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Messages - Yuillegan

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1126
DF Spoilers / Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« on: October 04, 2019, 08:34:20 AM »
Kbrizzle - I am not married to the idea of Lord Raith being the progenitor. I like your analogy about the LoON to the Leaders of the Houses. Fits as well as anything else. Although it doesn't explain why the Red and Black Courts.

1127
DF Spoilers / Re: Some thoughts on Stormfront
« on: October 04, 2019, 08:31:16 AM »
Kbrizzle - no reason he couldn't be nfected AND sponsored by Lord Raith or some such person (like Cowl). His level of ability and knowledge is unusual although some of that may also be down to Jim being a novice writer and not everything being fully fleshed out. He even talks about this in relation to veils in Fool Moon. But yeah, someone definitely helped Sells out. Cowl fits the bill better in some ways, he has a history of giving tainted gifts...and creating lackeys. But probably Cowl and Raith are working together at least somewhat...so perhaps it is both.

Bianca did kill her own employee...hence her rage. Vodyanoy is wrong.

1128
DF Spoilers / Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« on: October 04, 2019, 02:17:44 AM »
My point really is that 1) He is probably the oldest White Court vampire. Power and rank do seem closely aligned with seniority in the supernatural world. 2) The Red King is almost certainly older, and so is the Red Court.

1129
DF Spoilers / Re: 1884-85 The time that Eb took up the Blackstaff
« on: October 04, 2019, 02:10:14 AM »
Yes yes, Eb defeated his enemies. He was the ideal candidate I am sure.

But why did HE take it up. Why would he? What caused him to need it? The clue is at the end of Changes I think. He says he has made deals himself. And reminds Dresden that no one can make you do anything you don't wish to do. You always have a choice to say no.

I think this might be to do with the New Madrid quake myself. I think he needed to save his wife and failed anyway.

1130
DF Spoilers / Re: Some thoughts on Stormfront
« on: October 04, 2019, 02:07:16 AM »
Morris - Explicitly, in Cold Days. Lily (Summer Lady) tells Dresden about Nemesis, and tells him of his first three cases and confirms it.

The Nemesis part is generally accepted to be factual - as every being that knows of it that Dresden encounters confirms it's existence one way or another.

Many believe that Maeve lied to Lily, and therefore the information is compromised. Personally, there is no valid reason that I have yet heard why she would lie. Nemesis, and indeed Maeve, gain no benefit from lying about those cases.

But I am always open to theories.

Mira - you are pretty much right about what Sells was. However, none of that disproves him as being infected. The statement from Lily was "It changes that which ought not to change. It destroys a father's love for his family by twisting it into maniacal ambition." She is directly talking about Sells. Everyone always assumes Nemesis allows some big magic change, like allowing Fae to lie. But changing someone's love and turning it into something evil, something terrible like horrible ambition is pretty bad right on its own.

1131
DF Spoilers / Re: Mab's Limits
« on: October 03, 2019, 10:52:53 AM »
Of course, but that applies to any character in any given tale.

We can still extrapolate information however based on the rules that the series has set up. So it isn't unreasonable to guess at her relative power to other beings of the series.

1132
DF Spoilers / Re: Which god do you want to see in Dresden Files?
« on: October 03, 2019, 10:51:08 AM »
Is it on youtube? If it wasn't, I didn't see it.

2008 Comic-Con Q&A @2:40
Quote
You use a lot of mythologies in your books.  Which is your favorite to work with, and how do you chose them?
I wish I could give you a cool sophisticated answer for that…  (he basically says what he uses is based on the story, and trying to be original).  Things that I want to use that I haven’t gotten to are:  A little bit more Hindu stuff. Hindu Mythos is full and rich and confusing, they have been doing the supernatural soap opera thing way before any of us got started with it on TV.  I haven’t gotten to do as much Norse stuff (note this was before changes).  I haven’t gotten to do as much Greek stuff as I wanted to do which is why I added the hekitean (msp?) hags in Welcome to the Jungle.  Warhammer fans will recognize some of the names I dropped in Dead Beat

That's one that I remember, but there are a few more. I have put in italics the relevant bit. :)

1133
DF Spoilers / Re: Mab's Limits
« on: October 03, 2019, 08:21:32 AM »
The short answer, g33k, is no. No one power ranking list tied up with a bow.

