Thank you Con, that is most interesting! I did remember reading something about how the Red Court Leeched from a tribe of gods, but couldn't remember where.

However, that actually only explains how the Lords of the Outer Night became gods/godlings. It doesn't explain the origins of the Court, as that passage implies the Red Court existed and were active and dangerous around that time - they had previously conquered the Mayans and then went after the Incas. Presumably they also conquered the Aztecs and the Olmecs and all the others.

So the original vampires of the Red Court, including the Thirteen who became the LoON and the Red King, where did they come from? Ariana seems to imply it was the Red King himself. If so, what was he originally? A man who became demonic, or a demon that emulated a man? Something of both I suspect.

I have a long standing theory that all Vampires come from the Outside. But have to change in order to stay. There is no supporting evidence for this, only speculation. But consider all Vampires are leeches - life energy or blood (life energy in physical form perhaps?) - and all of them prey exclusively on Mortals, specifically humans. Whilst some of them seem to be able to feed on other things (such as animals) they don't seem to prey in immortals much. But they can - as evidenced by the Paranet Papers. Vampires feature more heavily than any other supernatural race or threat, except maybe Faeries. I suspect this due to their significance in the series.

The Red Court are probably the oldest, although I suspect the Jade Court could give them a run for their money. Both Courts could well be several thousand years old, appearing perhaps 2000BC. If the Jade Court don't think the whole Qin (Chin) thing is going to work out (as Jim often says) which began approx. 200BC, they could be very old indeed as Xia dynasty (the first dynasty of the area that became known as China) begins around 2070BC.

So I suspect they appeared all around the same time: as humanity developed civilisation (around 3000BC or so). Whilst many cultures had been around at this point for some time in China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, Australia etc. Civilisation first seems to crop up around 3000BC approx. A significant event in human history, though the degree depends on whether Jim is including a Creation event in his timeline (we are dealing with Angels and Gods etc). Anyway, I suspect while plenty of supernatural things had been around (such as the Old Ones and Outsiders), some were just getting started. So the early Gods (who became the Old Gods) were probably around in various forms and names, and the survivors quite probably went into new cultures and adopted new masks (which became Mantles), as the Paranet Papers implies. The Fae probably were not around - there wasn't a hell of a lot going on in Ireland or Europe for that matter.

So the vampire creation starts around here. If they were merely hungry creatures from the Nevernever, drawn to humanity that might make sense. But I think some of corrupted humanity may well have sought out the Outsiders for power, and in order to sustain their terrible power and immortality they had to feed off the rest humankind. Outsiders hate humanity. Not just creation, although that is part of it, but they seem to not only want to obliterate everything but enjoy making mankind suffer. They like getting us to turn on each other and ourselves. Remember, the Outsiders were Inside once before and ruled the planet but did NOT destroy it. They tortured humanity first. Why? No idea. But I suspect this is why Vampires must feed.

Everything we know about Vampires tells us their very existence is an affront to Free Will. In order to become a Vampire, you must kill someone. In order to stay powerful and sane, you must continue to feed. The more you do the more you want to kill. But the act of becoming a full vampire is a Choice in most cases (BCV are the exception - but more on that soon). Reds turn their victims half-way, but the victim must kill someone for the full transformation. White Court are born as the offspring of a WCV and a mortal, but also must kill someone during their feed to become a full WCV. We know almost nothing about Jade, but if they are anything like the Chinese vampires, they also feed on life force (and I imagine a kill is necessary). They all seem to be able to mind-control mortals. WCV use sex and feeding to control their victims. Reds use some sort of eye-induced control, plus their highly narcotic saliva. BCVs use flat out mind control and can even push their power into a mortal human or animal and turn them into a nastier, rabid monster. Once turned, all vampires seem to have very little Choice left. Including self-determination of what they will be (this could be linked with Naming). WCV (maybe because they are relatively new, only showing up around 900BC) seemed to have developed traits that allow them to disguise effectively from mortals and get close, and as such are weaker than other vampires (unless they draw upon their limited reserves of power) but can cross thresholds. Reds seem to be slowed, but can push through (but leave a chunk of their power at the door). BCV cannot cross at all. So I think this all could point to the similarities with Outsiders.

