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Messages - Wicked Woodpecker of West

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106
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 12, 2020, 04:27:03 PM »
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Also, I agree about Thomas fridging. I need him back ASAP.

Dunno. I somehow have a feeling he can stay fridged till BAT, because really I think Butcher had little idea what to do with Thomas overall.

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I am not going to engage about Murphy here but I agree Dresden repetitions are annoying. It's not the male gaze what bothers me, after all, Dresden is quite good describing males too. Michael, Sanya, Butters, Marcone. But he repeats too much and not only about people, I am really tired of him explaining us how soulgazes work. We got it the first time you told us, 20 years ago, and in PT/BG you explained so many times that it even lessened the effect of the Empty House Tragic Moment.

Yes. For instance we could get longer introductions and epilogues to series giving us better vision of what Dresden was doing between books - that's about as much place we needed. (And no Jim no sane reader would pick tome 16 of your series, and just run with it mindlessly. If he does he will notice something is wrong - like you can put list of all the books at the beginning or something).

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That is a problem with long running series. I read on Ilona Andrews blog that one reason she ended her Kate Daniels series is that it became more and more difficult to write original and new descriptions of the same recurring things.

DO NOT DESCRIBE THEM. Like really. Describe new things. Introduce new things.

107
DF Spoilers / Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« on: November 12, 2020, 04:22:58 PM »
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The body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)

Mab states that if Dresden soul would not return, she would lost a knight and Demonreach its guardian. So I doubt she would keep Dresden's body alive as handy empty soul for some Corpsetaker 2.0. Especially as her Winter Knight deal was with Dresden as a human being, not just mortal shell.

But she knew his soul is running around in spirit-body.

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Marcone is keeping the body of that girl in a coma alive. If the soul is already gone there is no hope to bring it alive again. She is dead.

You can keep cells of a body alive in a petri dish for decades. The person is still dead.

Seems to be. But I'd assume if body is recoverable - soul should stay around. With Dresden being wizard and necromancer to big, that was bit different, but even then Mab was angry at Uriel for letting Dresden roam around so... it seems it was somehow faciliated by Archangel.

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A shade is not a ghost. It is a spirit + soul, your complete non material self. It can go to church and visit holy ground.

There is a clear distinction. A normal ghost does not have the soul part.

Is there a clear distinction? I mean terms ghost, shade, spirit seems to be used quite wantonly in TDF series, which is tbh expected considering it's one of murkiest elements of reality, even many supernaturals know little about. I'd have to re-read to check if it's used in consistent fashion really.

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Not that easy if Harry was dead, the new owner would not invite him. It is just a body. That anchor is nowhere discussed.

I'm not so sure it's just a body. Body holds tremendous power. Blood matters. Bloodlines matters.
Luccio was forcibly forced to new body and it dimnished her willpower and control over magic despite her immaterial self staying the same.
IIRC Dresden has several flashes from his body during Ghost Story - which means he still is somehow connected to it.
Which can be explained both from spirit and soul sides of shade - I mean ghosts of the dead, soulless memories often dwelled around bodies, around remains - there was real power there-  that's how Dresden fried Bianca after all.

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As Uriel said you are a soul, you have a body. Uriel does not think the body that important anyway.

Dunno. Definitely he wanted to show soul is way way more important.

108
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 12, 2020, 03:02:43 PM »
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The male gaze bothers me not in the least. It exists and if any man tells you he doesn't look at women, he's a liar, given that he is heterosexual. And I assume that women have something similar going on with men. But it's almost never vocalized, even  internally. The whole fashion industry is built on the idea. He just does it to the point of exhaustion.

I agree. Problem is with overall formula of repeating everything. I have no problem with supernatural predators using sex-appeal as weapon - I think it's quite legit strategy. But Dresden is just repeating everything. I mean constant reminding to us how Butters is a short guy was no less infuriating than reminding how sexy Lara is.

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My point falls back on the only women who was written in the books outside that concept.  Murphy. As poorly as Jim treated her over the course of the books, she deserved a better end then what she got. A talented writer should be able to pull that off and get the emotional punch that he wanted.

