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Messages - dragoonbuster

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151
DFRPG / Re: Renfields
« on: September 26, 2015, 09:22:54 PM »
That said, Harry was in a desperate situation there and was in enough pain that he couldn't have been thinking clearly. On top of that he has played pretty fast and loose with the Laws in general. I wouldn't be surprised if Renfields kept enough of their soul to count as mortal, albeit ones that are better off dead. Still very much a matter of debate, however.

It's a pet theory of mine that Harry has broken multiple Laws over the course of the series and has been tainted for it. Not enough to make him Capital E Evil, but enough to warp his perception of life, death and his own power. This combined with the stress and trauma of being a Warden, and the calamities that seem to follow him around on a yearly basis has served to turn him into a hardened killer who doesn't sweat it when he toes the line of breaking the Laws, and who is much more likely to apply violence as a solution to his problems.

Fair enough.

As far as your theory, I have the same/agree. You've also left out the Winter Mantle, which is constantly whispering-to-yelling in his ear to kill, plus his experience with Lea and then Lash and then Mab...oh yeah, he's not the same guy he was in Storm Front. He's good about not breaking many different Laws but he's certainly done a ton of killing with his magic. I think there are lawbreaking offenses and Lawbreaking offenses; Harry mostly only does the former, but they still matter. He wonders and worries over it all the time, and has said specifically: if you kill things with magic, you're more inclined to kill things later to solve your problems. He justifies his killing...but of course, don't pretty much all monsters justify what they do?

I'm not going so far as to say Harry's become a Monster yet...but he's not the White Knight he originally tended towards, either.

152
DFRPG / Re: Renfields
« on: September 26, 2015, 07:57:35 PM »
^ Pretty much that.

The way I see it:

- Renfields viewed under the Sight are monsters and completely inhuman; they have had their free will burned out of their psyches by Black Court and replaced with bloodlust and rage.

- have had their free will burned out <-- that's the key phrase. You can't break a Law by killing a vampire or a Fae because they ostensibly have no free will.

- Harry killed the Renfields in Mavra's by using wind or a spirit shield (I forget) to blast their napalm back at them...that act has been debated up and down the forum but I say if it was two random mooks, Harry's got another Lawbreaker notch in his belt--Harry knew for a fact, or was as sure as he could be, that those men would burn to death before casting that spell. Therefore the only thing keeping him from being a Lawbreaker is that they aren't considered Mortal for the purposes of Lawbreaking.

Of course....Wardens will have a problem with you if you thrall them for yourself, might not be okay with the "free will" argument, etc.

Go with what the table consensus is.

153
DFRPG Resource Collection / Re: Sponsored Magic Master List
« on: September 26, 2015, 05:52:45 AM »
I thought it was high-time to have some kind of magic available for Champions of God. You can model what Michael does in combat as invocations and maneuvers and whatnot if you like...but you can also model it as special kind of magic, whether Michael sees it that way or not. Maybe this is counter to the idea of Michael merely being a Vessel for the White God to act through, but that's for you to decide. This is sort of what I think they were trying to get out of Soulfire in Your Story; this is intended to replace it and provide justification for CoG's to have a Soulfire-like effect or to justify them knowing enough magic to actually take the PP Soulfire power. Which, with some clarification of how stress can be taken to invoke Soulfire, is a better power than I originally gave it credit.

