I get your point. Anyone too inflexible of thought, too dogmatic of belief, too narrow-minded, too insecure to have their views challenged and too arrogant or scared to be wrong is dangerous and difficult, and pitiable. Humans are more irrational than rational, it is quite literally how our brains work. The same area of the brain that signals DANGER lights up when our identity or views are attacked. Robots would never have such problems.

But a purely logical and unemotional society would be harsh, boring and probably wouldn't have made it as far. Certainly this wonderful series wouldn't have been written, for if Jim was purely logical in his attitude to writing he never would have believed he could write a 20 book series (as he puts it).

It's all about balance.

Nobody? Not TWG, the Archangels, the Mothers, anyone else with foresight?

And pretty sure that Vadderung said he knew more than Anduriel.

Very exciting! Do we think that the woman is Mab? Or is it another of the Fae? Or someone else?

Morris, I think that does look like a Marcone indeed.

Well... I'm not actually attached to "reject," and can work with "resist" for purposes of the conversation.  But I'm going by the dictionary, and by my reading of the books:

• Merriam-Webster:  "to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use"  (example of use:  "reject the suggestion")
• Cambridge English Dictionary (rejection):  "the act of refusing to accept, use, or believe someone or something"
• I'd check the OED, but it seems to be paywalled.

Well for a start, Merriam-Webster...I won't get into it but wouldn't start using it in academia is all I am saying.
But those definitions sort of prove my point. Harry did use, and consider using, Lash/Lasciel. He also believed her on several occasions. I am not, nor I think is anyone, saying that he didn't reject her influence most of the time. But completely reject her whole self? No, he never did that. He Chose to keep his power. He Chose to wrestle with her in his mind. Now whether that is good or evil or anything else is impossible to know really. But it does say a lot about Dresden, both good and bad. At the very least, it smacks of arrogance. Most people would do everything in their power to rid themselves of demonic influence, or embrace it. But Harry chose to believe his willpower (as Mira rightly points out) was so incredible that he could do what few others could. Now he may have been partially right, but a more humble person even if they had Harry's willpower or greater more likely would have gone for help and made the sacrifice in order to be free.

I think these are pretty spot-on for the vast majority of Harry-v-Lash interactions.  He didn't reject everything, in every situation.  But he rejected the overwhelming majority of them, and ALWAYS rejected the option of taking up the Coin.  There's a kinda-sorta exception for Hellfire -- Lash snuck it into his magic without Harry even understanding it, and (AFAICT) he wasn't ABLE to use his magic without invoking Hellfire; true, he could have abandoned magic... but we know he won't give up his magic, it's too much a part of his identity.

edit:  I don't think the eidetic-memory thing counts, exactly.  That's a human thing, and it was running on Harry's brain, so Harry was just using his own brain's capacity in a way he hadn't previously been able to.  OTOH, I've got to grant the ancient languages thing -- Ghoul, Whamp-Etruscan, etc.

I agree it is exceptional that he didn't take up the Coin. I also think if he had, he wouldn't have resisted or rejected Lasciel for nearly as long as Lash. Lash was just a shadow. The real deal would have been much worse, and Harry knew it.

But I don't think she snuck the magic in there. That would violate Free Will. Harry accepted that, even chose to access it even if he didn't entirely understand what he was doing. It may not have been an informed choice but there was a choice. Him choosing to not give up his magic is also a choice, regardless of his identity. He had the option.

But as we know, the Fallen don't really give their hosts *more* magical power, just unlock what is in them by feeding their vices. Which annoys me, because it didn't always seem like that in the series but the latest book basically says that (when Harry and Hannah are talking during their duel). And it doesn't explain really how their combat forms or Anduriel's shadow magic work...unless it sort of is like the Alphas in that they know a sort of spell just for that.

So the argument that the photographic memory is"just" a human thing doesn't really work...as essentially everything the Fallen "grant" is really just unlocking the potential in the human. In fact - it almost seems that is exactly how those sort of power-ups work. The Winter Knight mantle exactly. Unless you trade in your mortal/human nature and become an entirely supernatural creature. I think the language thing was Harry accessing Lasciel's knowledge. Harry never really knew that language, he was just borrowing her mind. In terms of mechanics.

Later on, I think he was able to use more (or less) depending on what he wanted; but I'm unclear that he was EVER able to stop using it, until Lash finally gave up (and sacrificed herself).
 
He did choose to pick up the coin, and he owned up to that Choice as a meaningful and bad one.  In other words, he repented, and tried to atone.

Lash infected his magic with her Hellfire; NOT his choice.  He realized what had happened, but didn't know how to fix it.

I mean, sure. He was able to control it once he figured out it was happening. Which is still choosing to use it. There is of course an obvious way to stop using Hellfire - don't use magic. Pretty simple.

