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Messages - Yuillegan

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1096
DF Spoilers / Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« on: December 12, 2019, 05:03:02 AM »
We see with Peabody and Lucio that the brain manipulation actually needs maintenance. The mind will fight back, the locks won't hold forever.

Also I do not think that Justin, even with Bob's guidance, was as skilled as Peabody. If he just went for loyalty and violence then the loyalty bit would have become quite meaningless by now even if it held which I think is unlikely.

That's interesting, as Bob actually says the opposite when discussing it with Harry in Blood Rites:
Quote
"A fine thrall is so controlled the might not even know that they're a thrall at at all, and it lasts long term"
"Like what DuMorne did to Elaine"
"Uh, I guess so, yeah. Like that. That kind of thing takes a subtle hand, though. Enthralling someone also requires a lot of time and a certain amount of empathy, ..."
Blood Rites, chapter 27, p161.

So I bolded the relevant bid, and underlined the hint (imho). So it seems according to Bob's magical theory, Elaine could have become enthralled and still be one, and may not even know that she is. What Peabody did smacks of a different flavor, something more overt and nasty - not far off what the Black Court Vampires do. He did something cheaper and nastier, a potion rather than a series of spells (which is how Elaine describes enthrallment in Summer Knight), which allowed him to achieve a similar outcome without the requirements of empathy etc. Even though it was small amounts and over a long period of time - he wasn't actually trying to enthrall the senior council. He was merely trying to nudge their decisions. As for Luccio, if memory serves me the reason he actually forcefully controlled her was that she might have stumbled on to him and forced his hand AND that she was now in a younger body (which overcame the limits of her age, whereas an older brain would probably have just broken). Luccio's reaction was FAR more similar to Nelson (Molly's boyfriend in Proven Guilty) and Molly's friend Rosy.

And I can't remember where I read it, but I am sure that Justin was a skilled psychomancer or mind mage. I think it was in the Paranet Papers. Something about Simon's apprentice (referring to Justin). In any case, I would be willing to bet that Justin ticked enough boxes in order to create a fine thrall (he genuinely did seem to empathize with Harry at least on one occasion) so he quite likely did care about them, he had the knowledge and skill (at least to some extent, especially with Bob's help), and whilst we know very little of his magical style I would say it was a good mix of Harry and Elaine (if only for the fact that he taught them quite a bit, and if he was a mind mage that does suggest more subtle magical depth). 

Infection and possession are really overlapping concepts. You could say that Harry was infected by Lasciel's shadow. Or possessed. To be possessed by Nemesis the outsider power has to get in and mingle with your own spirit. Using the power of the dagger probably triggers that.

The dagger is a safer carrier than a person and Mab keeps it on her person to guard it.

Hmmm I get what you are saying here. I think though generally when people refer to possession (in the magical sense) you can be fully or partially. Either the entity possessing the victim is in the driver's seat fully, or there is a struggle for control. Whereas when people talk about infection (at least in the medical sense) you either are infected or you are not. There is not such thing as a partial infection, more about the degree. And you have to remember, whilst Nemesis may be old, lots of those who see the change currently in the supernatural world see it as new and dangerous. Which Nemesis at least as a partial role in. It seems to be of a different nature to the regular sort of dark magic/evil. At least that is how it is written.

I am not sure then that Harry was "infected" by Lash. What Harry experience is pretty much a straight-up demonic possession. In terms of literary prose, you could say infected, but the reality is that possession works best. He wasn't always in control of himself, he was constantly influenced (even subconsciously), saw things that weren't "real", gained unnatural powers etc. Nemesis might also do those things too of course. One similarity is the ability to spread to multiple targets. We don't know the limits of this for Fallen or Nemesis, but Lasciel was simultaneously affecting Harry via Lash and Hannah Ascher (through the Coin).

Mab did keep the Athame on her person for a book or two - but no mention of it is made after that. Perhaps she contained or eliminated the threat. It was interesting that she did that considering she would have known what it was, and what it had carried. I do agree, using the power of the dagger could well be the trigger. Seems like a good fit. Although in fairness only the Choice to even touch the Coin is enough. So there is that.

But your point doesn't really answer my question which was that if Black Magic does taint the user or whatever, why then are so many more people not infected by Nemesis - including Harry? The answer to my mind is that Nemesis is not so easy to summon or infect someone with. It has to be summoned (likely by Mortals), and then probably put into a vessel (potentially a person, but at the least an object that likely is magical in nature). And perhaps once it spreads to a Host, then it can spread itself to another Host (it is implied to be able to do this), except we have no idea how it does that or the length of time required etc.

   I think we have to be careful when trying to equate the Coins to Nemesis infection.   Harry is unique because yes, Sanya rejected the coin, but that has happened before, but before Harry, no one had ever been able to reject the Shadow of one of the Fallen once it had taken up residence in the brain of the potential host, that is what sets him apart, Uriel even said that and why Michael had such a hard time believing that Harry had thrown off the Shadow.  Point is Cat Sith failed.

Didn't Harry speculate to Michael that likely the Church wouldn't know if no one had ever rejected a Shadow? Especially as they are so compromised, and that Nicodemus makes a point of destroying records about him and the Fallen every few hundred years? I don't remember Uriel saying that Harry was the only person to ever reject a Coin...do you mind finding where he said that?

As for Cat Sith rejecting Nemesis...apples and oranges. Harry is a Mortal with the full-range of Free Will. Cat Sith is not. Not to mention, Harry already seems to be exceptionally strong at resisting and self-aware enough to achieve what most Mortals might not. Not to mention we have no idea how the possession of Nemesis differs to that of a Shadow of the Fallen. Nemesis could well be FAR stronger. Or not. Who knows. Not to mention that Maeve and Aurora couldn't beat Nemesis, even though they are Faerie Queens (even if they are the least of them, still Immortals). Even Lea (who's only superior in the Winter Court is Mab herself, excluding the Mothers of course) failed to beat Nemesis. It is even implied that Mab wouldn't have been able to do so. Part of rejecting such a thing might include being Mortal. We have no idea how Mab freed Lea of it (assuming she did...) but Lea stated that even thinking about what had happened to her would make her vulnerable again to it. So perhaps once touched you are never truly free. Like Harry's mark on his Soul left by He Who Walks Behind.

