^^Yep. The paranet papers imply (while leaving wiggle room for Jim) that the Lord of the Outer Night were feeding on some old dark gods, but kept them alive and weakened, and by feeding on them boosted their powers considerably. However when the Red Court was destroyed it appears they may be rising again.

No, it is true we don't really know the origins of any but the Black Court. But they all appear linked by something - despite very different physiological, magical and social characteristics. There is an implied shared origin or link, something that links them closer than to other demons or other supernatural types. Hence why they are all part of the Vampire Courts. The current leading WAG is that they all are related to Outsiders or perhaps Drakul in some way, as he is the only known being to be linked to the creation of a Vampire Court.

SK - I suppose that's true, why would Mab accept such a being on her accords? But there are a few things to consider.

1. Drakul is one of the beings who could take Mab out - in terms of pure horsepower.
2. He isn't necessarily an Outsider, he could be the Devil. Or perhaps his trapped form is something else.
3. Consider Demonreach - strong enough to trap Mab, but only within his GPS coordinates. Outside of that he knows next to nothing and can do almost nothing. Maybe Drakul too is limited in such a way.
4. Jim says the reason many beings signed the accords is that she has millions of nightmarish creatures, is most powerful in Faerie and would hardly ever battle any of her real foes alone. But consider that some of those who have signed may have not been cowed into it, but wanted in. Or perhaps it is something of a stalemate. After all - the point of the accords was to balance power in the supernatural world (or that is the current stated reason anyway)
5. Mab was much more respectful of Anduriel than Nic. Which says to me that the Accords bind the Knights of the Blackened Denarius more than their Angelic doubles partners. She quite clearly wouldn't have a chance against an Archangel unleashed, however perhaps Drakul (if he is the Devil) would be much more limited. Consider two nuclear nations capable of wiping each other out, you can't go head on unless you are crazy. You have to try much more unconventional forms of warfare.
6. There was an old theory about TWG being a rebel or even the first Outsider, and there is also an old theory about Drakul being an Outsider that rebelled. Perhaps that is why Mab accepts Drakul.

As I have said above, Lucifer might need an ally if he were limited or vulnerable. At least in the Dresdenverse, his "whole thing" is more to do with an argument with god than not accepting divine authority. And why would he not sponsor the signs remotely if on earth? Why would he show up to a literal kidnapping? Perhaps he can't even leave his domain. There are many reasons why he could be Lucifer.

Noblehunter - true enough in the real world, but in literary terms it seems like something of a hint. But time will tell on that one.

Well I think there has been a healthy amount of debate on this subject.

There isn't much new evidence or new theories I have yet seen that cast more light on this.

I would contend that not everyone, perhaps not even most, consider Drakul to be an Outsider. At least when I suggested the idea I got a fair amount of disagreement at the notion. I would say the going theory is that he is a Dragon trapped in human form.

However as I have outlined before, I myself don't think that is the case. I do think Jim is deliberately being misleading when it comes to Drakul in book, and people are reading into somethings more than they should.

I suppose in response to your theory and kbrizzle's etc. I would ask: Why do you think that a dragon would have a son that would create a Vampire Court (or join one) in order to impress it? Why would a dragon (at least in the Ferrovax sense) even care about such small things?

Ferrovax type of Dragons were semi-divine guardians of the universe. I think they have more to do with Angels and that level of things than the mortal end.

And I challenge that the WOJ you cited is fairly conclusive evidence of them being Dragon related. It is only really conclusive that Drakul isn't really human at all - despite the original canon being that he was a scion, Jim later contradicts this.

Entirely unhuman could mean anything that isn't a carbon-based life form, or anything that shares very little DNA with us. Entirely unhuman likely means a being that is well beyond the human life-form, like an Angel or God or Demon. But we have no idea.

As I have said before, I think Jim's language in that sentence gives a bit of a hint to his origins myself.

Also just to correct you, the Outsiders have never specifically been called Dark Gods. They are almost always described as alien, something completely different from anything inside reality. They are more than mere demons, their thinking is so bizarre that it is beyond comprehension. In theory. The Old Ones, who are the rulers of the Outsiders (and may be Outsiders themselves - but this is a little unclear), were trapped. A race of demon gods who once ruled reality. Indeed it seems that while their foot soldiers (the Outsiders) were banished beyond the Outer Gates, the Old Ones were trapped here. Trapped.

Who else, indeed what else, was entirely unhuman that got trapped here? Sounds like a big nasty Outsider or Old One to me.

Besides I haven't seen anything that connects Dragons in general to Outsiders, directly or otherwise. Whereas the Black Court (and all Vampires shown so far) seem to have strong links to the Outsiders, particularly the Black Court.

