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Messages - arentol

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16
DFRPG / Re: Typo thread
« on: May 03, 2010, 05:32:56 AM »
Quote from: iago on May 03, 2010, 04:33:42 AM
WTF, dude? Are you not paying any attention?

-2 -2 = -4

+5 is an illegal Catch value. +3 is the max you can have with that. Period. Full stop.

If you look up a few posts you will see that deadmanwalking pointed out already that your errata posted earlier in this thread resolved this. No need to jump all over me for simply missing one post of yours.

Believe me, without the errata my example made perfect sense with what you were saying. I just missed that change you posted is all.

17
DFRPG / Re: Typo thread
« on: May 03, 2010, 03:12:21 AM »
Quote from: arentol on May 03, 2010, 01:06:28 AM
Related to this is also the fact that if you have more than one power from Toughness the exact refresh cost of each power is not clearly defined because the Catch is applied across all of them.

Example of an issue this causes:

Supernatural Toughness (-4)
Inhuman Recovery (-2)
The Catch: +3

Human Form +?
Applies to Inhuman Recovery
How much is "Inhuman Recovery" worth at this point? Is it -2 making Human Form worth +1, or is it -1, making Human Form worth 0?


Could still use clarification on this.

18
DFRPG / Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« on: May 03, 2010, 02:29:57 AM »
Yup, the new change makes it clear you can only take a single Catch if you only have PI, and that if you have PI + Toughness a/o Recovery the regular catch can only apply to T+R, not PI.

19
DFRPG / Re: Typo thread
« on: May 03, 2010, 02:06:52 AM »
Quote from: iago on May 03, 2010, 01:42:20 AM
Come again? Obviously we meant *as a whole*.

That's why the text reads "This will give you a discount on the overall cost of any and all Toughness powers that you take, "

"Overall cost" means total cost. Total. Of the powers in the Toughness category. I'll warrant that we should make it more clear (despite explicitly referencing Recovery abilities later in the Catch description) that Toughness means Toughness Category, and that will happen tonight. But I think anyone claiming that we're muddying whether it applies to powers individually is failing to read the above quoted phrase correctly (or simply failing to read it, period).

Okay, Overall cost of the powers in the toughness category, so this is acceptable then:

Inhuman Recovery -2
Inhuman Toughness -2
The Catch +5
Physical Invulnerability -8
The Catch (Stacked) +6
Total = -1

Also still not resolved is how Human Form applies when used with only one of the two toughness powers and therefore the exact value of that power is not known.

20
DFRPG / Re: Typo thread
« on: May 03, 2010, 01:39:51 AM »
Quote from: iago on May 03, 2010, 01:07:08 AM
I think some of these questions come from a willful misinterpretation of the obvious spirit of the rules. As such I'm gonna get a bit snarky about it. Fair warning.

#1 - The Stacked Catch only applies if you already have another catch applying to your other Toughness powers. There are no other Toughness powers in #1, so the principle of biggest value catch applies, netting only a +5 value.

From a pure wording standpoint it says that you get a catch for "your toughness abilities" and PI is a toughness ability, therefore you should get a catch for the general group of abilities known as "toughness abilities", then you should get a stacked catch for PI, even though PI is the only ability you have. OBVIOUSLY this is not what is intended, but it is still a way in which it can be interpreted by someone trying exploit the system and should probably be clarified.

Another issue:
"Catches cannot reduce the cost of your Toughness powers below –1."
Because "Toughness" is the name of the sum of all powers in this heading it is not completely clear whether this applies to your toughness powers as a whole, or to each individually. Obviously you meant individually, but that is not clear from the text as written.

This also brings up another issue. By looking over how various creatures in OW are set up it is obvious that it doesn't matter how much the "The Catch" is "worth" if the only toughness power you have aside from PI is Inhuman Recovery then "The Catch" MUST be reduced to +1, and this applies before a Stacked Catch is applied. Similarly, if you have Inhuman Recovery and Inhuman Toughness then "The Catch" MUST be reduced to +2, no matter how much it is actually worth, all before a Stacked Catch is applied... Supernatural toughness and Inhuman Recovery and a Catch worth +5? Nope, must be reduced to +4.

