Bad Alias & Kbrizzle: Whilst BA and I have no hard evidence that Lord Raith is the first Wamp, he seems a helluva lot stronger than the next Wamp. Lara never would have tried such an overt assault had he been at full strength, and he was almost completely drained. He certainly fits the description that Jim talked about (if a Wamp had strong sorcerer-level powers). He had his 'Kiss of Death' move, a one shot feeding move. Very dangerous in close-quaters. I imagine before Margaret stymied his ability to feed, he would have generally had a big reserve tank of energy (which he likely replenished often). He seemed to have extensive knowledge and powers that his rivals seemed unable to match. None of which make him the oldest, but we really haven't seen or heard of anyone in the White Court coming close. Plus his apparent immunity to magic (even from the Blackstaff - that is incredibly significant, that we haven't even met any other being who is so protected - including the ALL the Faerie Queens i.e. even the Mothers). Whilst Uriel seems to ignore the normal rules a lot of the time, we cannot be sure even he is so protected. So I think that even if he isn't the progenitor of his race, it hardly matters. There is a reason why he became the White King, and the others didn't. I imagine he is one of the oldest at any rate. The White Court is very Darwinian, they don't let threats survive. Rather like humanity - they don't rush to punch everything in the nose that is dangerous to them. They find the appropriate tools and learn as much as they can about their foes. Then they trap or kill them. There is a very good reason why they are still around, and the Reds and the Black Court (who might be overtly stronger), are not.

Kbrizzle: I pretty much agree with everything your saying there. My only point of contention is that the Whites are the oldest. The "Cradle of Civilisation" exists in a lot of places, but Italy isn't one. South America, particularly Peru and Norte Chico, are far older appearing between 4700-3200BC (roughly 5-7000 years old) whereas the Estruscans appeared roughly after 900BC.  Which makes a lot of sense in a way. The Red Court, whilst highly organised and hierarchical, is a theocracy. The White Court is much like the Ancient Romans, with great Houses and Nobles, and a nominal King or Emperor ruling over - a Monarchy. The Whites are more overtly refined and subtle (though not necessarily more complex) than the Reds who are more aggressive and savage. They seem to reflect the periods they may have risen in, just as much as the surrounding culture and area that they came from. The fact that they predate the White Council is not that surprising, considering Merlin would have existed not much earlier than 500C.E. which is 1400 years later...and Merlin formed the White Council. But yes, the Red King is probably at least 4000 years old, if not quite a bit older. He and the Lords of the Outer Night are in a different league to the Whites in terms of raw power. Probably why the Blamps were so hated is they became a significant, if not one of the most significant, Powers in the space of a few decades and/or centuries when normally it takes a few millennia to become a major player and it scared the crap out of everyone.

KurtinStGeorge: Yes the constant retconning does make it hard to keep up, but the normal rule as you say is to go with the most recent information. It does make sense of course that Jim would change a few minor details, as he gets older and better as a writer he can see better and more interesting paths to take, and ones that will create less problems. I don't mind a lot of the changes he has made by and large as most have been necessary and for the better. I would love a sort of Q&A answer that tidied up the plot holes and inconsistencies, but I am just being lazy. You can fix those problems if you think about it. For instance, it might be that the Reds ARE creatures of the Nevernever and have trouble with threshholds (like all magical creatures) but they also have work arounds (like Wizards), AND soul gazes aren't likely as they don't have what HARRY would call a soul, but have *something* that remains of their original soul and of course have their hypnotic stare ability. It is even hinted and somewhat discussed that a Soul isn't merely one thing but more a collection of things, and how you define, interact, gain or lose it is highly complex and doesn't always fall into the magic system that Harry understands. So there is actually quite a bit of wriggle room left.

isoycrazy: Thanks for the heads up, I haven't read Bigfoot yet! But I think, as you speculate yourself, that perhaps she wasn't as inclined to kill him not just because of True Love (which would have killed her demon), but perhaps because she was feeding on a non-human mortal that was probably a bigger meal magically speaking. I also imagine it is exceedingly rare, to the point that Thomas seemed certain that the first feeding was always fatal. Also you will notice apart from Connie, no other Wamp has been mentioned as being in this category (past or present). Shame, fear and perhaps survival all might play there part in that. Which of course shows the gap in Thomas' knowledge (and could also be a retcon/rewrite of Jim's) but essentially means that without killing your first feed, the chances of becoming a full-blown White Court Vampire are very very slim. Which also lends itself nicely to the idea of mortals and choice, in that you as a mortal can still subvert the normal rules with your choices in ways the more supernatural creatures find difficult. Choosing to feed and not kill? Would definitely make you an unusual vampire to say the least. I wonder what effects that would have?