Harry didn't reject Lash, she chose to die to protect him and she was burned out of his brain.

Edit
That sounds ugly.  Maybe better this.  Harry resists Lash's plea's, even at the end when she acts to her nature, and tries to get Harry to summon the coin.  But she commits an act of love to preserve both him and their child,  and makes a choice to be free.  So rather than cast her out, he learned to  care about her.

A nice sentiment Morris, and of course Lash and Lasciel are different beings especially by that book. Immortals cannot change as easily as mortals and doing so effectively robs them of their identity. As Lash had tried to change Harry via his subconscious, it changed her right back to the point where she became a being able to make that sacrifice out of love, to protect Harry and free him from the psychic assault - which had the (not necessarily unintended) consequence of a child and Jim has also hinted that Harry's suicide in Changes was influenced by that decision (they don't call her the Webweaver and Temptress for nothing). 

But I am not so sure they are mutually exclusive things. He had certainly been resisting her power up until that point. Perhaps ridding oneself of the Shadow requires such a thing. The only other method that is known to work in the canon is giving up your powers. And one wonders if things like sacrifice, love, faith etc are the keys to rejecting a possession. I always found it interesting Harry never went to get an Exorcism. Perhaps that would have killed his powers too, perhaps Harry secretly didn't want to.


1097
DF Spoilers / Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« on: December 11, 2019, 12:22:59 AM »
I am not a believer in coincidences,  this adds up too well to be just that...  That doesn't mean that Elaine was a willing carrier, but it doesn't mean that she wasn't used as one, or had any idea she was being used.  She was successfully enthralled by Justin, now did that just wear off once he was dead?  What HWB said to Harry in his flash back in Ghost Story says there is a lot more to see here, a plan.   However it all blew up because Harry, being a starborn, and face it, being Harry, didn't play, even at sixteen.

Not saying your theory is wrong, Mira. Just saying that it is in fact, a theory. Not a fact. An important distinction. I quite like the theory as it happens. But I am just being clear that one thing is not the other. Does that make sense?

I think in the earlier books I would have said if Justin had died, and sunlight had risen, then the enthrallment would have stopped. However if Justin did not fully die, or he anchored it to something like a person (like Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith...and remember she and Justin were allies once) then probably the enthrallment is still active. Assuming she actually was, in fact, enthralled. We only have Elaine's word for it. Harry just thought she willingly joined Justin. Who knows maybe she did, maybe she was infected. We shall see.

And you are assuming here that He Who Walks Behind's plan did actually backfire. As Lea actually points out in that scene, it takes a very careful approach to make a Wizard think using destruction and violence is okay. Perhaps he just allowed Harry to destroy him. And even if he didn't, the plan was still at the very least partially successful. One thing that is clear is he would have only killed Harry if Harry wasn't useful. A common theme of the books, and especially the monsters, is that if you don't survive their lessons (think Mother Winter to Harry in Cold Days) you deserve to die.

123Chikadee - Fair enough as a theory. And your WAG is interesting. Although wouldn't that mean the Gatekeeper and Winter etc need to be more involved against Black Magic? It seems they are not as concerned with Demon black magic and the Fallen.  And just to put it out there - all the supernatural types have some degree of Free Will. Otherwise they would be automatons. WOJ is that even angels had enough Free Will to Fall. And we have seen Uriel exercise his own Will, to a point.

The thing is - Mab knows how the infection happens. And we know it was the Athame. If it were so easy to infect a victim then why go to all that trouble with the Athame? And if people were such easy carriers via merely using Black Magic (as Harry has done btw) then wouldn't way more people be exposed - including Harry?

Arjan - I think the Gatekeeper, amongst others, have been watching Harry since he first was on the radar for such things. Those who really know about what's going on seem to take a keen interest in Harry. And pretty much all of them knew Harry's mother. No one seems as interested in Thomas either. I think the Gatekeeper even as early as Summer Knight may have suspected Harry of being infected. But yes that scene in Turn Coat on the dock (if that is what you are referring to) is a good example.

1098
DF Spoilers / Re: Any news on Peace Talks
« on: December 11, 2019, 12:00:41 AM »
This was explained in one of the books.  The power of the knights (or the swords if you like) is not fixed.   Their purpose is to balance the scales so that human skill, will and morality will decide the battle, not supernatural power.  So if the knight needs to fight two vampires, you get power X.   If the knight needs to battle a frigging dragon, he gets power 5X. 

I suspect there is a range of possible power.  A knight can probably easily kill any normal vampire 1-1, so there seems to be a minimum power level.   And the top end a knight can channel also appears to be limited.   Murphy was apparently a VERY powerful knight in Changes, while Sanya appears to be of more typical Knight power.  And even Murphy and Sanya together were insufficient to beat all the vampires in that last battle.  Not even close.

It was explained somewhat in the books, in a rather vague way. Never so clearly as the Swords balance the fight. If anything, the closest explanation is it gives the Knight a chance of victory, which is incredible enough anyway but not the same as matching the foe.

If it really does in fact make the knights power up to a certain level, based on the enemy in front of them, then why were three Knights needed to take on Ursiel? As I say I think it gives them a chance, which is good, but if you want to maximise your chances you have as much help as you can get.
 