I think Black Court Vampires are different for a few reasons. They are the newest having only been created 600 years ago, and come directly from something truly awful (Drakul). Drakul seems to be a hell of a lot stronger than the Red King and his Lords, or the White King (assuming Lord Raith is the original White King). Also though, the BCV turn their victims directly (their victims never have to Choose to kill to become a BCV). This might be something to do with their heavy association with Necromancy. Perhaps in order to turn a victim, you have to drain it dry and then bury it in it native soil (like in the myths) and then they are 'resurrected' no longer really the person they were before. But I think as Vlad Dracula botched the ritual of turning himself into the first Black Court Vampire, he was subsequently more vulnerable than the others too despite the massive strength he got. And he removed the Choice to become a BCV, it is made for you when you are their victim. Real question is why Dracula did it at all - considering he was Drakul's son, as a Scion he should have been more than strong enough already when he Chose. Perhaps he wanted more, perhaps he only Chose after he died. Either way, Drakul wasn't impressed with the result. Perhaps Drakul has been the one creating the vampires all this time, hence why he wasn't especially impressed with Dracula's poor attempt.

Anyway, back to the Reds. The original myth of Kulkulcan is that he is a boy that was born a snake and grew too big. Maybe that is similar to the Red King - perhaps he was the first mutant of his kind. And then he fed on the real Kulkulkan or whichever god. Or perhaps he made a deal with something hideous, or was possessed. Perhaps he was something horrible that entered the mortal plane.

The really interesting thing is of course, is what were the original gods? Wizards with pretending to be gods, perhaps with no restriction on Power? Perhaps they were another species that fed on the beliefs and worship of humans? Perhaps something else all together?

Of course, "Vampire" could just be a category like mammals or even animals, where the beings are all somewhat similar but their origins are completely different. Still though, the fact they are all Courts and have similar characteristics is intriguing and suggests a shared origin.

Great topic Ser Scot!

Bad Alias: Pretty much. All we can do is wait for more information on one or both...which is probably years away.

How do we know that again?

Basic math and inference...although I have a nagging feeling there is WOJ backing it up. In DB in the initial assault in Sicily, the White Council lost 38 Wardens. Harry says directly there are only about 200 Wardens on the Council. But he says basically 20% of the White Council is wiped out in a day. He also constantly and consistently mentions that precious few Wizards are capable of combat magic, and most are Wardens. I believe Backup also puts it at Between 1000 and 2000. I think we can guess even if there are roughly 7000 Wizards capable of being on the White Council, only a small amount would actually be on the Council due to a variety of factors such as lack of resources in finding these potential candidates, the increase in warlocks, the distrust of the council, and predatory actions by sinister actors such as the Fomor.

I think Maeve was always crazy.

Yes - but in a manageable way. Remember when we first meet her in Summer Knight? Crazy, but not self-destructive. Only later does she become infected by Nemesis...from either Leah or Aurora. That's when she really goes off the rails and starts being able to lie and wanting to throw off the balance, like Aurora.

Fairies die. They sort of melt because they are mortal and not mortal, so they are partially made of ectoplasm. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Don't recall where.

WOJ 2014 AMA
Matter from the Nevernever dissolves into ectoplasm in the real world, but the faeries leave a corpse when they die. Explanation?
"Faeries are a unique case in the Nevernever, as the beings who basically straddle the worlds. Plus there are other reasons which are none of your beeswax just yet "

Kindler: Maybe so! That would fit nicely, but sadly we have so little information about that time not much more we can add. Still I like it - it has the right flavor of things.

Bad Alias: I am 90% sure Drakul is an Outsider. Which one is the question - but I am a bit less certain on who. I can't imagine he is some nobody Outsider, but probably not an Old One (they seem to be rather Apocalyptic and altogether insane), so the third Walker seemed a good fit. But who knows!

Here's some more evidence about the Black Court not fitting with the rest of the game. Free will is a constant theme in the series and its integral to any shift from human to other. Scions, white, and red court vampires all have an aspect of free choice before they change. So do wizards in fact though it's broader in that case. But black court vampires are a glaring exception. If you're turned you're turned. Its a violation of free will, an extension or subset of necromancy. If you look carefully at the laws of magic all of them, except the 7th, except the one about outsiders, specifically ban magic as it is used to override free will. Murder, murder through forced animal tranformation, time travel, enthralling others and invading minds, necromancy, these are all violations of free will as its defined in the series.