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SPONSORED MAGIC: TRUE FAITH [-5]
Description: Through a combination of training, practice, talent, and divine inspiration, you are capable of channeling your faith and conviction into achieving some miraculous effects that mimic magic; generally more experienced Champions of God or particularly devout True Believers are who are capable of this.
Sponsor: A Higher Power; one in which you have True Faith in.
Agenda: This varies, but for the traditional Champions of the White God this Agenda (and most of these Sponsor's in general) has to do with fighting agents of darkness/evil, and opposing anything that attempts to affect the free will of, kill, or enslave mortals.
Evocation: You are capable of expressing True Faith with evocation-like effects; these generally appear as white light and/or cleansing fire.
Thaumaturgy: With the power of your faith it is possible perform Thaumaturgy related to combating the enemies to free will. As such it may be possible to divine information related to a Righteous cause, banish/exorcise/bind/erect wards against the Unholy, worldwalk in pursuit of your Calling, and disrupt magic or the links between a mortal and its source of power, etc. Psychomancy in the form of inciting awe in the Unholy is also possible.
Evothaum: All Thaumaturgy granted by True Faith magic can be case with Evocation's methods and speed.
Extra Benefits: All spells cast with True Faith magic automatically meet the criteria for the Catch on anything vulnerable to Holy or True Faith. You gain a +1 to the power/complexity/control of any spell that is defensive/protective in nature, and the toughness of all creatures--whether vulnerable to Holy or not--is downgraded by one rank.
Note: If you also take Soulfire, this power's cost is reduced to -4 only. Like other Sponsored Magics, this one provides 4 Focus Item slots. If you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy, you get a +1 rebate to this power for each of them you have. When appropriate, this ability's +1 bonus to defensive spells may stack with Soulfire's +1 power bonus to Making Things.

Thoughts?

154
DFRPG / Re: The Take-Out Chain Game
« on: September 24, 2015, 04:16:41 AM »
Targeted with a lock of hair, the spell eats your luscious locks and leaves you bald.  You run away in embarrassment.

Next: A Summer Faerie hits you with a 12 shift Biomancy evothaum attack

The raspberry seeds just beginning to digest in your stomach suddenly begin to grow into several full-size bushes from inside your body, using your body for nutrients . Better luck next time.

8 shift Divination take-out that also involves a rabbit.

155
DFRPG / Re: The Dresden Files Accelerated Playtest Is Open
« on: September 16, 2015, 05:27:48 PM »
Rejected as well.

156
DFRPG / Re: help with character based on music
« on: September 15, 2015, 04:53:35 PM »
And Id further challenge the interpretation that all mental effects shown in the books are Lawbreaking.  Sleep spells are common (if Grey) as are Avoidance Spells.  Mouse's Emergency Bark affects their minds (waking them up alert and energetic).  The Merlin used a large scale mental communication spell complete with video-game style Minimap. Harry's Love Potion #9 in SK.  Molly uses illusions all the time.  Post-TC mental defense training.  All of these are mental effects, and none of them are Illegal.  The line for the two relevant Laws are: Actual mental penetration without permission (ie mind-reading) and that can still medically be done without harm (if you are good enough, like any surgery), and Thralldom as in fully dominating the Will of the target (as opposed to more gentle and resistible influence which is allowed)

I'm referring to specifically "inciting emotions/invading a mind" in my discussion and that doesn't include all mental effects. There's a difference between a "mental effect" and forcing your way inside someone's head; some of these examples are certainly walking the line like the love potion...and I believe that's an outlier as it seems like Butcher has changed a few rules about how Lawbreaking works and how evocation works after the first book or two. With the discussion later in the books regarding Laws and their relationship to Free Will, the love potion certainly is counter to free will.

And there's the Grey area of the Dormius spell that is a gentle calming hypnotic suggestion more than a "GO TO SLEEP" forced effect. Avoidance spells are certainly Grey but still aren't the same as getting inside someone's head to me; they send out a psychic wave of "hey, you should pay attention to something else..." not "YOU CAN'T LOOK AT ME."

Others, like the mental communication--a mental shout out across a room (that presumably could have been blocked out by the other wizards if they wished and Langtry wouldn't have forced his way past said defense) is not the same as getting into someone's head and whispering Kill yourself over and over in someone's subconscious (or what-have-you).

As far as Mouse's Bark, I'd be willing to bet that people who hear it are a bit off and jumpy for a couple days, but whether or not that's true the effect was described more as a counter-effect to the magic already being worked than an additional mental assault as far as I recall.

