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Messages - Second Aristh

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151
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 24, 2021, 03:34:16 AM »
lol did you skip over the duel between Eb, and Harry?  Eb was an absolute boss, and showed no signs of being frail.  He showed the opposite.  If he'd have taken on Harry Dresden without the Winter Knight Mantle, he may very well have kicked his ass up around his ears. (I know it wasn't really Harry but you know what I mean)
Oh, Eb is still a badass that can stomp on most anyone; that's not what I'm saying.  But Eb, Listens to Wind, and Martha Liberty are given descriptions that make them seem past their prime, moreso than in previous books.  Maybe I'm reading more into what River Shoulders was saying in PT.

152
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 24, 2021, 01:32:08 AM »
Magic in the Dresdenverse still obeys the laws of physics. So any energy sink powerful enough to manipulate gravity and light and the universe itself would, in all likelihood, manipulate time as well, however minutely.

He might not be trying to create a micro black hole, and he might not be trying to manipulate time, but the former fits the description of what he did, and the latter is a likely side effect of such an energy draw.

I'm not saying it's likely that he summoned them with that and his fear, but I think it could be possible.
Fair enough, but if Eb drawing in power like that had some chance of what you say, surely Harry's giant gravity hammer in Changes would do it on a much higher scale?  Physics is physics, but sometimes the magical rule of cool wins the day.

153
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 23, 2021, 11:12:21 PM »
Uriel was acting to take back Nic's knights, so I'm not seeing this as a violation of the rules.  Nor did he just give it away and go off to run a tavern in Chicago.

I see Mac as more of a guy who got tired of angelic wars who just walked away. As long as he had his grace, and chose to use it, the placard became a keep out of death card since with his grace Mac is an immortal.
The Rules are still pretty mysterious.  I don't think it's clear that giving mortals the strength to choose to lock up the worst of the worst is outside the bounds.

Uriel got his Grace returned.  For a Mac=Raphael, that wouldn't be the case.  Might as well open a bar nearby.

154
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 23, 2021, 10:42:21 PM »
Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.
The same way Uriel did?  Give it to OG Merlin who uses it to create the prison.

155
DF Spoilers / Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« on: August 23, 2021, 10:14:38 PM »
I mean, not necessarily. The Merlin isn't equal to other Senior Council members - he's the leader. The Chairman, President, what have you. He has executive powers. He could do things the others couldn't. He might have already for all we know. Especially with emergency powers.

We know the White Council's legal system is very old fashioned and not terribly complex. We know that it isn't particularly fair and is unfairly concentrated at the top with fairly minimal checks and balances.

We also know that the Merlin is more than simply the strongest wizard (in magical terms) on the planet. He's also got the strongest political strength, the strongest political position, and he's the one who controls the White Council's financial power.

If he wanted to create some extra taskforce, he no doubt could. It would be risky, and if discovered he potentially risks a civil war, but he could do it. Not only that, but likely things would be to his advantage if he used already existing legal powers to create the task force - which he likely has. Considering what the White Council normally does, even if the Merlin were discovered before being ready, all he would have to do is convince them to go after a particular target (like Ebenezar or Christos) and he would divert the attention off of himself. More than likely the stalwarts on the Senior Council would side with him just to prevent a civil war, and throw one of their number (who might challenge it) to the wolves. Especially as by calling him out, it could potentially give the Merlin ammunition to say "Hey, they don't want me investigating because they're the bad guy!".

They threw Morgan to the wolves without blinking an eye to save the Council. The Merlin will always do what he thinks is necessary after all. Assuming they were not suspected of being black council, the Merlin would have the votes of Mai and Rashid easily. Then he only really needs to convince either Christos, Eb, Liberty, or Listens-to-Wind. LtW made it clear he would ruthlessly protect the Council if necessary so it wouldn't surprise me if he was in favor of it - especially if he wasn't on the Grey Council.

Assuming Christos didn't challenge the Merlin, he would almost certainly vote for an internal affairs taskforce whether he was black council or not. If he's black council, he gets to destabilise the Council further and could use it to rid himself of enemies. If he isn't, he would use it to strengthen his personal position. If he challenged the Merlin about it, he almost certainly would be labelled black council and executed - which would justify to the others the necessity for such a taskforce. I can't see the other SC members siding with him to take out the Merlin even if he was right about a taskforce being illegal and/or unethical - especially if they really did think he was black council, which some of them suspect, and they didn't appreciate him bullying his way onto the SC in the first place.
Legally, the Merlin no doubt does have the power to make a group with the mission of the GC.  I just don't think he has the ability to do it quietly.  Official power is loud in a bureaucracy.  Not having the secrecy defeats the mission before it starts, though.

