ParanetOnline
McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Adam on May 04, 2008, 03:59:46 AM
-
I'm at about 70,000 words in a story, and one person who read my first chapter suggested I should begin with conflict. Personally I prefer setting the scene first, then introducing some conflict or problem. What are your thoughts on this? Should a story leap immediately into some conflict to grab the reader's attention?
I was just checking through some of my favourite books, and some books considered classics which I don't much care for, and most seem to set the scene first, give a little picture of the world and the people, before the bad guy breaks down the door and starts shooting/stabbing/whatever. On the other hand, I'm aware that publishing has a higher turn-over today than when Sense & Sensibility or The Hobbit were printed, and that the pool of customers/readers is larger and includes more people with a shorter attention span.
-
I suppose it's really a matter of taste. I prefer the "taste of the world" approach, but sometimes I find that the world was more interesting than the story, and find myself wishing for more of the "everyday life" aspects rather than the Official Main Story. I'd say a balance is required, a good, vibrant world is a must-have, but the story and characters must be strong enough that they aren't washed out by it.
-
On the other hand, I'm aware that publishing has a higher turn-over today than when Sense & Sensibility or The Hobbit were printed, and that the pool of customers/readers is larger and includes more people with a shorter attention span.
More than that, the normal writing style in Jane Austen's day isn't remotely like the normal writing style now. There have been some recent (and bad) changes in the publishing industry that make things a bit different from the 1970's, but of course they're different from 200 years ago.
I like the way Clive Cussler handles the beginnings of his books: he puts in a brief prologue with the historical material and then starts chapter 1 with the hero doing something active (though that doesn't always mean an action scene). This approach seems to work for a lot of authors. If you need to infodump though, I think that's better handled after we have some idea who the characters are and why we care.
-
There's big conflicts and small conflicts. Not just your first but every scene needs some conflict, that is your point-of-view character must have a scene goal, something s/he wants to achieve in this scene, and some other character must have an opposing or conflicting goal (or there must be some other obstacle to overcome for the hero.)
Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice is full of conflict in every scene. Many people only think of physical struggle when they say or hear the word conflict, but it can be subtle. Just put two people with different agendas in one room and you have conflict or tension.
Hope this helps.
-
Would it be acceptable if I posted the first chapter here, for some feedback?
-
Adam, if you hope to have your novel published one day, you shouldn't post any part of it at an open internet forum. Something to do with copyright. Publishers are really fussy about these things. Better ask if someone would like to review your chapter via email, or you might want to join a workshop like OWW or critters.
-
What do you mean by scene setting?
Something related to the specific conflict in your story should happen in the first chapter. Take Butcher - at the end of the first chapter, Dresden has nearly always talked to Murphy about her needing help or run into a client who wants his help. Sometimes both. Or take a couple epic fantasy authors, both of whom have managed to become #1 NY Times bestsellers:
Robert Jordan - the prologue to The Eye of the World establishes the threat of the Dark One, that taint of madness in saidin, and the death of the last Dragon. At the end of the first chapter, Rand has glimpsed the Fade that will burn down the boys' village, leading to their flight until they reach the Eye of the World at the book's end.
George RR Martin - At the end of the prologue of A Game of Thrones, you've seen the Others, who will probably be the Big Bad for the series. At the end of the first chapter, you've run into the dead mother direwolf with the antler in its throat, foreshadowing the end of the book and the more mundane struggle of the series.
Or take Shakespeare - at the end of the first scene of Romeo and Juliet, you've been introduced to the conflict between the Montagues and Capulets, as well as the fact that Romeo's just had his heart broken and his friend is trying to find him a new girl. The first scene of MacBeth is very short, but it lets you know that the witches are going to meet him. You have one more short scene talking about loyal MacBeth and MacDonald, and then by the third scene the witches have planted the seed of treason in MacBeth's head. All this in the first ten minutes of the play.
If "setting the scene" means just worldbuilding, it's probably not good enough. You have to let the audience know what the book will be about as soon as you can, or else you're just giving a bunch of useless information--or if it's not useless, something you could probably explain later, as it becomes relevant. Stories are about conflict. Begin at the beginning. That means start at the beginning of the conflict, giving at least a hint of what Butcher calls "the story question." Of course, start of conflict can give you some room. It can be an argument, a prophetic dream, a violent clash, a message relayed to your main character, etc. As long as the plot's in there somewhere.