Great stuff there! An excellent observation - the Black Court vampires get zero choice about what they will be. Indeed, there have been some hints that Black Court vampires are essentially somewhere between reanimated corpses and controlled spectres. Perhaps a melding of the two. They have more Will than the average undead spook, and yet are very much enthralled to their sires. Harry even notices that Mavra isn't really a "she". It is an "It" a animated monster, but nothing really living or human or gendered about it. It begets some serious implications on how the Outsiders work. You will notice that apart from their terrifying speed, strength and general toughness - they can both invade and enthrall mortal minds (violating Free Will) by creating both Thralls and Renfields. They also seem to be able to to this to animals. Beyond that - turning into smoke or even other animals suggest a level of tranformation not normally possible. Plus they seemingly can become Wizard-level talents over time - but their magic is horrible and disruptive (especially to other dead things). Their abilities seem to match up to several of the Laws of Magic. Obviously a botched job creating them though, as they are so full of spirit energy they are massively vulnerable in certain areas. Fire, Sunlight both disrupt magic. Decapitation is commonly used to dispatch the undead. Holy Water - suggests a certain spiritual connection to the antithesis of Heaven. Garlic is unusal...not sure how Jim will work that in. But it fits the lore. And of course - they cannot flat stick cross a threshold without permission. While many beings suffer from the threshold problem, only Outsiders seemed to be similarly hampered. If we consider the borders of Faerie as the threshold of reality, and the Outer Gates as the front door, the situation is very similar.

Actually I think all the Laws of Magic are about Free Will. Including the 7th. When you reach beyond the Outer Gates, you might violate your own Free Will and potentially another's (as we don't know the mechanics of reaching beyond the Outer Gates) perhaps you have to sacrifice someone. Or of course the fact that while you are exercising your Free Will to invite them in, you risk all of Humanity's Free Will when they are here.

Bad Alias: Time Travel overrides Free Will by creating problems in the time lines perhaps, you are enforcing your will over the destinies of others. But that is only one such possibility.

Kbrizzle: Well that is true, I did misunderstand who might have trapped him in your theory. I certainly think it is more likely the good guys trapped him than the bad, on that we agree. It is certainly possible he is a trapped Nfected Dragon. But which Dragon then? Not Ferro (metal) or Pyro (Fire) or Sirio (Lightning/Air/Earth) for certain. Leaves only Water and Wood. And WOJ is that there are only two left, when Michael killed Siriothrax he only left two remaining. I just don't see big bad Drakul as the Dragon of Water or Wood. I suppose yes it isn't gospel (Harry's categorization) but since Jim has confirmed it in interviews, it does feel pretty solid.

I am sure Drakul isn't his real name...but why label yourself "Dragon" if you were hiding? Or had stopped being one when becoming human? Why would anyone label you that way either?

But as you yourself have guessed, the Outsider in question may not have had a choice in becoming human. Whoever trapped him was not giving him the option. Quite right that they never have mimicked Mortals, they hate being constrained and don't really need to. However, as you say, trapping him might have been the best his foes could hope for (think Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith - she couldn't kill him but she could slow him down).

A very good question! If you kill the Outsider and they just respawn in the Outside - why wouldn't Drakul just suicide? I think the clue is in the wording: "He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form". This is why. He cannot leave his mortal body even via death, or perhaps on his death he will be truly destroyed.  Either way he is stuck. As one redditor mentioned, this has similarities to Lovecraft's Magnum Opus "The Shadow Out Of Time". Which as we know, Lovecraft was killed for his knowledge. In a the book, a being that can travel through space and time invades and posses the mind of a man and they swap roles. The man experiences life in prehistory, and the alien experiences life in the man's present. The problem is for these creatures, they become trapped in the bodies of people trying to avoid more horrible entities.

Finally, I would like to point out here and elsewhere that the Devil connection is probably wrong. Drakul has been around for 600 years...and the Antichrist is meant to show up during the End of Days. Seems like the End of Days has not yet happened...as evidenced by it all still existing. If he is the Devil himself - similar to the World of Darkness rpg - why is he still in command of Hell? General's who abandon their armies for too long tend not to be in charge.

Also according to WOJ the Devil wants reality. He is apart of our world. Outsiders, on the other hand, do not. They have no limits.

Kbrizzle: The Outsiders seem to promise everything you want. Mortals want power, knowledge, immortality etc. The Outsiders can provide. Immortals want Free Will and the ability to overcome their limitations, the Outsiders will provide. The cost? Your actual Will. Maybe not all at once, maybe not overtly at first. But in the end they all serve. It is the difference between the illusion of choice, and actual choice. Maeve could lie, but she was not true to herself, and therefore against her own nature. A violation of the natural order. It felt freeing and powerful, but that's all it really was: a feeling. Most of what the Outsiders promise mortals seems to violate Choice and Free Will, either yours or another's.