There are however several WOJ's that deal with power rankings. The substance gets a bit confused, as the way Jim seems to view Power is a combination of the term that is used in physics (the rate of heat transferrence or "doing work") and the term in social and political theory (authority and leverage), and skill level seems to fit in as well. Jim has said that Molly in someways is much more powerful than Dresden as a wizard (including before Cold Days) due to her exceptional talent for veils, psychomancy and illusions (both physical and mental). What I think he is really talking about here is how useful a wizard is in certain circumstances, or how dangerous a wizard is to both mortals and the magical community. Wizards normally are not too worried by veils and physical illusions as the Sight (and various tools like the grey ointment) allow them to pierce those constructs. However, Psychomancy gives Molly a real edge over most Wizards as their training is quite limited. But all her skills make her in some ways much more dangerous and influential on a larger scale than Dresden can be to the mortal world. But we often (like Dresden) think about it in terms of who would win this slugfest, so that shapes our views.

In the series however it has been noted by many readers that there are power creeps, retcons and inconsistencies over time. I think there are several threads on these boards alone, not to mention on other platforms such as reddit.

This makes ranking individuals in the Dresden Files a tricky prospect at best, as there is insufficient information for many beings and inconsistent examples (some which are believed to be intentional). 

Jim has also talked about what makes the Merlin (Arthur Langtry) the most powerful Wizard in the world. Right off the bat is his control of the White Council, one of the most powerful and influential organisations in the magical (and probably mortal) world - both as the man who manages their significant financial interests (Jim has said he could ruin countrie's economies with the wealth that the White Council has available to it), and the chief administrator he can mobilise great movement in the entire world. Even if he had no magic at all, that would make him tremendously powerful. Remember he commands the Blackstaff, the Wardens (and potentially has some oversight over THE Warden), several thousand Wizards,  and to some degree the Gatekeeper (although he seems very respectful of Rashid's boundaries), and probably any other positions we don't know of yet. But he also is incredibly strong magically speaking too (his natural gifts for Wards and mental communication aside, he probably has more knowledge of deep magic and other secrets that perhaps only he is privy to like a President or some such). He would also likely be an extremely accomplished Wizard in most areas of magic due to his advanced age and position - the Wizards wouldn't have elected just anybody to the role. Not to mention, he is know to be a strong and highly capable politician. It is no accident he leads the White Council - his ambition and force of will would have got him there. Which doesn't make him deadlier than Rashid, or more likely to win a magic brawl than Ebenezar. But the sum of his power (in terms of both physical, personal, political and social) is far greater than theirs. Which is why he is respected. This is what Jim is getting at.

What does this mean in terms of Gods, Archangels and Faeries Queens etc? That we probably shouldn't look at it in terms of "who could win that arm wrestle". But as the famous WOJ about who could take Mab discusses - there are several beings that have the necessary horsepower tp do it. So Jim brings it back to physical terminology. But then he reminds us at the end, that Mab is more than her muscles - her office, her lands, her armies all contribute to the sum of her power. Which make her far more formidable than most, even those that might out-muscle her. Only a few really completely over-match her, all things considered.

