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Messages - Yuillegan

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1231
DF Spoilers / Re: Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?
« on: April 08, 2019, 01:25:43 PM »
I was going to respond to a lot of this, then ended up writing up a massive theory. I will link it: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53047.0.html

   Yeah, but the way I understand it, a "death curse" is the curse that a wizard throws at someone with his or her dying breath..  If you receive it it doesn't mean you will die on the spot..  Lord Raith didn't, heck, Harry didn't, [though Cassius wasn't a wizard] he was only doomed to die alone, not immediately..   Actually I think a death curse can be a number of things like cursing someone with purple warts on his or her nose for life..

Yes, they do but the act kills them - it is all the energy they have left. But depending on how they can use that energy based on talent, skill and knowledge the difference might be between killing an individual or a room and nuking a small fortress (like Simon). Frequently described by Harry as being able to level several city blocks (see Grave Peril I think). While technically it doesn't mean you will die (the "Death" in Death Curse is about the caster dying, not the target), it is all about what you use that last spell for. So if all you can manage is purple warts or die alone, sucks to be you. Because some like Margaret Le Fay realise that you can do a lot more with it, like shut down an enemies power when you can't kill them.

1232
DF Spoilers / Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« on: April 08, 2019, 01:16:51 PM »
JUSTIN IS ALIVE

1. As established in the WOJ there is a big difference between Dead and Gone. So just because Justin is D-E-D, doesn't mean he is out of the game. Hell, Malcolm Dresden isn't out of the game and he IS dead.

2. Secondly, if Justin wasn't just a run of the mill Warden who's initial dabbles in the Dark Arts got him in over his head and killed, then he likely had access to magic that makes him able to do lots of things that Harry and perhaps even elements of the Council would not be aware of.
    We know Justin wasn't some mere dabbler - he was a powerful Warden (to the point where most doubted some young punk wizard could have defeated him in a magical duel, more on that later) and well connected to several mysterious individuals that have ties to the Big Things going on. He knew Margaret Le Fay, Ariana, Lord Raith, Leah and was personally present at Kemmler's defeat (to the point where he actually grabbed Bob's skull, more on that later).  We know only a little of his abilities, yet we can assume he was a powerful Evocation specialist (otherwise he couldn't have been a Warden). We also know he taught Harry most of the foundation of what he knows - so he clearly has a wide range of skills. We know he could reach beyond the Outer Gates (knowledge that is so difficult and dangerous and highly guarded that barely anyone even knows what the gates are). If he broke that Law, we can make a reasonable assumption he had broken some of the others. We know he could Enthrall, and likely invade minds. So could he transform others, perform Necromancy, mess with Time? Likely he could do the first. My belief, and it seems likely, is that he understood at least some Necromancy. Harry even says in Grave Peril, it wasn't complex to Raise Sue, but just a lot of magical effort.

3. How did he know about Bob? How did he recognise him for what he was? Why didn't he destroy him? Why didn't original/evil Bob try and destroy him?
    All questions that are difficult to answer. If you are raiding a extremely powerful and dangerous Necromancer's lair, surrounded by his minions and traps with his home field advantage, are you going to notice a relatively boring skull amongst likely lots of other skulls? Probably not unless Evil Bob was running around obviously - which if he were, the Council would have seen and destroyed such a Thing. So probably it was either advising it's Master (Kemmler) or it was hidden. Either way, of all people there (including Simon), Justin found it. If Simon were Cowl, surely he would have been pretty interested in finding Evil Bob and using it for his own purposes (including a Darkhallow, ahead of schedule)?
    If Justin was a regular Warden, and he noticed Bob he would have destroyed him. If he was already corrupted, he might have made a deal for more power. But that doesn't explain how he found it when no one did. Also clearly Evil Bob is so powerful in his own right, he can kill regular Wizards easily. In fact, he was only really behaving for his holder (similar to a Djinn) or bullied by the Necromancers. Evil Bob normally would have just killed an enemy like a Warden, so only if Kemmler was about to be out of the picture might he jump ship, but even then it would be as a Master to a new apprentice. Only a powerful and experienced Wizard, especially with powers directly over spirits, could subdue him into an advisory capacity.

4. How did Dresden defeat DuMorne in a wizard's duel, a term first mentioned in Grave Peril, when Anastasia rightly points out Dresden has little experience in such things (which by this point is decades after his fight with Justin) yet he is far more experienced by now than when they first fought (especially more so than the new Warden recruits) and Justin was a highly experienced Dark Wizard duelist?
    Well this is a tricky one. If Dresden has 'super' wizard powers from being a Star Born, then perhaps this was how. However we have only really seen that against Outsiders. Justin clearly taught Harry the idea that you don't just rely on magic, you use the environment, regular mundane fighting weapons, and anything else you can to defeat an enemy. So considering that, the fact they had a magic duel is quite unusual. In fact, Harry almost never relies on magic alone. Now we know almost nothing about that fight (for obvious reasons) and so we are in the murky area of guesswork. However I think we can imagine that Harry after running away and defeating He Who Walks Behind, would have tried to get the jump on Justin. Especially after realising that Justin likely thought he was dead. Also, he has just made his deal with Leah for the power to defeat Justin. Which Harry has always assumed was a Dumbo's feather situation since then. Likely Leah gave him a few strategies to help him defeat Justin too.
    But Justin despite all this, is a very skilled warrior. He obviously would have had wards on his property, which would have alerted him to Harry's return. He probably had ones that even stop enemies from entering uninvited. Say Dresden knew how to disable the wards, Justin still would have eventually realised Harry had survived. He then has his magic shield, and many practiced evocations and possibly even magical devices (not to mention his Warden blade) at his disposal. So unless Harry completely overwhelmed him in that first vital few moments, it is unlikely that he would have had much trouble duelling with his own student. He would know Dresden’s weaknesses, and considering how far in advance Dresden normally prepares (which he would have learned from Justin) he was probably prepared for such a situation. La Fortier even mentions how many were never convinced he actually did defeat Justin in a straight duel, but perhaps accidently killed him with the fire (or as some above have suggested, he was implying Justin might not even actually BE dead).
   Which begs the question, if HWWBH was actually running the show and was trying to convince Harry to use magic for violence, what was Justin’s intention? Consider for a moment that Justin was not surprised but in fact prepared for his final duel. Perhaps he wanted to teach one last lesson. Perhaps he wanted to get Dresden to kill him – so he would be comfortable with breaking the Laws of magic when he felt it was necessary. 

