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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: prophet224 on July 28, 2008, 06:50:09 PM

Title: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: prophet224 on July 28, 2008, 06:50:09 PM
This is a stalemate in my own head about a fundamental background aspect of the story I'm working on, and I'm hoping that getting some other people's thoughts will help.

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Premise:
Earth has discovered via experimentation that there is a barrier of some sort around the solar system.  The barrier blocks patterned transmissions (i.e. communications) and disables drive systems. 

Long story short, long ago humanity was out among the stars and was part of the galactic community.  We ended up at war with several of the major races, and were eventually beaten back to our home planet.  There the galactic community forced the opposition to hold off our extermination, as they value the rarity of intelligent life in the universe.  However, all of our technology was wiped out with nanites and we were knocked... <ahem> back to the stone age, basically.  We were nicknamed the "Destroyers" over the years for our ferocity and used to scare children at night. 

The story is about humanity's escape from the Barrier via a jump drive that tunnels through space instead of actually moving through space, and the politics of various alien races that wish they had helped us before, and intend to do so this time.  The first jump ship is also destroyed by a force stationed around our star, and of course Earth knows nothing about what has happened before.

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Question:
I originally wanted to set this in a few hundred years from our time.  The problem is that that requires at least some explanation of how this actually fits into our own known timeline.  However, I don't really want to make this into an Atlantis story.  That shouldn't be the focus.

The other option is to make US the ones that get out and fight, and have the story set several THOUSAND years down the road, and learning about us.  This would remove the need for explanations, but create the need for a whole new world, set of governments, military structure, economics, etc.

Both of these are attractive, but I particularly like the idea of it being in our time. 
What do you think are the pros and cons of both approaches?  I'd certainly appreciate any other thoughts as well.  Thank you. -Matt
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 29, 2008, 01:18:24 AM
how about; we find the secret of stardrive A within the next ten years.  Stardrive A is fast enough and cheap enough, and we've found enough interesting looking extrasolar terrestrial planets, for it to make economic sense to get out there and exploit them, so we go out there, and the people who do so are, oh, rapacious corporate types, or manifest-destiny militarists, people who will see this as an opportunity and not take seriously the notion that non-humans might have any preferences in the matter, or give us a hammering if they objected, until they do. 

[ I'm presuming, if the aliens have tech enough to knock us back to the stone age, then they have tech enough to exterminate us if they wanted to. Therefore they don't want to and are letting us live. Because they are so much nicer than we are, if we become their bogeymen as you describe. ]

Knocked back to the Stone Age with bits of modern tech lying around, maybe even the odd library or two, all you need for a plausible recovery in a few centuries is one reasonably successful tech-focused society - who can go ahead and rebuild a civilisation in just a few hundred years, srpad out into the solar system again, and end up discovering stardrive B and giving you your story.

If you need a few thousand years to pass in the outside world, have there be a time-slowing component to the barrier.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: prophet224 on July 29, 2008, 01:02:34 PM
Well, definitely some of that could be a story idea.  That said, the original humans are actually scapegoats, who, though very fierce and successful in the military sense, didn't actually start the original war anyway.  That's been covered up all along, however, and only one race (and maybe some high-ranking officials elsewhere) know the truth. 

Your presumption is quite correct, that they could have exterminated us, and they nearly did, only refraining because genocide is the one "unforgiveable sin", if you will, in galactic society.

In the original idea, their nanotech wipes out EVERYTHING technological and they kill off most of the population, so we are literally thousands of years rebuilding. 

That said, if I go with us being the original humans, I can certainly do the several hundred years thing.

It's not so much a question of the how, as that is part of the fun of writing.  The question is which. :)  Thanks for the response!!
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: Buttersfly on July 29, 2008, 04:32:52 PM
I like your premise; it sounds like a book I'd want to read.

I'd go with the whole world instead of just the US.  Current events make it hard to project US global dominance lasting in its present form through the next few weeks, much less the next few centuries.  Global power seems to be shifting to China and India, which would make an interesting alternative to the US, but might necessitate getting an M.A. in Asian Studies.  My advice, again:  go with Planet of the A--holes.  Things change.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: jaezon on July 29, 2008, 05:04:46 PM
Just making sure I have a cocuple of tidbits right.
The humans coming into the jumpdrive age (albeit their 2nd) is going to "escape" or solar system.
They have no knowledge that this is their 2nd coming, or of the beings that lie beyond the barrier.
Former allies of humans will approach the newly arrived generation and again try to aid them.

