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Messages - g33k

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121
DF Spoilers / Re: WOJ search for Uriel/Odin deal for Murphy.
« on: January 25, 2024, 12:53:37 AM »
Given that he had the entire arc of his Dresden books planned out since the first one got published, I doubt that.
But a lot of the details weren't decided in advance.

Waldo Butters was meant to be a 1-use throwaway character, or maybe a very-minor recurring one, not become one of Harry's key allies.

Jim didn't decide (until just beforehand) which of Denarius/Darkhallow/Mantle Harry would pursue when he needed to power-up to get Maggie back.

I'm pretty sure there are other examples, too.


122
DF Spoilers / Re: Great another starborn theory, this time with vampires
« on: January 25, 2024, 12:47:02 AM »
There is a theory going around that the Red King and Pa Wraith are also starborn.
"Going around..." where?
Haven't seen it here.

... Evidence for this is a) for Pa Wraith the outsider protection thing he has. According to the theory he was a starborn of a previous cycle. Hence his expertise on starborn. He was sacrificed and came back with something extra. The defense thing he has.
Pretty sure it's wrong for Raith Père -- think I read WoJ stating that he just this cycle became aware of the whole "Starborn cycle" / Outsider thing, & decided he wanted to become a power-player, acting-upon instead of acted-upon... that's why he has such a substantive library:  he was educating himself.

... As for the Red King his entire motif just gives outsider vibes. Lord of the outer night. Anyone? ...
But it's not just the RK -- his inner circle was the "Lords of the Outer Night" (I call them LOONs)
That said, "Outsiders" and "Outer Night" may just be coincidental, or may not be -- I'm very suspicious of this, myself!  I do tend to think there's a connection, though I'm not absolutely convinced of one.

We also have the WoJ that the LOONs got so powerful because they actually were able to capture (and addict to their venom) the beings that the Mayans had been worshiping as gods.

I think the Ramp's are creatures of the Nevernever, natively; I note several similarities in the descriptions of the native-form (without fleshmask) Ramps, and the Ick... and suspect them of being related entities.

I think some long-ago Maya (or maybe Olmec... or even older) sorceror was exploring the deep Nevernever and got possessed -- or maybe summoned one, and got attacked/infected; thus becoming the Red King.  IIRC WoJ says the Red King was about 6K years old...?

How all of that might play into an Outsider connection escapes me; maybe one (or both) of my theories is wrong, or maybe it's as simple as Ramp entities being every bit as susceptible to Outsider influence/possession as humans are...


... It also explains a lot of things such as why Harry keeps getting things that whisper in his head. First Lash and now the mantle. Its Uriel helping to prepare Harry for whats to come. 
I think Lash & the mantle are both training-up Harry's willpower, yes!
But we've already seen that many Outsiders use psychic attacks, I don't think we need to look for another "possession" in the BAT:  I bet Harry has to face off against multiple psychic Outsider attacks at one time.

123
DF Spoilers / Re: WOJ search for Uriel/Odin deal for Murphy.
« on: January 02, 2024, 10:37:18 PM »
Which kind of goes back to my original point about Murphy, what was originally appealing about her in my opinion, was her mortality.  The amazing stuff she was able to do stopped being believable ...

She was an extremely-advanced martial-arts practitioner; many of them are startlingly-competent.

I personally knew a "Murphy"-like person -- cute, small, blonde, senior aikidoka.  Nice lady, and when she came at you seriously she was the scariest person I've ever met (this with years of karate behind me).  I have literally seen another black-belt take a glance at her then turn and run away, on the mat!

When Murphy added the Sword at Chichén Itzá... yes, that turned her dial up to "11," and I liked it -- for her character, for the story -- that she decided to put the Sword back down again, afterwards.  The post-Changes Murphy was back to being a mortal, not Supermurphy; but she was much more being stretched to her limits, and barely-keeping-up.  Before that, with a couple of exceptions (vs the Nightmare & vs. Papa Raith), Murphy was mostly on top of even the supernatural situations.

From the high-fantasy action-adventure aspect of the Casefiles, Murphy was no longer a "viable" adventuring character to accompany Harry.

