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Messages - Second Aristh

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166
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 22, 2021, 05:57:29 AM »
One thing to note is that Harry said something about Alfred being an Elemental when being attacked by the Lady's.  Vulnerable to elemental magic?  I don't remember.  But it may be a clue
The fae are the collective nature spirits of the world's cultures.  As a genus loci, Alfred isn't too far away from that realm.  As rulers of those nature spirits, the Ladies had some limited amount of Authority they could use to influence the genus loci.  Not enough to be definitive or give commands to it, but the one of the Ladies probably stood a better chance than say the Archive would.  Even though she has a similiar magnitude of power.

167
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 05:48:51 AM »
One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders....  Listen could be that person.  He's a Starborn....  Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis.  Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".
Listen is more likely than Justine, but I still don't like him for it.  You don't insert creatures famously associated with time travel into a story without there being time travel involved.

As a side note, starborn isn't a subcategory of wizard, is it?  We've never seen Listen throw around any magic.

168
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 03:52:48 AM »
What are the motivations of Nemesis then in your estimation?  Back to your point of Justine being rid of Harry, physically maybe, but that in no way makes her rid of him.  No, I think Harry's cut reaction is dead on to Justine's reaction, "does Lara know?"  Sorry that isn't normal, especially when you add what Eb says about a star born like Harry and why he poses a danger to Outsiders, he can see through their crap!  That is why the boat trip ultimately fails for Nemesis, when it is calm, even though exhausted, Harry finally sees through her.  Justine also knows to bring Lara in not because she will help Thomas, but because she will be sympathetic to her!  Lara won't be able to see through Justine, but Harry has that ability, she needs Lara to take her side. Which she does and insists that Harry take her to Thomas on the boat.
Nemesis wants to end reality.  After it sent Thomas to kill Etri, it was only a matter of time before Harry figured out Justine was the culprit.  Physically being rid of him for a couple hours was fine at that point.
"Does Lara know?" isn't that far out there (with the caveat that it was a Nemesis screw up in actuality).  It's understandable that Lara would come to mind for Justine as someone she worked with daily and who she knows loves Thomas as well.


You are totally ignoring the fact that we are now talking about infected Justine... Infected Justine who admits on the boat that she worked to get pregnant to set Thomas up.  In short, she is no longer playing with a full deck, an insane person still has free will, it might not be rational, but as a mortal she is free to call up the Cornerhounds. 
So you're saying that Justine had an episode of insanity and was tricked by Nemesis into summoning outsiders?  Sorry, I don't buy that either.


Think Justine of the boat trip at the end of Battle Ground, not sweet Justine of the earlier books.  At the beginning of the trip she was so sweet so concerned about Thomas, she hugs Harry.. Then she asks why he did what he did?  Then she questions Harry and sort of confesses "Were they trying to use us,against him?" Us? As in her and the baby? Who was?  Then Harry goes to rest because he is exhausted. He starts to replay all of what had happened in his mind.  1] That Thomas had been trying to say Justine.  Not calling out the name of his love, but that she made him do it. 2] Then he returns to the scene in the apartment,

The sweet Justine kind of melts away, just that quick.. Oh the body is there and the beautiful face, but it isn't her at all.  Then He Who Walks Beside, explains who he is and his mission, which should answer all your questions as to why Outsiders aren't summoned up as armies to get it over with it just isn't their style... They'd rather go about it this way;
Outsiders want to end reality.  They don't particularly care how it comes about.  "Not their style" isn't convincing.

The reason that Nemesis is sneaky is because forcing mortals to summon an unstoppable army of outsiders isn't an option, i.e. forcing Justine to summon the cornerhounds isn't an option.

169
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 21, 2021, 11:23:16 PM »
It isn't random for starters.  I reread the whole section over again, to begin with Harry's "Spidy Star Born" sense perked up when Justine reacted "rationally" not "emotionally" to the news about Thomas.  "Does Lara know?" Not, "Oh my God is Thomas okay?"  Or anything like that.. At that point he had nothing to go on, just that her reaction seemed off.. Then in the next chapter when the Cornerhounds are actually called up, Harry states that only a mortal can call an Outsider up.  So guess who? Justine.  Justine wasn't rid of Harry, he had left her apartment, but she was still very much on his mind, if for no other reason than to protect her, that is why he hired Mr Grey.  Justine knew she'd remain on Harry's mind, no,no, she wasn't rid of him... But she did try to get rid of him via the Cornerhounds.
What isn't random?  Who said random? 