5. DuMorne in French is roughly "of the Mountains". The French connection between Margaret, Justin, Grails, Arthurian references etc cannot be denied. It is important because it establishes a link between several highly important series elements. Always look for the literary devices when constructing theories; they hold the key. E.g. Vader means Father, and a common narrative structure is the Hero’s Journey. Not to mention the Son killing Father trope is as old as any story you might care to name. Interesting he has Morgana Le Fay’s athame, of all things. White Council started by Merlin, who also helped form the knights of the round table – including eventually Lancelot Dulac (of the Lake).

6. Finally, when and how did Dumorne get corrupted to evil? Was it Nemesis or Dark Magic or was he always pretty bad? Never been properly examined in either the text or in theories (afaik). There are several possibilities.
   One, he was a good old Warden and got Nemfected. Possible, but as we know so little about how Nemesis works we can’t really say either way. If that were the case it could explain away a lot of his behaviour and probably why he has been discarded after use and how he could reach beyond the Outer Gates.
   Two, he got corrupted by using too much Dark Magic. Now assuming that is different to Nemesis infection (which at this point it seems to be, if they were the same thing it wouldn’t affect immortals the way it does or the Council would be more aware of it, but they don’t seem to be), we can assume that he started to go mad with power. However, many wizards go Dark and don’t seem to go raising Outsiders. In fact, it seems like it takes a hell of a lot of set up to get that knowledge, which your average power mad warlock doesn’t seem to be involved with. Even if Justin did go that bit extra, how did he get the knowledge in the first place? Much easier to raise regular demons.
   Three, he was bad for a LONG time. Consider that Justin wasn’t always Justin. Perhaps he was a body swapping Necromancer etc. Maybe he was just some Wizard who got pulled into the wrong crowd early on. Maybe he even went looking for knowledge to defeat evil and got convinced by a charismatic/persuasive person to join the dark side. Kemmler is pretty persuasive and charismatic (see A Fistful of Warlocks). He also had several acolytes with him back then in the Wild West (one was Grevane). Perhaps one was Corpsetaker. One seems to resemble Cowl. But even if he isn’t that old, Kemmler is around until 30 October, 1961. Harry is roughly Jim’s age (JB’s bday is 26 October, 1971). So let’s say around 49. Meaning let’s say Justin is looking 40s when he adopts Harry he is probably 60s (Wizard aging remember). So when Harry is 16 (six years after being adopted in ‘81) the year is roughly 1987. Justin is in his 70s perhaps, still looking flash, highly experienced Warden and dangerous as anything. He would have been relatively young for a Warden when Kemmler’s assault took place (probably 50s), remember Harry is considered by the White Council for the first part of the series to be incredibly young and inexperienced (and they are sort of right). So let’s say Justin turns bad sometime between 30 and 50 years old, for whatever reason. He meets Kemmler and enters into an apprenticeship with him, but realises he is mad. Decides he can do it better. Perhaps, and even likely, betrays him to the Wardens. Good cover for his own plans. Helps kill off his old mentor, secures a few choice possession (such as a certain Spirit of Intellect) and claims stellar points for helping bring down Kemmler finally. Good Guy Justin. Starts enacting his own dark plans, manages to acquire not one but two Star Born, and is preparing to execute his strategy when plans change.

If this is the case then he is Cowl. This makes the most sense.  So let’s examine the possibility and discuss evidence of Justin = Cowl.

COWL = JUSTIN

       We know Cowl, for whatever reason, seems to be able to cheat death. He isn’t worried about Death Curses. He survived the backlash of the Darkhallow (which should have obliterated him). If Cowl is Justin, it makes sense that he survived a simple fire (even if his chosen meat suit died). He could have jumped into another body (prepared for such events), he might even have some yet unknown ability, technique or deal that allows him to come back from death. Cowl works with Outsiders – that much is clear (see Nemesis infecting Leah). Justin works with Outsiders. Cowl knew about Bob, something none of the other Necromancers seemed to be aware existed until Cowl revealed it. How would he know that Bob had survived AND Harry had him? Well unless he received some magical/divine revelation, he couldn’t have. Only Justin and Elaine knew about Bob’s survival, and the Harry would have taken him. Unless we get in the Time Travellers – which we won’t here. That is a whole can of worms that until we know more about Time Travel we cannot really discuss with any real meaning.
Cowl is highly, highly proficient in magic. Described as having a stronger heavy punch than Ebenezar (admittedly, we haven’t seen Ebenezar unleashed yet) and having quick and effective wards, skilled at illusion (including a voice-altering spell), able to cause massive electronic and machine failure (and several other subtler disruption spell), mental assaults, and incredibly skilled at opening Ways (something so complicated only Wizards with years of formal instruction can do – it is clear even Wizard-level talents like Hannah Ascher cannot do this without the appropriate training). Cowl also is mixed up with a lot of the people Justin was (the Raiths, the White Council, Ariana, obviously Kemmler and possibly Margaret Le Fay). On Ariana, though this is never seen we can infer that she or Ortega connected him to Bianca. Arianas play for power mirrored a trend of the old order being washed away for a new one, and clearly there is a link between the Red Court nobility and the Necromancers (likely through Cowl). How else would a plan to wipe the White Council out have been formed – do we really think they just thought “maybe we’ll just call up the local Necromancer and get him to be a God and take out the Senior Council”? No, this was a plan long in the making. Cowl also has interesting links to the Formor – a group that seems to have replaced the Red Court as the face of organisational antagonist. We can guess at this from the scent of mildew from his lair on his side of the Way, and also from Corpsetaker’s links to the Formor. Perhaps even from his voice, which sounded like he was talking underwater.
         