I also am not so taken with the idea that some Knights are greater in power than others. True, some Knights are more talented and skilled warriors than others - Shiro was clearly the most dangerous warrior early on. But the true purpose of the Knights is not as mere swordsmen, but as saviours and guardians. They are meant to help. I do think the character of Sanya is constantly weirdly nerfed by Jim - he is often clumsy, hardly a tornado of warrior power, and rarely seems to go toe-to-toe with any villain on his own. Is this because he is agnostic? I can't imagine so as Shiro ascribed to multiple belief systems and Butters is Jewish! I think it is more down to poor character development and being overshadowed in pivotal scenes by other characters. Also, I think if Murphy and Sanya were meant to beat all those Vampires they would have. I think that is precisely how their game works.


1099
DF Spoilers / Re: NemVECTOR
« on: December 10, 2019, 11:48:16 PM »
I believe the book you are referring to is Dead Beat. Up until that point - the war hadn't escalated overmuch. But I think Luccio is talking about it when the White Council is pursued into the Nevernever after a trap in Sicily. And I think 80% of the Wardens are killed. Interestingly, this is the book in which Cowl first introduces himself (only having a brief cameo possibly in Grave Peril, the book the war starts in and where we first see people potentially infected, also Mavra and others show up). And we first learn about Kemmler in Dead Beat. So all in all, a potent book with lots of hints.

I think your theory works if any Mortal practitioner can in fact summon Outsiders. We still have no idea how this is done. The closest example we have is the ritual in Blood Rites. Which is a huge hint to how to summon them, likely mortal blood is required. Madge and the other wives summon HWWBh using the rituals gained from Lord Raith's extensive occult library, is the only way we have seen so far.

I also challenge that it cannot be so easy to summon Nemesis, otherwise wouldn't there be an epidemic? Unless there is a whole horde of sleeper agent Nemfected and Nemvectors just being put into position waiting to strike...

No, I think it is harder than that. Otherwise why infect the Athame? The only way we have seen so far as the conduit for infection by Nemesis. If it were so easy to infect others, the whole song and dance with the Athame becomes unnecessary.

My theory is that if Elaine did infect Aurora, then likely she gave Aurora a tainted gift. She needed something to bargain for protection/hospitality from the Summer Court and she couldn't have done it with nothing unless she wanted to be in considerable debt/obligation (which only Harry is stupid enough to do). I think at least part of the deal was some artifact of Justin's. But who knows.

The biggest hints we have so far about how an individual becomes infected are and what we know about it:
1) Per WOJ - the Athame was more than a vector for madness, it more accurately was a vector for power.
2) Those who have become infected were trying to upset the status quo (by and large). Leah wished to challenge Mab, Aurora wished to challenge the Courts and break the cycle, Maeve wished to challenge Mab etc. They all needed more power, or perhaps more accurately needed more freedom, in which to do so.
3) I know everyone doesn't believe the mortals were infected, but if they were they fit the mould. Victor Sells wanted more power and wealth, Agent Denton wished to punish those he thought the law protected too well, Kravos wished to rise above his mediocrity and challenge the White Council (or at least gain their respect).
4) Being too close to Mortals changes the Fae. They resist it but it is dangerous for them. It might be dangerous for almost all supernatural types, as it changes how they interact with the world. I think this also is a hint for how a Faerie might become susceptible to Nemesis as well. They are meant to be different to Mortals and changing their nature could compromise their purpose.
5) Nemesis cannot affect Archangels (and likely Angels) per WOJ. So we at least can trust that it has some limits.
6) It can Hear those who use any of its Names, like a deity. It also once discovered can take active control of its Host(s) and can potentially spread to others (from Harry and Lily's conversation - why she was so cagey in the beginning because she didn't know if he was infested). Like many secret agents, when discovered it must convert the discoverer into an asset or kill them.
7) It also seems to have spread to the White Court causing them to change their diets, to the Red Court causing them to to become hostile openly and causing inner turmoil within, to the Fomor - active and aggressive after so long. Unless of course Maeve lied and these were merely moves in a much greater plan...
8 ) Nemesis (the Adversary) has multiple Names. I speculate that this is related to the Mother's true name. Perhaps it is because it is their adversary. But also I think giving it a name defines it, makes it more real. Like the Oblivion war, I think even Outsiders need a name/idea to latch onto to take shape.
9) It mostly takes decades of experience to recognize it without using the Sight (which has obvious detrimental effects). Rashid compared the techniques to art more than skill. So we know it is lies truly deep within a host, dormant or otherwise. Perhaps it attaches to their Soul, or at least a part of it.






1100
DF Spoilers / Re: Any news on Peace Talks
« on: December 10, 2019, 05:07:23 AM »
The swords' power has always been variable according to the circumstances, though. As I said, they have cut metal other than opposing blades in ways a physical blade obviously can't on a couple other occasions, and their mystical power varies in some combination of response to both the bearer and the current adversary. Fidelacchius gives Harry a fighting chance wrestling with Nicodemus, but it lights up like a freaking meteor for Karrin against Deirdre.

And I think Fidelacchius starting to act like a lightsaber all the time when it was thrown to Butters may have just possibly been influenced by the fact that the one throwing it had the very probable spear of destiny - which is legendarily supposed to confer victory on the side that carries it - stuffed up his sleeve at the moment.

This^^

The swords, like Mouse, like pretty much any really significant power - are incredible and unstoppable in the right circumstances. Mouse powered up by the Carpenter house is much stronger than when powered up by Dresden's poor threshold ("from the Thing to the Hulk" WOJ). The Archangels and the Mothers and the Walkers are incredibly powerful, but only in very specific situations. Choice seems to unlock the power, but so does destiny (which one could argue is the result of a line of choices - no wonder you can't fight fate). Harry was never a Knight of the Cross, and so could never wield a blade like one. Although I do admit, Jim does seem to vary the powers of the Swords a lot. Early Michael was way less powerful than later Michael, despite the damaged leg. Karen makes them all look pitiful, and despite Shiro supposedly being a Sword-Saint we never saw him unleash the way Karen did. Sanya is as true KotC but has he ever been as strong as the others? A good argument might be that Jim needed to super-charge them for the writing later in the series as events demanded. Also perhaps one could argue as the stakes get higher, so does the power of the swords increase (we are getting close to the end of the world).

