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Messages - Griffyn612

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166
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone and Nicodemus allies?
« on: June 27, 2021, 02:42:37 PM »
Wait, how do we know Tessa didn't turn on Nico?

167
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone and Nicodemus allies?
« on: June 27, 2021, 01:10:29 AM »
To date, Nico destroyed Marcone's building, possibly killed some of his people, kidnapped and tortured and humiliated him, violated his accorded territory and authority, broke into his Accord-licensed bank, and killed at least one employee on that occasion.

To date, Marcone helped manipulate Nico into an action that cost him his daughter and closest ally.

I don't see either of them wanting to team up.

It seems more likely to me that Marcone will not work with any other Denarians because he will not trust them, and he doesn't need them, other than for muscle.

Even if he got coins to give to people, he wouldn't trust the people after they've got their own demon on board. Having the will to defy the demon has got to be rare, and not worth risking.

168
DF Spoilers / Re: Starborn WAG
« on: June 26, 2021, 01:45:00 AM »
Agreed, I also think if there are so many of them, what is so special about them?  However here is another way to look at it, many babies are born every day with genius level I.Q.s, but very few for fill that promise or potential, and even fewer still are really remembered... As in there are many mathematicians and physicists with genius level intelligence, but very few of genius,as in Einstein,Newton, or Hawking..  Maybe it works the same way for star born?
Pretty much. I think being born at a certain time is one component, but it's only one. I think there are others as well. Perhaps they have to be exposed to certain magics by a certain age. It's been speculated before that maybe they have to be exposed to outsider energy. That would reduce to the potentials significantly.

Number I dug up was 250 babies/hour. And this would have been in 1975, with a lower population- 4 billion vs. 7.8. So the rate was lower then.

I go around on what Elaine really is. Could a starborn have been put on ice since the last cycle? Tinfoil hats want to know!
Hmm, I'm not sure. This site
says there were right around 120 million born in 1975. That seems to be around 14k per hour. So four hours, maybe more if at night during a hours with lower averages, should cover the 40-60k.

169
DF Spoilers / Re: Starborn WAG
« on: June 25, 2021, 02:48:26 PM »
Starborn are born at the right confluence in time. There's nothing that says a starborn must have talent. If there are 40,000-60,000 starborn at the start of this cycle, that's something like a 4-6 hour window where they could have been born.

If starborn need at least some level of talent- well, we don't have the numbers to calculate that, but it does stretch the window a bit.
Eb says "for a few hours" every 666 years. The internet says there's 385,000 babies born per day, or 32,000 per hour.

If the average is 50,000 potential starborn born each time, then it stands to reason that Eb is correct that it's a couple hours, maybe up to three, every 666 years. The 40-60k variance could be due to lower birthing rates at night. (~25% less at night)

That would also go with Listen, who Harry describes in Ghost Story as not seeming to have talent, being a starborn.

The only thing that goes against it is an old statement from JB that Harry and Elaine didn't have the same birthday. So either he changed his mind, or the window was across midnight, or she wasn't actually a potential.

170
DF Spoilers / Re: Whatoes this mean?
« on: June 22, 2021, 01:17:38 PM »
That Harry pulled the trigger on a global-scale spell that could be prophesized as an event in the Outsider Book of Revelation, causing a vision of what was to come.

171
My guess is that there's an Outsider contagion that weakens the morals of the Outfected.

I think it also makes a network that Beside can hear through, similar to how Anduriel can hear through shadows. I don't think he can possess just anyone in the network, but he can probably hear them and maybe even see through them. (Possession would require something extra, like a vector or possessed person)

Saying "Nemesis" with intent might ring a bell that would draw Beside's attention to the conversation which he might otherwise not have paid attention to. And anyone who gained knowledge of "Nemesis" might go up on the threat index, which would make them a higher target to maintain secrecy.

Harry could jeopardize the very people he was trying to help protect from the threat if they're already Outfected.

Glossary
Outfection: spiritual malady from Outside.
Outfected: someone tainted with Outfection who suffers from weakened moral and ethical values.
Outwork: the collection of Outfected that Beside can listen through.
Nemfection: actual possession or hosting of Beside.
Nemfected: an individual hosting Beside.