But it WAS his choice. He chose to touch the coin, he chose to access Lash, his choices led him to Hellfire. No way around it. He could have not cast spells, not touched the coin, not accessed Lash. But he did. Unfortunately, in Butcher's world, that counts as a choice. A compromised one, but no less a defined choice.

And not so sure that he repented. He felt bad. He regretted it. But he never really asked for atonement. He tried to rectify his mistake, but he didn't try everything. And when Michael gave him his only real option, he chose not to take it. He got "lucky" that Lash committed suicide (assuming it was pure chance that she "died"...and his influence changing her helped create that "luck")

As for his choice to use Hellfire "letting her" talk to him?  I think that was a classic Fallen Lie!  Here's my logic:

• Lasciel's Shadow makes this claim in chapter 25, as Harry is dreaming.  "You made the conscious choice" to use Hellfire earlier that day, "and as a result, I can now appear to your conscious mind."  Please note, it's his dreaming mind, not his conscious mind; so already a lie.
• Where did he use it?  It was in chapter 17, when Harry used Hellfire (specifically and intentionally) to bolster his mental defenses against Corpsetaker's assault.  I don't think he was ABLE to keep Hellfire out of his Fuego (and sometimes Forzare) magic, so he wasn't -- quite -- "choosing" to use it there.
• But in chapter 16, and the prior day in chapter 7 (both occurring before his fight with Corpsetaker) Harry had quite extensive interactions with Sheila... and that was his conscious mind!

So I conclude that the Shadow was able to contact him whenever it wanted, and chose its own time and manner.

Well maybe it was a lie, but where was the angelic intervention to balance the scales? That is precisely what Uriel's job, and his department is for.

But I don't think it was. For a start, if we start assuming dreams are "lies" then Malcolm Dresden in Harry's dream was a lie. Which I think has been confirmed that it wasn't. But just because something happens in your head doesn't make it not real. Your head is precisely where you filter and process all the information your body receives. And Lash was referring to the fact that he was able to have a conversation with her at all. Before that she was in his subconscious. She isn't talking about his state of being asleep or awake.

The choice to use Hellfire was made earlier than that. He made it when he chose to touch that coin. Like entering a room full of high-levels of radiation, you are not choosing for it to poison you or enter your system, but by choosing to enter that room you have accepted that your environment may change and it may not be the same as the room you left - whether or not you know the room is full of radiation. And again, he could also have chosen to not use magic. He could have fought, and probably died, as a mortal.

Shiela was the product of him picking up Lasciel's coin. He accepted that outcome by touching it. He may not have been aware it would happen like that, but that doesn't change that he put himself in a situation where he thought he had to pick up the coin. The whole series, especially in the latest few books, is about how a mortal creates it's own reality through the choices that it makes.

Apologies if I was unclear!  I wasn't talking about surrendering the Coin.  I was talking about the Shadow:  The "unparalleled feat" was operating for so long with the Shadow trying to convince him, neither taking up the Coin nor turning it over and renouncing his powers.

Nobody had ever done that.

Fair enough, I did misunderstand you there. Although it doesn't prove it was unparalleled. Just unheard of and rare.

Yes, we know the Church's records are incomplete, but they're extensive; and there was no hint in them.  Nicodemus was confident enough that the Shadow could control Harry that he turned his back on Harry at a critical moment; an extraordinary error neither Nic nor Anduriel would've made, if either thought it possible for Harry to be free.

Actually that is a essentially a false position (on the part of the Church). They believe that their records are extensive. But how would they know what they don't know? Depending on how thoroughly Nic wipes the records, and who he has eliminated with that knowledge, they might have no idea how much they are missing. Think about when Mab messed with Harry's mind and removed his knowledge of fire magic and took his blasting rod, or when Molly wiped the memory of planning his suicide. Harry didn't even know what he was missing, or what had happened. Who knows what else has happened in his head.

Nicodemus is arrogant. Like many of Harry's foes, he has constantly underestimated Dresden's want to be "good". They also underestimate Harry's willpower and strength. Because they are not like him, because so few are, they fail to really understand his deeper nature. And it becomes their downfall. This is a key part of the series. Nicodemus, and those like him, truly believe everyone else is as bad as they are and will succumb to evil because they themselves failed the test.

I admit I do find it curious that Anduriel didn't intervene at all during the fight in Small Favor. But I have a theory. Whether Anduriel believed Lash, or Lasciel, wasn't present at all doesn't really matter. I think the Denarian-Fallen are like the One Ring. They betray their charges when it suits them, perhaps when they need them most. I think the Denarian-Fallen are the same plot device as the Rings of Power, specifically like the Nine Rings, in Lord of the Rings. Jim is a BIG Lord of the Rings fan. From a narrative and story crafting perspective, they essentially function the same way. I think Anduriel chose not to help Nicodemus, as the truth is all of the Fallen despise mortals for having the totally Free Will that they were denied. I think Anduriel doesn't really like working with Nicodemus really, it is just convenience. What is 2000 years to a being older than the universe? A blink of an eye. And yet they are so limited that I think they are much more angry than the Fallen in Hell, perhaps for other reasons not clear. Lucifer seemed to think that those 30 Fallen were the most likely to stab him in the back. Perhaps they are nihilists.

