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Messages - babel2uk

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121
DFRPG / Re: The Nevernever in Other Parts of the World
« on: October 04, 2010, 10:10:20 AM »
I can heartily recommend Mark Chadbourn's Kingdom of the Serpent trilogy for this kind of thing - Jack of Ravens, The Burning Man, Destroyer of Worlds. The main setting for the series (and indeed the two trilogies that precede it) is modern world with the old gods, magic and faerie creatures returning. The Faerie are organised into 20 or so courts with different methods and ideologies. The second and third books in the series take the main characters away from England and America, to Mediterranean Europe, Egypt and China, meeting with the local version of the Faerie in each place (they're trying to recruit them for a War).

The first two trilogies (The Age of Misrule and The Dark Ages) are set in Britain and are mostly concerned with celtic mythology, and I'd recommend anyone who wants ideas for how to bring Celtic mythology into a modern day setting should read them.

I know the first two trilogies were released in the US over the last couple of years. I think that the Kingdom of the Serpent may have just been released, or is due for release shortly. They've been out in the UK for a while.

122
DFRPG / Re: Living Circle
« on: October 01, 2010, 07:39:02 PM »
Something similar occurs in Fool Moon:

(click to show/hide)

123
DFRPG / Re: Blessed Bullets???
« on: October 01, 2010, 03:23:04 PM »
And what is wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing, as long as you don't count to 4....

124
DFRPG / Re: Blessed Bullets???
« on: October 01, 2010, 03:00:11 PM »
I think it may better to empower the players on how they wish to do deal with such an issue and run with it. Afterall, if my players like the concept of the holy man blessing their weapons and doing battle with the forces of darkness with them, then I would allow them to do so.

You'd be opening yourself up to allowing the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch... ;D

And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." Monty Python and the Holy Grail

125
DFRPG / Re: Living Circle
« on: October 01, 2010, 11:40:20 AM »
Actually - re-reading the rules - the way summoning works is by effectively making the summoning circle into a Ward (it explicitly states this in the description of summoning) so having a level higher that Legendary is actually fairly much common practice (pages 272 and 273), but the important distiction is that it is a Ward not a Threshold.  The conviction etc of the ritual participants has no real effect on the strength of the circle as a container for a demon, the caster (with help from any participants who can do so) sets the level of that ward when they summon the demon into the circle (the guideline in the book is a minimum complexity of 10). On it's own a circle has no threshold but what the caster gives it (basically by working it as a Ward).

Edit: I'm not sure that it would work as a prayer circle though, like Belial666 (and here was I beginning to think we weren't going to see eye to eye on anything! :o  ;D) I'm extremely dubious about an automatic Threshold rating for such a purpose. In fact I think I'd go as far as to say that it just wouldn't work. You could physically block a demon with a member of the faithful using Holy Touch (compelling their High Concept to force them to disregard the idea of a physical attack), or you could reinforce an existing threshold using Bless this House - but that power specifies that you need something to work with in the first place. I think the best idea for a Prayer Circle type effect (if that's what the original poster intended) is to look at a spectacular use of Righteousness (Desperate Hour) using the circle as a powerful focal point. I Guess you could kind of invert the effect into the circle of Prayer to eliminate or drive off a powerful demon, but that would generally be a scenario finale type event rather than a day to day one.

That said, if you don't think it would make the Faithfull ludicrously overpowered (bearing in mind you'd effectively be giving them the equivalent of a thematic Ritual power at no extra cost to any abilities they already have) then there's nothing stopping you from house-ruling it.

126
DFRPG / Re: Living Circle
« on: October 01, 2010, 09:29:39 AM »
I believe the idea of aiding a caster is covered by the Using Help section on page 272 of the rulebook. I'd be wary of allowing the 'Aided By' aspect use, unless you're using that as shorthand for the person performing a Declaration as part of the ritual preparation - but then as a GM I'd want to know what they're actually doing to help with the prep, and require a roll on the appropriate skill.

In short, there's nothing stopping you using a ring of people as your circle. They can only aid in the preparation or take backlash if they have no magical ability. If they have the Ritual (or Thaumaturgy) ability they can make rolls like the caster and add power into the spell in the same way the caster does, with the same risks as far as failure go.

127
DFRPG / Re: Need help with unusual catch for Inhuman Recovery
« on: September 29, 2010, 04:28:02 PM »
I'd go with a +0 catch of "Self Inflicted Wounds" - basicly his toughness won't work against someone with the same 'essence' as himself - i.e. himself, or the wizard whose essence he's drinking.

Feeding dependancy would work quite well for this power if you need to reduce the refresh cost, but you'll need to work out exactly how much of this stuff is available, and what - if anything - could replace it in a pinch (for example might he discover that blood from a living person will clear the hunger track?).

