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Messages - Yuillegan

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1066
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« on: January 18, 2020, 01:39:20 AM »
Well, I am pretty sure Drakul is also an Outsider but anyway - it might no be a 'basic' monster, but it seems like a relatively low-level Outsider, which Goblins and other Fae seemed to be able to kill.

And from what Jim has said about Eb, he was even wilder and more gung-ho than Harry!

Unless the Cornerhound is specifically deadly in a certain way to Wizards or something, I don't really see why Eb would be more afraid in this situation than taking on Vampires or Demons or Faeries etc.

EDIT:
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1067
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« on: January 17, 2020, 01:34:28 PM »
Yeah, like Drakul. But not some basic monster.

1068
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« on: January 17, 2020, 06:39:22 AM »
He has, but it didn't prove particularly effective against HWWBefore. In saying that, I mostly think that is because Harry hasn't figured out how best to use it in that situation.

1069
DF Spoilers / Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« on: January 17, 2020, 05:27:15 AM »
Bad Alias has hit on an important point here, and Mira is also right too. We are splitting hairs here.

However. PLEASE refer the my original post where Jim explains the difference between SOULS and GHOSTS. This isn't my speculation or someone else's. This is Jim explaining his ideas about the universe he has created. Use this to inform your theories please, as this whole thread is starting to become derailed into arguments.


1070
DF Spoilers / Re: ErlKing question/ PG
« on: January 17, 2020, 05:20:47 AM »
Very much agree with both g33k and Bad Alias here.

The reasons there is confusion on this topic is there are WOJ's that say that the Erlking is a Summer King, other later WOJ's say he is a King of the Wyld Fae, and that it doesn't matter as that there is a reason Mab rules the worst of the worst and not the Erlking, despite him previously calling them 'peers'.

Early WOJs say his origins are on the Summer side, but I think it it more complicated than that. Kringle's origins are likely as not Summer in nature, yet he is thought of as the 'Winter King'. It is more about which side the Wyld Fae choose during conflicts between the major Fae powers (i.e. Summer and Winter), just like mercenary lords in a war between two Monarchs.

And remember, the Erlking wasn't always merely the Erlking. Just like Kringle that is more likely just one of his masks. Another was hinted at during his first appearance in Cold Days when Eldest Gruff referred to him as "Lord Herne" as in Herne the Hunter from Celtic mythology. These are gods wearing mantles in order to preserve their active power in the world, immortals find change so very difficult. The Queens of Faerie have long been guessed at as being someone (or a group of someones) other than their "normal" mask/mantle.

1071
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« on: January 17, 2020, 05:09:35 AM »
I agree Dina.

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I personally think the opposite and that everything will be more shaken up, not less. More division between the groups, not more unity. However, I do think there will be SOME groups and individuals who become more involved in the fight and become closer. But not the majority at all.

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1072
DF Spoilers / Peace talks excerpt indications
« on: January 17, 2020, 04:55:17 AM »
So this is a very interesting excerpt.

!!!SPOILER WARNING!!!

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1073
DF Spoilers / Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« on: January 12, 2020, 07:28:46 AM »
I will help out here.

The problem as I see it, is that this discussion has become one of trying to contain concepts that are inherently messy. Trying to define whether someone died or did not is a tricky enough proposition, let alone the mechanics of the afterlife. We are approaching a spiritual discussion, on metaphysics and abstract ideas, in a scientific way. Therein lies the problem.

If it helps, think of this a little more like quantum mechanics. Harry both WAS and WASN'T dead. He both WAS and WASN'T a ghost. It's all a matter of perspective. The answer is not quantitative, but qualitative. As Mab says, death is a spectrum not a line. Mortal's fear it and want it to be black, but death is a grey word.