Are all of those points valid?
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: prophet224 on July 29, 2008, 08:21:04 PM
Buttersfly:
Thanks. :)  Not sure about the whole world comment.  It really does center around the world as a whole.  In fact, in the current version, the first jump ship (the one that unfortunately gets destroyed) is a multinational vessel but is commanded by a Japanese man.  I agree about the state of national power.

Jaezon:
1. Correct, though neither the first round of humans nor the aliens ever developed the jump drive.  It was a "necessity" thing.  Most races use something similar to the Alcubierre Metric. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_metric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_metric)
2. Also correct.  They are desperately hoping that they aren't alone in the universe, and optimistic about meeting other beings, finally.  Until they are attacked right off the bat, of course.
3. Correct, though originally the others weren't "allies" so much as "cheerleaders".  The first time around their help might have made a difference, but they didn't really help.

So, do I smell a "this has been done"? :)  If so, I haven't read it, but either way, much of writing is about your own personal take on things.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: jaezon on July 29, 2008, 08:56:17 PM
Everything's been done somehow, I'm sure, but that doesn't keep inspired author from making it their own and just plain being awesome.  And no, I haven't read it, either.  I just wanted to have my facts straight.  :)
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: prophet224 on July 30, 2008, 01:24:08 AM
LOL. Thanks then. :)  So, thoughts?  Obviously if WE are the 2nd time around, then there is some explaining required... I think it CAN fit in the timeline of how long we've been around, assuming all old technology has been eaten, and given that humanity and our technological development is such a SHORT period of time as far as the earth is concerned. 

Nevertheless, there are positive points to making us the first round too, and developing a new world from scratch.  This allows the odd tidbit from our era to pop in as well, which can be fun, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: OZ on July 30, 2008, 01:44:12 AM
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by an Atlantis story. Do you mean you don't want there to be traces of an ancient civilization that was once destroyed? If this is the case then just say that the present earth was not the one we first developed on. The aliens placed us on it as a zoo or prison planet. We never had the sophisticated tech on this planet because they had taken it from us before they ever put us here.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: prophet224 on July 30, 2008, 01:40:48 PM
Basically I just mean the Atlantis... trope, for lack of a better word. 

The lost city of Atlantis is out there somewhere... the pyramids are landing sites for alien spaceships, the world's religious texts actually describe alien visitations, etc.

Focusing on these types of things rather than the actual plot is a problem.

It's similar to the "stranger in a strange land" sort of trope:
Man from the past brought to the future and then the story focuses on how they think everything is weird.  Think "Encino Man", Bill & Ted, etc.  Usually at least somewhat humorous, poking fun at their reactions to modern everday things.

Zoo/Prison: Not a bad idea... will have to think on that more.  I've considered it but maybe it needs more consideration. :)
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: jaezon on July 30, 2008, 02:08:01 PM
Quote from: prophet224 on July 30, 2008, 01:24:08 AM
LOL. Thanks then. :)  So, thoughts?  Obviously if WE are the 2nd time around, then there is some explaining required... I think it CAN fit in the timeline of how long we've been around, assuming all old technology has been eaten, and given that humanity and our technological development is such a SHORT period of time as far as the earth is concerned. 

Nevertheless, there are positive points to making us the first round too, and developing a new world from scratch.  This allows the odd tidbit from our era to pop in as well, which can be fun, if nothing else.

Personally, I think I appreciate the 2nd go-round more.  And I don't think you would have to explain a whole lot.  In certain settings, readers are just ready to believe.  They are ready to make sense of it for you.  Take JB's Codex.  While some people pretty well know
(click to show/hide)
, some would argue that it could be
(click to show/hide)
  No explanation really required and some people prefer it that way.  It leaves them even more places to take their imagination (or argue about on forums  :D).
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 30, 2008, 02:39:51 PM
Quote from: jaezon on July 30, 2008, 02:08:01 PM
Personally, I think I appreciate the 2nd go-round more. 

Fwiw, there's a sizable audience for whom any "we are the second go around" ancient astronauts stuff will kill the book dead; because far too many of the people actually advocating that sort of rubbish in the real world from von Daniken on lie, misrepresent their data, and could not assemble a logical argument to save their lives.