You could model the take-over like Magical Sponsor Debt. Maybe allow him the opportunity to shrug off an additional mild consequence in combat per scene as the way in which that debt accrues (since normally it's done by allowing a free invocation of an aspect, and I'm not sure that's as clear cut an application in this case. (It also makes it a conscious thing on the players part to allow the wizard more control, rather than an automatic gain every time he uses his toughness).

Trading Physical for Mental Consequences kind of negates the central healing portion of the ability. It could work if you want to allow him to choose on a case by case basis whether to make that switch or to allow the Inhuman Recovery to work as written. I'd look towards making the more powerful use a point of Sponsor debt as well as the mental consequence. It would after all be upping the Fast Recovery aspect of the power up to the level of Mythic Recovery (as far as physical wounds go), and it seems fair to me that the price for that would be significant - but a conscious choice by the player.

Obviously it comes down to whether you think the player would abuse that version of the power.

128
DFRPG / Re: Thaumaturgist Character Help
« on: September 28, 2010, 05:02:50 PM »
Using minor rituals make it potentially faster to amass the aspects but you really aren't doing something skills can't do anyway.


D'oh, I'd forgotten about the Declarations option. My mistake on that. However, I'd still limit that to a number of rituals equal to your Lore at most. After all your Arcane Sanctum and Library limit your ability to declare using your Resources skill (I believe this was covered in another thread), so using Discipline and Lore over and over and over again under the excuse that "it's a different ritual each time, so the previous use doesn't count" is still a major abuse of the system. The inference I get from the rules is that each skill is useable only once to contribute a declaration to a spell.

And it isn't against the setting as it HAS been done. Several times.

I'd ask for examples, but I have a feeling that you and I would view the same events in radically different rules interpretations.

Back to the subject at hand...

Richard's point is probably the most important one that's been raised so far. Each spell is a story. Come up with a nice description of the ritual and preparation, then fit the mechanics around that. Doing the oposite (crunching the numbers, then trying to use them to justify a spell effect) kinda takes the magic out of magic, which is a greater sin by far than any abuse of the game rules.

For the prison based sacrificial magic I'd point Tbora towards "HellBlazer: Hard Times" and there's a graphic novel by Warren Ellis that has a similar set up (I can't remember the name, but it's either 'Strange Kisses', 'Stranger Kisses', 'Strange Killings' or 'The Body Orchard' - the main character is an SAS Combat mage called William Gravel - there's a comic series featuring him called 'Gravel' too, but I've not read them yet)

129
DFRPG / Re: Thaumaturgist Character Help
« on: September 28, 2010, 03:36:24 PM »
This build CAN do epic rituals just fine. If you want an "Epic" ritual, just spend 8 hours applying aspects on yourself with minor rituals. That gives you 240 aspects. Tag them all into a single big ritual, add your effective lore and you have a ritual complexity of 485 for any type of ritual, 490 for disruption.

A very similar point was raised on a different thread. I didn't agree with it there either - but chose not to say anything. In my view, if you're performing a little ritual to give yourself a bonus to the effect in a larger ritual, all you're doing is performing a small ritual as part of the Preparation stage of casting, it's not a separate ritual at all. As a GM I'd view it as a grotesque abuse of the spirit of both the system and setting to allow a character to do what you're describing. It's the equivalent of saying "Well, I've been jogging on this treadmill for the last eight hours, but only in 2 minute bursts - one after another, why should I feel tired?". I'd concede to using small rituals to give you Aspects that could be tagged or invoked to give you a bonus on the control rolls during the casting of the big ritual, but they wouldn't add anything to the effect of the ritual at all.

You got an effective control of 6 for lethal thaumaturgies and a conviction of 3. You fail to control 3 shifts of power (and thus need to take 1 backlash to keep casting) every 81 exchanges. You could, potentially, cast a spell of 2187 shifts taking a total of 9 backlash

As far as I read it when you take backlash on Thaumaturgy, you take ALL of the shifts of power accumulated up to the point where you fail the control roll as Backlash, so in that example if you fail your control roll at the 2000 shift point, you'd be taking a 2000 stress hit in backlash to continue the spell.

130
DFRPG / Re: Torture?
« on: September 27, 2010, 03:46:14 PM »
Physical torture is primarily a tool to disorient and break the subject's will to resist - it's mostly about wearing them down until they're pliable enough to do or say what the torturer wishes. The best way to model it for this system would probably be to allow the torturer to tag or invoke any physical consequences when engaging in a mental conflict with the subject.

131
DFRPG / Re: Convincing a Denarian to give up their host.
« on: September 27, 2010, 01:33:08 PM »
PapaGruff raises a good point actually, it does seem that the Host has to give up the coin, not the Denarian give up the Host. It may be that once someone has picked up the coin the Denarian is bound to that person for better or worse until that person dies, or gives up the coin. Lash appears to be a somewhat special case, and cheats in that respect by allowing an external attack to destroy her rather than Harry. In that case, no amount of threat or torture will induce a Denarian to give up the host - and that makes sense, it's the mortal that has the free will to choose here(whether they realise or not).