HOWEVER, that is not what the text actually says. It merely says that Catches cannot reduce the cost of toughness powers below -1. It doesn't actually say that you can't have a catch worth more than the powers value.

I can forsee someone doing the following without realizing why it is wrong:

Inhuman Recovery -2
Inhuman Toughness -2
Physical Immunity -8
The Catch +5
The Catch (stacked) +5
Total: -3 (minimum -1 per power)

Should be:
Inhuman Recovery -2
Inhuman Toughness -2
Physical Immunity -8
The Catch +2
The Catch (stacked) +5
Total: -5


21
DFRPG / Re: Typo thread
« on: May 03, 2010, 01:06:28 AM »
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on May 02, 2010, 11:01:30 PM
Non-Typo potentially major issues that have come up in various threads:

1. Can you apply the original Catch as well as the Stacked Catch to Physical Immunity? It would seem by the rules that you can, but that results in this:

Physical Immunity (-8)
The Catch: Water Magic (+3)
The Catch (Stacked): Non-magical attacks (+5)


Related to this is also the fact that if you have more than one power from Toughness the exact refresh cost of each power is not clearly defined because the Catch is applied across all of them.

Example of an issue this causes:

Supernatural Toughness (-4)
Inhuman Recovery (-2)
The Catch: +3

Human Form +?
Applies to Inhuman Recovery
How much is "Inhuman Recovery" worth at this point? Is it -2 making Human Form worth +1, or is it -1, making Human Form worth 0?

22
DFRPG / Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« on: May 03, 2010, 12:44:27 AM »
Quote from: Moriden on May 02, 2010, 11:52:02 PM
...same if you wrapped a balloon around a club and beet the poor sap with it.

Or put sand in it and sapped the sap with it. ;)

23
DFRPG / Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« on: May 02, 2010, 11:36:17 PM »
Quote from: Falar on May 02, 2010, 11:28:49 PM
I guess the crux of the matter is how Catch and Stacked Catch actually work together. I would think personally that Physical Immunity is only decreased by the Stacked Catch and all your other powers are affected by the regular Catch. That's how I personally think they should work ... even though that's not borne out by a strict reading of the rules.

If it was, then you could have Physical Immunity to something at a maximum of -3. And your normal Catch maxes out at one less than the sum of all your other Toughness powers. So you'd always pay at least -4 for Physical Immunity+.

The maximum "catch" or "stacked catch" is +6, and your normal catch can be as high as you want it to be, but you still must pay 1 point for each power. So you could have PI -8, and inhuman recovery and toughness, then have +6 to both catches for a total of -12, but you still have a total cost for the three powers of -3, -1 each.

The rules as written are just horribly broken. It is easily resolved if all players and the GM agree not to be stupid about all this, but it is still broken.

24
DFRPG / Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« on: May 02, 2010, 11:27:42 PM »
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on May 02, 2010, 11:06:05 PM
There's not technically any reason the original Catch's discount can't can't apply to Physical Immunity. It's not how the example critter does it...but it could by the rules do precisely that. I think that's idiotic, and would never allow it, but it's technically legal, barring errata.

I do see what you are saying, and I agree. Overall the rules on toughness are actually VERY broke anyway. Example:

Inhuman Toughness -4
Inhuman Recovery -2
The Catch +3
Total cost: -4-2+3 = -3

Human Form +?
Affects Inhuman Recovery ONLY

So is Human Form 0 or +1?

It is clear in this situation though:

Inhuman Recovery -2
The Catch +3
Total cost: -1 (minimum cost)

Human Form +0
Affects Inhuman Recovery ONLY

Then there is this:
Inhuman Toughness -2
Inhuman Recovery -2
The Catch +3
Total cost: -2-2+3 = -1, but there is a -1 minimum cost per power, so it is actually a total cost of -2. However, how do we right this on a character sheet since you don't actually sum these things normally (see the many examples in OW).


All this is really the core problem that Moridens idea is exploiting, and I am dang glad he brought this up because it needs to be fixed in all these variations that people have posted here.