The Corpsetaker commented on the Council's mental defense tactics as being crap and outdated because the WC won't "press" you very hard in teaching you those defenses...and then they don't actually break into your mind and root around if you fail--if they did, they'd cause problems; IIRC Harry and Molly basically play mental capture the flag or something (and their preparations were more intense than the usual).

Molly's illusions don't cloud people's minds any more than a Fae's Glamour does--they magically alter the way light interacts with objects, not how your brain interprets that light.

As far as "surgical mind reading" there's no evidence that it doesn't still leave lasting damage since the only example I recall is Molly reading Morgan and he died shortly afterward so we don't know. Assuming it's flawless in terms of direct damage--it's still an invasion of privacy, revocation of free will, and if the victim is aware of what happens (which they will subconsciously at least) they still has a high chance of psychological issues whether they're directly induced or not because "someone was fiddling with my brain" is tough to get over for the average mortal.

Thralldom can be "gentle" as well and whether you punch someone in the brain or just squeeze your fingers into it slowly, you're still doing something awful to them...Elaine was a Fine Thrall and it took her years to get over it. Whether you can resist someone's mental influence or not, you can't use magic to make them do things or you're going to damage them whether it's total domination or not. Molly certainly didn't "fully dominate" her friends to turn off their addiction but she drove one completely insane and the other might recover after years. "Allowed" spells of that nature like sleep spells are, as far as I interpret it, allowed on willing subjects only and still only a light brush across the psyche. Harry's Dormius spell wouldn't have worked on someone who didn't want to get to sleep already and forcing it on them would've been Bad for them (and Lawbreaking for Harry).

157
DFRPG / Re: help with character based on music
« on: September 14, 2015, 07:11:59 AM »
I don't think it's very much like rape.

Yes, it is too large of a leap. Not all damaging things are rape. In fact, the vast majority absolutely aren't.

"Rape" is a word, much like "retarded," has a somewhat broad definition but has come to be used almost exclusively to mean one thing in common usage. Given that every single instance of inciting emotions/invading a mind in the books has been explicitly defined as a personal violation, violent, and destructive to the victim's psyche (on an often permanent basis, though you sometimes can learn to cope with such changes) makes "mindrape" an accurate word to me, insofar as I interpret how worming your way into someone's mind works in the books. (The main exception to this that I can think of is Thomas' work at the hair salon, but he's still invading their psyche and stealing their life-force, just a tiny bit at a time to minimize his impact as much as he can. The argument "it makes them feel good" when it comes to inciting lust has been compared solidly to arguing in favor of giving drugs to a drug addict in my eyes and I won't rehash it.) If your position is really that using rape in a different way that the common usage somehow diminishes the seriousness of rape or the damage it does to victims, I'd argue you're wrong, but this is not the forum for that discussion. Since I'm not out to offend people with my word choice:

Music incites emotion.  Naturally.  It's pretty innate in humanity so I don't see how having incite emotion would be that terrible.    It's just a mechanical way of representing a very skillful, supernatural music. 

It all depends on how you narrate take outs.

I'd say the Devil's Gifts are Tainted and using full-on Incite Emotion is still an invasion of someone's mind and a Bad Thing.

In the books, there's isn't a single instance that I can recall where such a thing wasn't a personal violation, violent, and destructive to the victim's psyche (on an often permanent basis, though you sometimes can learn to cope with such changes). This is certainly the case with and point of Lasting Incite Emotion, at the very least. The main exception to this that I can think of is Thomas' work at the hair salon, but he's still invading their mind and stealing their lifeforce, just a tiny bit at a time to minimize his impact. The argument "it makes them feel good" when it comes to inciting lust has been compared solidly to arguing in favor of giving drugs to a drug addict in my eyes and I won't rehash it.

