the pregnancy significantly earlier than she did.  More investigation wasn't needed.  Time to think was what was missing.  Sending Thomas off may not have been a 100% chance of outing Justine, but it was more likely than not going to do so.

186
DF Spoilers / Re: Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?
« on: August 17, 2021, 06:06:46 AM »
She became worth it the moment she became kine for the immediate Raith family..  Big clue here, she's insane, but feeding on her makes her sane?
I'm sure there are dozens of them at any given time.  Papa Raith liked to surround himself with them as bodyguards before BR.  Why not porn star Bobby that Inari fell in love with too?  He'd be the boyfriend of Harry's brother's sister.  Maybe Nemesis's plan to install him as the Merlin's personal butler just hasn't come to fruition yet.

But Maeve was infected, not possessed apparently.. As far as that goes, Maeve never had a "handle" as you call it on Harry, but Thomas did as of Grave Peril.
Maeve is important completely independently of Harry.  The Winter Lady is a great target to wreak havoc on the balance of reality.  A mortal Raith girlfriend is not if that's the best credentials she's got.

Nemesis has the time...  All that time it has someone on the inside, watching.. Hence the name HE WHO WALKS BESIDE, that is someone that goes along, they don't interfere they are just there watching and taking in information.
But at the time you are proposing Justine was taken, she wasn't on the inside watching.  That's the whole point.  She's not worth taking before she was in a good position to do that.

Or because Justine was already possessed, Susan couldn't have fed on her if she wanted to.
Go read the end of GP.  Justine was fed on by the other rampires.  She shows Harry the bite marks.

That isn't Lara's style.
It would have been kind, and Lara is sometimes quietly human when nobody is looking.

Yes, but that was before Margaret's curse, Papa Raith isn't the man he used to be.  He wasn't going to use Nemesis to take out Thomas, but use Thomas by way of Justine..
Papa Raith never fed on his sons, only his daughters.  Nothing changed there post-death curse.

187
DF Spoilers / Re: How long did Thomas know?
« on: August 17, 2021, 05:35:22 AM »
I doubt that Justine is a hostage, at least at this point anyway, because so far no demands are being made for her freedom. 

  I think Nemesis counted on Thomas being killed in the act and Justine playing the grieving lover and mother of his child.. Thus getting herself even more deeply embedded into Lara's inner circle and in closer contact with her associates, and perhaps access to Vadderung.  Remember until Harry forced the issue, no one had any clue that Justine was possessed.
Hostage in the sense that Nem!Justine can tell Harry, "Back off or I will kill this vessel" type scenario, but true for the ransom note.  It's a card that Nemesis could play against Harry, but not many others.

Even with Thomas being killed in the act, I think Harry would have been suspicious of what motivated him to attempt it.  With time to think, that road almost certainly leads to Justine again anyway.  It is exactly what an exhausted Harry came to the conclusion of once he had a bit of breathing room post-Ethniu.  I think there may be more to the motivation puzzle we don't see yet.

188
DF Spoilers / Re: How long did Thomas know?
« on: August 17, 2021, 03:41:53 AM »
Justine can still do a great deal of harm.  Who knows what secrets she had access to as Lara's Privy Secretary.  Granted, some of that information will eventually go stale, but there will be more damage to the White Court for certain.

One easy example: Justine/Nemesis knows that Lord Raith is a drooling moron.  That is not public knowledge, but suspected by some. 

Another easy example:  Justine's "betrayal" of Lara demonstrates Lara's relative incompetence at scheming, justifying (more) plots to depose her.  Yes, many of her serious enemies died during Blood Rites and Turn Cloak, but many remain, certainly.
I'd imagine any secrets would very quickly go stale.  Moving safe houses and the like.  Swapping security protocols in the Raith estates.

After this long, I think Lara being the White Queen is an all but open secret (especially to the people that play the information game like the White Court).  She's pretty well solidified her power base beneath her in WN (finishing up in TC) and has been expanding White Court power politically through the mortal world (remember the navy cruiser in Changes?).  You don't move like that if there's a real threat of your base of power being ripped from under you.  Losing Justine is a hit to her, but I don't think it'll make other whampires think it is time to take a shot at her.  If anything, I think losing Justine would be an emotional toll instead of a political one.  Lara probably doesn't have that many close friends, tbh.