But mostly it seems situational, and not always obvious. Sanya does more than merely kill armies of baddies - he provides Hope when all hope is lost. He carried the burden of being the sole KotC when none were available. And he did not fail or falter or shirk his duties. That isn't nothing. In some ways, it is greater than any one act of combat we have seen so far. Like in Lord of the Rings, it is the little things that make the difference.

The fact that Harry carried the Spear of Destiny (or Longinus) is definitely worth remembering. The power to warp reality and probability so that all conflicts go your way? Greater than any of those swords or any spell that we have seen. Perhaps it supercharged Butter's sword, perhaps not (which is likely considering it functionally worked the same in the short story). But the fact that Harry carried it with him in hopeless odds, and won, should not be overlooked.

1101
DF Spoilers / Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« on: December 10, 2019, 04:42:32 AM »
We presume that Nemfection is an Outsider thing.  The WAG is based on the theory that mortals can indeed be vectors of Nemfection.

Well that's a pretty safe bet. Yes, no one has outright said "This is the Outsider, Nemesis etc". But they hardly need to.

Rashid (who is the Gatekeeper to the Outside), and the Mothers (one of which has a primary purpose as being the power source for fighting Outsiders) both refer to it as the Adversary. They, like Titania, do not refer to it openly by that name (although they do hint that Nemesis is merely ONE of its names). This is perhaps because it is a danger to them as it (like Hades and other beings) can Hear when one of it's Names are used. Making them (though not necessarily the Mothers) targets.

It also shows up by name for the first time in a book that reveals a lot about the fight against the Outsiders, and is primarily about fighting the Outsiders. It appears to both be on Earth (in its hosts - whether controlled or merely carriers, assuming that is possible) AND it is Outside the Outer Gates, as Rashid and the Gates are required to check for it's presence. Harry deduces that it is a sapper, whilst He Who Walks Before (also called Gatebreaker) is a leader designed to smash through enemy lines and lead missions. Titania - Mab's opposite and twin - also knew exactly what it was, I suspect because they both share a certain amount of information from their mantles (and possibly because of their education from the Mothers etc). This information wouldn't be shared unless it was relevant to all Fae, and it is, because the Fae's true purpose is to protect Reality from the Outsiders, and to protect Humanity from itself.

Now there is the smallest amount of room for it to be some Outsider-aligned supernatural. But so far, almost no other Powers work with them willingly. They either seem to get corrupted or hate them equally. As we don't know what Outsiders actually are, this makes it hard to tell who might work with them and what their race/society/team are comprised of (if such terms makes sense in that context). Only those who hate the status quo seem to work with them, and it would appear all in the pursuit of either more power or general chaos. Outsiders seem to be fundamentally different in nature to beings of Reality, and are very scary because of that. They also seem to work together, which is pretty much unheard of for even the most unified groups this side of the Gates.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
But also, and equally:  there is no evidence at all that Mortal's can be infected by Nemesis.
Again:  equally correct. *Not quite*

Except for Lily saying so - the only piece of text (canon or WOJ) that actually names individuals that are Mortal. Just remember that this has actually not yet been disproven. Again, everyone has called Lily unreliable etc - but as far as the canon of the books is concerned, what Lily told Harry is still true. Butcher may show us this was a misdirection or red herring but so far he has not. Unless someone can find some WOJ or actual evidence from the books that outright disproves it, then we cannot summarily rule it out.

The Mothers hinted at Aurora, Mab indicated Maeve and flatly told Harry about Leah, Leah told Harry about herself, Maeve accused Mab (but was infected herself), Cat Sith no one knew about until Harry worked it out. WOJ says Archangels by virtue of being Absolute, cannot be infected. It is unclear whether regular Angels can, however. And Harry implies that most of those he assumed were Black Council might actually be infected themselves and are not a formal organization at all by the sum of hosts of a magical sentient virus - which implicates Rosanna and Tessa, Cowl and Kumori, etc.

I literally think it's a coin toss either way.  I see Doylist advantages AND disadvantages to Jim Butcher with either decision; I see in-canon arguments to be made that this or that is evidence one way or the other.

Anything built upon either supposition (mortals' immunity, or vulnerability) is the WAGiest of WAGs, being (imho) grounded on no more than the toss of a coin.

I am, BTW, providing coins (if anyone wants to toss 'em and WAG away!)...

What?  No, no, no hint of antiquity, silver or blackening... not at all...
 

I get that, there are excellent reasons to go either way in the story. Time will tell how Jim chose to go, but at this stage nothing is ruled out. I'd love a coin - for purely academic reasons...

  There is however in the the person of Elaine and possibly Justin, that if the conditions are
right mortals can be carriers not unlike the knife was, of the infection.

I'm not sure what you are saying here...are you saying that there is evidence for infection, as there is evidence of Justin and/or Elaine being carriers? If so, I would love to hear it. It makes for an excellent theory but afaik there is no evidence that people can merely be carriers. They only thing we know of that was a carrier was the Athame (Morgana's). To answer your later response too - quite right, just because a mortal cannot be infected doesn't mean they cannot be a carrier. HOWEVER - there is no evidence they can be carriers, none in the text and none in WOJ. There is also no evidence that Mortals cannot be infected, text or otherwise. So let's all be clear when we start using absolutes in arguments, and support with appropriate evidence. Far too many theories have started from WAGs being taken as gospel, rather than using the evidence we do have. And yes, it is very significant that Justin has a strong connection to Outsiders. Especially considering that Harry and Elaine were both potential Starborn. And that Elaine ran to the Summer Court right before Aurora gets infected. But none of it is evidence for someone being a carrier of Nemesis.