25
DFRPG / Re: What's the most munchkin character you can build?
« on: May 02, 2010, 11:01:57 PM »
Your PI/Toughness is still broken you know. It is NOTHING AT ALL like the example on page 187 no matter how much you insist that it is.

Here is how the example on 187 works...

Supernatural Toughness (-4)
The Catch: vulnerable to cold (+3)
Total = -1

Physical Immunity (-8)
The Catch (stacked)*: Immune only to fire (+5)
Total = -3

Total toughness powers refresh cost (-4)  from the book: "the demon gets a total of +8 toward his Toughness powers, so his total refresh cost is only –4"

Here is what you should have done:

Physical immunity (-8)
Stacked catch:  Not a Weapon +2, Easy to come by +2, Can be researched +1  [+5]
Total (-3)

Supernatural Recovery (-4)
The Catch: Vulnerable to Obsidian +2, Can be researched +1 [+3]
Total (-1)

Human Form 0
Affects Supernatural Recovery (-1 power, so this is a 0 point ability)
Involuntary Change: When attacked (+1)

Total cost of toughness powers using this method is -3 instead of the -2 you pulled out of thin air.

However, you could get it to -2 pretty easily. Just have the Human Form affect all toughness powers. Then those powers would be exactly as in my example, but Human form would have a base of +1 and total of +2. Enemies would then get one chance to attack you before your defenses kicked in.

The core mistake you seem to be making is that you are not handling each power independently, though that is also a problem made by the rule book. The book has a massive hole because of the way it handles combining of toughness powers and toughness catches.

26
DFRPG / Re: Aspect Tendencies
« on: May 02, 2010, 02:34:23 AM »
You are creating characters in a vacuum right now. I think you will find it easier to create person and prop aspects when making a character as part of a group during city and character creation.

27
DFRPG / Re: Yet Another 'My Character Idea' Topic
« on: May 02, 2010, 01:25:19 AM »
Human form works like this:

In Human Form you have powers X
In shifted form you have powers X + powers Y

As written in the rules this is the ONLY way Human form works, it ADDS a power that isn't there in the normal form, but does not remove any powers.

What you are doing is this:

In form A you have powers X + powers Y
In form B you have powers X + powers Z

You are swapping power Y for power Z, or alternatively adding power Z and removing power Y.

For what you are doing to be proper Human Form you would need to do this:

Form A has powers X + powers Y
Form B  has powers X + powers Y + powers Z.

Which is clearly not what you are doing, or want to do.

At least that is my take on things from as strict rules point-of-view. As a GM though I would say your method gets the job done, it just isn't "technically" what the rules of Human Form say. It doesn't really matter, as long as everyone agrees on how the powers work and what-not.

As a matter of fact I would say that this game has a major rules hole because it actually completely lacks a way to change from one "human" form to another without taking true shapeshifting then limiting that to a single form, or something similar. There should be a multi-form power or something.

28
DFRPG / Re: Yet Another 'My Character Idea' Topic
« on: May 01, 2010, 11:33:39 PM »
Although you are not using Human Form exactly as written, I think you are paying the right number of points for what you are getting in power, so if I were your GM I would allow it.  No carrying around a thermos of hot water at all times though!

The main thing I see on the character that doesn't make sense is that he doesn't have at least one point of scholarship based on his early interest in math, reading, science, and his (presumed) ability to speak japanese. For a "geek" he also just seems awful combat-skill heavy so you might want to think about that.

At the very least I would suggest changing to a 4,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1 skill setup, adding level 1 scholarship and investigation to his skills.



29
DFRPG / Re: Yet Another 'My Character Idea' Topic
« on: May 01, 2010, 07:35:53 PM »
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on May 01, 2010, 07:01:50 PM
Umm, I'm not Falar, but:


Oops, missed that.

So, I see -8 and +4 for a total of -4 refresh, or 2 refresh left. What am I missing?

30
DFRPG / Re: Emotions fuel magic right?
« on: May 01, 2010, 07:06:24 PM »
Didn't realize you were intending to design a specific new power with this discussion. That changes everything because you aren't asking about the existing rules, but how to best create a new rule. Wish I had known.

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