-
The way I have it now is the story starts with setting the scene and introducing the protagonist, then the pawn/tool of the Bad Guy comes in at around 1800 to 1900 words. The first chapter runs about 6500 words. However, the opinion mentioned in the first post was that I should skip the first 1800-1900 words and begin with conflict right off the bat. That doesn't seem right to me.
-
It's impossible to know without seeing what you've actually written. I second the recommendation to find some kind of workshop to give you feedback.
-
Yep, will do.
-
I think it depends on how you want to set the tone for the rest of the novel. If you're going for overall something dark and dreary, then I'd start slow and build the tension. If you want an action packed story, then drop the reader right into some action to get the blood pumping. If you're going for romance, throw out the purple prose and get romantical. If your story's supposed to be funny, then get on with the goofy first thing. This is the first taste of your novel, and you want to make it a good one that the rest of your novel follows well.
-
I intend to avoid romance, as every girl I've ever known had informed me in no uncertain terms that I'm a complete idiot about anything even vaguely related to emotions.
No, it's mostly mystery, action, fun things like that.
I've been reading through Jim's blog entries about story construction, setting out the plot points, the big swampy middle, et cetera, and I'm actually finding it very helpful. Simply establishing the major points like that has indeed done half the work for me. Thanks muchly.
-
I intend to avoid romance, as every girl I've ever known had informed me in no uncertain terms that I'm a complete idiot about anything even vaguely related to emotions.
What better way to explore your emotions, however? :-)
-
i don't think you need to scap the whole part of the story for action at the beginning, but i feel that a little action at the beginning is always a good thing. even if it is mundane action that has NOTHING to do with the main antagonist, showing that your character has guts and/or is a troublemaker and/or is crazy... helps the reader get into the book quickly, and shows a lot about your main character.
personaly i am far more interested at the beginning of a book about the main character than i am about the world (s)he lives in. that comes later.
i also suggest that you stop worrying about how many words are in the book and focus on a good story.
after putting in some little character entry action for the first chapter, you can then move on to everything else that you have already writen.
hope that helps.
-
I intend to avoid romance, as every girl I've ever known had informed me in no uncertain terms that I'm a complete idiot about anything even vaguely related to emotions.
I'm in the same boat Adam. However, I've begun a series of romantic comedies inspired by my own experiences with women. So far i'm happy with it.
I think there needs to be conflict at the outset of any story. But that doesn't have to be an action scene. The first sentence of my romcom is the main character waking up half an hour late for work. This creates conflict, as well as paints a pretty immediate picture of the type of character this guy is. Then I throw in some integral details of the scene as he throws himself together and flies out the door - messy room, cluttered car with a broken back window, etc...
I think that you can set the scene and the tone, while showing the most important aspects of the character (ie, he's always late for work, he's a slob, yadda yadda) and use an immediate conflict as a vehicle for those things. Mix it all together. Give us a sampling of every aspect that the book has in store for us.
-
Hey Adam,
Probably best to cut to the pros:
- Check out Jim's writing blog, good stuff and entertaining
- I think Bob gave us this site, writingxcuses.com listen to all of them, yep all of them. again great stuff, it's free, and its entertaining.
- Workshops are excellent and worth the money, but check 'em out first.
From what I can tell there comes a point where you have to face the bear in the corner (your insecurities) with a whip and chain and make your own calls. From what I've discovered, your first chapter will suck and will suck for sometime. That shouldn't keep you from writing, writing, writing. Don't let people distract you from writing to completion the first draft. It's a private battle of a very long war. You have plenty of time to figure out that first chapter later.
Don't let well minded idiots read your stuff. Idiots are friends and family that love you, but who can mess with your head big time in innocent ways. They'll blow up your stuff as the next Heinlein, or they'll make loving kind statements that, if you followed up on, would completely change your storyline. You'll start sweating it out trying to fix something on a blasted first draft. First drafts are supposed to suck--grammer, continuity, weak characters the whole horrid uglies.
What I would have someone check for you is your consistancy on Point of View. Screwing POV up can take a lifetime to correct later. If you don't have that dead set and right on, later drafts will be mindboggling, toss it into the trash, discouraging.