Also g33k, you are quite probably right in that if Justin wasn't a carrier (assuming a Mortal can be), then it makes it much less likely that Elaine is. And I think you have summed up my exact thoughts on the Elaine being the one who infects Aurora. But then, wouldn't that mean that Justin had been planning things that took place many years later? And what does that say then if Elaine did in fact do it? Who was/is Elaine working for? Is Justin really...dead?




1102
DF Spoilers / Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« on: December 09, 2019, 03:12:33 AM »
Well as stated above by Kindler and others, there is no evidence at all that Mortal's cannot be infected by Nemesis. That is pure speculation, as it isn't even implied in any canon or WOJ. The theory behind it has been explained, and is understandable, but is a poor premise to build off. Which isn't saying it might not be true - but the jury is WAY out.

Q1:
Yes, and I believe it has already happened. As Arjan points out and I have theorized before, Nemesis cannot spread like an epidemic otherwise it probably would have. Which means targets have to fit quite specific criteria in order to become infected. Whilst I agree that many of the "bad" villains are not necessarily infected, I expect quite a few are. Perhaps even (at least) one per book.

Q2:
Likely already infected suspects include: Cowl, Elaine, Simon, Justin, Peabody, Kumori (assuming she isn't Elaine), Cristos, Tessa, Rosanna.

Possible already infected suspects: Victor Sells, Agent Denton, Leonid Kravos. Yes, Lily might be an unreliable source but so far is the only person to have actually pointed out suspects in the entire series (apart from the Mothers). But also because of their behaviour prior the taking on power. They started out good, but twisted against their nature. And from a purely Doylist POV - it makes sense that each case is connected in this series. Nemesis is the connection.

Possibly are/were/will be: Ebenezar, Rashid, the Merlin, OG Merlin, Harry's mother, Thomas, Marcone, Hendrics, Murphy, Molly, Nicodemus, any SC (but particularly LtW and Ancient Mai eventually).

And also, there is an excellent reason backed up by evidence WHY Peabody might have chosen to not infect the SC (assuming he was infected, and that he hasn't infected any of them already). The reason is that it might not have wanted to draw attention to itself (particularly with the Gatekeeper around) and so would only infect any of them as a last resort, despite their high value as targets. Maeve and Leah both failed to infect Mab (on balance of probabilities) and therefore there are clearly limits on how easy it is to infect a target.

Why target these individuals? Well SC for their obvious leverage in the supernatural community. Thomas both perhaps for his proximity to the leadership of the White Court AND potentially Harry. Murphy because of Harry. Molly - because she is Winter Lady and close to Harry. The Denarians - because of their power in the supernatural community. Most of it is pretty obvious.

What might be less obvious is why target the lesser individuals like Sells, Denton, Kravos etc. Perhaps Nemesis has a variety of multi-level intricate goals, perhaps it has a very simple goal. Perhaps it has to do with Harry, perhaps not. But considering Nemesis is considered a sapper, I think it is all about opening fully those big ol' Outer Gates. Then the Outsider forces rush in and destroy everything. And perhaps each individual it infects has a chance to help aid that primary objective. 

1103
DF Spoilers / Re: DF's B B E G
« on: December 04, 2019, 05:31:17 AM »
By "the Ring" I assume you mean the Circle? The shadowy organization that was first mentioned in White Knight?

I do agree with SK in that there isn't necessarily one BBEG. This isn't Harry Potter, and encompasses a far larger field of adversaries.

For instance, we have several types of villains (not all of which are necessarily "Bad Guys").

We have the Merlin (who appears to be on the side of the "good guys", but is a constant impediment and sometimes adversary of Harry) so let's call these type of villains Antagonists. Murphy was in this group in the early series although has become a full-time good guy. Marcone loosley fits this group, as do the mortal authorities, Mrs Carpenter (in the early books), Morgan and several others.

Then we have Anti-Heroes. Leah, Mab, Marcone all fit in here. I base this on the fact that they just as often aid Harry as impede or antagonise him, but mostly seem to want to protect him and (to varying extents) protect others from the really bad guys. Kincaid could easily fall into this group.

Then we have the Black Hats. This is Cowl, Kemmler, Peabody, potentially (Cristos), Arianna, Ortega, Lord Raith, Justin Dumorne etc. Basically all those who may be or have been on the Black Council and/or Circle (which may or may not be the same thing) OR are plotting equally bad stuff. For example, just because you are not with Daesh/ISIS doesn't mean being a Nazi is any better; they both have horrible plans and ideas but wouldn't necessarily work together. Nicodemus and the Denarians fit here, but also are special. But I will get to that.

There are obviously the Horrors. Naaglooshii, Outsiders, Old Gods, Fallen, other Demons. All very bad - but probably not trying to necessarily end Harry or the World more than anything else. The Outsiders might, but then again, we don't really know what they want. Technically Mother Summer and Winter fit this category due to their extreme power, but they don't seem to scheme as much as affect the universe on a more fundamental level.

Finally - the Uber-villains. The Devil, maybe He Who Walks Behind, the Old Ones. All seem equally awful in power, but potentially who knows how much Harry will have to do with them. Obviously there is a connection to HWWBh, so I would say there will be another rematch or two. Jim has said the Devil will get on stage, and there is an old WOJ where he actually says the Devil is the worst "c'mon - he's the freaking Devil!". I will try and dig it up. So my money is on the Devil. Also Nemesis is in here. Not the worst, but still very scary.

Titania, Nicodemus, Tessa etc also are Very Bad. Jim has implied Nicodemus is more of a danger to the universe than Lucifer is, in some ways (defined by the fact the Lucifer still wants a universe, which Nicodemus may not). Tessa seems to be linked to the Circle too, but I don't totally buy that Nicodemus isn't. I have included Titania as she REALLY hates Harry. And I think that even if she isn't currently working against Harry, as she isn't going to get a lot of screen time until the BAT, I would say it is going to come back to bite Harry in a big way.