189
DF Spoilers / Re: How long did Thomas know?
« on: August 16, 2021, 10:52:10 PM »
I don't think it's a given that Thomas would end up a prisoner inside Demonreach, but I think it's a near certainty that Thomas would given sanctuary on the island itself -- even if Thomas had not been captured by the Svartelves. 

Harry and Lara have access to exactly one place that they could stash someone, in perpetuity, and be assured that the Svartelves couldn't grab him.
Yeah, I don't think it was a given that Thomas would end up a prisoner under Demonreach either.  If he was just staying on the island, Justine wouldn't need to be let into the island's defenses (at least no further than she'd already been).  They can chat on the Whatssup Dock and avoid the worst of the island's creepy vibe.  Lara probably has safehouses that the svartalves don't know about too.

The fact that the opportunity to get Justine past Demonreach's defenses wasn't too likely to occur points to an alternative main goal and the Demonreach ploy being a last minute change of plans hoping to get lucky since Justine's cover was going to be blown soon anyway.  So what was the original goal of sending Thomas to assassinate Etri?  I see two main consequences of initiating the assassination with Justine:  (1) small temporary disruption of the Accords, but the peace talks were already going to be majorly disrupted anyway, and (2) it tied Harry's time up completely before Ethniu got there.

Consequence (2) seems most likely for Nemesis, and it synergizes with the distraction that the White Council vote.  That begs the question, what was the thing that Harry was being distracted from?



Did Nemesis give up that agent?  Unless Justine turns up somewhere no longer infected or dead, she is still out there.  Oh they want the prison population alright, the frontal attack in Cold Days didn't work, they managed to get an agent inside, Maeve, Harry didn't have working knowledge of the island's defenses yet, but they failed.  Oh I think it was predictable to a degree, that if Thomas survived the assassination attempt, Lara would want to free her brother, Harry would want to free his brother.. If Lara had her way, she would have hauled him off to the estate and fed him up even if it took a thousand vanilla humans dying in the process to do that.  Harry also as a member at a critical time had only one alternative, put Thomas in prison on the island, that is the only solution that would satisfy everyone.  Poor Justine, of course she'd want to see her lover, another in to the prison.
Now that Harry knows Justine has been taken, Justine can't do anything active to help Nemesis.  At best, she's a hostage instead of a well placed spy that can act in Nemesis's interests.  Nemesis gave those options up when it sent Thomas on the assassination.

190
DF Spoilers / Re: Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?
« on: August 16, 2021, 10:23:36 PM »
Um, black sheep, a little crazy?  Sounds a bit like Maeve doesn't it?  Hmmm... Target, the brother of a star born who defeated He Who Walks Behind at sixteen...  I'd say perfect positioning.
Maeve is several orders of magnitude more important than Justine, and if your goal is to get a handle on Harry originally from before BR, his brother's mortal girlfriend is not a good target.  Might as well get Harry's dentist. 


No, she wasn't random, I'd have to go back and read, I seem to remember she was selected kine to feed the family, I seem to remember Lord Raith chose her for him.
Thomas met Justine at Zero.  A citation would be nice here.

Why?  Yes, that is what she ended up as, but what she did, she didn't need to be secretary.  All she had to do was become the lover of Thomas, and then get herself pregnant, she then had all the leverage she needed to get him to upset the apple cart.
Without the rest of her connections, she blackmails Thomas, he gets disavowed and executed.  All that work over the course of years for no payoff.  It's not worth the effort for Nemesis without Justine's other connections.  Nemesis couldn't have predicted that Justine would get all those connections before BR, hence infection post-BR.


It may appear random, but not really, as a male, Raith saw his son as a threat.. The choice was a bit more complicated than merely random.
Papa Raith had taken care of several sons before Thomas and probably planned on taking care of several more in the coming centuries.  Nemesis doesn't need to be involved for that.


