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Messages - Yuillegan

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1216
DF Spoilers / Re: Another Cowl Theory
« on: May 01, 2019, 12:20:37 AM »
@kbrizzle,

See my other response to your post about Justin vs Simon as a candidate. Just wanted to add that while the fact that Simon being older would explain how strong he was...Harry honestly had no idea just how powerful Eb or even Leah was. He even said that Eb had only hit him in practice rounds. Now I think for the drama of the scene, that exposition by Harry was necessary. However we must remember that Eb blew the top of El Castillio with a word, and also caused Krakatoa, Tunguska etc. Seriously, had Eb hit Harry properly Harry would have died. Especially as some punk in training, let alone by the time he gets to Dead Beat. Leah slaughtered two Lord of the Outer Night in a moment. They were taken off guard, but I really think Harry had never properly dueled either of them and so his claim was misleading. Not to mention that while Harry may have fought Justin in earnest, he lost twice and we have no idea how he won the third round. Harry doesn't even talk about it. So I find a lot of Harry's earlier power rankings more than a little dubious. In saying that, Cowl is still likely seriously strong. JB wrote that scene to showcase Cowl so I imagine he was trying to show him a serious threat. So he may be stronger than the others, in fact we have almost never seen him go all out on assault. Every time he has been defeated it was almost just dumb luck while he was distracted.

1217
DF Spoilers / Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« on: May 01, 2019, 12:11:27 AM »
@Kbrizzle,

A good argument definitely, and one I had let pass perhaps too easily. I will certainly agree it is possible that Simon is Cowl - the fact is JB could write however he wishes, and he could change his mind from his plan or invent a new character. Simon for me is a close second for Cowl, as you rightly point out there are inconsistencies with his mannerisms and language that would be odd for Justin. But doesn't rule him out mind you either. We don't know why Cowl despises Kemmler so and we don't know what the relationship between them was, we don't know how he came to learn Necromancy or how he is so much more dangerous than the other two, how Cowl is so much more involved with the bad guys behind the scenes, and we don't know how he knew about Bob (that alone says a lot about who he is).

I would love someone to point me in the direction of a good Simon WAG, if anyone knows where it is. I certainly think TT Harry is the least likely btw. I do hope we find out soon though who he is...or at least get a few more strong hints. I do think we need a few reveals at this stage of the series.

You are quite correct about the effect of the Darkhallow, though it was about being more than a mere immortal but about being a God. Harry keeps referring to whoever gets the Darkhallow as a junior-league god (without a frame of reference for what a major-league god is...TWG? Zeus? Mab even says how whoever holds the power will gain more power than in the history of the human race - which puts them above any mortal who became an immortal/monster/god which is fair amount of power right there.)

Also my theory about Cowl's motives for becoming a immortal Necromantic god (see: Nagash) is less about ruling a world of the undead (although perhaps becoming this new dark god would corrupt him...) but more about make all mortals into immortals, which I imagine means they would lose their souls/free will eventually. This would aid the aims of the Outsiders and the Old Ones. After a few descriptions of Necromancy, especially Capiocorpus', I believe that also reinforces the argument the Necromancy is a power from Outside, where as magic comes from Inside. Which might explain all the odd connections betweent the Necromancers and Outsiders.

1218
DF Spoilers / Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« on: April 28, 2019, 12:05:17 PM »
Morriswalters, even if he were on fire he could have thrown a death curse. Harry has made it clear that it is extremely unwise to kill a wizard unless you do it so quickly and effectively that they cannot formulate a spell OR they are so disconnected from reality to believe that death doesn't hold for them (Grevane). Even if Justin was burning (the man who first taught Harry how to block pain, mind you) I think he could still have pulled off a death curse through sheer will.

As for Simon - apart from the fact that he was a far more powerful and experienced combat Wizard than Harry, and the fact his specialty was Earth magic (and a bunch of other reasons) - it just makes more sense. There are more arguments for Justin, than Simon. As for the Darkhallow, remember that in Dead Beat Cowl makes it clear he is only doing it to stop the other Necromancers, that he believes Kemmler was a madman and that he and the other Heirs of Kemmler have been searching for Kemmler's books for sometime now. I also believe, even if Cowl is Justin and had Bob all that time, he wasn't yet mad enough to become a dark god let alone deal with Evil Bob. Not only that, as I said earlier there were still many pieces to the puzzle for that Ascension that hadn't been found until Dead Beat (not just the Word of Kemmler).


1219
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Justin have been betrayed?
« on: April 10, 2019, 11:45:06 AM »
Sorry to double post.