All this of course assumes there isn't someone or something else out there. And it is all Harry centric. Which makes sense, considering it is all from his perspective, but whether the BBEG of the books is actually the worst possible being out there is much harder to say. The other thing is, we are basing Big Bad Evil Guy on assumptions about Good and Evil in a book where that is often not so clearly defined. Just because Harry has strong opinions about the nature of such things doesn't make it so. He is a very unreliable narrator. So those that Harry may see as "Good" or "Evil" may not be objectively totally so, not to mention that there may not be an objective truth of such things in the Dresden Files AND Harry may have a different idea about all this to you or me or Jim or whoever, so Jim might feel Nicodemus is the true BBEG, but I might think it was Harry himself, and Harry might think it was Cowl and you might think it was the Devil!

So, not a very easy question to answer. But great fun to think about!

1104
DF Spoilers / Re: Proven Guilty final iteration.
« on: November 21, 2019, 08:13:21 AM »
An interesting WAG.

I am not sure whether the Gates are a "remote viewing device" per se...I suspect their real use is to do with the Greater Multiverse. My theory is, like Lovecraft's silver gate to the multiverse, the crystal material of the Gates, the Gatekeepers eye etc. is connected to the very fabric of reality. This allows certain beings to see into the various universes, and therefore alternate and parallel timelines. This allows the Gatekeeper (and perhaps Mab and particularly the Mothers) to "see" what is going on, before it is going to happen. It is not logical that all universes are in sync and are at the same point in history. Time as we know (especially in the Dresden Files) is linear to a human perspective. So realistically this knowledge allows them to interpret the most likely version of an event about to happen, in order to take actions. And I believe Vadderung has still some of this ability (although not as much as he probably used to...I think there is a reasonable argument that it is implied that he once wore the Gatekeeper eye).

Basically, less "see" other points in space in Dresden's universe and more "see" other universes that are/have happening(ed) and infer what might happen in "their" universe. Complicated I know, but spacetime and multiverses are by their very nature stupidly complex.

Now onto your other points.

Perhaps the Gates are the mechanism to close the borders - it fits as well as anything. They are on some of the borders of Faerie (but of course not on the border that is shared with Summer. But one wonders if Faerie isn't so much split into North and South for example (with let's say Winter in the North and Summer in the South) but actually the territory of Winter surrounding the centre of Faerie (which is Summer's territory). And presumably in the No Mans Land inbetween the territories is the realms of the Wyld Fae. This would make more sense if all the Borders of Faerie touch the Outside and therefore have walls etc. But then perhaps, maybe not as well. It would be nice to have a vague map. We have to assume where Dresden visited was in Winter's territory, which of course still makes it interesting that Mother Summer was there but then again those two don't really play by the regular Rules. Of course, if the Outer Wall does not surround ALL of Faerie and therefore Summer has a border with some other part of the Never-never or the mortal world, then how did Mab close all the Borders using the mechanism of the Gate? Food for thought.

1. Rashid may or may not have been remote viewing. Just as likely, if not more so, he was seeing several possible futures become one clear future and acted upon that information.
2. The why makes sense though, so fair enough.
3. See main argument above.
4. THIS. I find it very interesting that Mab kept Harry alive. Mab is Mother Winter's "daughter". She would think along similar lines - consider that scene in Cold Days about "too many bright ones [futures]". I think Harry's involvement with Mab serves to create much darker timelines, provided Harry doesn't mess up those plans ;) We also must consider that old WOJ about Titania being nervous about Harry, and Mab keeping her enemies closer. Harry's role may not be her traditional friend. All that Starborn stuff.
5. Good enough for me, although don't be so quick to discount that this book was just as much about bringing MOLLY into Arctis Tor. She was being set up as one of their agents for a long time. Maybe for their benefit, maybe for Michael's punishment for crossing Winter, maybe other reasons. Probably all of them knowing Mab.
6. Yeah pretty sound. But see above.
7. Very interesting idea. The Time obfuscation makes sense here. However, I am not so sure that this was their only motive. Whilst I truly doubt they thought they could kill Mab, perhaps they thought they could wound her. More likely though, I think they were gunning for Leah and maybe even the knife. Why? Perhaps there was some great future value and they did not wish to lose an asset so recently gained. This was one of the boldest attacks, right at the heart of Winter's power. Although as the attack in Cold Days showed, they like to hit multiple fronts to create chaos and stretch resources. So quite possibly, this was a distraction to some other terrifying attack. Or, as the books seem to imply (if not state outright), Winter's forces kept near the borders (both the Shared Border and the Outer Gates) meant there was only an honour guard to protect Mab and her assets at Arctis Tor. And yes, this also gave the Reds mostly uninhibited access through Faerie.
8. I think this was explained as a fetch, and yes quite probably on Mab's orders. And I agree Pell survived otherwise the book doesn't work. Intersting, perhaps it does help distract from Little Chicago.
9. Maybe...but I still think it brought the hallmarks of Fetches. Which is not to say Maeve didn't help, or lead.
10. Yeah I agree pretty much with all of that.
11. Yeah sure why not. Good as any other reason.

1105
DF Spoilers / Re: 1884-85 The time that Eb took up the Blackstaff
« on: October 27, 2019, 05:43:00 AM »
Considering the New Madrid earthquake was in 1811, it probably has nothing to do with the Blackstaff.


Wonder how Ebenezar didn't go crazy from killing hundreds, though.

Interesting. Because when Harry asks about the occasions when Ebenezar has had to ignore the Laws of Magic (such as Casaverde), Eb says New Madrid is one of the events that he caused. See the end of Blood Rites when Eb tells Harry about the Blackstaff.
 
So the only way this is possible is if Eb went back in time!

And we know that the Blackstaff protects EB from going crazy as per WOJ. So the only way Eb could have caused the New Madrid earthquake and killed all those people without becoming a gibbering warlock is by having the Blackstaff.