I agree and disagree. I would like more random death in Battle Ground - in the end only named characters that fallen were Wardens taken in mid-boss fight, Murphy taken in another sort of mid-boss fight, and Hendricks. Way to scripted for my taste for this level of unholly mess.
As much as Murphy demise go - I think her failure as knight, connection to Odin and death were planned at least since Changes. And as such it's not a bad way - it gives option for Murphy powered up and back right for Apocalypse, while she would be not able to neither follow up, nor accept she cannot follow, and I think both her and Marcone's fates shows that time for mere mortals is over. Which is dark, but for me sort of expected resolution - compared to many stories when mundane man shall stand up to gods and monsters and prevail.

The problem is that now I think main reason Jim went for Dresden/Murphy romance was to push Dresden darker in this book. It's not her death was fridging - it's her relationship with Harry was fridging in my vision - put there just before her planned further death. Which is why Rudolph was used rather than any supernatural monster. Murphy was meant to die, but her death was staged too much. I do not think it's that bad overall - I'm always for random before poetic, but it sours her and Harry relationship.

As I said there should be extra book between SG and PT to let their relationship breathe, to let her deal and accept his new condition (and then of course run in battle anyway because BG is just too big to stay at home), and be something more than advancing things forward for bigger gut punch.

But with this "deserved better end" I honestly disagree. Death... death should not be cool. Even death of cooler characters.
And TBH it seems for most part deaths in Dresden Files rarely are COOL. Neither for villains nor for heroes.
Now I think Hendricks probably was only one so far who get classic like movie death.

I'd also notice that there is character that IMHO was fridged way worse than Murphy and with whom Butcher clearly has even more problem to do anything interesting - it's Thomas. Even his thread and whole Nemesis Xanatos Gambit in Peace Talks sounds more like afterthought, and literally nothing interesting happened with him since Turn Coat. And now he's in literal fridge. (And I won't talk he deserves better - but seriously Jim if you don't have idea what to do with Thomas maybe just kill him or smth).

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I agree, she did deserve better.  But perhaps that was the point?  Jim wrote that completely avoidable ending for her to piss us off.

I honestly think main reason was for another fake Dresden Going Dark tease.
I believe that's why he hooked them together right before Peace Talks after all this back and forth dance.
If it was some monster or even very dangerous mortal like Listen - the Dresden could have honest revenge without much of remorse afterwards. If it was random mortal with trigger finger who shot too fast (my preferable option - Murphy killed by honest to Earth people she meant to defend, just by accident and battle panic) he probably would stop himself. Rudolph was perfect as minor petty villain, as Draco-Joffrey of this series, to just make Harry really really ANGRY.

(My second favourite alternative solution - would be Murphy killed by debris, which would leave Dresden without any place to steam off).

But I think Jim predicted people would be angry - hence Harry and Sigurn talk in last chapter.
Where (my qualms about overall moral standards of Odin, Einherjar and Valhalla asie) Sigurn was of course quite right and it was sort of challenging many viewers perspective on unworthy death.

109
DF Spoilers / Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« on: November 12, 2020, 02:08:31 PM »
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I do not think so. Uriel was far too pleased when she got the southbound train. I do not think only good people have souls because what point would there be in going south?

Corpstaker did not loose who she was. That horrible person was corpstaker.

Maybe. But then even as pure spirit she would be a form of intelect. Black Court Vampires lack souls, and yet I think Uriel would be a happy of their destruction. I mean probably he should be more happy with destruction of soulless abominations, that with damnation of real soul even that of Corpsetaker.

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Details. The important part is the belief that the soul exists after the body is gone. There are good reasons to believe that the original jewish belief before christianity did not belief that and believed in the litteral ressurection of the dead to live here on earth.

Old Testament descriptions are quite murky in this regard, and even non-Christian Jews were quite divided in those matters.
(Now of course literal ressurection is still strong Christian belief - soul can exist without embodiment, but it is form of body, it should be a body and even souls of saints till ressurection are in quite imperfect state.)

But my point is sort of in another direction - my perspective is, as long as Dresden's body was alive then it was not really soulless as soul is essence of human life. So it's more Dresden body being alive that's my reason for claiming he was alive, not whatever his concioussness was doing. Corpsetaker's body was truly gone, and this link was broken even if she managed to bind her soul to her ghost to keep active in Nevernever.

Dresden was still sort of anchored to own body, just allowed to run around in his own ghost form it seems.


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It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return.  Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead.  His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it.  It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive.  More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key.  When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that.  Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.

Indeed.
Now Corpsetaker could be halfway there all along - I mean she found way to rip her soul out of her original body, and replace it with another (btw that can have interesting implications about Luccio in the future), she had to have some spiritual vessel for such trick - that allowed herself to keep stuck as real soul to her ghost rather than get southbound train from the get go.