To give a really great Q&A answer from one of Jim's AMA's
Quote
6)Do you prefer to sit down and crunch the numbers on feats of strength and power output for your supernatural creatures, or do you prefer to just look at the scale of the effect and figure out what seems right for the story and tier of entity?
6. Both. :)

2012 Reddit AMA:
Quote
sapph42: You’ve talked about beings who were on similar (or greater) power levels as Mab – Titania (obviously), Drakul, and Ferrovax to name a few. However, I believe that list was generated before Changes. Where does Odin fall on that list? Hypothetically (assuming they exist), where would entities such as Zeus or Quetzalcoatl fall?
Jim: 4) Your question presupposes a linear hierarchy–which isn’t surprising, since the series has come from Harry’s viewpoint, and Harry is a straight-lines kind of thinker. Power is a much more nebulous thing than that, and something that is problematic to quantify. I think a reasonably simple argument could be made that Molly is a /much/ more powerful wizard than Dresden, for example. And in many situations, she probably is. Dresden tends to think in terms of “who would win this slugfest” when he’s dealing with the supernatural world because, well, of all the slugfests.
Odin isn’t gonna slugfest with you. He /could/. But that isn’t the Allfather’s style. Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you’re doing right now a week and a half ago. For guys like him, fights are what happen when you /fail/ to win with /real/ power–knowledge and forethought.
Of course, sometimes everyone’s knowledge and forethought cancels each other’s actions out, and then it’s time to get all Monday Night Nitro. No one in the Dresden Files universe is really sure how that would shake out. But everyone on that level knows that they might be about to find out

I am not going to find all the threads that relate to this for you, they are out there if you want to do your own research. But it is generally accepted that in the early series Jim had not established all the rules and structures fully yet, hence later inconsistencies in the books. :)


1134
DF Spoilers / 1884-85 The time that Eb took up the Blackstaff
« on: October 03, 2019, 07:46:54 AM »
https://youtu.be/4Gmu76ritoQ?t=2959
Quote

    Eb took up the Blackstaff in 1884-1885 somewhere in there.  The Blackstaff chooses his successor.

So to my thinking - the most significant event of that time was the Berlin Conference and the Scramble of Africa. This allowed a channel for old European rivalries and helped set the stage for WWI.

So Eb takes up the Blackstaff, right as Kemmler is helping set up the first World War. What was Eb really up to and what caused him to take up the position?

1135
DF Spoilers / Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« on: October 03, 2019, 07:40:55 AM »
Just found an old WOJ that says that Lord Raith is several thousand years old, and has 2 thousand year of paranoia built up.

I would say that even if he isn't the oldest or progenitor, he is probably pretty close.

Quote
How old is Lord Raith?
He’s a couple thousand years old.  He’s got 2 thousand years of paranoia kinda built up.  Plus he’s been absolutely bonkers the past 30 years or so.  He’s hardly functional as a vampire, he’s getting to where he’s not evne functional as a figure head for much longer.  That’s going to be a problem for lara to deal with.
Will we find out about Lord Raith’s library?
There’s kind of a long game going on in the Dresden Files, and Lord Raith has been involved in it in the last couple of cycle’s it’s gone on.  He’s been trying to educate himself about it, and he meant to be a player in it this time it came around, but getting involved with Margret kind of screwed him over.
Lara’s got his library now and knows everything he knows, which explains a lot of her actions.
https://youtu.be/4Gmu76ritoQ?t=2510

1136
DF Spoilers / Re: Mab's Limits
« on: October 02, 2019, 06:53:18 AM »
That quote is now outdated. Jim has actually retconned that information.

Since Summer Knight things have changed significantly in the Power rankings :)

1137
DF Spoilers / Re: Which god do you want to see in Dresden Files?
« on: October 02, 2019, 06:50:07 AM »
Pretty much all of them tbh. Definitely the Greco-Roman pantheon, more Norse, more Egyptian and even South American and North American. Indian, Chinese, Celtic, Australian Aborigine all would be good. Also ancient Sumerian and Mesopotamian.

You have to have Zeus and Poseiden (now we have Hades) and Cronus. You have to have Thor. Horus and Set, Ra and Apep/Apophis, Osiris and Isis.

Also Bad Alias - Hinduism used to be out. But no longer, more recent interviews have Jim saying he would like to do Hindu gods and goddesses. I think he has gotten more confident and learned some more stuff about Hindu culture, so perhaps he is feeling like he can now he is older and wiser. 