         Cowl uses a gun. That right there is plain weird. Almost NO wizard and supernatural types use guns. Something Justin taught Harry was to use any weapons, not just rely on magic. Cowl also has big old scars on his arms (see Grave Peril climax). Where might he have got this? One idea is a pretty nasty house fire.  Interestingly, Darth Vader is so scarred and burnt he looks nothing like Anakin and his voice changes. Huh. All the Necromancers are skilled in weapons (Swords, Chains/Kusari etc). Justin would have been skilled too, the skill transfer over. But Cowl doesn’t have a sword? Well Justin hardly could carry his old Warden sword, that would be a big neon sign saying “Here I am!”. But Cowl might carry one concealed. Cowl knows about Halloween being the time Immortals become unlocked and Mortal. That is such a big secret right there, even the other Necromancers didn’t know. Except likely Kemmler. How would Cowl know unless he took is from Kemmler. He might have learned it from Outsiders, but this information is so highly guarded and dangerous to have it puts you on just about every immortal’s radar. Interestingly, both Cowl and Nicodemus are not sure if they are mad. But they are able to examine it. This doesn’t fit with irrational power-hungry schitzo sorcerers. This is deeper, and far more scary - Nemesis or otherwise.

       Kumori is a strong indicator that Cowl is Justin. If Justin did survive, with or without Elaine’s help, why did he not come after her? She wasn’t in WC custody. Maybe she went to the Summer Court of her own will, maybe not. Elaine uses Egyptian and Japanese words for magic. Kumori is a Japanese name, and while we never hear her language for magic, that would align. Kumori is odd too. Deadly, yet compassionate and idealistic. Truly wants to end death. We know NOTHING of what Elaine’s life was before Justin. Maybe she really wants her family back. Elaine is also been weirdly involved in some big events, not totally as innocently coincidental as it appears (Summer Knight, White Night anyone?) Not to mention, she is almost Harry’s height, and a big painful distraction. Perfect for a really mean sucker punch. Yet a complicated one, she does seem to genuinely love Harry. Kumori is tall enough to hold a 6’9” Dreden’s hair back and put a knife to his throat. Only quite a tall lady could do that. Kumori also find Dresden humorous and frustrating, like an old lover.

        Finally, it makes narrative sense. If Cowl is some other character, only a few are going to impact Dresden as much as the return of Justin. An old enemy, long thought dead comes back more powerful than ever, and the hero realises how long this has been in the making and how unprepared he is. If it were say, Simon then some character mentioned only in one or two books (who Dresden has never met) is revealed as the villain it becomes a bit anti-climactic. A missed opportunity. A common (because it works) trope is the return of the old teacher. Especially an old enemy. Harry would be scared, angry and devastated that Cowl is Justin (far more than if someone else) and not only that, has Elaine onside. And is behind so much stuff that has been awful in his life. That would be much worse than some random old guy who hasn’t really made much of an impact. Vader was always much more scary and upsetting to Luke initially because he was the former Jedi Knight and Father. If he had been some member of the Jedi Council, would it have had the same impact? No bloody way.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST COWL = JUSTIN.

1.   Justin is Dead. D-E-D Dead.
     a. Well as I stated earlier, big difference between Dead and Gone. That is cannon people.  Jim could say he never lied, just that we assumed that he meant Justin was no longer a part of everything. When Necromancy is involved, the line between life and death becomes very, very squishy. We know that you can body swap. We know you can even die and then re-enter a host from beyond the grave (see Ghost Story). Not to mention those that continue to work from beyond the grave, in purgatory or otherwise. He even could have hitched a ride in Elaine, until he found a more suitable host. Hell, he might even just have abandoned the body for a bit then come back in when buried.
    b. He could have faked it (pre-ready corpse etc.) and used his considerable powers to open a Way (whether he was Cowl or not, this is possible).   
    c. No Death Curse. Harry is always going on about why it is a bad idea to kill a Wizard who sees it coming for more than a split second. They can tag you back, a final F U. Justin was no slouch, and his Death Curse would have been quite strong. Harry was likely exhausted, how would he defend against a Death Curse? Justin surely would have been mad enough to do it. And if he died in the fire, as is implied, he still would have been able to do his Death Curse. He wasn’t mad like Grevane, who truly believed that death didn’t apply to him.
   d. Anakin Skywalker was dead. Darth Vader wasn’t. Same person, just different legally. Anakin died when Vader was born in Palpatine’s office after the murder of Mace Windu. One might say that just because Justin is dead, doesn’t mean that Cowl is. Like a parody of Vadderung, two people same body. Oh look Vader I mean Vadderung. Weird similarities there. Why call Odin Vadderung? Surely Jim wouldn’t have more than one hint…