124
DF Spoilers / Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« on: January 02, 2024, 08:51:43 PM »
...  Also we presume it was magical homework they shared, it could have been a math assignment from school ...
I'm pretty sure it would have been both!   ;D

But IIRC Harry specifically cited some magical homework, where they each did half & then copied one anothers' answers.

... For some reason Justin attempted to enthrall Elaine first, if she was in fact enthralled. Target of opportunity? As he taught them did he find her more vulnerable? ...
"Target of opportunity" works as a viable theory; maybe Justin had been looking for a "natural" opportunity to get one of them alone, and just took the chance he was given.  Maybe he even rushed his own plans a bit, noting a better chance than anything he had seen in a long while.

Honestly, though, I don't think we have enough info to make even mildly-informed guesses, only unsually-Wild WAG's.


... Here is another thing that really doesn't add up.. Supposedly Elaine stayed home from school that day because she was sick.. Harry cut class to return home to be with her..  Where did Harry think Justin would be during this?  Did Justin have some kind of day job? Was Justin so involved with his magical research that he wouldn't notice that Harry cut school? Did Justin even care if Harry cut school?  Apparently it was no surprise that Harry would cut school, Justin and "enthralled Elaine" were waiting for him with a straight jacket..  The point I am getting at is, Justin counted on Harry cutting class and coming home when he did, and then trapping him.  Would he have attempted it if Harry had not cut class that day? 

Cite please?  I recall it as Harry getting home from a normal school-day, not that he had cut class.  But maybe I misremember.

I can't imagine Justin had a "day job," though.  He wouldn't have had a mundane job, and he was intentionally off-radar to the rest of the wizarding world.

Does it matter (why does it matter) whether Justin had been planning for Harry to get home early, or just get home at the regular time?

125
DF Spoilers / Re: WOJ search for Uriel/Odin deal for Murphy.
« on: January 02, 2024, 06:05:58 AM »
...  Actually I think it would have been better if Jim has stuck with Murphy's original reasons for not wanting a sexual relationship with Harry.  They were very good reasons, once they were abandoned, while he tried to make her more kick ass than ever, I found her a lot less interesting and a lot less believable.
Murphy had to die (or maybe "die").
She was just a mortal, and Harry was moving further and further up the supernatural food-chain.  She could do amazing stuff against Valkyries, Whampires, etc... But put against something like a Naagloshii, she'd be d-e-d dead.

126
DF Spoilers / Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« on: January 02, 2024, 06:00:42 AM »
... But was he equally tough on Elaine? We know nothing of his lessons with her.  Why weren't her and Harry taught together? ...

I think Harry&Elaine were (largely) being taught together.
They certainly shared a lot of homework assignments!

I'm sure there were some lessons specific to each of them, while the other did bookwork &c.  Their respective strengths and weaknesses differ, after all (not that we know a lot about Elaine's, but we see their preferred methods aren't identical).
 
I presume Elaine got largely-similar treatment to what Harry got; if Justin was notably harder or easier on her, we'd have heard about it by this time:  it's the sort of thing kids remember even into adulthood.

127
DF Spoilers / Re: Chekhov's Arthurian Athame
« on: December 24, 2023, 03:57:08 AM »
...  I also think that it would be interesting if Elaine Mallory had some relation to the Arthurian legends.  I haven't read Le Morte in years, but may pick it up over the holiday to see if anything jumps out.
There's maybe an Elaine or two in the Arthur/Merlin corpus... or three, or a dozen...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_(legend)

128
DF Spoilers / Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« on: December 23, 2023, 03:38:45 AM »
🙄 he already did technically, Demon Reach.
Tho as is usual your misconstruing a simple concept and plot twist that doesn't "govern the rest of the series", that's the greatest thing about the DF, you can enjoy it on many levels. Plus he has the time travel book last? Heh, I disagree. What I said was a tin foil theory to begin with, I literally started with an apologetic don't try because it's nonsensical. To share your doubt immediately after our ahem, history is bad taste. Opinion vs opinion that's enough said for me..
However be aware "I'm not sure" is synonymous with "I don't think". And  when people try to simply unname a theory as viable based on that.. well, the saying goes,",those who say you can't shouldn't interrupt those who already are".
And this has been a point of contention on how people come at each other from it has been the gathering of much heated debate and mod warnings for years.  Because it is not discussion, it does not promote discussion. And it should not exist here. It drives people away as is it's intention and is a perversion of etiquette, designed as such. Quite frankly, I'll go all ten rounds with anyone who disagrees and all day after. Stop trying to bully me, please and thank you 🙏
(Oh and you have no idea what the original theory was, because seven of nobody is running around when bodies are being tossed behind them to escape.. and proper etiquette would be to do as I asked previously and be curious about that)
With all due respect:  I apologize for whatever degree of "misconstrual" and/or "bullying" you perceive; none was intended.