1138
DF Spoilers / Re: He Who Walks Before
« on: October 02, 2019, 06:44:18 AM »
Kindler - I considered that, but then that would also defeat the significance of what Bob knows. Not to mention when he discussed how Immortals could be killed, he said it didn't matter if Harry chopped up the Winter Lady and burned her ashes unless it was on Halloween because she would reform otherwise. When Harry questions how he was able to kill Aurora, it is explained that it was because it was in a specific killing ground for immortals (Chicago-over-Chicago), created by the Queens. And Harry killed her without killing the mantle. In fact, I think Mantles can't be killed per se, but transferred or changed. Which is what happened to Maeve and Aurora. But mantles don't apply to Outsiders I think anyway. As mantles seem to be shaped by mortal imagination.

I think HWWBf is able to come in, just not all of him. But it doesn't really matter, he has the same Outsider limits as He Who Walks Behind. As for the summoner, probably another Black Council flunky.

Griff - see above. Nowhere has it been said mantles can be destroyed. In fact, the Mothers specifically tell Harry that cannot be done - energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can be hoarded (like Dragons do) or rendered valueless or sold (both of which are change). I believe that passage is in Summer Knight when Harry is trying to find out from them what could have happened to the mantle of the Summer Knight.

1139
DF Spoilers / Re: What if Dresden is actually aiding his enemies?...
« on: September 29, 2019, 05:55:16 AM »
Avernite - just because Harry fights for good doesn't mean that he doesn't aid his enemies goals too, not everyone good is allied and nor is every evil villain or group. The point is that it is complicated. Lara constantly aids Harry as he removes her enemies often for her, she wouldn't be running the White Court without him. What he did was a well intentioned act, perhaps even a morally (in the divine sense) good act, when he fought Lord Raith. But the outcome is that Lara rules the White Court. And as we know about magic (from like 10 WOJs) good is more about result and intention, at least in the Dresden Files. He has also willingly aided Mab, Nicodemus, Marcone, even the Red King (for about 15 minutes when he was killing Ariana for him). Harry doesn't like to think he is a politician, but he makes compromises to suit him and what he believes is the Greater Good all the time. Whilst he might be doing good overall, doesn't mean he isn't aiding the various bad guys sometimes. It is no coincidence that his ID is morally ambiguous at best.

Uriel's involvement is more significant that a pep talk or a pat on the back. He fights for souls. Consider he pretty rarely shows up to anyone at all, and is supposed to be the most quiet archangel. Yet he is showing up and communicating more and more with Dresden. I would say that isn't coincidence either. I think he is doing his level best to fight for Dresden to be on the side of the angels, pardon the pun. I think Dresden's significance in the grand scheme of things is not to be underrated, which is why so many higher level beings show interest in him. As Vadderung said, he is a fulcrum. I think Uriel's constant encouragement etc is one way he can constantly keep Dresden from falling into darkness. Consider without Uriel's pep talks that Dresden might have continued to doubt himself, gone down worse paths, made worse decisions. Harry constantly is aware of how a few words from the greater, older beings can have enormous impact on him (especially if they are "evil") but it isn't like being "good" would mean you are a slouch. Uriel is just as impactful with his words, if not more so. He told Dresden that Maggie was actually his daughter. Consider the repercussions of that, and what might have changed had he not.

Bad Alias - I get your meaning and I agree. Sometimes he means to, sometimes not, sometimes it doesn't matter as the result will stay the same. And you are absolutely right, I think you manipulate Harry at your peril. He is too unpredictable and too erratic for most villains, even the logical ones. Sometimes though I think his most dangerous foes are the ones who understand him too well, understand his drive and his sense of righteousness and his failings and his strengths. People like Marcone and Kincaid, and Lash. Probably others too that I am forgetting. Elaine makes the list because of her behaviour in Summer Knight. Molly would too, had she stayed a wizard. The know his strengths and weaknesses, and are learn from their own. Harry fails the most when he can't see past his own blindspots.

1140
DF Spoilers / Re: Mab's Limits
« on: September 26, 2019, 12:06:17 PM »
Fair enough Dspringer, I will take that as feedback. :) I need to work at convincing people and I did write a lot of text. I don't want to distort too much from the OP at this stage so I will leave it alone for now.