172
DF Spoilers / Re: Starborn WAG
« on: June 21, 2021, 05:30:52 PM »
I got the impression that it was more like a window of time where there's a naturally occurring confluence of energy that bathes across the earth, and every newborn is exposed to it. If they end up having magical power, then they might have an ability to have their magic on equal terms between outsiders and insiders.

It's doesn't necessarily give them extra control over Outsiders; it just puts the mortal on the same footing as if they were performing magic on insiders.

173
DF Spoilers / Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« on: June 20, 2021, 02:00:06 PM »
Honestly, the best way for Harry to convince Carlos that he's not a maniacal bad guy is to lose in a fight to Carlos. Then when Carlos wonders why it was so easy, Harry can very angrily shout that it's because Harry has spent exactly zero time trying to figure out how to defeat the friends and allies he trusts wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately his wholehearted trust in Carlos is gone now, between Carlos' actions and Harry's knowledge of Nemeside.

174
DF Spoilers / Re: About those Titans
« on: June 20, 2021, 01:53:36 PM »
Vadderung is an elemental being according to Gard and might have known Uriel from the beginning. He gave up power to stay involved.
In Norse mythology, Odin is the son of Bor, who is the son of Buri, who was the creator of all the (Norse) gods. Buri just existed but was freed from his entombment/encasement/gestation/whatever by a cosmic cow that licked enough salt. The cow, Aušumbla, may have been a primordial entity, and coexisted with a primordial jotunn named Ymir, the first of his kind.

My dresdenverse take would be that Ymir and Aušumbla would either be the first generation elemental avatars, or they predate creation. Either way, Buri would be the first or second generation EA, which would make Odin the third or fourth EA.

And then he took demotions to stay on the payroll rather than retire.

That certainly fits Seracks theory. It's slightly harder to work out whether the Light predates all the others as we don't have enough info. There's also a logic problem to some degree (probably beyond human comprehension) in that if all of those beings (Outsiders, Titans, Angels, TWG etc) all existed before time...there is no way to measure what/who was "first" (which becomes a meaningless concept to some degree).
One theory is that there were a bunch of Beings in a place without time and form, and one of them decided to make something in that space without consulting the others. The Creator made Reality, and Light, and a Wall to keep out the Others, whom became Outsiders.

Maybe some of the angels in Abrahamic religions predated that Creation, and maybe they were created after or in the process. For the dresdenverse, "in the process" seems likely, as they could be avatars of that which they're named.

But was Time created before Light, so that Light could travel? Or were they simultaneous? I doubt we'll ever get that granular, but there are ways for angels to pre-exist, or at least be twinsies with, time.

Agreed. I can't see Balor needing more energy...but then again maybe it's all about how much you can take with you. If you want access to you're full energy you have to break reality a bit, which seems like that might attract all kinds of attention.

Don't forget that Zeus and the Mothers are ranked around the same level as the Archangels, which suggests they too likely don't have those limits. Then again, it's hard to say because we haven't seen any of them in the mortal world (as far as we know).

I have wondered about whether wizards are the decedents of gods and demigods etc. On the one hand, Jim says all mortals have the potential to wield magic and we know mortals have incredible psychic power but expressed in a totally unique way (the ability to create and shape reality with Free Will). On the other hand they seem to not be able to just dominate, and wizards seem to be apart from their less exciting kin. Maybe wizards were an attempt to combine that mortal free will and immortal power. Something in the Paranet Papers suggests the most powerful wizards basically were worshipped as gods (and I think one still was...Manco Capac or something).
I think there was WoJ that the Mothers aren't on par with the archangels on a cosmic scale, but they're on par with them on an earthly scale, because both can destroy Earth with equal results. To humans directly under them, it doesn't matter if a massive boulder or an asteroid is heavier.

