With all these plots that are going on, with Mab and Lea obviously playing games against one another, with archangels sticking there nose in, with vague supernatural entities that live on islands, how are all these conflicting interests, where Dresden’s getting pulled in different directions by all of them, how are they going to play out in the future?
"I know that a lot of the folks that are generally perceived as bad guys aren’t necessarily, there are several who are currently perceived as good guys who aren’t necessarily, and we’ll continue to have those fall out over the next several books"
2011 Boston Signing

That is some WOJ that sort of answers my question.

I quite agree Morris. I am not saying that Harry is a bad person, I can hardly judge unless I consider myself perfect. I am saying that his actions might be aiding his enemies, whether he intends to or not, and I wonder whether he has been pushed in various ways to do just that. And shaped early on so that he would do those actions that might benefit his sometimes foes.

Dspringer, I will answer your questions one at a time as best I can.

Nothing in the book that I have seen says that Urial and Mother Winter are at the same level.   What makes you believe they are equivalent?   

Right, so Uriel there actually have been multiple references both in-text and WOJ that say they are operating at the same level. I am not going to do all your homework here but there are several examples. Initially in the early books, in Summer Knight, Mab and Titania are considered to have power to rival the archangels and lesser gods (SK, Ch 23, p172). Harry then goes on to say that the Mothers are an order of magnitude above them. This is partially retconned as Mab and Titania in the later books no longer seem to be at the same level as Archangels, merely being at the level of the gods (not specified whether lesser or greater, or what the difference is between those categories, but very much explained that they outrank most gods). Jim also backs this up several times in interviews - he discusses that gods (or retired gods) like Erlking and Kringle, whilst being peers of Mab, are her equals. She is the boss of the worst of the worst for a reason. In their home turf they might be more dangerous to her, but that's the home field advantage. In Dead Beat when Cowl attempts to become a dark god using the Darkhallow (specified in the book as minor-league but this too may have been retconned in favour of him being greater), a question was put to Jim of who we had met thus far who could take Mab (assuming she was outside Faerie all alone, with no army or back up). Ferrovax, Titania (coin toss), the Mothers (who wouldn't), Drakul, all the White Council with her name, all the Reds, all the White Court, a union of the old Elders of the Black Court, and Cowl if he had completed the Darkhallow. When questioned if Cowl would really be that strong from eating just a bunch of spirits, Jim replied that was how beings like the Erlking became so boss in the first place (which is why he is part of the spell), and that the power-sucking Stone Table isn't for nothing

Whilst Mab is powerful, there are WOJs describing fights between Angels as blowing up planets, which is why they don't generally get involved like that in the first place. Uriel doesn't even really do contested violence, as he just thinks about annihilating galaxies and it just happens. There are multiple WOJs on this. In text, Harry even says he knew (like knowing with intellectus) that Uriel could take out all the planets everywhere just by thinking about them. There is even a really rare WOJ replying to a fan on FB in a private group where he said Uriel has ended universes. Mab and Titania are not in that league.

And finally in Cold Days, Harry even compares summoning Mother Winter just shy of calling up Lucifer himself. If that isn't a close enough comparison...

I would argue that "estimating how limited a godlike being is" would be the only way to measure the power of a godlike being.  A more limited being is a more powerful being.  Uriel is incredibly limited, while Mother Winter is so mysterious that it is hard to tell.  Hades is very limited, although it is unclear how much of that is choice vs hard limits.  Ambiguity on power level seems a feature of the dresden universe.   

You could argue that Choice is what makes you truly powerful. But I am comparing Power (energy) and Will (the ability to direct that energy). In Summer Knight there is a good example of this. The Mothers ask Harry what happens when something is stolen (including power) and he guesses it can be hoarded (as Dragons do) and it can rendered valueless or sold (both of which are change). When Lily is turned into a stone statue she is full of the power of the Summer Knight. She has a mantle. But as she is unable to express it, unable to use her will, the Power is rendered somewhat useless. Which is not to say that she has no power. She just can't use it at that point. But on the other hand, if you only have Will and no Power what can you do? Very little indeed. Which would seem a lot to something with little to no Will of its own, but to something with both Power and enough Will to use it - like another mortal for example - you are obviously at a massive disadvantage. It is all about the balance, the ratio. It is clear as you get higher in one you get less in the other. But it doesn't change the fact you have it in the first place. So Mother Winter, Uriel, HWWBh all have strong limits. Yet in the right circumstances can change reality and affect everything on a incredible scale. So while it might be a little here or there in terms of their full bench press amount, it doesn't really matter. Power has purpose. So they can do what they need to do when it is the right circumstances for them to act.

Not sure this makes sense to me.  There are thousands of gods, but there is only one Odin and only one Hades.  So not really sure why your counts communicate anything about power. 