Just Al: Quite possibly, but not necessarily. The time frame doesn't work as well if it were Aztecs. Although as that passage also mentions, this story is quite possibly somewhat apocryphal and a mix of half-truths and fantasies. The main point is that the Reds captured a bunch of scary Gods, and the LoON and the Red King fed on them. Interestingly, that Paranet Papers update discusses that those Gods were still alive when the Reds were destroyed, and might be making a come back.

Well true enough. Assuming there is a continuum of reality and unreality. There are no certainties in life.

The way it was looked at in ancient times is that reality was sort of like a cosmic egg, floating in an endless sea of chaos. If you consider it that way, the borders are the shell of the egg, and the sea is the Outside.

In a way, everything is a matter of definition. But for the purposes of the series, I think the Walls are very much a literal barrier with a fundamental difference to the matter of the Outside (for want of a better word...can unreality have matter? Mordite?)

The easiest and most clear definition would be to understand what existed before reality (if there even was a before...although Jim says the Angels predate Time itself - which makes the whole concept of before somewhat pointless). Cause and Effect have no place in such an existence. Which then would lead us to the nature of TWG and Creation itself, and it/their purpose. I would love Jim to write a fantastic theory that suits the rules that he has made, but I cannot be sure he will go that deep.

Language makes this whole thing more complicated. In many cultures and languages other than English, Past is not "before" and Future is not "after". Sometime Past is "left" and Future is "right", sometimes "below" and "above" respectively. And many others.

So as you imply, it comes down to how you look at it, in that way. But I also think the Author's intent should not be diminished or dismissed - and I think in a quantitative sense, he considers the Nevernever and our Universe distinctly and intrinsically separate. Food for thought!

Arjan, while I normally love a qualitative answer, at this stage this answer isn't.

It has been flatly, explicitly stated several times in the books and in WOJs that there is an intrinsic difference between The Outside/The Netherworld and the Nevernever and our world. We are not told why. This is a fundamental mystery to the series.

Ortega explains the origins of Mordite to Susan in Blood Rites, in Turn Coat Harry makes the statement the Mistfiend is from the Nevernever and is infused with Mordite (although later Harry always refers to the Mistfiend as an Outsider...so this seems to be either a mistake in Turn Coat or a full on retcon), and many many more examples besides. But they constantly and consistently distinguish The Outside/The Netherworld as something different from the Nevernever and our universe/world. One such WOJ even explains that Outsiders look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into, implying the Nevernever is unique to Dresden's universe.

I do get what you're saying, sometimes the ambiguity is on purpose and is up to the reader to interpret. But not in this case. I have yet to see or hear of one reference since the book started that says the Outsiders are part of the Nevernever. The clue is in the name OUTsiders. They are Outside trying to get In. If they are already in the Nevernever, they wouldn't be called the Outsiders.

In DnD - Outsiders are part of the established multi-verse just in some far corner. Whilst this could be the case, it seems Jim has written it differently on purpose.

Thank you Con, that is most interesting! I did remember reading something about how the Red Court Leeched from a tribe of gods, but couldn't remember where.

However, that actually only explains how the Lords of the Outer Night became gods/godlings. It doesn't explain the origins of the Court, as that passage implies the Red Court existed and were active and dangerous around that time - they had previously conquered the Mayans and then went after the Incas. Presumably they also conquered the Aztecs and the Olmecs and all the others.

So the original vampires of the Red Court, including the Thirteen who became the LoON and the Red King, where did they come from? Ariana seems to imply it was the Red King himself. If so, what was he originally? A man who became demonic, or a demon that emulated a man? Something of both I suspect.

I have a long standing theory that all Vampires come from the Outside. But have to change in order to stay. There is no supporting evidence for this, only speculation. But consider all Vampires are leeches - life energy or blood (life energy in physical form perhaps?) - and all of them prey exclusively on Mortals, specifically humans. Whilst some of them seem to be able to feed on other things (such as animals) they don't seem to prey in immortals much. But they can - as evidenced by the Paranet Papers. Vampires feature more heavily than any other supernatural race or threat, except maybe Faeries. I suspect this due to their significance in the series.

The Red Court are probably the oldest, although I suspect the Jade Court could give them a run for their money. Both Courts could well be several thousand years old, appearing perhaps 2000BC. If the Jade Court don't think the whole Qin (Chin) thing is going to work out (as Jim often says) which began approx. 200BC, they could be very old indeed as Xia dynasty (the first dynasty of the area that became known as China) begins around 2070BC.