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Unless Mab had given the body to another shade, do not waste it. She could have asked a good price for it and Bonea could get something out of it as well.

It would not be Harry but his body would be very much alive.

I'm not sure it could work that easily. What Corspetaker did was rare and unheard abomination of higher order.
And if Mab used some shade, not a real soul, result can be second Drakul for all we know - basically soulless body ridden by spirit - not designed to serve as a soul. I mean replacing human soul with another soul is terrible thing already - but replacing it with something not-human - oh, boy.

Also as long as body would stay alive - Dresden's soul would have anchor to world, and could possibly fight with whatever shade stolen his body.
I mean it was not Dresden's basketball height Mab was so hot for.

110
DF Spoilers / Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« on: November 12, 2020, 01:46:18 PM »
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There's a whole comic of them being the US team, Dresden gets Chicago, Carlos gets LA, Bill gets Texas, Yoshimo is the only one we don't have the assigned area for.

Maybe they left her with them, as they were war-squad together. Or they lacked local Warden.

111
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:43:39 AM »
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I agree, WWW. I don't have much problems with JB writing women, except for the fact that those sleeping with Harry are pretty much doomed (or mind-controlled).

Dresden's male gaze can be annoying, but that's I think more part of wider problem of Jim making constant repetitions of descriptions and so on.

112
DF Spoilers / Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:37:38 AM »
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Your own one in Harry’s case or another one in the corpstakers case if she had succeeded in Ghost Story.

In her case, I'm not really sure she was SOUL anymore, she seemed more like Nightmare a bit - ghost per se but with power and drive of dead man.

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That is dead in the definition of the dualistic world view which has a total distinction between spiritual and material. It is a worldview Christianity got from the Greeks and it is the worldview in the books.

Now TBH Christianity on dogmatic level rejects such dualism.
From Catholic perspective even if his concioussness was wandering around a bit - he was still alive overall.
If body is alive, soul by def. is not gone.

113
DF Spoilers / Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:34:16 AM »
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They're also the US team with the exception of Chandler.

Yukio is Japanese full and through. She even is not very fluent in English.

114
DF Spoilers / Re: Would You Be Shocked If....
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:33:40 AM »
Was he a child? I thought Vittorio was a nephew.

115
DF Spoilers / Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« on: November 12, 2020, 01:38:24 AM »
Nah. Mabs saved his biological life.
It's explained quite fine - Dresden was not a ghost in GS - he was disembodied soul.
At best we could call it ghost+ as he shared some qualities. But he kept being alive technically.

116
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 12, 2020, 01:37:18 AM »
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Thomas can bang whoever but Justine is unfaithful. Right.
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My comment was about how Jim has written Thomas. And more generally how he has written women.

While fact that too many women around Harry are hawt and he is way to aware of it all the time - is annoying quite a bit, i honestly cannot say I see those books going into attitude where man fucking around is chad, and women sleeping a lot s-word or something.

I mean he can write Thomas as "sexy vampire" for laughs, but ultimately Thomas powers and overall whampires powers are shown as creepy and unraveling humanity of their hosts. So I cannot really see much double-standards here... Too much thirsty geek fantasies maybe.



117
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 12, 2020, 12:23:33 AM »
Both options are probable.

In case of Thomas feeding - I mean he does not need to fuck his dinner. You just need maintain skin-skin contact to empower lust within victim and suck life-energy concentrated like that from them.

118
DF Spoilers / Re: Would You Be Shocked If....
« on: November 12, 2020, 12:22:00 AM »
There were 9 daughters overall. One son alive. Some others he killed. We can I think round it to about 18.
Still low yes.

119
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 11, 2020, 10:34:58 PM »
I mean - Thomas banging whoever would not dismantle Justine protection if we go with ritualistic sex explanation.
Intimacy between True Lovers estabilish Ward, but then  Ward is hold separately by both - so Justine has to break it on her own.

120
DF Spoilers / Re: Would You Be Shocked If....
« on: November 11, 2020, 10:29:02 PM »
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Very true, I had a theory a while back as that being the reason Raith got to be head of the family.  Yet, it is pretty rare, because the family isn't expanding, how long has Lara been around?  Why hasn't she had any kids?  The only vamp we know of that was really young aside from the baby, if Thomas is the father, was Inari.

I have feeling it's possible only men sire children, as pregnant whampire lady would have problem from two Hungers interacting.

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