ParanetOnline
McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Craig1974 on October 13, 2008, 12:52:36 AM
-
?
-
Lucky people that get to read books before they're released to the public, with the intent of finding what (tenative) public opinion will be.
-
I think the real question is: How can I become one?
Do you want bribes? (Considers: JB is internationally successful author. I am college freshmen. Strikes bribes, at least cash ones from the list)
How about a kidney? I've got this extra one that I really don't need.
I'll be your best friend. You can come to my birthday party. I'll make you various cakes and pies.
Please. Please please please.
;D
-
I think the real question is: How can I become one?
Do you want bribes? (Considers: JB is internationally successful author. I am college freshmen. Strikes bribes, at least cash ones from the list)
How about a kidney? I've got this extra one that I really don't need.
I'll be your best friend. You can come to my birthday party. I'll make you various cakes and pies.
Please. Please please please.
;D
You need to appeal to Priscellie, I think.
-
You need to appeal to Priscellie, I think.
I would, but I seriously doubt it would work.
Would it?
-
I would, but I seriously doubt it would work.
Would it?
Ya never know.
-
Pris is a late comer, she has no ability to approve them. ;)
It is entirely in Jim's hands.
-
Lucky people that get to read books before they're released to the public, with the intent of finding what (tenative) public opinion will be.
Close, but more accurately, we are like beta testers. Most authors have a small circle that reads their work, to find any contradictions, holes, logic flaws, missing text (as in, the author thought he did something, but never actually stated it), etc. Jim has taken this, with Iago's help, to new heights. It's brilliant.
Also, bear something in mind...while we read the chapters before you guys, YOU get to read them at your own pace. You don't have to stop at the end of every chapter and wait.
-
Close, but more accurately, we are like beta testers. Most authors have a small circle that reads their work, to find any contradictions, holes, logic flaws, missing text (as in, the author thought he did something, but never actually stated it), etc. Jim has taken this, with Iago's help, to new heights. It's brilliant.
Also, bear something in mind...while we read the chapters before you guys, YOU get to read them at your own pace. You don't have to stop at the end of every chapter and wait.
That just adds to the suspense. You're still lucky.....
-
and I doubt there is any shortage of loyal fans willing to volunteer for this job.
-
and I doubt there is any shortage of loyal fans willing to volunteer for this job.
You and me among them
-
Actually, I don't envy them.
I was furious about the length of time it took For Stephen King to actually finish the little cliffhanger ending of "The Waste Lands". It would be far worse to have to wait to get chapters that could change from JB.
-
Well Jim Butcher is way more consistant with the Dresden Files than Stephen King was with the Dark Tower.
JB's books are coming out yearly, Stephen King's Dark Tower was spread across his whole career.
-
Well Jim Butcher is way more consistant with the Dresden Files than Stephen King was with the Dark Tower.
JB's books are coming out yearly, Stephen King's Dark Tower was spread across his whole career.
Huh?
Dark tower came in halfway thru his career and had a long hiatus (I think it was when he went nuts after his incident with the drunk driver) . He then powered out the rest of the story fairly quickly, and closed it with a really stupid ending.
-
real quick look up
1975 was his first book salems lot
The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger (1982)
The Dark Tower II: The Drawing of the Three (1987)
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands (1991)
(six fricking year hiatus)
The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass (1997)
(accident)
The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla (2003)
The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah (2004)
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower (2004)
So I was wrong about the accident stopping production, we had a six year wait after the cliffhanger for whatever reason.
-
real quick look up
1975 was his first book salems lot
The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger (1982)
The Dark Tower II: The Drawing of the Three (1987)
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands (1991)
(six fricking year hiatus)
The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass (1997)
(accident)
The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla (2003)
The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah (2004)
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower (2004)
So I was wrong about the accident stopping production, we had a six year wait after the cliffhanger for whatever reason.
Well there you go- thats spread out over nearly twenty years.