So I suspect they appeared all around the same time: as humanity developed civilisation (around 3000BC or so). Whilst many cultures had been around at this point for some time in China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, Australia etc. Civilisation first seems to crop up around 3000BC approx. A significant event in human history, though the degree depends on whether Jim is including a Creation event in his timeline (we are dealing with Angels and Gods etc). Anyway, I suspect while plenty of supernatural things had been around (such as the Old Ones and Outsiders), some were just getting started. So the early Gods (who became the Old Gods) were probably around in various forms and names, and the survivors quite probably went into new cultures and adopted new masks (which became Mantles), as the Paranet Papers implies. The Fae probably were not around - there wasn't a hell of a lot going on in Ireland or Europe for that matter.

So the vampire creation starts around here. If they were merely hungry creatures from the Nevernever, drawn to humanity that might make sense. But I think some of corrupted humanity may well have sought out the Outsiders for power, and in order to sustain their terrible power and immortality they had to feed off the rest humankind. Outsiders hate humanity. Not just creation, although that is part of it, but they seem to not only want to obliterate everything but enjoy making mankind suffer. They like getting us to turn on each other and ourselves. Remember, the Outsiders were Inside once before and ruled the planet but did NOT destroy it. They tortured humanity first. Why? No idea. But I suspect this is why Vampires must feed.

Everything we know about Vampires tells us their very existence is an affront to Free Will. In order to become a Vampire, you must kill someone. In order to stay powerful and sane, you must continue to feed. The more you do the more you want to kill. But the act of becoming a full vampire is a Choice in most cases (BCV are the exception - but more on that soon). Reds turn their victims half-way, but the victim must kill someone for the full transformation. White Court are born as the offspring of a WCV and a mortal, but also must kill someone during their feed to become a full WCV. We know almost nothing about Jade, but if they are anything like the Chinese vampires, they also feed on life force (and I imagine a kill is necessary). They all seem to be able to mind-control mortals. WCV use sex and feeding to control their victims. Reds use some sort of eye-induced control, plus their highly narcotic saliva. BCVs use flat out mind control and can even push their power into a mortal human or animal and turn them into a nastier, rabid monster. Once turned, all vampires seem to have very little Choice left. Including self-determination of what they will be (this could be linked with Naming). WCV (maybe because they are relatively new, only showing up around 900BC) seemed to have developed traits that allow them to disguise effectively from mortals and get close, and as such are weaker than other vampires (unless they draw upon their limited reserves of power) but can cross thresholds. Reds seem to be slowed, but can push through (but leave a chunk of their power at the door). BCV cannot cross at all. So I think this all could point to the similarities with Outsiders.

I think Black Court Vampires are different for a few reasons. They are the newest having only been created 600 years ago, and come directly from something truly awful (Drakul). Drakul seems to be a hell of a lot stronger than the Red King and his Lords, or the White King (assuming Lord Raith is the original White King). Also though, the BCV turn their victims directly (their victims never have to Choose to kill to become a BCV). This might be something to do with their heavy association with Necromancy. Perhaps in order to turn a victim, you have to drain it dry and then bury it in it native soil (like in the myths) and then they are 'resurrected' no longer really the person they were before. But I think as Vlad Dracula botched the ritual of turning himself into the first Black Court Vampire, he was subsequently more vulnerable than the others too despite the massive strength he got. And he removed the Choice to become a BCV, it is made for you when you are their victim. Real question is why Dracula did it at all - considering he was Drakul's son, as a Scion he should have been more than strong enough already when he Chose. Perhaps he wanted more, perhaps he only Chose after he died. Either way, Drakul wasn't impressed with the result. Perhaps Drakul has been the one creating the vampires all this time, hence why he wasn't especially impressed with Dracula's poor attempt.

Anyway, back to the Reds. The original myth of Kulkulcan is that he is a boy that was born a snake and grew too big. Maybe that is similar to the Red King - perhaps he was the first mutant of his kind. And then he fed on the real Kulkulkan or whichever god. Or perhaps he made a deal with something hideous, or was possessed. Perhaps he was something horrible that entered the mortal plane.

The really interesting thing is of course, is what were the original gods? Wizards with pretending to be gods, perhaps with no restriction on Power? Perhaps they were another species that fed on the beliefs and worship of humans? Perhaps something else all together?

Of course, "Vampire" could just be a category like mammals or even animals, where the beings are all somewhat similar but their origins are completely different. Still though, the fact they are all Courts and have similar characteristics is intriguing and suggests a shared origin.

Great topic Ser Scot!