However that didn't happen, I think you are confusing the end of Grave Peril with Changes.. Susan only becomes a full feeding baby vampire in Changes and we know what happened there, Justine wasn't at C.I.
I'm not getting GP confused with Changes.  Check out the end of GP again. 
Bianca locks Justine in the larder with half-turned Susan.  Until Harry showed up, it was obvious that Justine was intended to finish her turning.  Huge chance that the effort of infecting Justine before BR is all wasted.


In Grave Peril Susan is half turned, but she didn't feed, now they may not have gotten to Justine yet, but Mavra was also there and chose some "take out" when she left, those poor kids were also unturned.  So perhaps Justine got lucky or she wasn't messed with because she was already possessed by Nemesis..Again, my point, how did she survive?  Oh maybe she is possessed by Nemesis..
Or maybe it was completely unpredictable luck that Harry managed to save her against all odds.  Other rampires had already started feeding on Justine before she got locked in with Susan.  Justine was set up to die that night from Susan's first feeding. 

Not so odd, Lara loves her brother and is grateful and knows how he feels about her. Either way it embeds Justine further and makes her even more legit, best cover yet.
You've got a 50/50 shot that Lara buys her a country house to stay in far away from WC politics.  That's a 50/50 shot that half the benefit of taking her is wiped away and Nemesis wasted years of work recruiting a nobody.

Nemesis has time, this isn't the only place that Nemesis is, it is a critical place, things don't always go exactly right, just look at how Harry's life has gone, it is full of "what ifs" and "but fors"  Nemesis isn't always successful but that doesn't stop it.
Exactly, the world is difficult to predict.  Nemesis plays the odds and spends its effort to acquire well-placed agents most likely to be able to help its agenda.  You don't invest your power in a nobody and hope for the best that you'll get lucky.  Justine wasn't worth acquiring until after BR.

191
DF Spoilers / Re: Agents of G.U.A.R.D. or W.A.R.D.?
« on: August 16, 2021, 06:31:53 AM »
If you want mortals to protect themselves from the supernatural, you've got to get

P.I.T.C.H.F.O.R.K.
Paranormal Intelligence Tactical Combat Headquarters For Observation and Reality Keeping

The supernatural community has to watch out for those forkers.  ;D

192
DF Spoilers / Re: Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?
« on: August 16, 2021, 06:12:28 AM »
Or infected before, there is motive you know?  If Lord Raith instigated it for example, then he pushes
Justine together with Thomas.  He both would like to get rid of Thomas and he knows who his brother is.  No, the more I think of it, the more likely she was always infested.
No, not evidence for infecting her before, because Justine wasn't anywhere near that strategic position that makes her worth acquiring before BR (really before WN imo).  Before BR, Justine was black sheep of the family Thomas's mortal girlfriend; that's basically it.  There were much better targets for Nemesis to spend its finite resources on before BR.


I don't see Thomas's character growth being based on a lie.  His growth came from his own feeling, that was sincere, not his fault if he was duped.  Justine wasn't trying to get pregnant out of love for Thomas.. That weren't a dream.
Like I said, your mileage may vary.  Taking Thomas's character arc to "Psych, she never really loved you" is not a good storyline for me.  I don't think that viewpoint would be uncommon.


Nemesis is a very good chess player, that is what makes it so dangerous.. So dangerous in fact that Titania only whispers it's name.  As I said, implanted Justine is no random mortal, just sat back quietly acting a bit crazy to take advantage where ever she could and she did.
Before BR, Justine really is just some random mortal that Thomas fell in love with.  Her choices and circumstances elevate her position only after BR, which makes that a good early bound for when Nemesis got its hooks into her.