156
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 23, 2021, 09:56:37 PM »
I'm close to that, but without tapping the Well to power it. I don't think there's a need for that if the build with the Grace was done correctly, and if it was an archangel's Grace.

If Michael borrowed a jumbo jet to use as a pen light, then I think Merlin borrowed a jet liner, tore the wings off, shoved the fuselage in the ground, stuffed it full of inmates, and used the engines to eject their oxygen up and out so they're too weak to try to escape, took a pre-existing shepherd of the land and gave it control in the cockpit, and slapped a headset on it, told it to obey whatever the person on the other end said to do, and gave it the ability to pick who was worthy of holding the other headset.

Admittedly that's being a bit literal with the analogy, but still.

Meanwhile the former pilot is Out of a job based on the Choice he made. All he was left with was the drink cart, so he wandered off and opened a bar.
Yeah, close enough.  I can get behind that.

157
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 23, 2021, 09:54:59 PM »
Here's a thought.

Eb summoned them on accident, simply by drawing their attention by inadvertently messing with the localized flow of time.

Bending light?
Universe yawing toward him?

That's the kind of behavior one sees around a black hole.

And as we all know, dense gravity can affect the flow of time. Dense gravity that's strong enough to bend light would be way more than enough to cause gravitational time dilation.

So maybe it was less that someone sent them, and more that they were already in reality, and Eb accidentally did enough, between his power and his fear, to draw their attention.

We're so busy trying to fit the attack into the plot, when it might later be revealed that it had nothing to do with the bad guys, and everything to do with Eb losing control of his power, as others pointed out.
Eb is drawing in power.  I don't think his gravity is drawing in light (anything in the vicinity would probably be pretty smashed for gravity that strong to suddenly appear in a place).  The energy sink from Eb taking a big magical breath draws in light a bit too.

158
DF Spoilers / Re: Notes on Contagion
« on: August 23, 2021, 09:49:28 PM »
Unless those mortals were well placed - in reference to Harry. Each of them are part of significant events in his life. It could well be that Nemesis is far more focussed on Harry than we realise.
It's possible, but I don't think it's the most likely solution.  Not without more compelling evidence.


It's certainly possible Maggie was the founder. I personally think it's actually older and Kemmler founded it. But there's no way to know really until we have more information about the Black Council. Btw, do we know for sure that the Black Council think they're using Nemesis? I don't remember any conversation with a confirmed member of this still-unconfirmed organisation. We only have Harry's speculation on the whole thing. We don't have anyone saying "Hey, join our super friends team called "the Black Council" - we have great dental!". I think we have to be careful about assuming anything about the Black Council.
It's speculation, but it fits what we know so far about Maggie Sr's associates.  Kemmler is possible, but he strikes me as more of a lone megalomaniac than the guy to build a legion of doom.

I like Maggie Sr for the Circle founder because we know that she was hopping all around the world befriending some tough customers.  We also know from Luccio she was interested in changing the Laws of Magic to be more just.  That led to the famous dinner fight with Eb and some major vampire players where she tried to recruit him.  When that didn't work, she went to his best friend Simon Pietrovich, i.e. Cowl.  His apprentice Justin DuMorne follows along.  Eventually, Maggie Sr changes her mind about things and tries to pull out, and she's only mildly successful.  The rest is difficult to make guesses at without a better understanding of motives.

As far as using Nemesis, it's been around forever from what we can surmise.  For a Maggie Sr Circle, desperate for the power to try to make the world a better place, Nemesis probably seemed like a dangerous but enticing ally.  They don't want it to succeed in destroying reality, but they need its power to make the changes they think should be made to the current order.  Nemesis is using the BC to get ahead itself with the chaos of a secret powerful faction.


Did the Red Court want to avoid Empty Night? Were the ideals of the whole of the Court the same as the ideas of their most dominant faction? Did the leadership of the Court really say what they wanted?

I don't think we have any real answers to those questions. But we do know that Arianna represented a powerful faction at odds with the Red King. We know that there was at least one Lord of the Outer Night involved who wished to rule the whole Red Court.

Considering the Red Court leaders called themselves the Lords of the "Outer Night" which has been used interchangeably in the series with Outside...there is a clear connection between the two. Who says they weren't merely the agents of the Outside on Earth? The goals of the Red Court were largely unknown beyond feeding, domination and slaughter. Let alone the goals of the Red King, or whatever internal faction Arianna was a part of etc.