1106
DF Spoilers / Re: Elaine and Harry WAG
« on: October 22, 2019, 10:35:12 PM »
Just my thoughts, Bad Alias. Although the why then becomes convoluted...why would Justin fake his own death? Wouldn't it have been easier to fake his own death AND keep Harry as a thrall? Perhaps HWWBh made the call, perhaps Justin needed a "reliable" witness.

Mira - I am looking forward to your thread! Yes, I certainly agree that Lash or someone might have noticed. However, it all depends on how subtle the magic is, like a built-in trojan. And some of those, such as Lash and Mab, have excellent reasons NOT to tell Dresden if it aided their goals. Jim has hinted that Lash's "suicide" may have laid the foundation for Harry's in Changes. She isn't called the Webweaver for nothing... I doubt she would tell Dresden unless it suited her plans. Mab has more reason to tell him, unless she isn't as good as we think she is (I mean she might defend reality but that doesn't equal being good). Still, Harry is the less likely of the two. I think it is more likely Elaine anyway.

1107
DF Spoilers / Nemesis WAG
« on: October 22, 2019, 09:44:26 AM »
Nemesis – Invidia. (latin) for envy, one of the seaven deadly sins.

Wouldn't that be interesting if Nemesis was in fact how Nemesis was transferred? When a being becomes envious?

It would make a lot of sense when we consider Lea.

Lea has long been Mab's greatest rival, and most powerful servant, within the Winter Court. Mab has allowed her to gain significant Power whilst also incurring commensurate debt. Lea would both hate and envy Mab's power and position. She has to be one of the most ambitious of the Fae, as she would not have grown her power so much otherwise. In Dead Beat she gains Morgana's Athame, a weapon tainted with Nemesis, but still grant her enough power that she unbalanced the Winter Court and was a real threat to Mab's authority. But the fact that she openly challenged Mab at all is perhaps what is most strange, as even Lea wouldn't risk unbalancing the Winter Court normally. The Fae seem to like subterfuge, sex, and brutal violence when it comes to internal matter (although externally this also seems to be the case...).

Aurora too perhaps was envious, not of Titania's power I think, but of Mortal freedom. She was tired of being immortal and the endless cycle of death and rebirth.

Maeve of course was envious both of Sarissa's place in Mab's eyes, but also to a lesser extent, Mab's power and position. It is made pretty clear on Cold Days it is the fact that Sarissa is free-er and seemingly more loved by Mab than Maeve, that is the root of her anger and sadness.

Cat Sith...well who knows. Probably envious of the power of mightier beings in the Court, and deeply resentful of being beholden to Dresden. Perhaps envious of Dresden's higher status.

I am leaving out the mortals who Lily accused of being infected by Nemesis, as I don't want the discussion to be derailled and I don't think I will convince anyone that there is a good chance that the mortal's are infected. Let's just stick to the "known" infected candidates.

Also, whilst I am NOT saying that Nemesis IS one of the seven deadly sins, if that were the case then it would makes sense that there are other sins (and perhaps corresponding virtues) that are sentient beings. Food for thought.


1108
DF Spoilers / Elaine and Harry WAG
« on: October 22, 2019, 09:29:33 AM »
In Blood Rites Bob drops a pretty throwaway hint - "a fine thrall is so controlled they might not even know that they are a thrall at all, and it last long-term." He says this when explaining the difference between thralls and Renfields. Harry responds "just like Dumorne did to Elaine" to which Bob says "Sure - but it takes a lot of time and a certain amount of empathy"

So we know that Elaine was enthralled by Justin Dumorne - this was well established in Summer Knight (at least by Elaine's word...although it makes sense as Justin tried to do it to Harry and Elaine likely wouldn't have just gone along otherwise).

But two things are implied here:
          1) Justin had a certain amount of empathy towards Elaine and Harry.

          2) Someone is probably a thrall in the series, but they have no idea they are, and it has been going a long time.

It makes sense that Justin had a certain amount of empathy towards Harry and Elaine. From his scenes with Harry (aside from combat) it seems that he was a tough love sort, but did show warmth and affection. He may have been mad or corrupt, but he seems to have actually liked if not cared about his foster children.

Secondly, if Justin were Cowl - Elaine still being a thrall makes perfect sense. Hell, even if he isn't it still makes sense. She has definitely acted quite suspiciously throughout the series, with only plausible explanations helping her get out of trouble.

But what if Harry was the one still enthralled?

Would he even know? Would someone have picked up on it? There are some hints that this might be possible. For instance, in Summer Knight the Gatekeeper says Ancient Mai fears that Justin's teaching may have warped Harry in ways he cannot even see. While it is meant to read that it is more to do with the values that Harry might have learned from his time with (and even against) Justin, it also hints that Harry might not even be even able to tell if he has been shaped and controlled so. Another thing is that beings are constantly messing with or trying to mess with Harry's mind and Will. It is one of his greatest fears and weaknesses, and is a recurring theme in the series. Lasciel, Mab, Molly have all successfully messed with Harry's mind without him knowing for a long time. It could well be that a gifted psychomancer like Justin did just that, perhaps Harry only believes that he beat Justin and that there was a fire or perhaps there was a fire and a duel but the enthrallment wasn't fully broken (as we do know that Justin was attempting to enthrall Harry just before the final duel, and indeed got Harry to drink human blood as part of it and we all know how powerful human blood is, magically speaking). Constantly, most of the Council (especially the Senior Council) are worried about him being this Darth Vader like villain. Many of his enemies often believe that he will join their side, and knew his Mother (which is part of the reason many on the Council worry about him). Hell at one stage Nicodemus even believes that Lash has taken over Dresden and that it is in control. All this could be foreshadowing.

The obvious flaws are that during his star trial he would have likely been examined for such tampering, and Ebenezar would have looked too, plus likely a member of the Senior Council (unless it was Simon who vouched...which might hint all sorts of things, we know he is implied to have misled the council many times before). But presumably Mab or Molly would have noticed when they poked around in his head, or anyone else too.