APG - really interesting, I had totally forgotten there was a third final duel after Harry was defeated in the second. Well that back my point up even bloody stronger - Harry didn't win even after being prepared. He lost and was captured. It was only after he somehow broke free and got the jump on Justin (and saved Bob) that he won. How very interesting. And yes, the Dark Ritual were Harry had to drink blood and was being Enthralled may have effected him permanently, whether he is aware of it is something else.

1220
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Justin have been betrayed?
« on: April 10, 2019, 11:40:46 AM »
It is logical that Justin was stronger - he is older. Harry is 16, Justin may have been anywhere between 50 and 70 (remember, wizards age slow). Justin was a Wardern. Out of however many White Council wizards, there are only approximately (+/- 10%) 200 Wardens. Not a damn lot, which is why they would only choose the strongest, most skilled Wizards (assuming they have the talent for Evocations). The oldest Wardens are between 100 and 200 years old (if Luccio and Morgan are anything to go by; remember when it comes to Wizards age tends to denote seniority). So likely not many older than them. Justin as a senior Warden (trained by one of the strongest Wizards in the world, Simon Pietrovitch) is not going to be some slouch. If Harry is top-40 at 25 (!), even for a prodigy he still is not going to surpass everyone. Justin has had plenty of time to grow and get strong, magically speaking. So assuming Harry is stronger than 2/3 of the Wardens, there are still going to be a fair few stronger - the old guard. Of which Justin was likely one. So is Justin going to be number 200, or is he going to be somewhere near the top? I think it is pretty obvious.

Justin doesn't have to be super powerful to be more powerful than Harry. Now while several Wizards have commented on Harry's magical muscle (point of order: it would help if they mentioned how they calculated magical muscle), it especially looks good because he is so young. But despite all his muscle, he isn't good at using it. Especially in the earlier books, Harry mentions this several times. So at 16, he is going to have awful energy efficiency. Which compared to a highly trained wizard soldier/police, who has been around and gathering power for several decades (think of how much better Harry is at magical combat after only 2 decades) even a 16 year old prodigy with some help from Leah (which remember, was just Dumbo's feather) is going to be nowhere near Justin's power. Think Mayweather vs 16 year old. It isn't a contest, even if the kid is naturally talented.

Just because he lived with Eb does not mean he really understood what Eb's limits where - he was only just learning the basics then (the equivalent of completing his final years of highschool). He may have some understanding about magic limits in general, but time and time again he is astonished and surprised by some part of magic that he had no idea about or didn't believe was possible.

So, what JB actually said when discussing Senior Council power sources was that they each have hidden deals/power sources that they don't tell each other about. Which makes a lot of sense, considering they have had centuries to accumulate power. But they arn't just "in case of emergency". Harry being the White Knight doesn't just stop when he doesn't need it. The same would apply. Which is not to say they don't have hidden nukes for when the shit hits the fan, but JB was answering a question about hidden power sources.

What I think about Senior Council displays of magic is irrelevant; it is Harry who found them incredible. The Merlin and the Gatekeeper stopping an army of Outsiders and Ramps with a single ward was considered amazing. The Merlin communicating his battle plan and restoring order in a split second was considered exceptional. Ebenezar's entire list of achievements (Krakatoa, Tunguska, killing Ortega with a satellite etc not to mention with a word destroying the top of El Castille at Chichen Itza and wiping out those mercenaries). La Fortier (I think) using illusion magic on an entire nation (that one was from JB). Simon's Death Curse leveling the Red Court's army at Archangel. Listen's-to-Wind duel with the Shagnasty (and he could have gone harder). Hannah Ascher's most incredible piece of magic was protecting herself from Fire in the Underworld. Followed up by her blowtorch spell. Not exactly in the same league.

Well, even if Justin never taught Harry offensive magic, that would have made Harry even weaker. Perhaps Leah taught him a lesson or two, perhaps not. But he had literally never fought anyone with magic before. Strangely enough though, even if Harry says that he worked out how to fight HWWBH pretty quickly. Either way Harry was still in a load of trouble.

Lots of assumptions, not a lot of proof. We do not know how Harry and Justin dueled or if Justin would have even fought Harry and smashed at his shield. But if we follow your theory, Justin is injured by Harry's surprise attack. Why doesn't he use his Warden blade or shoot him or use a magical device on him? Why not control the fire himself? Justin was skilled enough to do such a thing (remember how he sets his hand ablaze) yet Harry's magic overwhelmed him? As I said before - if Justin wanted to win that duel, he should have. The only real possibility is that he never intended to win in the first place, with all the implications that come with that. 