Bad Alias: Pretty much. All we can do is wait for more information on one or both...which is probably years away.

How do we know that again?

Basic math and inference...although I have a nagging feeling there is WOJ backing it up. In DB in the initial assault in Sicily, the White Council lost 38 Wardens. Harry says directly there are only about 200 Wardens on the Council. But he says basically 20% of the White Council is wiped out in a day. He also constantly and consistently mentions that precious few Wizards are capable of combat magic, and most are Wardens. I believe Backup also puts it at Between 1000 and 2000. I think we can guess even if there are roughly 7000 Wizards capable of being on the White Council, only a small amount would actually be on the Council due to a variety of factors such as lack of resources in finding these potential candidates, the increase in warlocks, the distrust of the council, and predatory actions by sinister actors such as the Fomor.

I think Maeve was always crazy.

Yes - but in a manageable way. Remember when we first meet her in Summer Knight? Crazy, but not self-destructive. Only later does she become infected by Nemesis...from either Leah or Aurora. That's when she really goes off the rails and starts being able to lie and wanting to throw off the balance, like Aurora.

Fairies die. They sort of melt because they are mortal and not mortal, so they are partially made of ectoplasm. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Don't recall where.

WOJ 2014 AMA
Matter from the Nevernever dissolves into ectoplasm in the real world, but the faeries leave a corpse when they die. Explanation?
"Faeries are a unique case in the Nevernever, as the beings who basically straddle the worlds. Plus there are other reasons which are none of your beeswax just yet "

Kindler: Maybe so! That would fit nicely, but sadly we have so little information about that time not much more we can add. Still I like it - it has the right flavor of things.

Bad Alias: I am 90% sure Drakul is an Outsider. Which one is the question - but I am a bit less certain on who. I can't imagine he is some nobody Outsider, but probably not an Old One (they seem to be rather Apocalyptic and altogether insane), so the third Walker seemed a good fit. But who knows!

Here's some more evidence about the Black Court not fitting with the rest of the game. Free will is a constant theme in the series and its integral to any shift from human to other. Scions, white, and red court vampires all have an aspect of free choice before they change. So do wizards in fact though it's broader in that case. But black court vampires are a glaring exception. If you're turned you're turned. Its a violation of free will, an extension or subset of necromancy. If you look carefully at the laws of magic all of them, except the 7th, except the one about outsiders, specifically ban magic as it is used to override free will. Murder, murder through forced animal tranformation, time travel, enthralling others and invading minds, necromancy, these are all violations of free will as its defined in the series.

Great stuff there! An excellent observation - the Black Court vampires get zero choice about what they will be. Indeed, there have been some hints that Black Court vampires are essentially somewhere between reanimated corpses and controlled spectres. Perhaps a melding of the two. They have more Will than the average undead spook, and yet are very much enthralled to their sires. Harry even notices that Mavra isn't really a "she". It is an "It" a animated monster, but nothing really living or human or gendered about it. It begets some serious implications on how the Outsiders work. You will notice that apart from their terrifying speed, strength and general toughness - they can both invade and enthrall mortal minds (violating Free Will) by creating both Thralls and Renfields. They also seem to be able to to this to animals. Beyond that - turning into smoke or even other animals suggest a level of tranformation not normally possible. Plus they seemingly can become Wizard-level talents over time - but their magic is horrible and disruptive (especially to other dead things). Their abilities seem to match up to several of the Laws of Magic. Obviously a botched job creating them though, as they are so full of spirit energy they are massively vulnerable in certain areas. Fire, Sunlight both disrupt magic. Decapitation is commonly used to dispatch the undead. Holy Water - suggests a certain spiritual connection to the antithesis of Heaven. Garlic is unusal...not sure how Jim will work that in. But it fits the lore. And of course - they cannot flat stick cross a threshold without permission. While many beings suffer from the threshold problem, only Outsiders seemed to be similarly hampered. If we consider the borders of Faerie as the threshold of reality, and the Outer Gates as the front door, the situation is very similar.

Actually I think all the Laws of Magic are about Free Will. Including the 7th. When you reach beyond the Outer Gates, you might violate your own Free Will and potentially another's (as we don't know the mechanics of reaching beyond the Outer Gates) perhaps you have to sacrifice someone. Or of course the fact that while you are exercising your Free Will to invite them in, you risk all of Humanity's Free Will when they are here.

Bad Alias: Time Travel overrides Free Will by creating problems in the time lines perhaps, you are enforcing your will over the destinies of others. But that is only one such possibility.