Finally, we have Lash's testimony herself, in White Night.  This is the book where the Shadow is finally shaken and doubtful, where Harry's influence is becoming clear, and ultimately (in chater 41) sacrifices herself for Harry.  But in chapter 34, she admits it...
Harry: "How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for more than a few weeks, huh?  Longer than three years?"
Lash:  "Never."
So this is everything Lasciel knows -- all of her own prior Shadows, plus all cases of every other Denarian Shadows that she knows of.  Was she lying?  Maybe (it's hard to tell with the Fallen!).  But I think not:  all she had to do, to undermine Harry's confidence and bolster her own argument, was to coolly claim it was "unusual, but hardly rare" (or some such).  Instead, this chapter shows us Lash being uncertain, struggling to resist HARRY'S suasion, and generally speaking frankly with him.  Why would she lie in such a way as to strengthen Harry's will to resist & weaken her own arguments?

Oh I don't think she was lying. I think no one had ever resisted her for so long. That hurt her pride, her ego. I mean she is known for her ability to tempt, even amongst the Fallen.

But she could have been wrong. We only know about the Denarian-Fallen. We know very little about the Fallen that are in Hell. Harry possibly did resist her longer than any other victim. But did he resist longer than an other mortal to any of the other Fallen, Denarian-bound or otherwise? Who can say. There is only scant info for 2000 years. And one more thing, if she really was a good temptress, that whole scene actually feeds Harry's ego and she should have known it. If she did all that to convince him that he won, he might actually let his guard down. But that's another theory.

Mira - quite right. Harry did underestimate the Coins. And he is arrogant enough to believe that he could do it on his own, and that if he didn't he was morally weak. Michael even chastises him of this at the end of Cold Days (about his deal with Mab). I believe Thomas made a similar point at one stage, reminding Harry that even though he (thomas) is himself a monster but he manages it. Harry has a pathological need to believe he is morally good, and he must prove it to himself. Anything less, to his mind, makes him evil. Which is absurd. He sets a higher standard for himself than is reasonable, and if he falls short he allows that to be an excuse for acting out.

Well, I think the Angels might disagree with your interpretation of accepting the coin. Reread that scene with the Angel of Death. Your choices, however uniformed, are yours alone. Magic seems to work the same, see the whole thing about consequences of using magic are more important than intentions. Jim wrote a whole thing on it.

But yes, he didn't keep it. So he resisted. But he wouldn't have forever. if Mab hadn't been able to help, he would have take up Lasciel or another Coin.

That Entropy Curse is pretty powerful. It warps reality to the point a plane happened to be flying overhead, and that the turkey within the plan somehow fell out. I am sure if the plane had not been there it would have been something else, but it IS still incredible.

Tbh, I think what Harry was saying was that ALL rituals like that are "vending-machine variety". That's how the work, the power and the magic comes from outside the performer of the ritual.

No, we don't know that they could have done an actual summoning. But I think for summoning to be the threat that it is, anyone can do it. Hence why the White Council like to circulate the knowledge so the power is spread too thin. That's why everyone knows the Necronomicon.

Yeah Nemesis does seem to be more effective, and certainly more dangerous, than the regular Walkers. Who basically seem to just be brutes.

Yeah I don't think Nemesis might be as easily summonable, but I DO think that it is less about the ritual and more about WHAT Nemesis is and the materials used in the ritual (blood, sacrifice, maybe mordite or some other Outside stuff) that make it potent. In fact I would be willing to bet that in order to summon Nemesis, you need a conjunction. Something to support major magical mojo.

Yes, Harry did reject the shadow.  Every day!  This was an incredible feat, unknown to the Church and even (if Lash was to believed) unknown to Lasciel herself!  Do not diminish this achievement just because it wasn't a complete purge, or whatever... it is, apparently, unparalleled in all of Creation!

What Harry didn't do -- couldn't do -- was rid himself of the shadow.

What could happen -- what DID happen -- was the shadow, trying to change Harry, became changed itself.

g33k, where are you getting this information?

I mean he resisted Lasciel's influence to a point (and I am going to use the word resist instead of reject as I think it is closer to what you mean) but he never fully cast her out (reject). Like technically you could use the word reject, but it is more accurate to use resist. Why? Because Harry did accept Lash's help. He Chose to touch the coin instead of picking up little Harry. He Chose to use Hellfire, which allowed Lash to speak with him. He Chose to use her eidetic (photographic) memory. He constantly kept Choosing to use Hellfire. Not exactly rejecting every day, as you put it. He may not have allowed for full possession, or even to work with her actively, most of the time. But he did some of the time, especially in combat (desperation or not).