I would also again like to point out that Michael's exclamation "Blood of the Dragon" was more like a curse or swearing, rather than a specific statement of origin. Indeed he never uses it again. And the old french word Dragon comes from the greek word Drakon and latin Draco, meaning sea serpent and large serpent respectively. Which is why the Devil in the Bible is often called both the Dragon and the Serpent, as the original translation was the same word. And often Christians both in the past and present call any sort of non-christian, unholy being a spawn of the Devil. And the Devil has been conflated with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden and with the Great Red Dragon of Revelation.

So my money is on him being an Outsider, or the Devil himself bound in human form.

Morris - are you seriously saying that you just ignore the WOJ and just invent your own canon? Do you also write fanfic? I mean seriously where does it end? Do you also just decide which parts of the series are canon to you as well and which parts are not? Just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue or go away. It is this very phenomenon which allows fake news to spread, religions to split and people just in general live in a bubble. Just accept what Jim writes isn't always going to be to your liking. He writes the books mostly for his own enjoyment, not ours really. We are just an added benefit these days, and that is just fine. Also, if that is your method for interpreting the series, just picking and choosing what suits, how can you expect anyone here to take what you say seriously? For what it is worth, I think you have plenty of excellent insights into Jim's writing and you seem to be a learned fellow with strong critical thinking skills. So I have no idea why you would just abandon reason like that.

Mira - I think you forget that Luccio's poor decisions whilst in her new body were all influenced heavily, and sometimes outright controlled, by Wizard Peabody. You can hardly blame her for that. Before she changed bodies she was well thought of and respected. Her main failing perhaps was that she, like most of the Council, became arrogant and had believed the White Council to be more powerful than it actually is - hence why the Red Court were able to do such damage against them, especially early on. That and the internal destruction of the Council and external manipulation of forces against them. Although one wonders if there is a time when the Council hasn't had the forces of darkness trying to destroy it.

And I agree, her new body had significant challenges. It is canon that it caused her to be unable to make any more warden swords, and that she wasn't as strong or as skilful magically as she was. Not only that, it made her kinder and more pliable and more distracted.

Morally wrong it might be to grab someone else's body, however I am not sure that is relevant to this discussion. For what it is worth, Corpsetaker didn't seem unduly hindered by the body he took, and I suspect (but I admit I don't know for sure) that the necromantic technique that he uses likely subverts the normal issues. Indeed, only once Corpsetaker had crossed far enough across the threshold between Life and Death did it mean that he needed a significantly powerful magical body. Almost like being born. Perhaps after being shot by Harry, the Corpsetaker lost a lot of magical power or essence and required a newly strong host to get it back. I suspect it is all to do with the same limits on Mortals that don't allow them to see the way Carmichael does in Ghost Story.

Not sure when the WAG first appeared, and I did consider that, but not every agent reveals themselves immediately. Take Martin for instance. Or Goodman Grey. I am sure Nemesis can work out even the basics of the art of deception.

Well I think there are two likely answers I think to this problem, but it would be interesting to hear Jim's opinion one day on it.

The first reason I think is that the Erlking might already have been within the borders of Winter at that point in time, or perhaps the moment Harry crossed into Faerie he was alerted to him (similar to how Lea would always know previously when Harry was in Faerie and show up - they are peers of a sort).

The second reason might be that attacking the Winter Wellspring touched something that affects all of Faerie in a way that goes deeper than the arbitrary boundaries of Summer and Winter. Perhaps all Fae are aware of such big things that happen to a certain degree. There is some precedent to this - whilst Mother Winter and Summer are opposites, all Fae answer to them beyond the allegiances they owe to the reigning monarchs. Jim has compared it to obeying gravity. I suspect that even one of the Mothers could wipe out the ALL other Fae all by themselves (not that they would) with very little effort. But they need the rest of the Fae to do the things that their constraints prevent them from doing - i.e. mostly interacting with the mortal world, amongst other things.

Of course, there is another reason. There is an old WAG that the Erlking is actually nemfected. This could mean he is able to do things outside of his normal purview. And perhaps the alert came from Maeve. But personally I think this is the least likely.

Yeah, like Drakul. But not some basic monster.

Bad Alias has hit on an important point here, and Mira is also right too. We are splitting hairs here.

However. PLEASE refer the my original post where Jim explains the difference between SOULS and GHOSTS. This isn't my speculation or someone else's. This is Jim explaining his ideas about the universe he has created. Use this to inform your theories please, as this whole thread is starting to become derailed into arguments.