I agree Dina.


I personally think the opposite and that everything will be more shaken up, not less. More division between the groups, not more unity. However, I do think there will be SOME groups and individuals who become more involved in the fight and become closer. But not the majority at all.

I will help out here.

The problem as I see it, is that this discussion has become one of trying to contain concepts that are inherently messy. Trying to define whether someone died or did not is a tricky enough proposition, let alone the mechanics of the afterlife. We are approaching a spiritual discussion, on metaphysics and abstract ideas, in a scientific way. Therein lies the problem.

If it helps, think of this a little more like quantum mechanics. Harry both WAS and WASN'T dead. He both WAS and WASN'T a ghost. It's all a matter of perspective. The answer is not quantitative, but qualitative. As Mab says, death is a spectrum not a line. Mortal's fear it and want it to be black, but death is a grey word.

The same applies to the ghost issue. Harry did become a ghost, sort of. The circumstances allowed for his soul, and the ghost, to work in sync. Which I suspect is why he was both as limited as a normal ghost, yet able to do things beyond the ability of a normal ghost. His soul is the x factor. Remember, several major heavyweight supernaturals were working together on this. Not normal circumstances at all.

So morris, I hope that answers your question. He was MORE than a ghost.

As for Sir Stuart, I think the answer is already in front of us. See the quote by nadia.skylark - ghosts that are exceptional can grow and change. Sir Stuart's ghost got a job working in Uriel's house. Sir Stuart was already beyond - wherever the afterlife took him. Uriel wasn't hiring a memory, but a shade of a great man, that had become something more. Consider the power and value of a human soul - especially the creative power. It appears in the books powerful enough to create more, and affect all of reality by creating alternate universes based on it's own choices. Not something even immortals seem to be able to do. Sir Stuart, perhaps by aiding Mort and Harry, and perhaps by attaching itself to new sources of power became greater than the original shade produced. This is why Uriel wanted him.

As for the quote, well done on digging up the original source. I merely took Jim's word for it, and he probably just took someone else's. The spread of misinformation is so easy. So thank you for finding that! But I think it doesn't really matter who said it first, in terms of this discussion. The point is that Uriel said it in the Dresden Files, to Harry. That is basically getting cosmic-level truth.

I personally think that Necromancy uses power from Outside in order to break the rules of reality. Which is why they can do all sorts of things when powered by a human. Hence the tricks of Kemmler and Capiocorpus. But they are very rare, for the most part it seems that beings when they experience irreversible physical death they don't come back. But to say it is impossible...well I think not. As one WOJ states, if you have enough magical power you could rewrite reality. So possible and impossible become somewhat irrelevant.

For those who were involved in the discussion in the DF Spoilers section in the Peace Talks Update thread, let us continue here.

For those watching or wanting to come in I shall summarize.

We are debating how an intelligence (human or otherwise) makes a choice, and somewhat how an individual shops at the supermarket.

Do you require emotion? Can robots make choices? How do you choose what the best value for money is? Should it be the law that price compared to weight is available on the shelf label or should we all be able to do the math in our heads? What is a good value proposition? And so on.

Morris, Daniel Kahneman whilst being a heavy weight in his field, is not the only authority. Indeed, Gerd Gergerenzer (his most prominent critic) has argued strongly that Kahneman treats people as being basically incapable of making the best choice for themselves, which Gergerenzer argues isn't actually the case. Kahneman even admitted he relied too heavily on weak studies in some areas of his book (which was a very gracious thing to do when confronted with a criticism of your life's work).

I have always thought that shops be they supermarkets or general stores or anything in between, should provide a price in weight. And many do in many countries, as Dina says it is often the law. People should be able to do their own calculations too, but then again at the end of the day customers just want a good value proposition. Each of us might have a different idea of what that is, but the more information available then the easier that is for consumers to make their own choice, rather than a guided one.

But this is all way off topic. Perhaps we should get back to discussing Peace Talks.

For those that are interested I will be starting a thread in the Bar for anyone who wishes to discuss this all further. 

Link: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53300.0.html

1) Ortega calls Harry a self-righteous madman who will "destroy us all". What is he talking about? Harry might be self-righteous and has a few times been accused of being crazy, but how would Harry's actions destroy everyone? My guess is that the Reds don't want the end of the world, they simply want to be on top when it comes. Harry's early start to the war interferes with that plan and perhaps Ortega believes only the Red Court would have the power to control the outcome of the end times - an event or series of event that lots of players seem aware of that is imminent.