2. But Simon is Cowl.
    a.   Simon is dead. But you said-no! All the reasons above do not apply. Simon’s body was recovered, and the WC would have been A LOT more concerned should the Ramps have taken his body. Think of how worried they were when a Lieutenant Warden was taken – no magnify that. A completely terrifying threat. Simon was a powerhouse. The WC would have examined his body thoroughly.
   b.   Simon was apparently overwhelmed unexpectedly. Even though he knew Vampire lore best, even though he had an impregnable fortress, they snuck through. The main theory is only someone who knew his wards could have got in. Justin was his apprentice – and he sure as hell didn’t teach Harry what those wards were.
   c.   He released a Death Curse. And while they can be faked, we know that it is unlikely that he did in particular. His Death Curse was mighty, and even if he could fake it there would be signs of such a thing. There is a well-known WOJ on this.
  d.   It is pretty common that the strategy when facing a powerful foe is neutralise their advantages. Taking out their most knowledgeable Wizard on Vampires, plus one of their most powerful warriors (along with his feared Brute Squad) seems like a pretty good idea.

3.  Cowl seems like he doesn’t recognise Dresden.
    a.   Well, if he is hiding his identity he is hardly going to give hints about who he really is.
    b. Justin also hasn’t seen Harry fight probably in since their “duel”. I think he would be curious to see how powerful Harry was. And like an old teacher, disappointed when their high expectations aren’t met. Also like Justin, Cowl switches between rage and calm easily, like a psychopath or sociopath.
    c.   And Justin wouldn’t know this Dresden. He only knows kid Dresden. So in a way, he doesn’t really recognise him.
    d. Would Cowl really want to kill Dresden? Who says he wasn't trying anyway and Dresden did outmaneuver him? Not to mention, if Cowl has further plans for Dresden, which is again highly possible, why would he kill that asset? Justin is the pragmatic, cold type. He isn't going to care that Dresden burnt him and his house. He might be mad about ruining his plans (assuming that wasn't what he wanted in the first place), but he works in a cold and logical way. 

1233
DF Spoilers / Re: Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?
« on: April 04, 2019, 07:34:08 AM »
I agree. I have used this passage to support my theory that Justin is not dead, and further is in fact Cowl. I am sure I am not the only one. For more reasons than I care to name right now, it is very likely Justin is not gone. The books have put some emphasis on the distinction about being dead and being gone.

I may rewrite that theory when I am a tad less busy but yes I think Justin will return to the stage, one way or another.

1234
DF Spoilers / Re: Way too much time to think
« on: April 03, 2019, 08:37:09 AM »
A very interesting theory. I like it! Especially your reasoning for why all Outsiders work as one - no free will makes perfect sense. But I also like the idea they are almost like a hive mind, all the same being but unlimited power out there doesn't translate to unlimited power inside (rather like Voidwalkers in WoW).

I also massively agree that Reality exists WITHIN the Almighty. There isn't really any other way - it is a part of It. You cannot create SOMETHING from NOTHING. So it had to come from within.

Now I don't know why the Almighty is different and chose to create and is not part of the Hive Mind of the Outsiders - this suggests it was either first OR that they aren't totally without some level of Free Will and it broke off.

The rest makes sense - starborns and prophets/holy men being aligned also. Not sure that Hinduism would have been the first attempt at consolodating the Powers That Be. A reasonable argument could be made for Egypt, China and even Mesopotamia. Ur was likely the first city after all - the birthplace of "civilization" (not the birthplace of Man of course, that was most likely Africa - if you are an evolutionist). Perhaps even in concert these things happened.

But yes that all fist everything nicely. Thanks for putting that down - I feel like I have been trying to explain parts of this (not as well) for some time and it hasn't seemed to resonate. But I am glad someone can see it!

1235
DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis and Hecate
« on: April 03, 2019, 08:13:00 AM »
Perhaps. But you are assuming gods come from Inside in the first place - and we know almost zero about Outside and it's purpose/landscape.

And you may be right about the Code. Which is why I said may. Phrases can be hard to trace, and often come from more than one area (especially if a common idea)

1236
DF Spoilers / Re: This I Believe
« on: April 03, 2019, 08:09:18 AM »
Interesting ideas all. I agree with a few and the rest are just as unlikely as any other theory here. I will note that Harry always talks about height so unless Cowl is magically concealing his height (which is damn impressive considering what we know of magic) is probably enough of a factor to rule out Harry. Also Harry does describe just two features of Cowls (apart from his robes and magic). His voice (distorted by magic) and that he has old scars on his arms (in Dead Beat at the climax). I have my own theory on who it is, and I think it is rather obvious but time will tell.
Merlin has been ruled out.
Vadderung might be running a game on Harry, but remember he is tempered by his benevolent side (Kringle). So I suspect it is more a Dumbledore type game - best of intentions, designed to cause maximum damage to the enemy and probably will cause Harry a whole lot of grief. Harry has always been somewhat of a tool/sacrificial lamb.