Kindler: Agree. The whole life-death concept in a series that involves Necromancy and afterlife's is a bit hard-edged. Just because you're dead doesn't mean your out. Look at Carmichael and Captain Murphy, or Harry's dad. Although I think Jim has stated if you truly want to raise the dead (not just control spirits and animate corpses) you have to kill someone. A life for a life. So not sure those people would have been able to come back without killing a whole bunch more...seems redundant. Not to mention - their souls/spirits still would exist. The body may perish but the soul seems to be fine (basically the entire point of Ghost Story).

For the rest: I think we will all have to wait and see on the Drakul front. I have convinced some of you, but others require further conversation. I certainly could be wrong, but for now I have yet to see a credible reason yet to convince me the Blood of the Dragon is anything beyond what it appears - a paladin's curse (not magical btw). Sometimes gray curtains are just that - gray curtains. 

g33k: I think you summed up my concerns about Michael well. Cheers! Whether he was literally meaning that the Devil was involved in the creation of the Black Court (and that he knew that for a fact - or that it was just a mere accusation, like accusing all witches of drawing their power from the Devil - is another question). I will argue though that on further reflection, I think the Antichrist is the least likely option. Why? Because he only shows up in the End of Days anyway. And Drakul has been around for at least over 600 years. Pretty ineffective, if not downright lazy, Antichrist. Why even have a prophecy about it? I won't even go into the fact that the Book of Revelations was only added into the Bible around the end of rome, written likely about the End of Days when Nero was Emperor. Besides which Nephilim are not "trapped" they are scions (carrying the blood of the Nevernever in them, half mortal half immortal, exactly like Changelings btw). Drakul is something more...at least at current rewrite. A true immortal that has been bound inside a mortal body, for whatever reason. So Antichrist is probably a bad fit overall.

Bad Alias: Thank you

1. While I agree Ghost Story was a bit of a let down and definitely felt like it could have been a short story, it did introduce the Ghost plane of the Nevernever. Which I imagine is important for the world building, long term. As you say, it did also give us those character development moments such as the degradation of Molly, the suffering of Murphy, the building of Butters to knight, the impact of Mort etc. A lot of it was showing the void that Harry left behind. It also introduces our new mysterious evil faction, the Fomor. Finally, it was all about Harry learning that actions have consequences (which I suspect ties into the heart of the mechanics of Free Will - you will notice that Uriel finally gets serious stage time and Angels start showing up. This is a pretty big hint to how important things are in this book). There is a fair amount of foreshadowing, and also some discussion on how magic works in a fundamental way. We also get some insight into what really happened with HWWBh, and what Justin was like.  My take is that this book will definitely will become much more relevant as the series goes into it's final stage.

2. I could be uncharitable here and criticise Jim about Sanya. But I will give him the benefit of the doubt and argue that it could just come down to the writing. The character archetype of Michael (as Jim often describes) is a pillar of good - the typical paladin. So he is as close to a perfect paladin (without going OP) as Jim could write. He is noble, virtuous, wise and brave and all the other things. It is also that he is older than Sanya. Michael's teacher and mentor, Shiro, was even better (comparable to Mozart) in terms of his abilities and seemingly even more virtuous than Michael. He fills the classic Yoda/Master Splinter/Gandalf role. Michael as the second oldest is more like Qui-Gon Jin/Obi-Wan (Ep 3)/Aragorn role. Sanya then is still quite new (hence he uses things like AKs) and fits the Obi-Wan (Ep 2)/Boromir type role. Butters being both the youngest AND newest is then of course is Obi-Wan (Ep 1)/Early Spider-Man/Luke (New Hope). A bit heavy handed on the analogies, but you get the idea. I think they just fit the molds Jim has made. Plus of course for plot reasons - sometimes you need something done and you only have certain tools to hand.

3. I think what Sarissa owes Mab is complex - and boils down to a mix of protection and healing. Remember she had a terrible brain illness that Mab saved her from. I wonder even though she is Mab's daughter, if Mab could even heal her daughter without extracting a payment. I suspect not.

4. As some have already pointed out, Demonreach is in the middle of a lake and quite protected from such events. But even if somehow a tsunami did occur, as has been already stated, the Well is actually deep below the island. Perhaps below the bottom of the lake too - if Harry's description in CD is anything to go by. And I am sure the Merlin put some protection in for just that sort of frontal assault. An interesting note though is that Jim has been rather inconsistent on the Water issue with magic. I suspect when Jim first built it in, like happens to us all, he didn't fully consider the implications. So he has to go back and correct, and because he is clever and experienced he often does a very good job. There have been plenty of scenes where it has been raining that haven't affected magic in that scene. Just look at Skin Game when Uriel shows up. Perhaps Dresden's knowledge is incomplete, perhaps the degree to which this affects magic is undefined. Mostly it is used for plot reasons anyway - the water issue.