I thought King mentioned the Gunslinger as one of his earliest works, even though he didn't publish it first. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't read the series, or anything about King since I finished the Dark Tower.
-
Try living thru those 20 years as your favorite author takes a vacation for six years after a cliffhanger.
-
Try living thru those 20 years as your favorite author takes a vacation for six years after a cliffhanger.
Admittedly I wasn't there for the entire 20 years, because I'm not even that old yet. But I was there for the six year break between WIzard's Glass and Wolves of the Calla.
Anyway, my point was JB doesn't, or at leas hasn't, take several year long breaks.
And I would love to be a beta reader for him.
-
Good for you.
Me? I'l wait till I get he whole book and re-read it as a whole a few times.
Altho, I did learn one thing about the JB books. I have to slow down and actually pay attention, because I missed details that actually incorporate to his endgasm.
Rereading fool moon right now.
-
:::waves hand around::: Pick me, pick me, pick me!!!
and yes, I am totally that girl who answers everything in class. But I try and make up for it by hiding in the back row. ;D
-
Dark tower came in halfway thru his career and had a long hiatus (I think it was when he went nuts after his incident with the drunk driver) . He then powered out the rest of the story fairly quickly, and closed it with a really stupid ending.
Oi ! Some of us loved that ending.
-
Oi ! Some of us loved that ending.
Really... why?
BTW, I'm serious, not snarky here. I really don't understand what was to like about it. Should this question be moved to the Media Favorites channel?
-
Actually, I don't envy them.
I was furious about the length of time it took For Stephen King to actually finish the little cliffhanger ending of "The Waste Lands". It would be far worse to have to wait to get chapters that could change from JB.
It's not so much a question of "chapters that could change" as it is of chapters that dribble in every now and then because the man's freaking busy. I've spent my whole life at least being able to sit down and devour a whole book in one to four sittings - you know, not having my reading interrupted at the end of every chapter - and chopping it up into a chapter every X number of days makes it a very unenviable form of reading.
This pretty much explains why I STILL always buy the book - the experience just ain't the same.
-
So in terms I can understand- it's like beta-ing a WIP, only one with better writing quality and a guarantee that said WIP will actually be finished ? :)
-
Yes. Unless it's Cool WIP.
-
Yes. Unless it's Cool WIP.
*whacks Shecky with rolled up newspaper*
Bad Pun.
Something else that should be said about the betas is they like to spread the pain around. Or as I like to call them teasing A-holes, bastards (with a British accent), etc. ;D. You get the idea. :D
-
Wrong. It was a very good pun, thank you.
Imagine this: You get that book you've been waiting for. You sit down with it... and get told you won't get to see anything past the first chapter until you go over that first chapter with a fine-toothed comb and spell out exactly what you like and why, what you don't like and why, and every little nuance that even seems a little off to you, not to mention typos, funky grammar and consistency issues, as well as too-frequent repetition or insufficiently-clear references. And do it NOW. Once you're done with that, you have to look at what the others saw and suggested and respond to that.
Now that everyone's finally done with that chapter, wait a few days - the next one will come sooner or later. Probably later, given how busy your fave author has been lately. And when that chapter comes, do it all over again.
In all honesty, as cool as it is to be able to help out my favorite author AND get a slow trickle of sneak peeks at what he's got in the works, this ain't no la-la tiptoeing through the spoilers all tra-la-happy-sunshiny. It's a voluntarily-taken obligation and one that has to be taken seriously. But most of all, that special joy of getting that new book in your own hands, when you can blow off work and set up shop at your favorite coffeehouse or diner-type place while you devour the book whole... it just ain't the same. But the benefits of being able to help out and see a little bit ahead more than outweigh that loss.
-
I am not doubting the difficult and much appreciated job of the betas Shecky. Those things that you outlined are the exact reasons I could never, ever do it. Whenever I see most errors I just automatically fix them in my head without even realizing it. (Example Ramirez->Rodriguez(sp?)->Ramirez, I know the name is supposed to be Ramirez and I just fix it in my head) In fact the only time I ever saw anything that jarred me I'm still not certain it was an error.