1221
DF Spoilers / Re: Another Cowl Theory
« on: April 10, 2019, 11:40:01 AM »
My take is that it wasn't really a duel. I think Cowl was never particularly worried that Harry was going to beat him. Considering how the duel went, I think he could have killed him a lot faster. So I think there was no real need to reveal his identity to someone who he thought never would have beaten him, and he might decide to kill.

1222
DF Spoilers / Re: Another Cowl Theory
« on: April 10, 2019, 10:46:10 AM »
I believe it is the running theory that Cowl was responsible for the Hexenwulf belts.

Con, isn't it possible that after a 14 years he might be interested to see how powerful and dangerous his former student has become? Remember, Dresden casts a sizeable shadow at this point. While he is testing Dresden out, the interaction was not unlike that between an old teacher and former pupil.

1223
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Justin have been betrayed?
« on: April 10, 2019, 02:00:59 AM »
Nadia, groinkick I think covers this pretty well.

Harry's whole assertion he is in the top forty wizards in terms of magical muscle (out of what, 5000 wizards?) has always been a bit arrogant. He barely has any idea of what the others are capable of. He doesn't go very regularly to Council meetings, and he has been asserting that statement since the beginning. Only recently has he even seen any of them in action. Jim also says that most Wizards, especially Senior Council types hide how much power they really have (I say types as there are quite a few wizards who are probably powerful enough and senior enough to be on the Senior Council, like Eb was, but aren't - take Klaus Schneider the Toymaker for instance).

But even if Harry was top-40, then Justin is would be top-15. We must also consider, Wizards get stronger as they age and as their knowledge increases and their technique gets refined their spells get much more energy efficient (see Luccio in battle). So Harry's knowledge about Senior Council level abilities is pretty small. We have had very few demonstrations of Senior Council magic, and all of them have been incredible. Well beyond anything Hannah Ascher ever did.

We know next to nothing about the actual duel, nothing about Justin's abilities (apart from that no one believe Harry could have beaten him and that he taught Harry most of his foundational magic). Justin would have watched Harry's method for both offensive and defensive magic. He would know his magical flaws, and his psychological ones. So even if Dresden got the jump on him, unless he took him out straight away, any extended duel would not have been in Harry's favor. Now perhaps Harry did have help, perhaps there were actors that assisted him unknowingly. I suppose it all depends on how you see the circumstances. If Justin intended to lose that duel for a greater victory, then probably the person helping Harry was Justin! But if Justin was taken by surprise (whether he improvised a solution to survive the outcome, or whether he was actually murdered) then perhaps there were other players. Elaine is a good one, though if she were trying to fight off an Enthrallment I find that difficult to believe. Outsiders, Circle/Black Council, some other player? Impossible to say without further information. Harry's magic being turbo-charged is interesting - though I am sure he would have noticed some extra power unless he was unleashing some special power of his own.

I even wonder if Harry's memories are accurate of the whole thing. That whole scene in Ghost Story with Leah where he relives the whole HWWBH experience is rather telling. And Jim enjoyed torturing us by giving us a whole bunch of new questions, and someone to answer them and have Harry ask some completely different ones. I wonder if someone has tampered with his memories of that fight.

1224
DF Spoilers / Re: Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?
« on: April 10, 2019, 01:33:04 AM »
I'm pretty sure that Corpsetaker died when Harry killed him, and he just stuck around due to the whole "death is a spectrum" thing.

Thank you Nadia, I am glad the point I am trying to make isn't getting completely lost.

Mira - If it helps, from the perspective of a Mortal with no supernatural awareness (in the Dresdenverse) death seems very final. You are gone when your brain gives up. And we can only speculate and use the knowledge we have to guess at What Comes Next. But as readers, we know differently. Like anyone with awareness of the supernatural in the DV, we know that there are many different afterlife realms (Heaven, the Greek Underworld, Hell, Gehenna etc).

So when the Corpsetaker died (in Luccio's body) the body experienced the scientific process of death. Corpsetaker's spirit left that body and went Between rather than straight to What Comes Next. The difference between being dead and gone. We don't know why or how. And yes, the final dissolution of the Corpsetaker into What Comes Next did come at Mort's hand in Ghost Story. But Death is a process, not an ending. That is clear in our universe, and in Dresden's. You can see in the DV that a person's Spirit/Soul leaves the Mortal/Material plane and goes into the Spirit part of the Nevernever (I define Between as slightly different than the regular Nevernever as it must be much further from Dresden's world than say a place like Faerie, where the rules are mostly the same). Beyond even that, there is the after-after life (Heaven and Hell etc). Which again, does not mean the Corpsetaker stops existing. Far from it, the Corpsetaker now has to deal with being in wherever it went (presumably Hell). Which is not to say it couldn't come back either. Rare, but not impossible. Food for thought.