5. A most interesting question! Not that the others weren't, but this is trickier. Harry states that there is roughly 1 wizard talent per million humans. So roughly 7700 Wizard-level human talents out there, give or take. But as we know, the 200 Wardens (during and previous to Dead Beat) were about 20% of the White Council. Which obviously puts the Council at around 1000 Wizard. We also know that the Council cannot keep up with the amount of new Wizards popping up as the population has exploded. This also does not seem to include Paranet-level practitioners, but may include Warlocks and Sorcerers (in the 7700 number). Now perhaps Jim forgot he wrote that (he has admitted to that in the past - hence why he checks the wiki and has his beta readers) but I think not. It is also not clear if by the 1000 or so Wizards of the White Council includes apprentices. Which again, I believe it does not. It seems somewhat implied that a lot of apprentices got elevated to full-wizard after the events of Grave Peril in order to replenish the ranks (Ramirez and the younger wardens come to mind).  But yeah, I would say that there are not many in the actual Council. Which actually seems really odd - considering the size of the threats out there. A lot of the way Harry used to talk about it made it sound like there was in fact several thousand of them. Harry is massively out of the loop as the series stands, so Peace Talks will hopefully help answer that question (and all the many other overdue ones about the what exactly the White Council has been up to).

6. I can't quite remember exactly, but I believe there is a WOJ on Fae's dying in the mortal world. Essentially it stated because Fae are of two worlds, they don't turn to ectoplasm. However unless they had a mantle, they do not come back. The title of Eldest is normally passed on (like a mantle, yet not a mantle). Fae are seemingly grown from seed stock peoples, so I don't think the younger Gruff brothers will return. Which I imagine Titania isn't super pleased about. In fact, I am surprised how calm Eldest Gruff is. Although I think there are more small and medium Gruffs, than just what we saw.

7. Ah yes. Mother Winter. Why indeed would such a being need a walking stick? Or indeed a body? She is more equivalent to a star or blizzard on a thousand worlds. My guess? The "walking stick" is like the mantles, a part of her. Perhaps the physical representation of her ability to interact. Mother Summer always seems more mobile, and has no walking stick to speak of. When it comes to the Nevernever, and especially the Powers, I believe that we are entering the realms of metaphor as much a physical reality. Abstract concepts such as thoughts and time can have physical representations (which is really what the Mothers are, after all). Remember the Outer Gates - Harry's mind can only process so much so he boils them down into something as obvious and simplistic as those massive gates. He cannot experience reality in more than 3 or 4 dimensions. Same with when he was in Ghost Story, he can only experience a very limited view of reality. The Nevernever is very similar to the Immaterium of Warhammer 40K, where thoughts become reality. Jim used to play both types of Warhammer I believe, so I am not totally surprised.

So to get back to your question - why does she feel pain, or appear old etc? Because that is the best representation of WHAT she is, and how Mortal minds have shaped her. Consider the fact that Harry hurt her at all, and how both angry and insulted she was. Consider Uriel's reaction when Harry dropped the -el from his name. Mortal Free Will seems to have unlimited power in some deep ways...and Immortals hate it. Mortals can constantly redefine their reality, and of course themselves (to speak of one is to speak of the other really). Immortals have only the illusion of this. I suspect this is the crux of Lucifer's argument with God: Mortal's have unlimited power in a sense, and can change all of reality. Any mortal. All of them together...leads to a massive problem. Immortals were only given limited will (enough to act somewhat on their own - Jim has said Angel's at least had enough will to Fall) but cannot really change their own destinies. Why? No idea. Jim may have an answer for his series - but people have been trying to answer question like that forever. So this is why she feels pain from moving - she has perhaps lost the part of her power that allows her to interact more freely. Anyone would be upset by that - imagine if you lost your legs and then some fool tries to drag you out to him!

Sorry about the ridiculously long post, but you ask big questions!

Forumghost, I think Harry would like you. Well done lol 

As for you g33k. I agree that Vadderung is both nexus and key conspirator...but I do think the plan was more Mab's than his. If only because she has a bigger axe to grind. But she is just as calculating, and a lot colder.