The same applies to the ghost issue. Harry did become a ghost, sort of. The circumstances allowed for his soul, and the ghost, to work in sync. Which I suspect is why he was both as limited as a normal ghost, yet able to do things beyond the ability of a normal ghost. His soul is the x factor. Remember, several major heavyweight supernaturals were working together on this. Not normal circumstances at all.

So morris, I hope that answers your question. He was MORE than a ghost.

As for Sir Stuart, I think the answer is already in front of us. See the quote by nadia.skylark - ghosts that are exceptional can grow and change. Sir Stuart's ghost got a job working in Uriel's house. Sir Stuart was already beyond - wherever the afterlife took him. Uriel wasn't hiring a memory, but a shade of a great man, that had become something more. Consider the power and value of a human soul - especially the creative power. It appears in the books powerful enough to create more, and affect all of reality by creating alternate universes based on it's own choices. Not something even immortals seem to be able to do. Sir Stuart, perhaps by aiding Mort and Harry, and perhaps by attaching itself to new sources of power became greater than the original shade produced. This is why Uriel wanted him.

As for the quote, well done on digging up the original source. I merely took Jim's word for it, and he probably just took someone else's. The spread of misinformation is so easy. So thank you for finding that! But I think it doesn't really matter who said it first, in terms of this discussion. The point is that Uriel said it in the Dresden Files, to Harry. That is basically getting cosmic-level truth.

I personally think that Necromancy uses power from Outside in order to break the rules of reality. Which is why they can do all sorts of things when powered by a human. Hence the tricks of Kemmler and Capiocorpus. But they are very rare, for the most part it seems that beings when they experience irreversible physical death they don't come back. But to say it is impossible...well I think not. As one WOJ states, if you have enough magical power you could rewrite reality. So possible and impossible become somewhat irrelevant.

1074
DF Spoilers / Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« on: December 23, 2019, 09:58:47 AM »
This is very interesting Arjan!

And yet it doesn't entirely contradict anything either. I put it down to Jim's poetic writing myself. Because spirits like Bob don't have Souls, but are made of "spirit" which is sometimes a synonym for essence.

Uriel actually combines the term when talking to Dresden. Mab called the combination of his Soul and Spirit (which is what Dresden was in Ghost Story) his essence.

But do these being really understand what a Soul really is? I think not. I think Jim has a definition for his series, then he has a definition which some of his characters understand. And then he probably has a personal definition which may or may not be the foundation of all of that, but isn't really necessary to discuss.

But are you arguing that essence and soul are the same thing? Is a soul even necessary for a body to function (in the Dresden Files)? It seems that if you get shunted out of your own body then your soul isn't totally necessary for your body to function - a body might be like a car, it functions (by and large) no matter who is driving.

It gets even more curious when you consider that Jim has said you can lose your soul without any supernatural thing coming along. Yet Johnny Marcone, Nicodemus etc seem to have souls. And they would be some of the worst around surely? So what IS the criteria for losing your soul?

Perhaps Jim will never answer this.

But

1075
The Bar / On the nature of decision making
« on: December 23, 2019, 04:55:09 AM »
For those who were involved in the discussion in the DF Spoilers section in the Peace Talks Update thread, let us continue here.

For those watching or wanting to come in I shall summarize.

We are debating how an intelligence (human or otherwise) makes a choice, and somewhat how an individual shops at the supermarket.

Do you require emotion? Can robots make choices? How do you choose what the best value for money is? Should it be the law that price compared to weight is available on the shelf label or should we all be able to do the math in our heads? What is a good value proposition? And so on.

1076
DF Spoilers / Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« on: December 23, 2019, 04:48:51 AM »
 ;D ^^ Glad someone said it!

Bad Alias, when you say "bring back life", do you mean essentially filling the body with life energy without a Soul present?