I likewise find your reply to me filled with "misconstrual" and mis-statements as to what I had said.

I think it best not to engage further.

129
DF Spoilers / Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« on: December 23, 2023, 12:28:32 AM »
Just tin foil, don't ask lol, but I've begun to consider the mental confusion around the fights, the circumstances, what exactly happened and when... I think Justin was just HWWBH's meat suit in the end. So potentially it wasn't the gas station that banished him(unless the memetic timeline has been told to us wrong) Justin empowered and summoned hwwbh but... He didn't use the cosmic vending machine. He used his own magic to summon an outsider into the world... We don't know when or how many times he actually summoned him, how long he had such an ongoing relationship with him. But he created through magic and choice an outsider knight in the world. I think that changed him on a fundamental level, opening him up to future access. Similar to what happened with Molly, except reversed. He created something by synchrony that left him open to it.
My standard tinfoil theory is Justin was just another variant of Kemmler...(used to be Harry, but i realized..)To go along with my theory of the 7th Dresden and MM, and the usual mirroring of things... Harry learned from Kemmlers Bob how to do necromancy, leads to him learning how to do the body swap thing, leads to the same results.. the 7th version is greater than expected. Took out original Kemmlers, maybe stole a body along the way. And since the council hadn't twigged to two Kemmlers they really are quite sure they killed THAT one, which they intended to.
Why for either theory tho? It's been hinted/theorized at Kemmler might have been trying for a reincarnation.
So HWWBH or Alt Kemmler, both wanted Harry to
(click to show/hide)

I'm not sure, but I suspect Jim is too savvy a writer to hinge the entire rest of the series (from Mirror Mirror onwards) on a bunch of multiversal twists&turns, on 7 Harrys (Harries?) and alt!Kemmlers, etc etc etc ad infinitum.

I think most of his readership would find it not worth following the complexities.

He's already -- IMO -- on the borderline of "too complex" with 1 multiverse novel + 1 time-travel/retcon/repair-the-Sacred-Timeline novel.
 

130
DF Spoilers / Re: WOJ search for Uriel/Odin deal for Murphy.
« on: December 22, 2023, 09:27:47 PM »
I think that is a bit of a toss up, those really offended can simply quit the series...

In the end, Jim's a commercial author -- it's how he makes his living.  He doesn't want to make too many of his fans too unhappy, or his book-sales will begin falling (and so will opportunities like movies or TV-series, and other ancillary income).  I don't think he's seeing that yet.

But then again... he's had zero DF novels released since he killed off Murphy, so I don't know that he knows, yet.

... Maybe that's why he has treated Molly the way he has, she remains strong, while her and Harry do have love for one another, there is no romance.
It's pretty clear that Molly is still harboring feelings for Harry; and Harry still admits (at least to himself) some sexual attraction (he may not be vocalizing it; but to Molly-the-Sensitive, he can't deny it).

So while there may not be any active "romantic relationship," there's still a background tension there (much as there was between him and Murphy, for many books).

131
DF Spoilers / Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« on: December 22, 2023, 09:19:03 PM »
My personal theory is that since we now know hhwb wasn't sent by Justin, he was sent for him...
I don't think we know that.
I don't think we know very much at all, really, about Justin DuMorne or the events surrounding Harry's & Elaine's separation from Justin.

It's still possible that Justin was a necromantic-skull-stealing, outsider-summoning, black-hearted villain.

At the opposite extreme, it's also possible he was out of his depth, but still trying to "do the Right Thing."

It is, IMO, most likely that the truth is something more complicated than either (simple) extreme.

132
DF Spoilers / Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« on: December 21, 2023, 05:11:55 PM »
I'll re-introduce my own WAG here... part of which is that Justin isn't (necessarily(*)) the "evil wizard" Harry thinks he is.