132
DFRPG / Re: Convincing a Denarian to give up their host.
« on: September 27, 2010, 12:58:11 PM »
Given that the host would not age with the Fallen inside, that could well last for a very long time.


I'd say that if you're binding the Denarian's powers to the extent that you outlined, you've bound up the helpful things too, so the host would age normally.

The Denarian may relinquish the host, depending on their personal outlook. But you may be signing the death warrant for all of the monks at that monastery, I can't see the other fallen allowing that sort of thing to go unopposed for long - even if it's Nicodemus deciding that he has a use for the Denarian in question.

I'd also seriously question the ability of a PC group to really deliver on that threat. There's the risk that the Denarian will simply kill the host before you can carry it out, or will throw everything into a bid for freedom (and force the PCs to kill the host). In any case I'd say that any Wizards who perform such a curse/punishment will not only be effectively killing the inhabitants of that monastery, but will also be painting big targets on themselves for an organised strike from the more intelligent and deadly Denarians.

133
DFRPG / Re: Captured Denarian (Secrets of Boston players staty out!)
« on: September 27, 2010, 11:47:00 AM »
I'd go with a twist on #2. You say this is one of three that have come to the city. He's obviously been sent in to attract the attention of the local Knight of the Cross so that the other two can see who's working with him, what his base of operations is, and where he keeps the sword.

Why shouldn't the sword be stolen as a bargaining chip to get the PCs to do the work of locating the artifact, and then work in an exchange? It's a temporary loss of a major character artifact rather than a permanent one, thrusts the character's doubt of his own worth direct to the fore-front (after all, if he was worthy of the sword, would god have let it be taken from him so easily?).

There's no reason for him to burn the church and kill the priest, maybe he takes the priest hostage and they release him later to deliver the offer of the sword for the artifact. (It's even more fun if they have no idea what the artifact is - like Harry didn't know what the Word of Kemmler was in Dead Beat). If you're feeling particularly evil you could one of the two unrevealed Denarians being still in their coin and have it slipped to the priest while he's a hostage, which gives you a nasty little twist at the end of the scenario. You could even try to set it up so that the final confrontation in the scenario gives the PCs a clear choice of saving the sword or saving the priest from being possessed. With the reward for making the hard choice to sacrifice the sword to save the priest being that while the sword is destroyed it doesn't pass from the PCs hands and can be reforged to their own design. Obviously if they choose the sword over the priest their doubts about their worth are ongoing and they've lost a friend and ally to the darkness. Either way the character doesn't actually lose the sword - but the players don't know that, and it's nicely dramatic.

134
DFRPG / Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
« on: September 27, 2010, 08:02:19 AM »
I'm not totally sure that the various Speed powers are the best model. Getting rid of the initiative bonus and Athletics bonus doesn't seem to balance against ignoring borders between zones. It seems like trading away a lot for a little in return. I'll have to think about it.

Um, you're not just ignoring boundaries in the system sense, you're able to move between zones that would be impossible even for someone with the athletics and initiative bonus. The number of zones is just a rough idea of distance, and you don't have to worry about obstacles in the intervening space at all. The speed powers are absolutely the best model for short range teleportation. I don't see how being able to teleport should automatically qualify you to act faster in combat, or perform athletic tasks any easier - where I can with mythic speed - though I can see a case for a dodge bonus.

As a suggestion, just up the number of zones permitted a little to maybe 5, and give the character a +2 bonus to dodge rolls - representing a flickering in and out in one place. I'd also be inclined to put some sort of stress cost per use in there (maybe similar to Evocation with the cost rising for every zone crossed above your Discipline, or for any extra passengers carried - it just stops it being grotesquely overpowered if used in combat), or as another option you could require that the teleporter has either been where they are going to 'port to, or requires a moment of concentration (and a discipline or conviction roll) in order to teleport wherever they are going. If you have the limit of only being able to teleport to somewhere they have already been (unless it's line of sight), I'd be inclined to allow the distance permitted to increase.

135
DFRPG / Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
« on: September 26, 2010, 08:43:58 PM »
Which is why you would want to add World Walker as a prereq before someone could use that item.

Richard

I'd respectfully disagree. World Walker gives a slight bonus to survival and lore checks concerning the Never Never, otherwise it just allows you to open rifts to and from, and sense where the membrane is thin enough to do so. While I don't agree that the teleporter enchanted item should work as described with any sort of predictable exit point, what your suggesting is the equivalent of saying that a character who possesses a wand that generates a fireball effect, should have to buy Channelling (Pyromancy) in order to use the wand. If the item already creates a given effect you shouldn't have to also buy a Power that creates mostly the same effect.

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