1077
DF Spoilers / Re: Any news on Peace Talks
« on: December 23, 2019, 04:46:18 AM »
Morris, Daniel Kahneman whilst being a heavy weight in his field, is not the only authority. Indeed, Gerd Gergerenzer (his most prominent critic) has argued strongly that Kahneman treats people as being basically incapable of making the best choice for themselves, which Gergerenzer argues isn't actually the case. Kahneman even admitted he relied too heavily on weak studies in some areas of his book (which was a very gracious thing to do when confronted with a criticism of your life's work).

I have always thought that shops be they supermarkets or general stores or anything in between, should provide a price in weight. And many do in many countries, as Dina says it is often the law. People should be able to do their own calculations too, but then again at the end of the day customers just want a good value proposition. Each of us might have a different idea of what that is, but the more information available then the easier that is for consumers to make their own choice, rather than a guided one.

But this is all way off topic. Perhaps we should get back to discussing Peace Talks.

For those that are interested I will be starting a thread in the Bar for anyone who wishes to discuss this all further.  :)

Link: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53300.0.html


1078
DF Spoilers / Re: Some interesting things from Death Masks
« on: December 23, 2019, 04:11:02 AM »
I think the events of the BAT are arriving ahead of schedule. That's why Nicodemus is in a hurry to break into Hades vault.

That seems likely. But I also think there is a definite link between when the war was "meant" to happen and the events that will happen in the BAT.

I might be misremembering, but I thought this one was explained as Sanya not knowing about the kevlar and stuff.

Except why would Michael say that his Faith protects him against bullets in that scene to Sanya? It seems pretty clear in this scene that Sanya is more modern and Michael is more old world.

Paolo and Ariana didn't exactly have a conventionally close relationship, though. She seems to have been on the Circle, but his vehement opposition to drawing out a balanced war like the Circle wanted strongly suggests he wasn't.

When he said Harry's stubbornness would 'destroy us all' I think he was accusing Harry of playing into the Circle's hands. I don't think he necessarily had enough of the pieces to know what was coming in the BAT scenario or have a strong plan to play it to the Reds' advantage, but he recognized some part of the Circle was moving to destabilize the supernatural nations.

Specifically what the relationship was described as was volatile. She would call for him then send him away to keep her hatred hot. What's your reasoning to say that the Circle wanted a protracted, balanced conflict? If anything they wanted the opposite.

Ariana wanted to end the war. Her first appearance in Changes is for exactly that, she sues for peace. They also try to end the war in Summer Knight. Shiro explains to Harry in Death Masks that the Red Court wanted a war, they wanted a fight and he was set up. But it was sooner than some would have liked, which is why they wanted to end it early and gather their strength for a final decisive blow.

Paolo may not have known all the pieces to the puzzle, he may not even be on the Circle. But he did plan and execute the attack on Archangel. He was prepared to attempt to kill the dangerous Wizard Dresden himself. He even had a pretty good plan that was mostly thwarted by Martin, and stopped altogether by Ebenezar. And he was associated with a few characters who seem to be linked to the Circle, if not outright members of it.

1079
DF Spoilers / Some interesting things from Death Masks
« on: December 22, 2019, 11:43:15 PM »
1) Ortega calls Harry a self-righteous madman who will "destroy us all". What is he talking about? Harry might be self-righteous and has a few times been accused of being crazy, but how would Harry's actions destroy everyone? My guess is that the Reds don't want the end of the world, they simply want to be on top when it comes. Harry's early start to the war interferes with that plan and perhaps Ortega believes only the Red Court would have the power to control the outcome of the end times - an event or series of event that lots of players seem aware of that is imminent.

2) Martin believed Ortega was trying to delay the full war for another 20 years. It has almost been 20 years by our time, but lets say that Dresden is a few years behind us right now for various reasons. What happens in the next few years from Peace Talks? Book 20 for one and the end of the case files (maybe) and the beginning of the BAT. So at least according to Jim Butcher's original timeline for the series, why would the Reds want to wait until the BAT to start their war?

3) Nicodemus refers to his "schedule". This links with the whole BAT thing. I suspect he knew that the Shroud wasn't the "real" Shroud but he knew it had enough juice to do what he wanted.