Where was it EVER said that this "feat" was unparalleled? Which isn't much. As Michael implies, wizards have resisted by giving up their power. Sanya gave up his Coin. Hardly makes Dresden's trial unique. Dresden did resist the Shadow for a long time, longer than most, but where was it said he achieved something greater than any other?

AND AGAIN - As Harry points out it is arrogant in the extreme if the Church believe NO ONE EVER HAS RID THEMSELVES OF A SHADOW. How could the Church know? Their records are destroyed almost systematically, every few years!

Again...Harry points out that there is no way Michael could no for sure that no one had EVER rejected a Shadow. Michael is not all knowing. Nicodemus destroys records all the time.

Whether Harry did or did not or whatever variation of that is somewhat irrelevant.

And Harry would have taken a Coin if no Winter Knight or Darkhallow (which would have required mass death)...Harry would have more likely become a Denarian than a Necro-God.

Nic was shocked because the Shadow wasn't in control, just to be clear. He was shocked because he never thought someone like Dresden would resist. Michael, sure. Sanya, yep. Shiro, no doubt. Dresden has always been, especially in his own mind, gray in the moral sense. He isn't the White Knight.

See this quote from Ghost Story:

And what Kusanagi actually is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusanagi

Definitely more Shinto than christian. These things adapt to keep functional. How they express themself is a function of human belief. It is probably older than christianity and it will survive it.

Absolutely agree. That's the whole point that Jim made isn't it - that it's mortal's understanding of the entities that changes, not really the entities themselves.

Any reading of Changes suggesting that the Knights balanced the table at Chechen Itza seems a little nearsighted.  Harry is shitting kittens thinking he has led his allies to their deaths. Had the Knights been able to run the table, Susan needn't have died.  Harry killed every vampire everywhere. god was late to the game and purely local.

As an extra added attraction for the Butter's story line he had to mug Murphy, again.  She is apparently Jim's torture doll.  While Butters was carving the dead Murphy got mind raped.  Lost her career and got demoted. Got dumped at the boat and abandoned in place to cope with the Fomor and the White Vamps. And got a bad knee and a rep as a sword breaker. Kincaid broke her arm, but at least he showed her a good time. Oh yeah and she got puppeted by an angel.  She deserved a larger cut of the diamonds.  And the sword.

I am not suggesting at all that they balanced the table any more than any other piece on the chess board. Merely we are speculating how they are able to overcome odds and the powers that their swords grant them. The salient point is less about ability, and more about destiny. The Knights represent TWG, the Creator, the Authority etc. Which is pretty established by Jim both in the books and without. We definitely know that the Almighty created the universe etc, and that they serve the Almighty. It rather seems logical then that the Knights make their choices, which lead them to create a present of their own making. Hence why the whole interference thing by Angels is so tightly managed. They don't just rewrite reality without permission, as that would lead to them negating Free Will, which sort of defeats the purpose of having it.

But just because the Knights CAN have destiny on their side, doesn't mean they always do. Murphy didn't when she broken the Sword, attempting to kill Nicodemus in a faithless act. Michael didn't when he was shot on the island. Shiro didn't when he gave up his Sword. But funnily enough whilst those individual events don't go well, somehow the whole tapestry of events works out better. Murphy's failure allowed for Butter's success. Shiro's sacrifice allowed for Harry to live, and for Murphy to be a knight, and for Butters to become a Knight. Michael's defeat allowed for him to spend more time with his family, to be there for them and enjoy his life. And to be available when Harry needed him most. It's an enormous game of Go or Chess or whatever - and each move allows for countermoves in a complex and infinite structure beyond human comprehension. Which is why if TWG had wanted them to defeat the Red Court that day, he would have built in the possibilities and chances for that and left it to them to make the choices to create that version of events. But a diffferent destiny had been lined up, which Harry and his allies realized (with all the entailing consequences).

God wasn't late to the game as you put it; he started playing before the Universe got started - if we go by Christian doctrine. Which seems to be how the Dresden Files largely operates. Can't beat a player who planned the whole thing and every conceivable version of events, who is everywhere and able to do anything and knows everything. That's a rigged game, son. Unless of course Free Will keeps it random - and that is whole nature of the battle between Heaven and Hell.

I agree with your analysis about Murphy, from a story perspective. Definitely Jim likes having a few punching bags alongside Harry to manipulate the reader. Wouldn't be a very interesting story if we didn't care. You could argue that Murphy has a rougher time than most, but if you picked the Dresden Files for the good times you are probably reading the wrong series. It's a tragedy, not a comedy really.