Cozarkian - I will create another thread to expound on the whole Summer/Bad Guys connections. Yes I had considered that the Corpsetaker must have had some knowledge to stop him/herself passing on fully. I think you are essentially right, the act of using the Death Curse at all might have precluded the Corpsetaker from being able to survive as a spirit in Between. Kemmler may have thrown a Death Curse - believe that there is a theory floating around that his Death Curse was the Tsar Bomba explosion. However, it may also not have been as I believe JB said that the White Council put a magic lock on him (like Eb did to Mavra) so that he couldn't use magic, and they cut him up and burned him. This was how he wasn't able to cheat death again presumably, though of course we don't know that he isn't active from beyond the grave...

1225
DF Spoilers / Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« on: April 10, 2019, 01:07:04 AM »
Cozarkian - pretty much my thoughts exactly. It makes the most sense based on the available knowledge we have. Though I might add, I do wonder if Justin gave up on Harry as much as we thought. I wonder if the molding of Harry is still on-going, especially the way Leah talks about it. But as you say, he already has one starborn.

1226
DF Spoilers / Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« on: April 10, 2019, 01:02:25 AM »
I think DonBugen and Nadia have pretty much covered what I was going to say in response, Cozarkian.

I can concede that it would have been perhaps neater to say "wrong" rather than "lies", as it leaves less room for ambiguity and I think you can see that Jim in his quote is covering that. Mab only knows what she thinks she knows, but beings like Uriel know absolute Truth. There is a significant difference. And that Mother Summer quote that Morriswalters found reinforces that. Beings with Intellectus (especially of their size of Intellectus) are on the Cosmic level. Also Angels don't lie unless they are Fallen - so even if Uriel wasn't speaking, it couldn't have been another Angel filing in. And it certainly wouldn't have been a Mortal/Soul from Purgatory - I suspect that would go against everything they are trying to do. Lying is a Sin - especially by Immortals (remember how angry Uriel gets when he discusses one of the Fallen lying?) It compromises Free Will.


As to why it was important that JB skipped that scene, I was highlighting that just because something happens explicitly in the books that could be a hint at interference by the Big Players, does not necessarily make it so. Mostly when something of that nature occurs, it happens off-screen or JB highlights it massively on screen. Which is not to say those instances of internal dialogue are not instances of the Big Players interfering, but I found it less likely because of such examples as the Ghost Story/Changes inconsistency.

1227
DF Spoilers / Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« on: April 09, 2019, 08:07:16 AM »
Plausible, very plausible. I think it is highly likely there have been beings affecting events behind the scenes since the very beginning. In fact they pretty much had to have been, in cases like Uriel, because that it all they do all day long. They are always working. Just because Harry with his incredibly, hilariously limited perception is unaware is no bench mark for them NOT affecting events behind the scenes.

In terms of in the text, they are good possibilities but hard to prove. Just as easily, as some have pointed out, his conscience or sub-conscious etc. Jim doesn't tend to entirely let every act of choice be influenced, in fact he tends to highlight it massively when it does occur.

We should also not forget, that when Uriel in Ghost Story reveals the seven words whispered to him by the Fallen, that scene is different and that thought does not actually occur in the text during Changes. Even though we learn his memory was altered by Molly, that scene does not actually exist in the text of Changes.

And I do agree, just because Uriel called Mab a liar doesn't mean Mab though she was lying. She simply assumed what she said was truth. I don't think the fae have to tell objective truths, only believe that they do. Otherwise the fae would be WAY more powerful than they are. I think the only beings that might fall into that category are beings with Intellectus (funnily enough, like Archangels and the Mothers).

I don't believe Uriel can lie. Both as a limit of the universe/his being and his code of conduct. The Fallen are liars. That is one of their main point of difference. Whether Uriel can lie to immortals is another thing, but I suspect it would only be lies of omission etc rather than outright lies. It is a sin after all.

1228
DF Spoilers / Re: Another Cowl Theory
« on: April 09, 2019, 07:56:27 AM »
An interesting theory, but I think Cozarkian is correct about that WOJ. I think DonBugen also touches on the fact that JB is an award-winning, best selling novelist who is quite well educated on writing. Chances are (and if you think back to every book/poem/script etc analysis you may ever have done) that he will follow certain conventions of story writing for maximum effect. He may subvert them as well for gain, but the reason they are conventions is because they work.