4) Mordite is first introduced. This is not an accident.

5) Lord Raith is scared of Ortega. At full power I cannot imagine that Ortega would have been able to take a fully powered up Lord Raith. But I can understand why Lord Raith was afraid of Ortega in his weakened state. But I also wonder if this was more to do with who Ortega represented, Ariana for one, but perhaps the Circle? It seems likely that she was a part of it.

6) The connection between Maggie, Justin, Lord Raith, Ariana, Ortega and Nicodemus is hinted at over the books. And oddly enough but more subtly, Ebenezar.

7) Denarians are definitely stronger in this book. Specifically they all use more anti-magic via their Fallen.

8 ) Some odd continuity errors. Harry doesn't have his bracelet during the Duel with Ortega and he doesn't have it during the fight immediately afterwards. He even specifically notes that it is harder to create a shield without one, and then in the following paragraph when the shield fails he says his bracelet began to burn his wrist. Obviously the Churchmice-Marcone buyer plot point is retconned in Skin Games. And Sanya claims that Michael's armor will not stop bullets - yet we know that Charity put ceramic and kevlar in. And of course the eye color change. Initially the Fallen's eyes are orange, and the host has green. But then it reverses mid book, in the same scene! Forever after the Fallen have green eyes. And by Small Favor the glyph/symbol of the Fallen no longer appears on the forehead of the vessel.

9) Denarians release a contagion - a cocktail of every virus known to man and probably a few more that are unknown. However when reading this again I immediately thought of another thing: the contagion of the spirit spreading around the world. Nemesis.

10) In this book we learn that the forces of Hell get a power boost from destruction and mayhem. The plague will create an environment that makes them more powerful. We also learn later on that the Black Court of Vampires also gain power this way - see the WOJ on how the Black Court level up. Finally, a recent WOJ in response to a fan question about the Spanish Flu also implied that it was not merely a bad contagion, but was essentially a bio-weapon attack. My theory is that perhaps there is a link between the forces of Hell and the Black Court, perhaps they even work together. But more on that in another thread.

1080
DF Spoilers / Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« on: December 22, 2019, 10:51:30 PM »
So the Angels are the adults in your theory, as opposed to us being the infants?

I don't mind it at all. But I cannot decide if I think humans are part of the Angel life-cycle. Not anywhere near enough evidence. But still...the idea is intriguing.

This would reconcile the whole soul - free will problem. But I am not so sure that I can rule out Bad Alias' idea that Angels are limited because they have already made their choices, to some extent. Humans are the random element in the equation though...hmm I don't know.

Arjan - well I think you are both half-right and half-wrong. I think it is likely that mortal's choices and beliefs affect their afterlife. Hades seems to give this away when he says he doesn't get as many souls as he used to. And there are MANY belief systems out there. Perhaps you can even make some choices after you die too.

But the WOJ I referred to earlier contradicts the idea that Souls linger. Souls don't linger, they move on. But the imprint created by them is a ghost or shade. Hence how he was able to interact with his own ghost to defeat the Kravos the Nightmare after he "died". Harry in Ghost Story was an anomaly. He had "died" and crossed over, but was not "gone". However, he was more like Astral Projecting. And he had the help of an Archangel to do it. So I don't believe for a second that his situation was anything like "normal".

As for what Necromancers do...well we have mostly only seen them animate corpses and bind spirits (which are more like corporeal ghosts). We only have one act of "full" resurrection so far: when Kumori brings back that Mob hitter. And she used a lot of power to do it, and the whole process seemed very unnatural. He screamed the whole time and the paramedic described it "as though he was being brought back against his will". Maybe Necromancers can bring back a Soul from the afterlife. But I can imagine quite a few Angels who would be upset by that. Perhaps they can only do the recently deceased as once a being has "fully" passed on and is "gone" there is no option.

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