Still though, the enthralled sleeper agent is a distinct possibility based on Bob's statement. I think either Elaine or Harry, or both, are enthalled.

Thoughts?

1109
DF Spoilers / Mavra and the Black Court
« on: October 22, 2019, 09:05:43 AM »
WAG time!

I think most would agree that there as at least an implied connection between the Black Court of Vampires and the Outsiders.

They are often described as being tainted by something inhuman, unworldy and evil. Something that robs them of all choice.

Renfields are particularly interesting - their will is some brutally and completely overridden that the person they were before is essentially dead. They are empowered by that same fell strength that the Black Court runs off (though obviously a lot less than a BCV). They are described as being bound by a vile collar of dark energy (a reflection of the magic that enslaves them), their muscles are bulging with blackened veins, but the worst is the eyes - which appear as though they have been clawed out and their is a hideous cold darkness, vast and terrible instead. A profound Nothing. This is their description when Harry views one with his Sight. Curiously, neither the OG Merlin nor any Saint on record who tried to remove the spell was able. This suggests to me that once their minds/psyches have been so dominated so violently by the BCV, they are effectively dead. There is nothing left of the original person. Just a meat suit.

The Renfields, and vampire thralls, are an example of how the White Council's Laws can be perverted and used against them. The White Council cannot kill (with magic) mortal beings, even Renfields it seems, making them effective tools and meat shields. It was problems like this that required the creation of the position of the Blackstaff.

A few inconsistencies, or at least issues, exist though. In Blood Rites, Harry believes that the Black Court have been around since the dawn of human civilization and Ebenezar says that Dracula (son of Drakul) went to join the Black Court as a sort of teenage rebellion. However in WOJ we have a quote saying that Dracula, in an effort to impress his father (Drakul), wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire - but it didn't work out so well. Finally, OG Merlin supposedly tried to remove or fix the Renfield curse/enthrallment. However, the OG Merlin would have existed about a thousand years before Dracula (who would have existed about 600 years before the Dresden Files).

So which is true? As the WOJ came after Blood Rites, most have taken that to mean Jim has retconned/rethought his original idea of the Black Court. Of course it could be a genuine mistake too, but perhaps the discrepancy was intentional (it would hardly be the first...). An easy solution to the Merlin issue is that he is a Time Traveler. But then, is Dracula? Did he go back to the dawn of humanity to become the first Black Court Vampire?

Also - Mavra is about 600 years old according to WOJ, and the name Mavra comes from a Russian opera about a love affair. Mavra is the pseudonym of a man (Vassili) pretending to be a servant. Is there a connection between Mavra and Russia? Well for one, Simon Pietrovich was Russian and the White Council's expert on Vampires. He is also the number one suspect for Cowl currently (as rated by these boards). It would fit - Jim loves those 80s references, the whole Russian vs America thing is very much a part of pop culture (and was heavily so in the 80s). Also, if Mavra is 600 years old she definitely existed during Dracula's reign. Which either makes her one of the oldest and strongest Black Court Vampires, but might also mean she was someone from history. Perhaps Dracula's sister/wife/mother etc.

I have also speculated in the past to the connection between Drakul and the Outsiders - which would make more sense if the Black Court were heavily connected to the Outsiders as well.


1110
DF Spoilers / Re: Big Finale Ending Trilogy
« on: October 14, 2019, 11:23:21 PM »
... have you read Zoo Day?

I hadn't, but now I have. Well I think that tale brings some truly interesting insights. And I believe it confirms my 3rd guess. I would say that we will see the return of Mouse's evil older brother - and meet his sister.

My guess from the story is that the cloaked figures who stole the Foo Dogs in the first place were Cowl and Kumori - and they each have a guardian now.

The first interesting thing in that story is the concept of "Law". We know that a lot of the supernatural types seem to play by a ill-defined set of rules, known only to them, which seems to be more prevalent amongst the more spiritual types. The haunts believed that under the Law, they had the right to test Maggie and seek her as prey. Considering much of this story is about purpose, I would say that this is theirs. All about facing your fears. Mouse even alludes to it, saying that what children learn from the "invisible" monsters of childhood stay with them for life. I suspect this Law is set out by the ranking Deity in this universe, or perhaps multiverse. I am undecided on whether it works the same as in DnD...that would mean there is a concept of Chaos, which I don't know that the "evil" beings we have seen totally fit. In DnD Baator is Lawful evil, the Abyss is Chaotic evil, and the Far Realms fall outside usual definitions (although technically there are some good theories they are actually responsible for all the evil in DnD). To me it seems like the Abyss and Baator are combined as Hell in Dresden Files, and the Far Realms is the Outside respectively.

I also think there is heavy elements of the Positive and Negative realms, considering the contrast of Mouse and his brother. I wouldn't go so far to say that they are Heaven and Hell - more like spectrums that run through everything.

Also Mouse prays to the Almighty, Mab and Odin. He refers to them as Powers. He doesn't act like he knows them, even though he has met Mab at least and considering his interaction with Uriel it seemed like he was more aware of things on a cosmic level. But perhaps not too. He was able to sense that the real threat was not the warlock or the haunts. Foo Dogs too seem to have the ability to do some minor reality-warping, influencing chance and luck amongst other things.

Still I stand by my prediction - we will see that battle, perhaps with both siblings and even more Foo Dogs, and we will learn more about them.

Also SK - do you have any predictions?

Bad Alias - Possibly not, however considering Jim will take another 20 years to finish the series she will be in at least her 30s by the end...Zoo Day actually sets up one last interesting thing that relates to her - the "evil" Foo Dog (Mouse's brother) didn't seem very interested in Dresden himself, but much more so in Maggie's future. Implying that she herself will have a very interesting life.

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