He's "old-school" and harsh, for sure... fastball baseballs as shield-training, &c.  But the mover & shaker in this was Mab(**).

She knew the Starborn Cycle was cresting, and that Outsiders would be making a special push.  Mab wanted a Starborn as Knight (and likely in other roles too), so she "arranged" for Maggie LeFay to:
  • "discover" the Starborn cycle & hints of a "starbabe"plan
  • "accidentally" meet the Leanansidhe on multiple occasions, sufficient for Maggie to think of Lea when she needed a protector for Harry
Then she stepped in when Malcolm died, to hide Harry from everyone searching (foreshadowed, story-wise, by Morgan being anti-scry'ed by Summer)... until Harry's gifts showed, and it was time to get him trained.

Then -- and this is where it gets relevant to this thread -- she got Justin to do the training (either by tricking him, or as repayment for debts-incurred); note how Justin's "harsh" training was often thematically-similar to a "Winter"-driven harsh training.


(*) Critical counter-datum on the "Justin is evil" front:  taking Kemmler's "EvilBob lab-assistant" skull as his own, hiding it from the WC (***)
(**) Mab and/or her handmaid, Lea

(***) On the third hand, I'll introduce another WAG -- Bob isn't really "afraid" of Mab/Winter; he's an active _agent_ of Winter, one of Mab's spies amongst mortal wizards / the White Council.  Justin, in this analysis, rescued the skull on the orders of Mab (much as Harry got the Word of Kemmer on Mavra's orders):  Mab got the skull to Justin so that he could get it to Maggie's Starbabe (which plan was already underway at the time of the final Kemmler-fight) in a way that didn't even hint at a faerie affiliation.

133
DF Spoilers / Re: Justine DuMorne is Kemmler (Theory)
« on: December 21, 2023, 02:48:06 PM »
... No, it wouldn't be the Doogie Howser effect, because outside of a young body, he'd be inside Harry's head and conducting that body...
By "the Doogie Howser effect" I mean the ancillary social-interaction stuff, where everybody presumes you are a relatively unskilled/incompetent child, and a legal minor needing parental-permission-slip to do anything "official."

The annoyance and inconvenience is something I presume body-hopping warlocks quickly discover.  Yes, they can use magic to offset some of this -- especially mind-controlling black magic -- but as Harry often points out, magic is often a less-than-ideal solution to many problems.

134
DF Spoilers / Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« on: December 20, 2023, 08:02:28 PM »
Even if she wasn’t enthralled he was planning to act against Harry.  Why… then?  Why the clumsy action with poor preparation?
I don't  think we have enough info.  Furthermore, what info we do have is highly-suspect:  every time Harry recalls the events or has a flashback, we see something very different.  We know harry was right off of a mental trauma, with consequent likely memory-issues.

Could be he was ordered or pressured to by The Walker.

He Who Walks Behind set up the whole gas station scene to test and prime Harry into violence. Walkers are major league you can't summon one easily. One just happened to be around at Harry's first true trial?

Might be the walker was already waiting in the wings and dumorne (cough kemmler cough) was under pressure to prepare Harry for it in time. 

What if it wasn't even communicated / collaborated between Justin & HWWB?  What if Justin wasn't in league with the Walker at all, but detected the Walker's arrival (much as Harry and Eb did the cornerhounds in Peace Talks) then panicked, and tried to force the Starborn wizard(s) to be ready...?

135
DF Spoilers / Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« on: December 20, 2023, 04:19:24 AM »
...
What changed that made Justin move so suddenly that Harry perceived nothing out of the ordinary until he got home.  That doesn’t sound planned it sounds rushed… desperate.

We’ve seen that the slow whams are the best.  This was pretty clearly a desperate act.

But have we seen that?

I don't think we've seen enough different kinds of Mental Whammy; and wizards, with their highly-versatile magic, probably have multiple kinds of whammy open to them (unlike, say, Ramps or Whamps).  We don't know what Justin was doing.

As Mira says, maybe it wasn't even enthrallment...

Elsethread was posed the question:  what if it was an attempted Nemfection?
Would young-Harry, half-trained and in a panic, have even known the difference?

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