1237
DF Spoilers / Re: Grave Peril Questions
« on: April 03, 2019, 08:01:57 AM »
1. I think Mavra has been holding off for years. Sometimes as author's add new scope to a series and new rules, they can find clever plot threads to explain holes. Such as when McCoy puts a magic lock on Mavra. Quite the trick, yet rarely attempted. And not just because McCoy is Senior Council level wizard. I suspect Mavra (in that book) was not written as powerful as she became later. Numerous characters experienced power-slide over the series and she was one. She may well have had other motives to be there, indeed Cowl does state many things of importance happened there and I am sure we haven't found out anywhere near all of them.
2. As we only see things from Harry's perspective, there is no way to know whether they (Cowl and Mavra) were working together or otherwise. I also believe that there is potential to use Time Travel to explain inconsistencies - I think there is even a WOJ on it from a while back. I also think Cowl and Kumori, like Mavra, prefer to be power behind the throne/scene people. Allows them greater influence and freedom. Cowl clearly doesn't like to draw too much attention to himself, same with Mavra. Neither are Ferrovax level - who just gives zero F's.
3. I think that was explained that they were looking for an excuse for war, and a hot-headed inexperience member of the White Council was a prime target. It was not the value of Susan to the White Council, but rather her value to Harry that made her a tool. I don't believe they thought for one minute Harry would leave Susan. But even so, I think it was also Bianca flexing her muscle (under Ortega's attention). It was a test - could they act perhaps more openly without fear of consequence. And also just in general - revenge for Bianca's dead servant and humilation for the Wizard who so publicly embarrassed her. Remember in the Supernatural world, there is a big thing of respect and honour. Bianca had to restore her standing after losing it so early just after being promoted.

1238
DF Spoilers / Re: Interesting observation about Grave Peril
« on: April 03, 2019, 07:48:00 AM »
Goof pickup kbrizzle - I wouldn't know if it was intentional but it would further show Jim's skill if he did plan it like that. Either way it makes for nice symmetry. Grave Peril is definitely one of the most significant in the series - I suspect we won't really know how much until the very end.

1239
DF Spoilers / Nemesis and Hecate
« on: April 02, 2019, 03:34:35 AM »
JB constantly says he is a lazy writer. And it strikes me if he is going to the effort to name something, he has a good reason behind it.

Now Hecate is a MINOR goddess of the Greco-Roman Pantheon. And that is interesting because considering how powerful the Faerie queens are (which are hinted to be/or highly connected to Hecate) that gives us a few options. Option A is it is because Hecate got a lot more powerful over time, or was assisted by multiple other beings (gods). This seems most likely considering a few WOJs about why the Fae became what they are. Option B is that she was also much more than simply Hecate. And then there are a few other options I suppose based on the few theories about what gods are.

But if Nemesis (the Outsider contagion) is actually also the goddess Nemesis (and whatever else that might be) from Greco-Roman tradition that makes things interesting. Nemesis funnily enough is a goddess of balance, specifically Vengeance/Revenge. Eye for and eye may have first come from her.

Jim likes to use parallels a lot - and a nice counter to the Hecate (as the Queens) might be Nemesis. But then - wouldn't it make sense if Nemesis was not one being, but several? And who fits that description better than the Walkers. But even if they are not - Nemesis as an angry greek goddess getting revenge make some sense. Certainly one female vs another female is quite.. poetic (for want of a better word). It has a certain symmetry.

But then if that were true - where are the other gods? Jim has said some have died or faded, and some are asleep. And perhaps that is true. Hades exists but then his power apparently has not the effect it used to to have.

Something bugs me a lot about Hecate being so powerful to split into the queens (originally 3). Hecate in the myths is a powerful yet minor goddess of magic. But she isn't anywhere near on the level of Zeus or Hades etc. So if they are dead or less powerful these days - how did she come to outrank them so massively. 

So I have a theory. It is based on several WOJs - particularly the ones about how the beings don't change, just our understanding of them.

I think the Almighty is the Almighty. But to different cultures he is/was Zeus/Brahma/Ahura Mazda/Odin/Ra etc.

And there must always be a Creator/Almighty.

The Devil then, is the Devil. Angra Mainyu/Ahriman/Surt/Ymir/Apep/Apophis/Lucifer/Set etc.

Then there are the major deities Archangels/Mothers/Thor/Hades/Poseiden/Uriel/Michael/Osiris/Shiva etc. There to help govern reality.

Then there are the minor gods. Angels/Hecate/Bast/Baldr/Agni/Queens. They carry out the orders of governance and maintain smaller parts of reality.

Dragons depending on the Dragon, can be Archangel level or minor god level.

And on and on the tree goes. But I think as powerful as any being is - mortal belief in concert is very very powerful. So it changes them, based on how we mostly perceive them. And they fear that, because it changes how they interact with us. Almighty is always the Almighty, but he can't be Zeus when interacting with us. So what is left of that belief goes on being Zeus (either fading or dying) like a discarded limb it falls off the Tree that is the Creator and becomes it's own tree or it dies. Perhaps someone even picks it up and wears it, trying to gain power or influence. That is what I think Odin is - he isn't AND is the original Odin - now that Odin is not seen as the Creator he cannot be the Almighty but he can still be that mask that interacted with the world. So he can still be Odin, just not Odin (the Almighty) unless belief allows him to be again.

Thoughts?

1240
DF Spoilers / Harry's Point of View
« on: March 27, 2019, 07:04:19 AM »
A recurring event in the series is Harry's universe revealing more of itself, subverting and oftentimes correcting Harry's previous assumptions.

Harry believes X, learns Y *Shock*. A recent example is when Harry learns that the Outer Gates are not metaphorical, but in fact (somewhat) literal - at least as far as Harry's brain can understand. Though in fairness, there is a reasonable argument to say those things arn't really exclusive when it comes to such things.

Often this forum loves to speculate on what those reveals might be (and I will post another thread shortly to talk about some insights I have had) so my thinking is, how much of what Harry believes is true is actually true? I think a handy way to tell is probably the further back and more deeply held the assumption is (with certain exceptions), the less likely it is in fact true.

E.g. Harry assumed Justin sent a plain old nasty demon to kill him and we learn later that it is HWWB (an Outsider - a demon on the level of an Archangel) who was running the show and wasn't really trying to kill him, but trying to have Harry learn to believe it is fundamentally right to kill and cause harm with magic (according to Harry and Leah's assessment).