We both agree that Mab and Archangels are not the same level, but to correct you statement that they are in the same business but not the same level, see the below quote from Summer Knight. I put it in my last post but I admit it probably got hidden in all that text.

Quote
"Of course" Lea said. "They each exist in opposition. Each wields vast power, wizard - power to rival the archangels and lesser gods.
(SK, Ch 23, p172)
I have bolded the relevant bit. Lea is telling Harry about Mab and Titania after he has just looked at the with the Sight. As I said, this got retconned later in the series. Some still believe it is the case the Mab and Uriel are at the same level, but considering how unrestricted Mab is compared to the Mothers and/or the Archangels (in terms of her ability to influence and act in the mortal plane, her ability to show up regularly, and several WOJs) it is pretty obvious that Jim restructured his power rankings in the series.

I will leave you with this WOJ though:
 
Info about really powerful beings
The Mothers are extremely powerful beings, I mean, they’re really really well, you can tell because they hardly ever show up on the real world. In the Dresden Files universe if you don’t show up on the real world, it’s because you’re too big to walk around there. For instance,  I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn’t bear his weight, it’s not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it’s that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you’re in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn’t mind it, he thinks it’s awesome. But anyway, you can always tell. If there’s folks who don’t show up in the real world, it’s because they’re super big. So, like, an angel shows up, and it’s just sort of a whispered presence that one person is aware of, that’s because he’s just too big to show up here, it’s a giant sandbox, and he’s got to be very very careful to not squash the sandbox. So, he just shows up for that one bit.
Kiama Australia Q&A

He is referring to when Uriel whispers to Dresden at the end of Ghost Story. He often uses the term angel and archangel interchangeably for Uriel, because Uriel is of course both. Species and rank. I have bolded the relevant bits so that you can see that Jim is comparing the two. He isn't saying they both add up to exactly 8 miles high, but they are both mountains. That puts them well beyond almost everything else, except the Walkers and the Old Ones. There is WOJ on that too.


One other thing that is relevant to the OP - in Welcome to the Jungle (the DF graphic novel), Harry encounters Hecatean Hags. These have skin like tank armor, razor sharp claws, glamours, more and stronger magic than Dresden does at the time, and are extremely long lived (having survived since ancient Greece). They were Hecate's greatest fans, her cult, and take a hell of a lot to kill. They are attempting an ascension rite. Bob tells Harry that this was how Hecate came to be in the first place. I think that is highly significant. She was a powerful witch (either mortal or monster like the Hags) and then completed her rite of ascension to become a god.

If Hecate is all the Queens of Faerie, and the Fae only came into being relatively recently, and Hecate herself only ascended several thousand years ago, and the Angels and Archangels existed before Time was a thing (WOJ plus multiple book references to witnessing the beginning of Creation) - then is how could Hecate be so powerful? Could she really match beings that existed before the parts she is made of existed? Even her magic?

G33k - I agree. TWG (Almighty) is just plain beyond anything we have encountered. That is pretty clear - and I am not biased I don't believe in God. Don't mind if others do either though. But I think it is clear that is what Jim has set. TWG is literally everywhere and sees everything, and in particular knows everything (and in the series Power and Knowledge seem to go hand in hand). No other beings have we seen have that much power.

Just to correct you - it is NOT just that the angels allege their origins as being before time, there is WOJ to support this.

@longshotauthor In the Dresden Files, are the fallen 4.6 billion years old or approx 4000? Big bang vs God making everything really.
@GiftedMonster How do you know that before the Big Bang, God didn’t say “Let there be light.” :) It’s fantasy fiction, Ashely, not theology 
@GiftedMonster Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipsters

We don't really know their involvement with the act of Creation itself, we just know they were there "when" it happened (which by the way is an oxymoron, you can't have a when before Time). Yeah, no other beings apart from them have made that claim or connection. So I would say it is pretty relevant.

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