We just don't know if the Red Court really wanted the Masquerade to continue. In point of fact, part of the reason to remove the Wizards was to begin a free-for-all hunting season on humanity.
I don't think "Outer Night" is anywhere interchangeable with beyond the Outer Gates.

It's hard to figure out different motivations for the Red Court factions because most of the perspectives that we get are villain monologues.  I don't think they wanted to end the masquerade, just less interference on how they managed their food source.  Riled mortals are still stronger with their ferromancy.

159
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Dresden have been wrong about Thorned?
« on: August 23, 2021, 08:30:53 PM »
Thorned Namshiel was able to take Marcone from basically no magic to doing things Harry couldn't without major effort.  A host with a stronger baseline magical ability would likely be able to pull off some impressive feats.

I forget why we assumed that Namshiel was the prime suspect.  Probably because Uriel gave Harry soulfire during his first spat with him?  Also, Harry puts the spotlight on him for it during SmF, I think.

160
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 23, 2021, 08:21:26 PM »
Interesting.  Harry said that Eb's hands weren't steady when they arrived.  I wonder if it wasn't entirely because of the Corner Hounds themselves but the implication.  It meant that someone had messed with (or traveled through) time.

So that's probably a really big deal:

1.  Someone messed with time
2.  Because the Corner Hounds arrived near them it stands to reason that the person is near them
3.  Even more likely it's Eb or Harry.
4.  If Harry it means he will be executed
5.  If Eb then he knows that something really really bad is going down, and that he at present doesn't know what.

So I think that Eb's reaction to them is probably important.  He also seemed to know a lot about them hinting he may have dealt with them before.
Yeah, most of the oldest Senior Council seemed to get frail physical descriptions this book.  I think it's to help foreshadow a changing of the guard.

As far as in story, Eb is aware of the Circle screwing with things lately, so a weird assassination attempt from the White Court combined with political issues from Harry was bad enough.  Throw in Outsiders specifically connected with time travel, and it's really bad.

161
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 23, 2021, 05:36:47 PM »
That makes sense. I'd probably argue that Harry was partly guessing at that point, based on Mab thanking Alfred for not handling things differently. I'm guessing he could have smacked them down, and Harry's presumption that he hadn't because he couldn't was likely wrong.

But I can definitely see where they might have some agency over the aspects of Alfred that are tied to nature.
I think it's definitely more than just angelic Grace running things. But the fact that the raw power of the circle invoked Molly to think her mom would talk in her church voice seems suggestive of the nature of it.
Yeah, I don't think "couldn't smack them down" is accurate, but the fact that it wasn't clear cut whether or not they actually had some small valid authority over him gave Alfred pause about whether or not it would be an appropriate action.

To make a metaphor, I think angelic grace is the original power and framework forming the prison, evil B.O. helps to power it and keep it going (like those finger trap toys where pulling harder actually works against you), and the genus loci is the user interface for utilizing it.

162
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 07:42:19 PM »
Could you give some info on this?  I looked up Corner Hounds and it only talked about them being creatures from Peace Talks and no mention of time travel.  That is a big deal and tend to agree time travel was going on if this is the case.
Butters calls them the Hounds of Tindalos.


My understanding based on WoJ is that anyone can be a Starborn as long as they are in the right place at the right time (I also believe they have to be born at that time but he didn't say that in his last interview).  So I could see a lot of people with no wizarding talent at all that are Starborn.

Listen may not be a wizard but he does seem to understand the wizarding stuff by the things he's done:

"Listen is sent as a messenger to the Grey Ghost, who he addresses as "Lady Shade", from Lord Omogh.[1] He was also the leader of the gang of Fomor servitors that attacked Molly Carpenter.[2]

Like all servitors, he wears a black turtleneck. His eyes have changed from a clear grey during the combat with Molly Carpenter to a deep purple like a "bruised corpse" during the visit with the Grey Ghost. In Bombshells he is described as a pale skinned, fit man of middle height with dark, intelligent eyes and a military short haircut.[1][3]

Listen is able to remain cool and observant in the midst of combat. He figured out Molly's illusions and was smart enough to wait out Harry Dresden's fire spell until it wore out.[2] When dealing with the Grey Ghost, Listen could disarm her by displaying his humility and loyalty to his Lord.[1] He has the protection of the Fomor Empress, as the Fomor Lord in "Bombshells" points out (when discussing Listen) that he would not be so stupid as to kill a "special pet of the Empress" even in an "accident".[3]

His weaponry include "seashell bombs": tiny nuclear-like blasts,[2] in addition to a gun and what appears to be a wakizashi[Footnote 1] or a ninja-to
"

I don't know if he has wizard level magic but I figure he must have some level of talent to figure out Molly's illusions.
Yeah, I don't think starborn are a subcategory of wizards either.  It's not too hard to figure out that Molly might be using illusions based on her past history.  I think Listen is just especially competent from what we've seen so far.