So unless there is a really powerful reason for him to not use certain story-telling conventions, he probably will. In fact, he often does. There are some really great Dresden Files analysis' out there, and there is a mountain of info about story crafting that Jim himself has written. So I tend to use that as a base when constructing my own theories. And give JB some credit, his reveals are normally pretty good. I am sure when the time comes it will be a really good one regardless of who Cowl actually is.

And to answer your theory of what might happen, peregrine, if Dresden did recognise this background wizard at a Council summit as being Cowl (like the Wizard with the Curly mustache) - I think Harry being his normal level-headed self, would attempt to murder Cowl on the spot. And then settle for binding him when everyone had tried to restrain him. However, I would assume that the Cowl in your theory would have been preparing for such a thing (a la Emperor Palpatine), and turn it on Dresden somehow - perhaps even violently. But that's just my thinking.


1229
DF Spoilers / Re: Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?
« on: April 09, 2019, 07:44:22 AM »
You miss my point, or perhaps I wasn't very good at making it...  Harry did the killing, he didn't throw a death curse... That's the last act of the one dying.  If anyone was going to throw a death curse it would have been Justin, since he was the one dying... Unless of course he died instantly before he could throw it at Harry... Or for some reason he did want to...

I think we can both agree on the process of a Death Curse then. My point is exactly that, Justin did not throw a Death Curse which is very strange. We do not know exactly how Justin died or what killed him, though the implication in the text was that Harry's magical fire did it during their duel. Which generally I think would not kill a person fast enough to stop them performing a Death Curse (unless it was like Luccio's heat ray through the brain).

Cozarkian, thank you. That quote from JB was exactly one I was looking for. I mean seriously does he have to spell it out? Your theory is plausable, though of course we have no real way of knowing how exactly Justin came back from his body death. But you are exactly right; there is too much emotional weight with him as a character, and Elaine, and too many references to him not to use him as such. Elaine almost certainly did not just stumble into Summer. And remember, there is an ongoing undertone that Summer are really trying to kill Harry, and seem to have very odd links to the bad guys.

Corpsetaker's death is an interesting case study. I think because Harry shoots him/her in the back of the head with no warning is the most likely reason that there was no Death Curse leveled at them. Whether Corpsetaker used a Death Curse as a means of continuing in the Between is another matter. Although I would point out, it was not necessary at all for Dresden's shade/soul to do such a thing to be able to be a part of events and still have a form of magic. He did have some pretty top-tier help though, and his body hadn't died so there are some differences. Though as Mab says, "Death is a spectrum, not a line". So my theory is that even if Justin had "died" it doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to come back again through his knowledge of Necromancy (assuming he is Cowl/can perform). I think it is reasonably apparent in the DV that you don't instantly go to beyond, or cease to exist. You soul/spirit carries on and exists and functions at a higher level. Which makes sense in a story that involves Necromancy and multiple afterlife destinations.

1230
DF Spoilers / Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« on: April 09, 2019, 07:21:59 AM »
Morris,

I think that is a plausible alternative to how Justin came to posses the Spirit of Intellect. However, I think inferring Justin was cautious to use Bob relies on information we don't actually have - namely why Justin took the Spirit and why it didn't kill him. Remember, Evil Bob nearly killed Harry just by giving Harry power he couldn't deal with. We don't know when the suppression of Evil Bob took place, but we can reasonably guess it was while Justin had him. Mostly I base this on the idea that because Bob is mostly the same Bob with Butters because Butters saw him as he was while Harry owned him, Harry likely saw a less "Evil" Bob when he was introduced to the Spirit otherwise Bob wouldn't have been who he was to Harry. Why else would Harry have rescued him from the ruins of Justin's house? The Harry we know rescues good people and friends.

An excellent point is how Bob survived the fire, I can only imagine that as the place was being destroyed by Harry's spell, he went to retrieve Bob. And at this point must have assumed Justin was out for the count.

I can see how you got to that thought, my bad. I wasn't trying to imply that Harry killed Justin with mundane methods rather than magical ones. I was trying to make the point that I don't think he would have succeeded at killing Justin with magical means generally, and so something is unusual and doesn't add up about the duel. The trial is a strong indicator that both A) someone actually died, and B) that is was Harry's magic that was responsible. Which is why I think most likely Harry DID kill Justin, but Justin came back (somehow). The council obviously have magical forensics, JB has discussed this a few times, so I am sure they could work out whether someone had actually been killed. It would be harsh even for the White Council to execute someone on the possibility they might have murdered someone. Did the Council ask this question? When was that I don't recall?

Thank you, I have been mulling this over for some time and I think I even made a stab at writing it down once. But the most recent discussion on Justin's survival energized me a lot so I ended up finally putting it all down.

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