For mortal Justine to be worth the resources for Nemesis to grab, she needs to be secretary to the White Queen at least.  To have predicted Justine from the beginning was going to get there requires Nemesis to correctly guess
1)  Random mortal Raith picked would be compatible with Thomas for more than a fling
2)  Justine would need to survive not being eaten by baby-rampire Susan; and that probably only happens because Harry intervenes in time.
3)  Justine survives fatal feeding from Thomas
4)  Lara takes Justine under her wing instead of setting her up somewhere quietly out of the way
If any one of those things doesn't go exactly right, Nemesis loses out on its investment of resources in the Justine plant.  Nemesis would have had to predict all of those unpredictable outcomes years in advance.  If it could do that, Nemesis should have ended reality centuries ago.

193
DF Spoilers / Re: How long did Thomas know?
« on: August 15, 2021, 11:15:38 PM »
Let's not forget it was at Lara's insistence that Harry take Justine to the island with Mab backing her on that insistence that Harry was on the boat with her in the first place.  If Harry hadn't napped and started to run things together and add things together, Nemesis would have gotten inside the island defenses..  So clever Lara didn't think anything was wrong with Justine, felt she owed her.. And if Mab couldn't figure it out, who could?  No, I think the object was to get past the defenses, which Justine/He Who Walks Beside would have if Harry hadn't smelled a rat... From there it would have been a small matter of releasing monsters, the like of the world hadn't seen in a millennia, that wasn't just to kill time.

Call Harry stashing Thomas on Demonreach a bit of a gift, don't think that was predictable, don't think they expected him to survive the plot.  However once that happened and the battle of Chicago was lost, Nemesis is smart enough to take advantage of that gift.  So Justine play victim and lover of Thomas whined enough so that Lara with Mab's backing got Harry to take her to the island.  If it had succeeded it would have indeed snatched victory from the jaws of defeat..
We agree that Nemesis wanted inside Demonreach once it was clear that Thomas was there, but it's a big leap from sending Thomas on an assassination to getting inside the island's defenses.  It wasn't a given that Thomas would end up there, and Nemesis gave up a well placed agent on the off chance to have the opportunity.  It makes it seem like there may have been another goal in mind before the Demonreach gambit presented itself.  Tying up Harry's time is plausible like Harry mentioned, but to what end?

194
Ummm...What? Are there some short stories floating around post BG that haven't been shared with the public?
There are some microfictions posted on Jim's website. Microfictions here
They're short and character driven.

195
DF Spoilers / Re: Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?
« on: August 15, 2021, 10:03:43 PM »
Is it?  Since it wasn't telegraphed I wouldn't call it a sloppy story telling device.  In fact it is a very realistic one, during the Cold War, the Soviets did that very thing, agents would move here, speak perfect American English, be very American, marry, have children, no one knew until it happened and actual damage was done, that this person was a spy for the other side all along.  I'm not saying it happened often, but it happened.  Doesn't matter whether or not Lord Raith is associated with Outsiders, Justine wasn't embedded to hurt the White Court..  When she turned Thomas lose to assassinate the head of one of the Accord members, she didn't give a fig about what happened to Thomas as a result, that was coldly done.  And since Lord Raith as we know from Blood Rites doesn't care about Thomas either and was willing to sacrifice him if it broke Margaret's death curse, he applaud it. 

Point is, it did infest Justine, and yes, for those very reasons you just stated..  So she could strike
when there was an opening.
And it is very possible that Lord Raith has known all along that Justine was infested... And that his son, Thomas would be a willing dupe for her to toy with, and the connections to Harry..
Those are all reasons why Nemesis would want to infect Justine sometime after BR.  The question at hand is when Justine was infected, not if she was or not.

To be a plant from the very beginning is much less likely than being infected after BR.  For one, it would require Nemesis to be lying on the boat (why write it where Nemesis was intentionally vague and giving false information at the same time?).  Next, it would mean that the majority of Thomas's character growth is based on a lie, which is not a great writing choice.  It's the same idea why people hate the "It was a dream all along" story ending. 
Then it would require that Nemesis was a good enough chess player to have predicted the convoluted way this random mortal would somehow dance her way into the position of the White Queen's secretary (and if its chess master skills are so strong, how is someone like Harry even a problem at all?) and/or why it was worth investing so much energy into this mortal instead of a better target.

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