So while I poke at you guys in a tong-firmly-implanted-in-cheek fashion, I still appreciate your dedication to finding all these errors so the books read smoothly.
-
tong-firmly-implanted-in-cheek
Ow? Wouldn't that hurt?
-
Ow? Wouldn't that hurt?
Yeah. Considering I had a minimal brain fart and it should have been planted not implanted.
-
And implanting a tong in your cheek (where, you know, your tongue is supposed to be planted) would likely cause bleeding and other non-fun events.
-
Yeah. Considering I had a minimal brain fart and it should have been planted not implanted.
Also you said tong instead of tongue.
Also I think it would be cool to help out with your favorite books. To see that I could have an effect on a great piece of fiction, even if it wasn't my own, that would be really exciting.
-
Yeah. Considering I had a minimal brain fart and it should have been planted not implanted.
Part to take notice of is in bold. I couldn't remember how to spell tongue, and spell checker had no problem with tong. See if spell checker doesn't flag it I just a keep going.
-
Thanks for clearing that up. It's something I would be interested in.
-
Also you said tong instead of tongue.
Tongs, of course, being what Frank Tinatra tings.
-
Tongs, of course, being what Frank Tinatra tings.
And (in deference to some of the more inexplicable gagas in here) doesn't Barry Manilow write the tongs?
-
*headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk*
Okay. Enough. Yes I now remember tongue is spelled t-o-n-g-u-e. Like I said brain fart.
And I'm liable to never forget it either.
-
*headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk*
Okay. Enough. Yes I now remember tongue is spelled t-o-n-g-u-e. Like I said brain fart.
And I'm liable to never forget it either.
I don't know, with all the blunt trauma you've been inflicting on your skull lately, I'm betting you're gonna have a hard time remembering very much at all. ;D
-
I don't know, with all the blunt trauma you've been inflicting on your skull lately, I'm betting you're gonna have a hard time remembering very much at all. ;D
Now just a darn tootin' minute here.......
....
....
....
Ohhh, pretty lights. *snatches at air*
-
*headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk**headdesk*
Okay. Enough. Yes I now remember tongue is spelled t-o-n-g-u-e. Like I said brain fart.
And I'm liable to never forget it either.
;D Sorry. It's just too much fun. ;)
-
So here I go getting all serious and stuff –
I read pre-publication, pre-submission and work-in-progress manuscripts for several authors. It’s a lot of work with little tangible compensation.
Getting started as a beta reader was easy for me, but took a couple of decades. Some people I know got into it by hanging out with editors and offering to read their slush piles. I had certain expertise in some areas and offered do technical fact checking for some manuscripts. Another source of manuscripts is to hang out with writer’s groups. When I do that, before I accept any manuscripts, I try to pay attention to manuscript flow within the group – who asks for critiques, what is that writer’s response to those critiques, and what seem to be the general expectations within the group.
I don’t always live up to my ideals, but here’s a few of my Ideal Rules Of Thumb to start you thinking about building your own Beta Reader rules –
- I immediately establish what level of feedback is expected, such as; Cheerleader, Plot Points, Technical Fact Checking, Grammatical, Etc.
- I immediately establish when the feedback is due. Exact date, if possible also exact time.
- I give feedback in a written, methodical, easy to follow way. I discuss one problem at a time, even if there are several problems within the same section of writing, assuming the author will need a list to check off each issue as he deals with it.
- I structure my comments as – First, what didn’t work for me, and then why I think it didn’t work.
- I work hard to be uplifting and coherent while suggesting changes.
- I give feedback as a reader on the current version of the story including character arcs, character likeability, plot points and coherence of the plot idea.
- When I give feedback on technical details I cite specific sources. If the writer depends upon my established expertise then I spend sufficient time to make sure details related to that expertise are correct.
- I do not accept every manuscript.