Quote
Take JB's Codex.  While some people pretty well know
(click to show/hide)
, some would argue that it could be
(click to show/hide)

Not if you know anything at all about Roman history.  (Even if you are willing to make the mental contortions necessary to make all the geography fit.)
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: jaezon on July 30, 2008, 03:02:14 PM
Apparantly I don't know much at all about Roman History, and don't general care about the lay of the land to have to make it fit.  I didn't really care where it was happening, as long as it was happening.  Terry Goodkind (Sword of Truth novels) said one of the worst things he did for his books was include a map b/c people focus too much on the geography and takes the focus from the story.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 30, 2008, 05:37:09 PM
Quote from: jaezon on July 30, 2008, 03:02:14 PM
Apparantly I don't know much at all about Roman History, and don't general care about the lay of the land to have to make it fit.  I didn't really care where it was happening, as long as it was happening.

Fine if you are writing just for yourself; but if you don't care one way or the other, then books with consistent geography and history won't do you any harm, and they'll make a lot of positive difference to a lot of other readers, so why not make the effort.

Quote
Terry Goodkind (Sword of Truth novels) said one of the worst things he did for his books was include a map b/c people focus too much on the geography and takes the focus from the story.

Well, it would have helped if he had not made the supposed scale of his maps and the time people take to travel on them drastically inconsistent.. In the first book, at least; I could not stomach reading any further.

I don't like maps, in general, because they are a viewpoint issue that's wrong for many sorts of story.  But they can work if they are done right and appropriate to the story.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: Fade on July 30, 2008, 05:44:54 PM
why does earth have to be our home planet? maybe this is where we were forced back to? a much newer planet? this way it fits with the time line.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 30, 2008, 06:06:09 PM
Quote from: Fade on July 30, 2008, 05:44:54 PM
why does earth have to be our home planet?

Because there's an awful lot of historical, archaeological and biological evidence you have to handwave away to make things be any other way.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: prophet224 on July 30, 2008, 07:03:39 PM
Yeah, prison planets and such are difficult because of all the evidence, plus the genetic similarity to other earth life.

That said, it's pretty easy to drop in an extra few thousand years of development in there somewhere.  When you are looking at a species lifetime of 150K years or so, missing 4-6k years near the end isn't that tough.  Also, since we don't know what finally sparked the BIG CHANGE (other than, perhaps, population density?) to where we as a species are now, it's reasonable to throw in that it actually happened a few thousand years earlier.  Suspension of disbelief is easier, too, if it's not just "we forgot about these aliens" but actually "A huge and powerful galactic society actively destroyed our earlier society and worked to hide it from us".   :)

At least I think it's easier...
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: The Corvidian on July 31, 2008, 02:40:35 AM
You could also take the tac that we were canon fodder for another race. They were wiped out, and the reminants of their cannon fodder, our ancestors, were imprisioned on earth.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: jaezon on July 31, 2008, 10:32:57 PM
What happens to the historical records after becoming Earthbound again?  Were all records by that time kept electronically and therefore lost to the nanites?  Once we hit a certain point in technological advancement, we seem to skyrocket and you may not need as much time as you think.  I think our advancement is significantly exponential in this regards.

Quote from: neurovore on July 30, 2008, 05:37:09 PM
In the first book, at least; I could not stomach reading any further.

Sidenote: Finished all ten or whatever novels, and totally not worth the time I wasted.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: OZ on August 01, 2008, 01:52:21 AM
Quote
Sidenote: Finished all ten or whatever novels, and totally not worth the time I wasted.

I liked the first few but I quit reading when I felt they bogged down. I don't mind a short series (trilogy) which is a novel in parts. Long series must have individual plots within each book that are tied up. One of the things I have liked about TDF, an overarcing plot for the whole series but individual plots that are tied up in each book.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 01, 2008, 02:10:17 AM
Quote from: jaezon on July 31, 2008, 10:32:57 PM
What happens to the historical records after becoming Earthbound again?  Were all records by that time kept electronically and therefore lost to the nanites?  Once we hit a certain point in technological advancement, we seem to skyrocket and you may not need as much time as you think.  I think our advancement is significantly exponential in this regards.

Sure, but the archaeological record isn't going to go away just because most records are on electronics; and you're not going to convince me the future has no sysadmins paranoid enough to make off-site hardcopy backups.
Title: Re: Looking for thoughts to break a stalemate
Post by: prophet224 on August 01, 2008, 01:59:45 PM
So perhaps the question is: How much destruction and damage can a sufficiently advanced civilization do to another technological civilization who is basically at their mercy?

I think that there is a certain "critical mass" to technological societies that allows a pretty darn sharp growth... there doesn't need to be that much time.  Looking around, it seems that as long as you don't try to make it the focus of the story, the concept passes pretty well.  Look at Niven's "Known Space" universe.  Thanks all, I really appreciate all of this discussion!  It has helped! :)

Side note: Read a fair portion of the books and got fed up around about 6.