So, perhaps a list is in order. What things are going to be proven to be other than what they seem?

1. The Almighty - and his legions. To paraphrase a WOJ "The Almighty is awesome, it is all of us who are stupid...there is more crossover between the religions than all the people on this little planet know.
2. Conversely, the Devil is not what he seems (and perhaps nor are his legions). We know he has an argument with the Almighty over *something* - likely Free Will. We don't know the details of the argument. We also know Power has Purpose, not all Evil is unnecessary as uncomfortable as that might be (see: Mab).
3. Gods of the various pantheons. Probably a major subversion here - I am expecting beings who are called different things to different people. Likely the role of Gods is to be protectors, shapers and guides against demons/monsters and perhaps Outsiders.
4. Outsiders - this is probably the big one. Harry believes they are Evil (and they seem to fit that definition) however we know they "look different depending on which Universe they are trying to get into" WOJ
5. The Knights of the Blackened Denarius. Likely all have their own ends - but it seems clear that they are not always in alignment with the big D, sometimes directly counter to. And Harry likely will have to work with them at least one more time - probably fighting a bigger threat.
6. The Fae (Sidhe, Furies, Fireies etc). Seem likely that pantheons such as Norse , Greco-Roman and Egyptian poured a lot of Power into them in order to maintain influence in the world. Why they were fading, and that the Fae were chosen and less likely to fade, and the true purpose of Gods is a bit of a mystery.
7. Marcone - definitely a sort of good guy. Likely important for the end.
8. Margaret - Definitely a lot worse than Harry has imagined. Margaret's life and atrocities are probably there to sucker punch Harry like Ebenezer's sucker punch did.
9. The Circle and/or Black Council. Likely people Harry knows and trusts are involved. Maybe some double and triple agents. Likely working towards the end of everything (knowingly or unknowingly).
10. Cowl and Kumori - like Nicodemus, probably believe they are doing good. I think one group will be (but by distasteful methods and one is blind).
11. WAG - Necromancy actually serves a fundamental purpose in Creation. It is a necessary evil.
12. Arthur (Current Merlin) - probably either a lot better or worse than Harry knows.
13. Someone(s) who Harry believes are definitely Dead - are not gone
14. Harry's Starborn status - a curse more than a blessing (but centered around Choice).   
15. Kincaid is good (but his Dad is really bad) - maybe Drakul?
16. Drakul is effing terrifying. Harry is nowhere near prepared.
17. Dragons are important - their deaths have caused long-term problems
18. Not all the warriors of light are good. (Lawful Evil).
19. Universe is infinitely larger than Harry knows. We know this but it is gonna rock Harry's world.
20. Harry's kids might have a bigger role than him in the end.
21. The really big players have made moves in the background all through Harry's life (and the Files). We will see the evidence when we learn who they are and what they want.
22. Harry's problems are still small scale (the Fight is far larger than Harry knows).
23. The Merlin was a lot more than he seemed. And Harry and he will//have crossed paths.
24. It's gonna get worse before it gets better. The End Times are nigh.
25. Harry is going to be alright. He doesn't know this, but that is his destiny (after all the rubbish he will have to go through).

I have probably missed a bunch, so let me know what you think is coming that Harry doesn't know or has the wrong idea about!
3.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Can Hellfire be used without a Coin?
« on: February 24, 2019, 01:39:16 PM »
I suspect that Hellfire is a property of Lucifer, a corruption of soulfire, and that if you use it, you get it as a boon from him.  By invitation only.I will go one step further and suggest that Namshiel couldn't use  all the power actually available to the Fallen, if the Fallen were released from the coin.  The power of the fallen resembles the mantles, in that the more you use it the deeper into it you go.  The Fallen are most powerful in their alternate forms as the host gives up more of their identity.  This plays into how Jim Butcher treats the Winter Mantle.  In the battle on Demonreach Harry is fighting  the tendency to draw too much power from the mantle at the expense of his control of it.  Butters is only half right about the mantle.

Possibly at any rate, I am sure Lucifer was the first to use Hellfire at any rate. Whether another angel could have done that/could access it without Lucifer remains to be seen - I think it is more of a how you see the world type thing.
I think you are essentially right, from both a logical and doylist perspective. It makes the most sense for Butters to be only partially right. But I don't fully trust Jim any more. I think he has changed his view (in his writing) about how powerful his devices are - so I am not totally on board sadly. Bit of a cynic, me.

To be honest, I just took these to be delusion. Hellfire made Harry's magic hit harder, and the Winter Mantle really DOES make Harry stronger.
Butters just doesn't really believe it, and his denigration of the Winter Mantle helps Harry feel more like a dummy being abused by Mab and his own bad choices, which is all but a hobby of his. So Harry tries to believe it too, and as a result thinks Hannah is also duped.

I mean, Harry ran on super-slippery ice, and jumped, and whatnot. He did things that are normally physically impossible... and all without digging very deep into his Mantle, after about 1 year of practice. Imagine a Knight none too worried about his soul pushing the Mantle to its limits for a decade.

Look, I would like that. Certainly, the exposition by Butters and Harry doesn't cover everything that mantles/sources of power have been able to achieve. So I do wonder about that. Although it just as easily could be Jim didn't feel the need/forgot to tie up every loose thread with his new explanation. I am very sure if someone were to ask Jim did Harry's spells hit harder because of Hellfire, he could explain it in such a way that is was clear that it was more about making Harry more angry than anything else. You have to remember Harry has achieved incredible stuff magically when his emotions are heightened, and there does not seem to be much of a qualitative difference (apart from which emotion he is tapping into) between when he draws from Hellfire or Winter than when he just draws from his fear and anger (like the scene where he killed all those Red Court vampires). Especially when Soulfire spells are clearly very different to any magic he can simply do under pressure - they make his spells more "pure".