Since the book (which I understand is not canon) says "Dark or morally “corrupt” emotions (lust, wrath, despair, and others) are the usual ones available," and this is a fiddle made by the Devil himself, using its power to force an emotion from someone is inherently tainted and a Bad Thing. Music can elicit an emotional response from people--but not every piece of music does this for everyone, the emotions people feel when they listen to the same song can from person to person, and the emotional response you get from listening to music isn't based on whether you're incredibly Disciplined or not. Furthermore, the intensity of the emotions they feel isn't determined by the musician (via the value of the roll in our game) but their own personal psychological response to the music they're hearing. The musician's skill obviously does affect this, but it does not define it.

Unless there's a legend about this outside of the Charlie Daniel's Band song that I don't know about: Johnny wasn't looking to get better at the fiddle, he boasted he was the best fiddler ever. This drew the Devil, as such boasts are wont to do, who bet Johnny he wasn't the best, and enticed him with a fiddle of pure gold (which, by the way, would weigh at least 18 kg/40 lbs using standard violin construction, and sound terrible...but this is magic :D). Unlike something like the Crossroads stories, this one isn't a trade of soul for skill, it's just an instrument the Devil played...and the Devil gifting a cursed Fiddle that grants power at the expense of that power hurting those around you whether you want it to or not sounds right up his alley.

That's just where my thoughts are with this item. The truth doesn't have to follow the legend completely, and you're welcome to interpret Incite Emotion differently and/or allow emotions that aren't "dark and morally corrupt" if you want to. You could build a hundred different variant fiddles and not break the surface of possibility.

158
DFRPG / Re: help with character based on music
« on: September 12, 2015, 09:13:29 PM »
I disagree.  He made a deal with he devil to be a great fiddler.  Part of what makes a deal worth makin is the promise of happiness.  And Joy is an excellent way to tempt people - especially if it's mixed with revelry. 

I'd just have a good aspect attached to it so that anything good can be compelled to turn to shit.

That's a reasonable point--but I'd say the Devil's Gifts are Tainted and using full-on Incite Emotion is still mindrape. Maybe you attach a Stunt to it too, for a +2 on Performance with the fiddle (that might too broad a case, but you get my point). That wouldn't be tainted but for Compels for things to go wrong.

The seven deadly sins, great idea. Though all at once might be a bit much, so you could start with only 1 sin if refresh is tight and build up to that. 1 refresh should be affordable in any case.

Heh, thanks. It's not exactly the SDS; I omitted Greed and Gluttony for Fear and Despair. And of course dropping emotions/sins is absolutely possible. Starting with 1 emotion and full upgrade costs -2 (-3 with the above mentioned stunt), which is a good price for what it is.

EDIT: You might also be able to justify a custom Modular Abilities for the emotions/sins with a fixed list instead of paying for each one separately.

159
DFRPG / Re: help with character based on music
« on: September 12, 2015, 09:01:05 PM »
I agree with dragoon on the joy part. Joy doesn't really fit. It might be something in the same area, but still vastly different. Something like a drug high, maybe, that feels really good, but is far from being the actual thing.

Ecstasy. That's the word we want.

160
DFRPG / Re: help with character based on music
« on: September 12, 2015, 08:46:33 PM »
This is a great idea. Take different emotions based on what kind of music you are playing.

Invoke sadness, joy, fear etc...

Given it's the Devil's Fiddle, I'm not sure invoking joy is on the menu :P

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+2 rebate
-0 Summonable Bow
-10 Potent Lasting Emotion At Range (Fear, Wrath, Despair, Lust, Sloth, Envy, Pride)

This is what popped into my head.

161
DFRPG / Re: Create water and earth?
« on: September 10, 2015, 06:51:34 AM »
You can't combust air. There is nothing to combust there. The air gives you the oxidizer (oxygen), but you need something else to oxidize. Anyways, not a chemistry lesson; I don't think the game (and the Dresdenverse) was ment to treat fire magic solely as "a magic that lets you move ionized gas around". So, in the Dresdenverse, fire has to be an actual THING, just like air, water, earth and spirit.