Finally world building vs action... First book, I see no way to get past a house editor or an agent without action or really incredible dialog. If you want someone to publish it, I mean. You get 2, 3, 5 pages in front of an agent, it can't be lovely gentle world building. Now put in action, snappy dialog, AND world building and you've got something that has a chance to last 2 minutes on a desk before it hits the slush pile. STILL YOU DON't write that first! You get the blasted rough draft done. By the time you've lived in that world long enough to do that, you've got the knowledge and skill hopefully to put together a supercharged, unique, agent devouring beginning.
I've been ranting. Now back to my own writing.
And before I make a complete fool of myself. Some friends and family are wonderful readers. Especially if you're like the actress that questions why she is doing---toss a famous face into a mall and it's got to build up the ego. There is a lot of value in that. In fact some friends and family make excellent critics, especially if you have a spouse who will read pages throughout the whole process. That could be invaluable....or grounds for a divorce I suspose. :-)
-
To add my 2 cents:
Look with deep suspicion on anything you put in just because the reader needs to know it. As the author, you need to know it. Your main character might not need to know it, most of the people he's bugging with questions might not need to know it, and the character who DOES know it will act on that knowledge and let it leak somehow or another.
On the opposite hand, don't keep secrets about what the POV character thinks he's doing. If he's sitting around drinking because he's trying not to think about how he just was dumped, that's what he's thinking about and it should at least be hinted at.
So from this argument, you could open with a lot of description of messy apartment, beer cans, and the guy opening another one and pretending he's just watching TV while you clue in the reader with some line like "I hadn't watched the Friday lineup for months, since Sue always wanted to go barhopping on Friday - let's not think about Sue." But pretty soon you need to introduce the current problem that he's going to start dealing with.
If the problem is that he's in the witness protection program and his cover is right now being blown you do NOT have to open with any history about that. He's sitting there trying not to think about Sue when there are gunshots in the street and he reacts from what he already knows - and he'll be explaining things by his assumptions.
-
Look with deep suspicion on anything you put in just because the reader needs to know it.
On the other hand, you have to play fair with the reader and tell them everything they need to know for your story to make sense.
Your main character might not need to know it, most of the people he's bugging with questions might not need to know it, and the character who DOES know it will act on that knowledge and let it leak somehow or another.
Which is just a more subtle and indirect way of letting the reader know it.
On the opposite hand, don't keep secrets about what the POV character thinks he's doing. If he's sitting around drinking because he's trying not to think about how he just was dumped, that's what he's thinking about and it should at least be hinted at.
Depends on the POV you are using. Camera eye that shows nobody's thoughts is a legitimate approach.
-
I intend to avoid romance, as every girl I've ever known had informed me in no uncertain terms that I'm a complete idiot about anything even vaguely related to emotions.
People's emotional wiring does vary rather a lot. I avoid writing about romance, in general, because I think the mainstream Western cultural notions of romance are not a positive model to present, and have some really unpleasant failure modes - how much romantic comedy behaviour would come across as stalking if you did it in real life ? I try to play up the importance of good solid friendships becuase I think they are way too often subordinated to rmantic interests in unhealthy ways. Write what feels real to you and it will be valid, whether it matches with the experience of the girls you know or not.
-
From what I can tell there comes a point where you have to face the bear in the corner (your insecurities) with a whip and chain and make your own calls. From what I've discovered, your first chapter will suck and will suck for sometime.
There are a lot of good successful writers out there giving good writing advice. Jim. Stephen King. Harlan Ellison. Patricia Wrede. Tim Powers plans everything down to what happens in each individual conversation before setting one word of story down; Steven Brust makes it up as he goes along and cuts the boring or stuck bits later. It's worth looking closely at the advice lots of people give, because there's more than one way to be a successful writer, and trying to adopt the entirety of any one person's method uncritically has the potential to get you into trouble if your method is fundamentally different.
Joel Rosenberg says every writer has a million words of crap to get out of their system before they produce anything worth writing, and I think he is more or less right on that. I certainly noticed a difference when I passed that point.
-
Joel Rosenberg says every writer has a million words of crap to get out of their system before they produce anything worth writing, and I think he is more or less right on that. I certainly noticed a difference when I passed that point.
Brilliant. ty for sharing!