Well actually we don't know that there is only the one Odin or the one Hades. That hasn't been established at all. But we do know that there is only the one Uriel, the one Lucifer etc. These guys are multiverse spanning beings - they operate at on a completely different scale. The fact that there is only a handful of these beings in all the multiverse, one of each individual in fact, shows that they are far more important to the overall cosmology than a Hades or Odin.

Also do not forget that there is a multiverse.  There might be thousands of gods, but only a relative handful are active or engaged in any way with the Dresden world's universe.   And it is not clear at all (until Mirror Mirror) whether Mab/Mother Winter exists in more than one multiverse.  These other universes might have different guardians at the outer gates.   It might even be possible that in some worlds the outer gates have fallen where in others they stand.   So I can totally see thousands of gods of roughly equal power across the multiverse, with most of those simply not active or so limited in their access to the Dresden universe that they have effectively no power in that universe. 

So pretty much answered this in my above point, but you basically make my point for me. We don't know that the gods are multiverse spanning individuals. Nothing in WOJ or in the books suggests this. We do know that Vadderung was theoretically aware of possible split universes, but wasn't 100% sure. He talks to Harry about this (specifically paradoxes) in Cold Days. And yes, while you may be correct that Mab may not exist across the multiverse, it would be strange if multiple Mother Winter's existed considering she is at the same level as other multiverse straddling beings. There indeed may be different guardians of the gates in different worlds. But they would all have a power source, who might wear a different mask in each universe. But underneath those masks is the same being. Mother Winter (or whatever is under that...)

It is not clear to me how you are determining Hades is at the same level as the mothers.  The speculation that Hades is comparable to Hecate is based purely on mythology.  But neither mythology or anything that occurred in the books would give any insight as to the relative power of Hades vs the Mothers.   Can you please identify why you feel the two are equivalent? 

I have never determined that Hades is at the same level as the Mothers. In fact I entirely disagree with that. Hades and Hecate were peers in mythology, but by no means was she the level of Hades. He had far more importance, and was considered so in ancient times. I was disagreeing with the comparison that Hecate is the being that makes up SIX Queens of Faeries, two of which are Archangel level. If Hecate makes up all six, and Hades is her peer or stronger, then he would have to be stronger than two Archangels plus extra and maybe a lot more so. Which would probably put him close to the Almighty. Jim's books give a lot of power to faith and belief, and Hades isn't very actively worshiped compared to the BILLIONS that worship the Almighty (in his various names - Jehovah, Yaweh, Allah etc). It just isn't rational. Now there may be no direct comparison in the books or in WOJ - probably because there really doesn't need to be. It is pretty straight forward with the pieces Jim has given to us.

The original Merlin in the Dresden Files is a VERY mysterious character. He formed the current version of the White Council, created the Catholic Church, was keeper of the Swords, created Demonreach and was its first Warden, probably was first Gatekeeper (at least mortal wise), saved the important text from the fires at the Library of Alexandria and wrote the 7 Laws of Magic, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff. Seems quite full on. Some of the magic he has performed was so advanced, so impossible, it seemed impossible to a regular user a few lifetimes later.

However when we go searching the internet we realise Merlin is much more complicated. It was Geoffrey of Monmouth who formalised the character we know today. He combined the welsh folk hero druid Myrdinn Wyllt (Merlin the Wild) and/or Merlin Caledonensis and Ambrosius Aurelianus (a Romano-Brit war leader) to form what he called Merlin Ambrosius (in Welsh: Myrddin Emrys) (Old Welsh: Embreis).  So we have this madman prophet druid cross war leader wise man. He was a cambion (born of a woman and an incubus - a sex demon that seduced women and impregnated them with demonic spawn). This is the original source of his powers in Monmouth's stories. Eventually he engineers Arthur's birth and the kingdom of Camelot. He serves as Arthur's advisor until eventually he is either killed or sealed away by the Lady of the Lake (sometimes called Nimue).
In latin his name is Merlinus.

He became associated with the tale originally attributed to Ambrosius Aurelianus, the tale of two dragons. In it a powerful warlord called King Vortigern is trying to build a tower that keeps crumbling, and is told by his advisers that he needs the blood of a bastard to stop it crumbling. However the real reason it keeps collapsing is that two great dragons are fighting beneath it: a white dragon (representing the invading Germanic Saxons) and a red dragon (representing the Celtic Britons; originally representing the Welsh). It is Merlin's wisdom in the retelling that solves this.

Eventually Merlin in his early days goes on to create Stonehenge, uses his magic to disguise Uther Pendragon so he can sneak into Tintagel Castle unnoticed and impregnate the wife of his enemy Gorlois, Igraine. This is how he engineers Arthur's birth. 

Here is where things get crazy. In later retellings by Robert de Boron (a french poet), he is actually created to be a demon spawn to become the Antichrist in order to reverse the Harrowing of Hell (the event where Christ after his crucifixion descended into Hell to free all the souls trapped there since the beginning of the world). But he is baptized at birth which frees him of Satan's power and so the plot is thwarted. However he keeps his knowledge of past and future, has great shape-shifting powers, is a joker, and is obsessed by the Holy Grail.   