But I get your point. In this scenario, Balor might be an asteroid that was whittled down to a boulder on entry into the atmosphere (i e. Earthly existence). Maybe that original power isn't within his grasp anymore, but with a bit of human shaping (i.e. worship), part of his boulder can be mined and shaped into something a bit more manageable, like iron into a sword, or a geode into a crystal that shoots death star blasts.

And now Harry is in possession of said item. How reassuring.  :(

175
DF Spoilers / Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« on: June 20, 2021, 04:16:30 AM »
Hmm. Not sure that adds up totally with Raith...unless he was the centrepiece of all their plans. Raith could be the anchor for all three Walkers. But I would assume he would be stronger. Clearly they also possess other bodies too and he shows no sign of being possessed by Before or Behind. 

Sadly I put this down to inconsistencies in the writing itself as much as in-universe reasons. Jim isn't immune to the main problem of fantasy story telling: there is always a trade-off between consistency of established in-universe rules and conventions, and the conventions of writing itself. Yes, great writers seem to get it right more often but none of them get it right all the time, and not even most of the time. It's a very difficult thing.

The in-universe reasons you gave are as good as any. There is a bit of magic feather stuff with Harry.

Also just as an aside I meant Blood Rites not Death Masks before, totally forgot that book was in there.
I don't mean that he's possessed by all of them. I mean after spending millennia hoping mortals would summon them in ways that would give the Walkers the free rein to do what they need to do, they've suddenly got a willing partner in young Lord Rath.

Raith makes the bargain with Beside. In return, he's safer than any other Wamp, and with the knowledge and power at his disposal, he becomes King.

In return, all he had to do was allow Beside to bond part of his power to Raith (back-seat possession). Then, either with Raith's willing cooperation or by subtle unknown manipulation, Beside has Raith summon Before and Behind whenever they're banished or killed.

Suddenly the Walkers are a nightmare for the guardians of reality, who can never seem to find a way to get rid of them. They seem to be everywhere, and take on the appearance of an all-seeing, all-powerful Nemesis.

No-one ever suspects the White King, because he's a paragon of stability and order. He keeps things the way they've always been, and he doesn't rock the boat. Nemesis is known for causing chaos in its infiltration, and there's no chaos there.

Beside just rides his coattails, using him as a catspaw in the long game for centuries.

Right up until Maggie realizes his secret. Then it all falls apart. She threatens to out him, so he threatens Thomas. She agrees to keep his secret, but leaves. Then she feels a curse coming at her and suspects Raith, or wants to protect Thomas, so she uses her prepared death curse to geld him.

Now Raith can't feed, so he stops using magic that he can't replenish. He stops summoning Outsiders, and has to train mortals like DuMorne and Cowl and Madge how to do it instead.

Then Raith is made into a puppet, and there's no more summoning or training. But Beside still has him as an anchor to reality, and might have the ability to take control of him if need be. He doesn't, because once he does, the risk of discovery goes up. So he just bides his time and uses other puppets.

176
DF Spoilers / Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« on: June 19, 2021, 11:47:21 PM »
That...makes a lot of sense. I really like it. I have no idea if Jim will do that but I like it.

Only snag is that magic seems totally negated on Lord Raith, whereas the Before and Behind are still a little vulnerable to magic. I am not sure why Beside's central host body (Lord Raith in your theory) would be more protected than the others.
I can speculate that more effort went into Raith's protection than normal host bodies, simply because of the importance of having that anchor in reality. If another Before, Beside, or Behind demon is banished, it's no big deal, because Raith can summon them back. He's the King to protect at all costs, so they put a little extra juice into it.

As for Harry's power failing against him in Blood Rites, it could be that the protection lies beyond the mortal dimension, and Harry's power never hit the moving parts; it just hit the void that shunts the magic off to wherever it won't harm Raith.

But it could also be due to the inconsistency of Harry's starborn power. He killed Behind as a teenager without knowing he couldn't; he couldn't shake off Before's whammy in Blood Rites on his own, but he could after he was told he could and with Lash's help; he hit Before with fire in Mac's bar and Before deflected most of arguably the most powerful shot we've seen Harry throw at that point; Harry hits Sith with power that just sends him flying; then he one-shots Before with a gun and power to the head, destroying the host body and sending Before running while screaming in agony.

Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't.

177
DF Spoilers / Re: Was Maggie an OG black Council member?
« on: June 19, 2021, 11:15:46 PM »
Depends on what the goals were. Are they trying to change the status quo in the world or defeat the Outsiders, or both?

Could well be right about the plot. Hard to see why else Harry came along.
It could have started with Margaret learning of Winter's purpose, and seeing the Gates for herself. She decided she could play a role in ending the eternal conflict, and reached out to those she thought were powerful enough to help her do that. She assumed that everyone had a line they wouldn't cross, and that line was working with Outsiders.

Everyone nods and agrees with her, but enough are plotting for themselves. She learns of it, panics when she realizes she could hand over a weapon that could destroy reality rather than save it, and she runs.

178
DF Spoilers / Re: Was Maggie an OG black Council member?
« on: June 19, 2021, 10:22:30 PM »
The only problem with that theory Griff is that Maggie seems a bit naive in that scenario. Surely he would know at least Raith and Ariana, and any such dark beings, would wants to break the system for their own ends. No, I think Maggie got recruited to a group who she thought were going to improve the world by breaking a few eggs. A greater good type thing. Probably Cowl or someone like him was in charge. Cowl does already have a history of recruiting idealists. But when Maggie realized it was never anything more than a power grab/chance to cause chaos - she ran. Maybe also because she knew how horrible the end game was and decided she had to stop it. Who knows.
I don't think she would think they'd do it altruistically. But I think she thought they'd all be on-board with winning that war once and for all. Because nobody would work with Outsiders, that's just crazy.

But then she found out that Raith himself is Mister Outsider Fan Numero Uno, and the rest didn't want to seal them out so much as control them (Raith and DuMorne both summoning Behind seems like a team training exercise). So she bailed on the plot.

(Which I still think the plot was an effort to create a starborn. One that she wanted to use to defeat the Outsiders, and they wanted to use to control the Outsiders)

179
DF Spoilers / Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« on: June 19, 2021, 10:15:10 PM »
Why do you think He Who Walks Beside? I assumed it was Behind if anything because that's the one he summons in Death Masks (I think).

Agree about the curse. I think that Death Masks actually says that's how Maggie made the curse stick. I suspect the reason the Hunger wasn't protected is because like all such deals, they're often never as good as they seem. Maybe the Outsider's wanted to leave a vulnerability to a potential competitor. Maybe they can't protect the Hunger at all. Impossible to say without more information.
I asked JB on Twitter a few years back if the human body Before was using in Cold Days was what was left of Vitto Malvora after the battle in Raith Deeps. He tongue-in-cheek said it was. (The mental whammy Vitto used and the mental whammy Before used were almost identical, so it fits).

I'm not sure that Behind needs a host body. He didn't seem to have one in the Ghost Story flashback. He temporary used Marge as one to communicate in Blood Rites, but then evacuated it and hasn't been seen since.

It makes sense to me that Before and Behind both use just one body at a time, but Beside uses multiple. And what better body to use than a Wamp that thinks he's using you for protection, when he's actually unknowingly providing you with the ultimate safe body to hide in.

And Beside being "trapped" in Raith's shell gives a deeper purpose to Cowl and Vitto/Before going all out to take over the Wamps in Blood Rites. They were basically trying to free him (assuming he was trapped in the body and couldn't leave due to the nature of the deal with Raith).

180
DF Spoilers / Re: Was Maggie an OG black Council member?
« on: June 19, 2021, 08:59:39 PM »
I still think "Black Council" is too misleading of a term for the bad guys' alliance(s).

I think Maggie was a founding member of a group that included herself, DuMorne, Raith, Arianna, almost Eb, and others. I think she wanted the group to break the rules to accomplish noble goals. I think they wanted to break the rules for selfish goals. When she realized that, she tried to get out.

I think it disbanded after Maggie's death since she was the driving force, but mortal members of that group ended up forming a wizard-only group that became the "Black Council". They kept their contacts with the other factions and worked together when needed for common gain.

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