But yes totally agree it doesn't cover everything. Butter's hasn't seen much of the crazy strength stuff - but then again, he would hardly need to. The explanation for Harry lifting 800lbs is mostly that having a crap load of adrenaline in his system and without the natural limits of pain, exhaustion and fear the human body is quite capable of pushing past it's normal limits. The running better on ice could be less physical and more mental than it appears (for instance, if it made his decision making and logic predicting parts of his brain run faster, more efficiently with less error he could naturally achieve that - half the reason we fall and run into things is our brains predictive functions are not accurate or quick enough).

Fcrate - that was the idea originally. Unfortunately we have seen very little evidence of that. I disliked the explanation too - but I think Jim went to the effort of writing that scene, so he was trying to get a point across to us. He could return to his original idea any time but we will just have to wait and see.

Snark Knight - Interesting thoughts. I think so too, it plays into the whole selfish vibe that the villains of the series have. My theory is the Fallen are unable to use Soulfire per se, as they are no longer connected to Heaven, and also perhaps because they have no desire to create anything original. Only destoy.                                                                           

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If my recollection (and interpretation) is correct, Jim has quibbled about this.

What do you mean? The WOJs I was referring mostly talk in the broader sense by Uber-powerful beings. Not really someone at Harry's level.

How is killing someone with magic violating the Laws of Reality more than say, blowing up the building? To me, both seem equally "impossible", if you want to apply, let's call it "atheist" way of thinking (as in, "Magic does not exist!") and equally possible otherwise.

I think I've read somewhere, that it's the "slippery slope", that's a problem, evil (be it killing, or manipulating minds, or other stuff) gets easier, and eventually you find yourself a warlock (like with the guy who was executed early on in "Proven Guilty", or like how Harry explains why messing with people's minds using magic is said slippery slope, also in "Proven Guilty").

Plus (I think) it only seems to apply to humans for some reason - in "Changes", Harry flattened probably at least a few dozen of Blood Court vampires (by the end, when he did the gravity trick), without, as far as I can tell, any mental consequences.

Not sure why it is more violating myself, that is more or less what Jim has written though. He made 7 very specific Laws for his reality, though oddly not specific enough (why it matters more when magic affects mortals than others). I think Mr Death has it right though, there is likely a spiritual element to why it is considered more of a major violation. I could probably wax lyrical about how messing with Time is such a messed up idea in the first place, or necromancy but I think the most straightforward answer is because that's how Jim has written it. He has created a magical system that means certain actions, certain elements have specific properties (i.e. dark magic) that make them intrinsically worse than regular magic. After all, Wizards don't seem to go any madder for burning buildings or using thaumaturgy than outright killing another Mortal or breaking into their minds. I think the main key is that Mortals are special, they have Free Will and so can write their own destinies (should they so choose). Subverting their minds takes away their choice, as does murder, rewriting time etc. This changes the universe (unmaking whole alternate universes etc). A big hint is when Harry talks to the Angel of Death and it challenges him that who is it to unmake choice and all it's possibilities by intervening with Father Forthill's incumbent death.

I think Dark magic has addictive, drug like qualities for some as-yet unexplained reason (likely to do with its source).

The way I understand it is that Laws 1-5 have the slippery slope problem, while Laws 6-7 are the "No! You'll break the universe!" laws.

All of it is addictive - pretty sure it's all considered Dark Magic. Though I do agree that the major laws e.g. Time, Necromancy and reaching Outside are all of a distinctively more terrible to Reality quality - but I am sure we will not know until we understand why it all came about in the first place.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Can Hellfire be used without a Coin?
« on: February 22, 2019, 04:04:02 AM »
The frustrating thing with the later books is Jim took the soft approach - the dumbo's feather approach - on a lot of his power ups. In Skin Games Harry talks about how Lasciel isn't making Hannah Ascher any more powerful really, she just stirs up her passion (which Fire magic comes from) which makes Hannah think she is more powerful.

Same with the pretty weak explanation from Butters about how the Winter Mantle doesn't make Harry any stronger really, it just dulls his pain and gives him more access to his more primal self and makes it more easy to use Ice magic.

Bit of a cop out, especially considering the opposite side seem to get an actual power up (e.g. Fix gets fire magic, where previously he couldn't use fire magic. Also when Harry uses Soulfire in more complex ways it really boosts the efficiency of his spells and achieves much more exceptional results). Seems like Jim did a retcon of his previous ideas for one reason or another...

Exartiem - I don't think that is true exactly. Dark magic in the Dresden Files seems to have an inherently "evil" quality beyond the intention or mindset of the user. If that were not the case, as you say, then anyone with a complex moral compass could avoid the adverse affects the dark magic has on users. Bear in mind most people do not think of themselves or their actions as "evil" even if the majority thinks they are. In the Dresden Universe there does seem to be an absolute moral authority defining "good" and "evil" regardless on how one might think about the moral quality of an action.

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Interestingly, this is partly because of what Harry BELIEVES. There is a WOJ about how magic essentially is Will combined with Power, and with enough of both you could reshape reality completely. Which is essentially what any magic user does, they are subverting their Will over the natural world, and using their Power to fund the change.

As their is a whole thing about how magic is what you believe, I think Harry is rather limited by his own beliefs, and could accomplish far more if he understood that. He might not have the Power to back it up, but he might still be able to achieve more unusual results.