- I critique every manuscript I do accept - EVERY SINGLE ONE.
- I decline to accept a manuscript when I do not have the available time to work on it. With me that’s generally 10 hours to read and 20 more hours to write notes. I expect to work in 5 hour sessions, not ‘a few minutes here and there’. That would be for a finished, 3rd or better draft full length novel.
- I decline to accept a manuscript if the writer or past a example of their writing was not to my taste.
- I decline to accept a manuscript where I have no expertise or interest.
- When I decline to critique a manuscript I do so immediately, in writing, and with no wishy-washy maybe-if-I-have-time verbiage.
- I give editorial feedback on marketing viability.
- I give editorial feedback on parallels with other current works.
- I give editorial feedback on parallels with other works over a wide range of date and location of the other work’s creation (i.e. “I like the character’s comments in Chapter Seven about it being a ‘Romeo and Juliet’ situation, but the plot line you are depicting is a lot closer to Kurban Said’s classic Azerbaijanian love story “Ali and Nino”, so much so that you may have plagiarism issues. Would you like to borrow my copy to check that out?”)
- I don’t rewrite.
- I don’t give content free value judgments (i.e. only a three word feedback such as “I love it!” or “I Hate it!”)
- I don’t expect or ask for financial, social or emotional compensation. I don’t ask the writer to pay me. I don’t demand a mention on the acknowledgement page, or expect them to show up at an office Christmas party I organize.
- I DO make it clear to the author(s) I work with that my name is not to be shared with others without my pre-approval.
- I don’t gossip about alternative chapters and endings after the book is published. I don’t gossip about a work in progress. I don’t get involved in the advertising.
- I don’t whine if my favorite bits vanish from updated versions or the published work.
- I don’t get my panties in a twist if my advice is apparently not used.
*sigh* I had a brain fart joke to close this with, but I forgot it. . .
-
Why don't you just go into full-time proofreading/editing for a publication house and actually make a living doing what you obviously like to do? ???
-
Why don't you just go into full-time proofreading/editing for a publication house and actually make a living doing what you obviously like to do? ???
There's not a huge income potential there. Professional writer P.N. Elrod offers her services at copyediting, and the price is surprisingly reasonable:
http://www.vampwriter.com/EDIT_RATES.htm
Elrod also offers links to other writers' resources in her FAQ, including an article from JimButcher.com participant Cathy Clamp regarding Publish On Demand and vanity press services, and other scams aimed at new, unpublished writers. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=418800&postcount=6
-
Heh. This little snippet especially amused me:
Here's a good one: "Our editors will carefully copyedit your manuscript for typographical, punctuation, and grammatical errors." That sounds a lot like running Spell Check and Grammar check in MSWord. Big deal. You can do that yourself for free.
Yup. And you can get the $50 translation software if you want to make your work multilingual. Both Word and so-called "translation" software blow goats; it takes a seasoned, sharp-eyed pro to do the job WELL. Word's document check won't blink an eye at such gems as "I learned against the door", and translation software can turn "The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak" into "The wine was good but the meat was spoiled".
No, neither field offers "huge" income potential here in the US; that much is true. Even a quality translator or proofreader who is recognized in his field won't make enough to retire by the time he's 50. But they do offer adequate salaries for competent people, and working in a field you enjoy more than makes up for the ulcers of many high-paying, low-humanity jobs. ;)
-
I don’t always live up to my ideals, but here’s a few of my Ideal Rules Of Thumb to start you thinking about building your own Beta Reader rules –
Those rules are the kinda thing I wish I could've gotten from my college writing classes. Especially cause that's pretty much how I critiqued the stuff I read.
I don’t give content free value judgments (i.e. only a three word feedback such as “I love it!” or “I Hate it!”)
Unfortunately, I got more of the three word feedback kinda thing. Along with stuff like, about the word brazier, "Is this a bra?" I mean, I know not everyone is familiar with fantasy, but really, there's this thing called a dictionary; it'll tell you exactly what a brazier is.