"Combust" as a technical term is rapid burning of fuel in the presence of oxygen so technically speaking, no, "air" on its own generally can't combust through normal means because there isn't a high enough fuel/oxy ratio...but this is magic. You can come up different explanations for how it's done at a molecular level but at the end of the day, using magic to bend rules like localized entropy and enthalpy, it's not hard to affect "combustion" of the air (which isn't only oxygen, CO2, and nitrogen...) to create a ball of actual fire, whereas unless you're in a REALLY dusty place, you're not going to pull earth from the air. And no, fire magic can't be used only do that, but it's the most common use.

Of course, earth is still available in many places and it's rare to lose access to it. Given the makeup of aggregate in concrete (sand, natural gravel, and crushed stone being the most common) you can get away with manipulating concrete almost as easily as straight earth. Only being high up in a building, in a plane, or being over the ocean/a lake will really ever get you away from a source of "earth" to use. You just might create a lot of property damage :)  And if you've got fire evocation as well, you can justify manipulating metals too, meaning you're able to find something to use just about anywhere civilization is.

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The question is: Rivers in the Nevernever wash away magic?

No specific word on this, but I highly doubt it. The NeverNever at it's core is whole-cloth magic. But there is a difference between mortal magic and other magic, and there's a difference between random "sustain the illusion" magic in the NN and magic guided by human will. If the human will believes the water should ground things out, that might be able to empower the summoned water enough to have it act like regular water. Who's to say? Up to the GM. At the end of the day, I think I'd leave it up to the player's desire for how their PC's magic works. They can't do anything mechanically with it that's different either way, and I've got plenty of compel options for wizards without worrying about whether they have enough of their element nearby to throw around.


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Using pure logic, if summoning water and disrupt a wizard with it where that easy, many of the wardens would do so.

Who said it was easy? Magic works totally differently for everyone based on their teaching, experiences, and belief systems. Not all elements come to all wizards equally (obviously; look at Harry vs Hernandez). Everyone has their preference. It's arguable that lightning is a far better element to attack someone is than fire due to fallout and property damage issues (when "purification" isn't an issue), but lightning doesn't come as easily to some wizards as it does to others. Harry has said he pretty much is incapable of water evocation. I get the impression--based on Hernandez's example, what we know about elements and personality types, and the nature of water in a metaphysical sense--that you've got to have a certain "go with the flow" mindset to use it well--something Wardens tend to be short on, I'm betting.

162
DFRPG / Re: Create water and earth?
« on: September 09, 2015, 11:03:58 PM »
This is a side point that Ive debated before, but fwiw I dont actually think you can unless you have a continuous source and discharge of the water; since the whole thing works on a principle of dispersing the energies, there needs to be a constant supply of new water (or huge reservoir like the Lake) to give that energy somewhere to go.  Otherwise you arent diluting and dispersing anything. 
Fair enough, that's up to the DM of the table at this point.  I think that so long as it is still empowered to be water it would act in all way as water, including that aspect, but I dont have much to definitively say so.  I look at how Winter Ice is ectoplasm but Id expect it to count as Ice for metaphysical purposes, and how NN food can be fully metabolized into a person's cells to the point where if they live off of it for too many years they risk going splat when they return to the mortal world.  Given those two things I dont see much reason for broad qualitative differences.  But that discounts a lot of factors, not the least of which is table balance.

I treat magically-created thresholds, etc, from water evocation according to standard mechanics. Meaning they're maneuvers or Blocks. If you want to ground out an ectoplasmic construct, you need to take it out. There's no mechanical difference between any other evocation, and it maintains balance. Your point about "refreshing" the water is good, and I agree, but for short-term action that's still easily narrated IMO.

You're winning me over on the ectoplasm-as-water argument, though.