Justine reacted rationally first, then broke down.  It's a little weird (but I don't think totally abnormal in reality), and it pings in Harry's mind as smart and that he had underestimated her.  Then he leaves to do his investigation around her building.  At that point, Justine has some breathing room; she's rid of Harry for a few hours.  If Justine does nothing (and Eb hadn't shown up), Harry doesn't find anything and goes to talk to Lara instead of getting patched up by Butters then talking to Lara.  Nothing significant changes in the plot if Nemesis doesn't make a move there compared to summoning cornerhounds.  That's my point in that it doesn't fit Nem!Justine's motivations well.


The answer to your second question is no, Nemesis can't just go around "forcing mortals" to call Outsiders up here, there, and everywhere.... It doesn't work that way, there has to be cooperation and a motive for a mortal to do it..  The mortal might be playing with the occult like Madge was, then Lord Raith tempted her further.  The one that doesn't fit is Maeve, since she wasn't a mortal, but I suppose Cowl and Kumori counts as mortal and presenting Lea with the infected Knife was as good as calling up an Outsider since it was a Nemesis delivery system.  Which should also answer your question about why there was no summons on mass, stealth was needed to pull it off.. Thus Maeve was too far gone before Mab found out and managed to gain the island before it's defenses were fully employed.
So if you think Nemesis needs cooperation and motive for a mortal to summon outsiders, and you think Justine summoned the cornerhounds, you're saying that Justine is willingly cooperating with Nemesis against Harry?  I don't buy that at all.

I don't think Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders either, including Justine.  If it could, the cloak and dagger strategy of getting hooks into the various supernatural nations it uses is needlessly complicated.  It could just use mortals to quietly summon an army of outsiders through the Outer Gates then take over directly.

170
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 21, 2021, 09:40:50 PM »
But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry.  Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves.  You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling.  However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..
Justine was already rid of Harry for a bit before the cornerhounds came.  My issue was with the idea that Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders.  If it could do that, then the Outer Gates are not really much of an obstacle.  In that case, Nemesis needs to grab a few wizards, find a deep hole, and start summoning outsiders by the thousands.  It doesn't need to pop open Demonreach or unbalance the faerie courts.

171
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 21, 2021, 07:21:39 PM »
I understand the significance of the Hounds.  The point is who is traveling and why. You suggested Eb.  But it's the same as Nemfections.  If everybody is nemfected then sooner or later the story falls apart in contradictions. My thinking is if time travel is involved then the traveler will always be Harry in some form or the other. But which form?

In this case having Justine summoning or causing to be summoned, the Hounds, then why?  Jim has had multiple Outsiders on the page at least once in Cold Days, right? But why the Hounds specifically? The same for Eb.
I suggested future!Harry was being chased in the time travel book, not Eb.  He used his past self to give himself breathing room in that book.  We just won't find out about the details for a few books. 

In PT the cornerhounds served as a way to delay Eb and Harry having their final confrontation, as a way to tease out starborn information, and as a mid-book action scene to ramp up tension.  For the plot though, the cornerhound attack doesn't really fit any character's motivations well.

172
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 21, 2021, 05:49:52 AM »
Maeve and Lord Raith are examples of those who could manipulate a vanilla mortal to call up an Outsider.  Justine was infected/possessed, but she still is a mortal, so she could be manipulated to do it by HWWB.  Or heck I guess she may have even been able to manipulate the doorman if he had any talent at all to call the Cornerhounds up/
But not by Nemesis, otherwise that would be the go-to strategy instead of the current one. 

The doorman doesn't even get a name in the text.  I don't think he's an important character.




If it wasn't Justine then why then and why there? The Former attack was meant to do what it did. There was no reason that I can think of that would have brought them. Early.
Butters is the one that gives us the clue to what's going on with the cornerhounds.  He calls them the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos.  The important line of the wiki page:  "A person risks attracting their attention by traveling through time."  It's the time travel book intersecting with PT in the background.  Whoever summoned them or whatever attracted their attention is in that book, not PT.

173
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 21, 2021, 05:38:48 AM »
Oh I missed that!  Ok I'm really leaning towards Griff's theory.  Especially since Maeve said it was ironic that Mac would die on the Island (where in theory his grace is being used to power it).  Another possibility could be that the Angels watched the Outer Gates and also set up the Demon Reach prison.  They then handed over responsibility to mortal kind.  Mac could have been the angelic Warden of the place.

That could also be true.  I was reading about the Gates of Heaven (I think there are 3).  Perhaps one of them leads to the Outside and it was Mac who as an Angel watched the Outer Gates.
I think it's also interesting that Mab calls Raphael the Demon Binder (I think it was in SmF?).  There are alternative explanations, but if you're gonna call something a demon binder in the DV, somebody giving the juice for Demonreach is probably a good fit for the nickname.