His apprentice is often Arthur's half-sister Morgan Le Fay, which in the traditional tales they are not enemies, contrary to the later works. Often she is either a lover or unrequited love interest. In some tales he is also the teacher of Vivienne (Nimue) the Lady of the Lake.

So to my thinking - we have a lot of differences and yet a lot of similarities and call backs in the Dresden Files to the original tales. Morgan's knife is a weapon involved in great magics, powerful as Amoracchius, which may not be evil in and of itself. However as the Circle had it, and it was tainted with Nemesis or whatever leads to nemesis (some say Power could be), it probably was involved in some dark stuff at one time or another. He held the swords, one which was Amoracchius under the name Excalibur, and the Holy Grail features heavily in the later Arthurian tales.

Merlin in the Dresden Files is probably pretty dead or at least out of commission. We are told he is NOT the british prisoner in Demonreach. Which could again be misdirection, or perhaps he is down there but a different prisoner. Or he is elsewhere. I would say if he is around in some form, chances are Morgan Le Fay is too and so is Nimue. In Hellboy, Nimue is the Queen of Blood and a peer of the Queen of Darkness Hecate. It would not at all surprise me if she existed too - and was in fact either underneath a fairy Queen mantle OR perhaps Nimue or Morgan or both lead the Fomor or Circle. I know this is getting a bit convoluted but there are definitely big connections.

So perhaps Merlin was half White Court vampire, half mortal. Perhaps he was a starborn too (the antichrist thing). He likely was a shapeshifter of LTWs level or higher. He also has great knowledge of future and past. He could just as easily be Harry (via TT), or related to him through one family or another.  Yes this is all quite nuts - yet there is plenty of the secrets of the future tales I think embedded in here.

What are your thoughts?

^^This.

And perhaps with aid from the Circle or Outsiders, or both, they might feel a tad more confident than last time. Remember this isn't the old Fomor. This is the collection of all those various groups who got beaten - giants, sorcerers, shapeshifters, dark gods. Lots of different mythologies have people with an axe to grind. They seem to be under the banner of the Fomor. Like the Fae, it is a blanket term for lots of different groups. Not everyone is "pure blood" so to speak.

Yes, Day One is an excellent example of what I am talking about. Harry even says to Butters when they are discussing what he is fighting "Kids believing in something has freaking power. It either created the real ones or it gave access to something similar from the Never-never that used that belief to create a place for itself in reality Harry of course is referring the baku/dream-eater entity.

And in Cold Case, Ramirez says that they feed off the psychic energy of people. Off their fear and knowledge of them. And Lovecraft helped with that, by publishing his works. The signal boost gave some of the Old Ones just that extra bit of access required to influence the world and so many cults devoted to them have popped up, particularly to Cthulu (the Sleeper).

Interestingly, Maeve refers to the prisoners below Demonreach as the Sleepers. Whilst I interpret that to mean that SOME of the inmates are Outsiders and/or Old Ones (especially considering Vadderung says that the release of the inmates would be The End), I don't believe that all of them are - considering the Naagloshii are not Outsiders (I am pretty sure).

I think the Outsider-type Entities have very different plans and goals to those from Inside. Just my thinking though. Jim constantly says the Oblivion War will not feature in the novels as it takes thousands of years to get anything done. But he could also be trying to misdirect our attention away from it as well. It does seem awfully similar to the tactic against Outsiders (locking them up, sometimes outside of reality, sometimes inside - and they all want more belief).

True Bob has been wrong before - so I agree he might not be 100% right about conjunctions. And yeah my take is because they are Beyond, they don't have the same rules apply. Which makes the banefire make more sense (it couldn't kill any outsiders that may have been below Demonreach, but it could keep them down a while).

I think Mortal wounds are what they appear to be generally in the series - but it isn't gospel.

Morgawse, Morgause...whatever you like. She is referred to by this name in the poem of the same name by A.E. Housman. She is the Witch-Queen of Orkeney who in is the daughter of Gorlois and Igraine (King Arthur's mother), Uther Pendragon takes Igraine as his wife making her Arthur's half sister. In some versions she is also Morgana Le Fey's sister too. And she is mother to Gawain, Agravaine, Garheris, Gareth and Mordred (who slays Arthur, and is his son...)

Highly convenient name considering Merlin's involvement in the Dresden Files.

So is Mab then Margause? A witch in a line of witches descended from Medea and Hecate? How do both Athame's fit in?

Mab did say she was once mortal...

Why isn't he dead?

If everything that stands upon the Earth on Halloween is mortal, from the Ladies to the Archangels, why isn't he dead? Harry blew his head off! Yet the dark cloud rushing away yowling implies that he survived?

So are Outsiders more than immortal? Was Bob wrong about conjunctions and Halloween? Are there exceptions?