2) Martin believed Ortega was trying to delay the full war for another 20 years. It has almost been 20 years by our time, but lets say that Dresden is a few years behind us right now for various reasons. What happens in the next few years from Peace Talks? Book 20 for one and the end of the case files (maybe) and the beginning of the BAT. So at least according to Jim Butcher's original timeline for the series, why would the Reds want to wait until the BAT to start their war?

3) Nicodemus refers to his "schedule". This links with the whole BAT thing. I suspect he knew that the Shroud wasn't the "real" Shroud but he knew it had enough juice to do what he wanted.

4) Mordite is first introduced. This is not an accident.

5) Lord Raith is scared of Ortega. At full power I cannot imagine that Ortega would have been able to take a fully powered up Lord Raith. But I can understand why Lord Raith was afraid of Ortega in his weakened state. But I also wonder if this was more to do with who Ortega represented, Ariana for one, but perhaps the Circle? It seems likely that she was a part of it.

6) The connection between Maggie, Justin, Lord Raith, Ariana, Ortega and Nicodemus is hinted at over the books. And oddly enough but more subtly, Ebenezar.

7) Denarians are definitely stronger in this book. Specifically they all use more anti-magic via their Fallen.

8 ) Some odd continuity errors. Harry doesn't have his bracelet during the Duel with Ortega and he doesn't have it during the fight immediately afterwards. He even specifically notes that it is harder to create a shield without one, and then in the following paragraph when the shield fails he says his bracelet began to burn his wrist. Obviously the Churchmice-Marcone buyer plot point is retconned in Skin Games. And Sanya claims that Michael's armor will not stop bullets - yet we know that Charity put ceramic and kevlar in. And of course the eye color change. Initially the Fallen's eyes are orange, and the host has green. But then it reverses mid book, in the same scene! Forever after the Fallen have green eyes. And by Small Favor the glyph/symbol of the Fallen no longer appears on the forehead of the vessel.

9) Denarians release a contagion - a cocktail of every virus known to man and probably a few more that are unknown. However when reading this again I immediately thought of another thing: the contagion of the spirit spreading around the world. Nemesis.

10) In this book we learn that the forces of Hell get a power boost from destruction and mayhem. The plague will create an environment that makes them more powerful. We also learn later on that the Black Court of Vampires also gain power this way - see the WOJ on how the Black Court level up. Finally, a recent WOJ in response to a fan question about the Spanish Flu also implied that it was not merely a bad contagion, but was essentially a bio-weapon attack. My theory is that perhaps there is a link between the forces of Hell and the Black Court, perhaps they even work together. But more on that in another thread.

Do we know this? My recollection is that the only place we hear this from is Maeve in Cold Days, when she's on her lying spree. Given that, and given that she would quite enjoy getting Harry killed by convincing her to attack Mab, I wouldn't consider her a reliable source.

Otoh, I may be misremembering. Do we ever hear this from anyone else?

Lily actually confirms this, and she would know, she wouldn't need Maeve to tell her. This would be instinctual and perhaps also trained knowledge, because she did spend almost a decade training with Titania.

But also - Occam's razor. It makes sense. Although I would say the crucially left out piece of information is the Winter Knight's mortal nature in combination with Winter's power is what makes him truly dangerous. He can choose to kill her. Which is much more than her other vassals.

Also Maeve didn't need to lie. If Dresden died trying to end Mab she wouldn't become Queen, which was one of her main objectives. Maeve could have killed Harry much earlier if her intention was that. But she didn't. She truly wanted Mab dead, she hated Mab most of all.

And it is foreshadowing how Mab will die. If that wasn't obvious.

He also had instinctive predatory abilities, like those of a wolf, when fighting Fix and against Maeve.

We also know that his power is tied to the power of the Queens, which gives a unique advantage against them. Not a lot, but not nothing either (which is most beings). Mab cannot defend against her own power, it seems.

A massive resistance to regular pain and fatigue...although again as Butter's points out this might be more to do with removing natural limits in the brain.

Harry has often described that he adds "winter" to his magic missile attack ("something Mab gave him") that he often describes as part of his best shot.

Very interesting question.

I like the answer you have given, especially as Jim when writing how one gives up a denarian was only thinking about it from a Wizards perspective.

The simple answer of course, is that almost no one ever does, so there might not be much knowledge for how to do it.

Our case study is Sanya. What did Sanya put aside to remove the Fallen? His ego? His tainted love for Rosanna? It is unclear. Yes admittedly he was giving up the Coin, not resisting a shadow.

So perhaps you have to take up the Coin to get rid of the Shadow if you are a vanilla mortal. Have to go forward to go back, so to speak.