163
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 07:36:53 PM »
The point is, he knew it was off when she said it the first time out.. Just like in his conversation with Cat Sith, he pressed and Nemesis revealed itself.  He didn't press Justine in the apartment because he was already distracted by what Thomas had did,what had happened to him and his fears for Justine. 
Fine, already distracted, so no need for Justine to summon cornerhounds, even if she could.


Do you not think that it is possible that at that point Nemesis could threaten, Justine, Thomas, and more importantly her baby?  The threat was enough for Thomas to foolishly try to murder and disrupt the Accords.. So is it not logical that that kind of threat would push the mortal Justine to call up the Cornerhounds? Yeah, it was HWWB in the driver's seat, and he pushed Justine to blow the horn.   
You think that Nemesis can threaten Justine into helping kill the person that has the best chance of saving Thomas? 


Thank you for making my argument... You are answering your own question as to why they just don't get someone to call up a whole army. 
Because they can't call up a whole army.  Not on their own.  They can't just strong arm mortals into doing it.  Justine didn't call up the cornerhounds.

164
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 22, 2021, 07:11:24 PM »
I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.

I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.
It's in ch.50 of CD
Quote
Not only that, but Demonreach was a genius loci, a nature spirit.  The fae were intimately connected to nature on a level that no one had ever been able to fully understand.  One could probably make an argument that Demonreach was one of the fae, or at least a very close neighbor.  Either way, the mantles of the Ladies of Winter and Summer would carry a measure of dominion and power over beings like Demonreach.  Clearly they were not sovereign over the guardian spirit, because it was withstanding them.  Just as clearly, they had something going for them, because it wasn't trying to crush them either.

The "elemental" idea probably came from ch.48
Quote
And suddenly I felt very stupid.  What the fuck had I been thinking?  The Queens of Faerie, even the least of them, were elemental powers, something that was simply out of the league of any mortal.

165
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 06:42:25 PM »
Perhaps, but that was the sentence that tips Harry off that something isn't right about Justine. He says it at the apartment when she first says it and later on the boat, it was a tip off.  So while you may think it is understandable, Harry's gut reaction was that there was something not quite right about it.  Perhaps it wasn't so much what she said but how she said it.
Sure, it's a little weird, and with time to think it probably helps Harry put the pieces together on the boat.

No, her brain had already been taken over, she wasn't tricked, she'd already contrived to get pregnant by that time and proceed to push Thomas into committing murder.  Are you saying that
she was still sweet normal Justine at that point?  Because she wasn't.
But taken over, Justine wasn't the one in control.  No mortal free will there to summon outsiders.  I'm saying she wasn't just Justine at that point, so she couldn't summon outsiders.  (Thomas got it on with Nem!Justine.  It was HWWB in the driver's seat.)


Go back and read what He Who Walks Beside says, yes, they want to end reality, but they want to do it slowly from with in..  They are kind of like a cat playing with a mouse, it could end it quickly but it isn't.. It revels in the rot from with in.
Nah, they aren't sneaky because they want to toy with reality.  They're sneaky because that's their only option to destroy reality.


Yes, and lets not forget that is what Lord Raith did, he managed to recruit and brainwash Madge in order to summon Outsiders.  She was a low level practitioner.
Raith tricked Madge into helping him.  It's not the same thing as possessing her.





But if Justine is not driving, then how do the cornerhounds get summoned?

I doubt she would have sent Thomas on a suicide mission and then summoned an assassination squad against Harry of her own choice. That was Nemesis. And if it can summon Outsiders with controlled victims, then why do it in the backyard of the defenders of reality instead of a secluded hidden fortress?

Don't get me wrong. I love these books and I hope I survive to see the end of the story. But there are plot holes and inconsistencies just not enough to ruin it for me.
Yep, exactly.  Nemesis can't force mortals to summon outsiders, or the Outer Gates would be barely a speed bump for them.  At best, it can trick them into doing it willingly.

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