Essentially the WOJ is anytime he can't figure a good enough explanation for why magic works with physics, he has the Nevernever as his cheat card.

I also believe this is why you go mad/have to be mad to mess with time, kill with magic etc. You have to believe in complete violations of the Laws of Reality.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis WAG
« on: February 07, 2019, 06:53:35 AM »
Mildly incoherent this morning, but in the interest of random gibbering. 

Quite fine! I do it all the time! Helps get the ideas out.

Jim has given us some hints of the structure.  Model the Never Never like fluid in a pipe.  The water doesn't move at the surface of the pipe.  The Never Never is the water touching the pipe. The boundary between Creation and everything outside it.  The further away from the pipe wall the more stable reality.(evidenced by time being variable in the Never Never)

Really curious about this - do you have know where the quotes are on Nevernever structure? If I understand you correctly (the Water is the NN, the Pipe is Outside? And what is the Reality/Universe in that example?

Given that the Sidhe don't have free will they aren't part of the multiverse.  Humans only thank you.  Human reality is like a tree with many branches.  Each new branch representing a choice, but not all choices.  Only important ones.(Vadderung in Cold Days referencing his model of temporal inertia)  The Mothers can see the tree grow and branch.(Cold Days referencing Harry learning of the Adversary)

I think I understand your view, as explained in your follow up post, that most Fae (being quite mortal) could exist in several realities but the really powerful Fae (like the Mothers) are so powerful that is unlikely there is more than one (which is why they can "see" all the branches of Creation). Though I have a theory that Immortals might only have just one of themselves - but we will see.

Why do the Outsiders want in?  Who knows.  But it could be more about opposition to the Creator rather than any property of Creation.  Jealousy maybe?  Or maybe they are a property of the void, anti Creation.  Model this as entropy with the Outsiders representing the Heat Death of the Universe.(Empty night.  If Jim loves physics, then as the universe expands there comes a point where there would be no stars to be seen in the night sky) 

Sorry for going on :(

No no, going on is good. Gave us lots to discuss! Quite so - it could be about opposition to the Creator, in fact I think in all cases that is highly likely. The question is why. I believe it because Creation itself makes them uncomfortable, or in outright pain. Jim has hinted at this - see the WOJ on Reality being noisy and loud. They (for want of a better word) ARE natural. They are not synthetic. They may represent Chaos/Disorder/Anti-life but that is what they ARE. Their sole reason for existing. Like a swarm of locust or a plague - but sentient. And as the current thinking is starting to go towards that EVERYTHING has a form of "consciousness" (on a massive spectrum of complexity - humans are highly complex, an atom is very low complexity etc) that would actually make a lot of sense.

The Heat Death theory as Empty Night is interesting. I always interpreted Empty Night as dissolution of reality; non-existence (no stars, no matter, no energy, no time, no anything at all). Which again I think has been hinted at in the books. Mother Summer says that should the Outsiders get in everything stops, and Vadderung says something similar about the Sleepers being released. Also the fact that when the Mothers are discussing the new branches appearing, the idea that even the Destroyer (MW) would prefer bright futures to Empty Night suggests that even Death and Destruction would be irrelevant. In such an event - as Time would be rendered meaningless - it would be as though nothing had ever existed or would ever exist. Creation ending would be a pretty crazy event - scientifically speaking, let alone magically/spiritually.

Bad Alias is pretty right, not all possible realities yet exist, depending on how many choices are currently available to mortals. Even though Fae can't do such a thing perhaps (as their will is not entirely Free, like Angels - which Jim have said have a measure of Free Will, enough to rebel anyway) I wonder whether the River People and Big Foots/Yetis etc choices affect Creation in the same way as humans.

It's too confusing to explain in a direct fashion so, consider seven branches where the Red Cap exists.  He's needed to fight at the Gates.  How many Redcaps answer the call and show up at the Gate?  All seven?  If there is only one gate, that is the question you're left to answer. 

Jim has hinted at something like this with Toot Toot.  When he needs to know Russian, he knows Russian.

I think your premise might be false there...I think there is more than Outer Gate (bear in mind Harry just saw one Gate) and they are called the Outer Gates plural. So I think each parallel version of Winter/defenders of Gates exist in each reality separately. So if the Red Cap is to defend the Gate, he defends his Universes, not Spider Man's or an alternate Harry Dresden timeline. Think on the fact that Jim and several characters have reminded Harry that within the Contiuum of parallel Earth's/Universes that Spider-Man, Star Wars and Alternate Harry Dresden all exist within Jim's multiverse. Jim even once made a joke (with a wink) that who would write several novels in separate Universes and actually secretly have them all connected in the same Multiverse (btw this is not uncommon, many writers have done this, and this story smacks of when he talks of how he created the Dresden Files when he didn't realise how crazy it was to write a massive 20-something book series).

Where did you get that hint on Toot? Very interesting info there if true. I think we can safely assume the Adversary did not get every Aurora as there would be still an nemfected mantle in play. Aurora's human self (assuming she was a scion or mortal who received the mantle, and not like Toot or Leah and comes from the original stock) is not multiverse spanning. That is impossible by the nature of Free Will - you cannot create choice if you exist in all possible choices all at once. I agree that mostly your choices are made well before you choose them (the same discussion around consciousness also discussed how it is likely that most of our "thinking" is actually done like computers do - in back of house systems that are far faster and more efficient than our consciousness, and so our choices are made long before we realise even in the moment, let alone in advance. It is our illusion of being self aware that creates the problem here) which is our advantage over the humble atom or even a mouse - we can be aware of what we are thinking and doing and change. That in itself is very significant - and how you might "cross the road" as you put it.

And yes your post did make sense - I found it very intriguing.

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