There's not a huge income potential there. Professional writer P.N. Elrod offers her services at copyediting, and the price is surprisingly reasonable:
http://www.vampwriter.com/EDIT_RATES.htm
Elrod also offers links to other writers' resources in her FAQ, including an article from JimButcher.com participant Cathy Clamp regarding Publish On Demand and vanity press services, and other scams aimed at new, unpublished writers. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=418800&postcount=6
Those rates are more for freelance copyediting. Full time professional job at a publisher would have a higher salary. I don't work for a novel publisher, just a puzzle publisher, but I have a pretty decent salary. But living off it, in or near NYC, would be somewhat difficult.
-
Pat Elrod is BIG into helping authors. She is harsh, she is brash, and she is mostly sharp edges...but it's always for your own good (or what she sees as your own good, anyways, and she IS good at it.)
And she HATES scammers.
While everyone needs to take all advice as a tool, and not gospel (anyone can steer you wrong)...trust the Pat.
-
Yep. Just don't trust the software implicitly. :)
-
I frankly admit I would be a terrible beta-reader of Jim's work -- too much of a cheer-leader and not enough fact checker, plot hole detective, or "jump-the-shark" scenario, and too much of a fan. Except for the grammar part -- but that's what an editor's for.
-
Not to nitpick or anything, but if Betas are "first readers", shouldn't they be called Alphas instead? Just a thought. ;)
-
Not to nitpick or anything, but if Betas are "first readers", shouldn't they be called Alphas instead? Just a thought. ;)
A couple of the authors I have read for refer to their chapter-by-chapter readers as alphas and their "sent the whole thing in through draft" readers as betas.
-
Not to nitpick or anything, but if Betas are "first readers", shouldn't they be called Alphas instead? Just a thought. ;)
Heh. I strongly suspect that this terminology weirdness was influenced by cross-domain drift. A "beta version" is a very preliminary version that's really just a live test with non-binding input from lots of volunteers; the "real" editing takes place after all of that input.
But if we're going to be the Alphas, I call for myself the title of "Billy". ;D
-
But if we're going to be the Alphas, I call for myself the title of "Billy". ;D
Georgia on your mind ?
-
Georgia on your mind ?
Nah. I grew up next to Georgia. Close enough for our gang.
-
There's not a huge income potential there.
Yep, that's the reason I don't go professional.
-
Yep, that's the reason I don't go professional.
How do you define "huge"? And where do you draw the line between loving your job but not hauling down monster bucks and GETTING the big paychecks but loathing going in every morning... and everything in between? I started out down a career path that would've ended up in the category of "wealthy", but after even just a little while in the field, I realized that the environment in which I was going to work was not something I could be happy with in the long run, no matter the remuneration. I've since gone into two fields that were each very low-paying by comparison, considerably more difficult work-wise and generally ignored or even frowned upon by the "right people" as being without worth (i.e., "it doesn't mean big pay"), but which were both work that I do not dread every day, that is genuinely worthwhile instead of upholstered parasitism (in my book, anyway) and that gives me some sense of doing what I actually enjoy.
In other words, if it's something you enjoy, then perhaps the "huge" money (I'd still like to see the numbers defined) won't end up mattering as much to you in the end. And if you play your cards right, you CAN make a reasonable income doing something you like; freelancers in my field can make $0.15 per word if they're specialized. Me, if I could make freelancing a steady income (i.e., a regular client base), I'd actually be making MORE, and while I'm not upper-class, I'm definitely well into middle-class. A comfortable income if it's handled right. And I don't resent the work, which is more than most people I've met can say.
-
Nah, Shecky...we've already decided you're Kirby and get the gorgeous girlfriend. Congrats!
-
Nah, Shecky...we've already decided you're Kirby and get the gorgeous girlfriend. Congrats!
Though hopefully you'll hold the magical mites. ;D
-
Though hopefully you'll hold the magical mites. ;D
Bite me, mite boy. ;D