174
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 21, 2021, 12:50:51 AM »
No, I don't think Nemesis can hijack free will of a mortal.  However a mortal can be manipulated into calling up an Outsider by someone with an agenda like Lord Raith or Maeve.
Okay, but they weren't around Justine in PT?  I'm lost.

175
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 20, 2021, 11:12:55 PM »
I think he was the original Gate Keeper.

@groinkick

Quote
“You!” Sharkface snarled. “You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 229). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I mean, Sharkface literally calls Mac empty and talks about grace in that line.  Pretty strong evidence of an angelic vessel that's given away Grace for a purpose.    :)

176
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 20, 2021, 10:40:47 PM »
Consider this may be one of the main reasons why no one even Mab speaks it's name very much, they don't want to give anyone any ideas..  And the question was who summoned the Cornerhounds in the story, Justine makes the most sense, though as I said there was also a doorman mentioned as the other mortal in the area.  We are also told that Nemesis can only be in thirteen bodies at once, there might also be a limit as to how many Outsiders can be called up at once as well.  At the end of Cold Days, when they attacked the island, if an army of Outsiders could have been called up, that would have been the time to do it.
Justine makes the most sense if you ignore the other books in the series.  It just doesn't fit with wider context of the capabilities of Nemesis how we understand them.  That points to more we aren't aware of happening in the background of the story.

The 13 bodies for Nemesis is just my speculation, but we know that Nemesis does have limits to its capabilities.

Looking back at CD, they did kinda call up an army of outsiders.  It took the Wild Hunt to stop them from getting to the island proper even without Maeve stepping in directly.  I just don't think Nemesis can hijack the free will of a mortal in order to call outsiders in itself.  It needs to be more subtle and trick mortals into doing it instead of strong-arming them.

177
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 20, 2021, 09:55:16 PM »

Why does there have to be?  Nemesis infects with a strategy in mind, who it sends knows this.  HWWB is a good soldier, I doubt he'd go rouge and allow his mortal host to summon up Cornerhounds "just because.."  Also note that their mission appeared to be specific, get Harry and along with him Eb if they could.. When they failed they went back to where ever.  Justine called them up for a purpose, to distract and stop Harry..  Harry even says it would take a mortal in the area to call them up if I remember correctly.  If I did remember that correctly, that was a neon sign, screaming, "CLUE!"  It's Justine.  Unless it was the doorman, that is still possible.
The goal of the Outsiders is to end reality, and the Outer Gates defend reality.  Only mortals can summon Outsiders (so they get a free pass to skip the Gates).  In the situation where Nemesis can use a mortal host to summon outsiders, why not use that and go around reality's defenses to further the goal of destroying reality? 

I mean, it would make sense from the narrow perspective of PT for Justine to have summoned cornerhounds (sweeping any questions of magical ability for that under the rug for now), but in the wider world of Dresden, it doesn't fit what we're told about the nature of the Outer Gates.

178
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 20, 2021, 07:18:09 PM »
Surely there is some kind of limitation for Nemfected mortals from summoning Outsiders.  Otherwise, Nemesis's strategy doesn't make sense. It could hole up somewhere and summon an army right around the Outer Gates.  I don't think Justine is a likely candidate for summoning the cornerhounds to our reality.

179
the spies do not have to be Svaltalves. Did Harry have a spy in the White Court? Sure he did - Justine. The White Court didn't find her. She left when it was clear she was Nemfected.  The Black Council had their agent in the White Council - LaFortier (plus others).  Cowl had his agent in the White Court - Vitto Malvora. As for what happened on Demonreach - doesn't Lara have an organization? Vadderrung does - Monoc Securities. We know Lara employs humans - security, medical, Justine... Vadderung may as well. Reports get filed, and files get leaked. People who get secrets sell secrets. Money is power, and power corrupts.

Look at real life - Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were not Russians, were not present at atomic tests, and were Russian spies passing atomic secrets.
Idk, the svartalves don't seem the type to place spies.  They're very by-the-book.

Regardless, there were 4.5 people present near Demonreach at the end of PT.  Harry, Lara, Justine, Murphy, and technically Thomas.  Which one of them is gonna talk about what happened there?  Not Harry, not Lara, and definitely not Murphy.  It would all depend on Freydis, and if anyone she'd tell Vadderung.  I don't think he'd tell either.  The events on the island will stay secret.

180
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 19, 2021, 11:38:02 PM »
I think the cornerhounds are a clue that future!Harry is doing something in the background of PT.    Future!Harry can catch a breather in the time travel book by confusing the cornerhounds into going after his younger self.  Since it already happened, it's a relatively safe option.  Basically the time travel equivalent of the classic heat seeking missile ploy. 

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