Kbrizzle: Well that is true, I did misunderstand who might have trapped him in your theory. I certainly think it is more likely the good guys trapped him than the bad, on that we agree. It is certainly possible he is a trapped Nfected Dragon. But which Dragon then? Not Ferro (metal) or Pyro (Fire) or Sirio (Lightning/Air/Earth) for certain. Leaves only Water and Wood. And WOJ is that there are only two left, when Michael killed Siriothrax he only left two remaining. I just don't see big bad Drakul as the Dragon of Water or Wood. I suppose yes it isn't gospel (Harry's categorization) but since Jim has confirmed it in interviews, it does feel pretty solid.

I am sure Drakul isn't his real name...but why label yourself "Dragon" if you were hiding? Or had stopped being one when becoming human? Why would anyone label you that way either?

But as you yourself have guessed, the Outsider in question may not have had a choice in becoming human. Whoever trapped him was not giving him the option. Quite right that they never have mimicked Mortals, they hate being constrained and don't really need to. However, as you say, trapping him might have been the best his foes could hope for (think Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith - she couldn't kill him but she could slow him down).

A very good question! If you kill the Outsider and they just respawn in the Outside - why wouldn't Drakul just suicide? I think the clue is in the wording: "He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form". This is why. He cannot leave his mortal body even via death, or perhaps on his death he will be truly destroyed.  Either way he is stuck. As one redditor mentioned, this has similarities to Lovecraft's Magnum Opus "The Shadow Out Of Time". Which as we know, Lovecraft was killed for his knowledge. In a the book, a being that can travel through space and time invades and posses the mind of a man and they swap roles. The man experiences life in prehistory, and the alien experiences life in the man's present. The problem is for these creatures, they become trapped in the bodies of people trying to avoid more horrible entities.

Finally, I would like to point out here and elsewhere that the Devil connection is probably wrong. Drakul has been around for 600 years...and the Antichrist is meant to show up during the End of Days. Seems like the End of Days has not yet happened...as evidenced by it all still existing. If he is the Devil himself - similar to the World of Darkness rpg - why is he still in command of Hell? General's who abandon their armies for too long tend not to be in charge.

Also according to WOJ the Devil wants reality. He is apart of our world. Outsiders, on the other hand, do not. They have no limits.

Kbrizzle: The Outsiders seem to promise everything you want. Mortals want power, knowledge, immortality etc. The Outsiders can provide. Immortals want Free Will and the ability to overcome their limitations, the Outsiders will provide. The cost? Your actual Will. Maybe not all at once, maybe not overtly at first. But in the end they all serve. It is the difference between the illusion of choice, and actual choice. Maeve could lie, but she was not true to herself, and therefore against her own nature. A violation of the natural order. It felt freeing and powerful, but that's all it really was: a feeling. Most of what the Outsiders promise mortals seems to violate Choice and Free Will, either yours or another's.

Kindler: Agree. The whole life-death concept in a series that involves Necromancy and afterlife's is a bit hard-edged. Just because you're dead doesn't mean your out. Look at Carmichael and Captain Murphy, or Harry's dad. Although I think Jim has stated if you truly want to raise the dead (not just control spirits and animate corpses) you have to kill someone. A life for a life. So not sure those people would have been able to come back without killing a whole bunch more...seems redundant. Not to mention - their souls/spirits still would exist. The body may perish but the soul seems to be fine (basically the entire point of Ghost Story).

For the rest: I think we will all have to wait and see on the Drakul front. I have convinced some of you, but others require further conversation. I certainly could be wrong, but for now I have yet to see a credible reason yet to convince me the Blood of the Dragon is anything beyond what it appears - a paladin's curse (not magical btw). Sometimes gray curtains are just that - gray curtains. 

g33k: I think you summed up my concerns about Michael well. Cheers! Whether he was literally meaning that the Devil was involved in the creation of the Black Court (and that he knew that for a fact - or that it was just a mere accusation, like accusing all witches of drawing their power from the Devil - is another question). I will argue though that on further reflection, I think the Antichrist is the least likely option. Why? Because he only shows up in the End of Days anyway. And Drakul has been around for at least over 600 years. Pretty ineffective, if not downright lazy, Antichrist. Why even have a prophecy about it? I won't even go into the fact that the Book of Revelations was only added into the Bible around the end of rome, written likely about the End of Days when Nero was Emperor. Besides which Nephilim are not "trapped" they are scions (carrying the blood of the Nevernever in them, half mortal half immortal, exactly like Changelings btw). Drakul is something more...at least at current rewrite. A true immortal that has been bound inside a mortal body, for whatever reason. So Antichrist is probably a bad fit overall.

Bad Alias: Thank you