163
DFRPG / Re: Create water and earth?
« on: September 09, 2015, 10:30:34 PM »
Not sure that comparison works: Fire Magic still carries the supernatural Purifying aspect of Fire, and per WOJ Water Mages are less affected by the Grounding effects of bodies of Water.  I expect it would be /harder/ to disperse the energy with fake water, and it would take a significant volume to carry the energy away (ie. no self-contained no waterbending circles), but it would still be possible.   Harry says over and over he can use magic to call up Fire, but then it acts like Fire naturally would, unless he goes to an extra effort to further shape it or whatever; I expect a certain amount of the same principle to apply to water, so long as it's still energized to be water (which is where circle traps come in).

Fire magic creates true and honest-to-god fire, though. There's no ectoplasm involved there. With magically-manipulated but real water, you can create thresholds and stuff, I'm fine with that. The debate here is whether ectoplasmic water is metaphysically the same as water, and I just don't think it is.

EDIT: Of course, it still has the entropic properties, because that's something you can achieve through will alone. Instead of forcing a vampire back because of running water being a metaphysical barrier, it can't cross because it'll be melted. There are many paths to the top of the mountain.

164
DFRPG / Re: Create water and earth?
« on: September 09, 2015, 10:18:07 PM »
Given how Carlos' magic works, I'd say you can create earth and water from ectoplasm as needed, if you think your magic can work that way. Maybe some mages think they have to have a water source nearby. That's handled easily with compels. I have a wizard that condenses storm clouds around his body from ambient moisture when he evocates with lightning, though that's just a narrative thing and isn't the same as drawing enough moisture to dump a bucket of water on someone's head.

However, the air can carry up to 2% water vapor by volume depending on humidity. If you consider the volume of, say, a standard-ish bedroom of 10x10x8 feet...that's 800 cubic feet. By volume, assuming an average of say .75% water vapor by volume in the air, that equates to 6 cubic feet of water...which is almost 45 gallons of water. So if you're outdoors, especially if it's humid, you could potentially get a lot more right from the air. If you were in a rainforest you could create a waterfall out of thin air.

As far as conjured water working to ground out magic/act as a threshold, that's been debated up and down, but I say no. It is specifically water's intrinsic properties and metaphysical importance that has to do with it's action on the supernatural and mortal magic. If you're summoning water from ectoplasm, it's not water and you know it.

Ooh, good. Since you are playing one, how would you scale it?  Qualitatively it makes sense to me that you'd have to operate on a much smaller scale with summoned water than what you could manipulate with natural pre-existing materials, but Im not sure how to best go about implementing it.

Compel a Threshold against drawing up power, like you might in running water. A threshold of 2-4 is good, depending on the circumstances. Effectively, you're going to have to make up for less water with more power.

It's also rather surprising how often [Leaky Pipes] seem to be around PCs.

If we put this issue 100% sciency, fire is a rapid oxidation, and for that you need something to oxidize, thus creating fire from nothing means that you must create some matter, and THEN heat it up to form the chain chemical reaction so cold "fire". And by that line of thought, what you need to create gravity falls into that line too.

For fire, you're combusting the air around you. Fire can be caused by rapid oxidation, but fire is a plasma and can be created in all kinds of fun ways--all you do is strip electrons off of the molecules in the air to create it. There's no need to create matter. Magic to affect gravity doesn't involve creating matter either; it's bending physics to alter the local gravitational constant.

EDIT: Simply heating up a gas hot enough is sufficient to create a plasma at a certain point. You're just pouring energy via your will into the nearby molecules until they transition from gas to plasma. And control how/where it goes, of course. Hopefully.

165
The easy way to tell the difference between a concession and a take out is that the concession has to happen before the dice are rolled, the take out after. Also, concessions give the player as many fate points as he took in consequences, take outs do not.

Incorrect. A take-out and concession both give you FPs for each consequence you take. Either way, each consequence is considered to have been compelled towards your loss. It says so right in the book.

The way to tell the difference between a concession and a take-out is that a concession is "loser"-narrated loss condition, and a take-out is a "winner"-narrated loss condition. That's entire point of the mechanic.

EDIT: The book talks about "Cashing Out" on pg 206 of YS, for reference.

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