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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: fjeastman on September 03, 2006, 04:53:12 AM
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I'm curious about the opinions of the authors on the boards as to vampires in current popular contemporary fantasy/supernatural stories.
How many of you, working in those genres, use vampires in your works? Why?
Why do you think there seem to be so many out there? Especially newer stuff.
And, how many of you are, or can think of, authors currently using vampires but NOT in a "Sexy/Hot/Sensual" role? If you're working in the genre, why have you chosen to go the way you have with "them"?
--fje
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I think vampires are in over-use right now. If I were going to use any contemporary monsters in any of my stories (and why should I when I can make up my own?), I'd use werewolves.
Vampires appeal to people because they are sexual and passionate, yet completely in control--and since most people are dull, passionless and unable to control their lives, a vampiric existence can seem very romantic to them. However, I often feel like I'm too much in control of myself, and what I long for is my appetite to be unleashed--so I prefer werewolves.
I think we want to see ourselves in our monsters for some reason. Probably because it's cathartic.
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I think vampires are in over-use right now.
Agreed, though I feel the same way about werewolves and shapeshifters at the moment. I don't think it's necessary for a character to be inhuman in order to be inhuman, if that makes any sense, and my favourite type of vampire is the "regular guy" variety of P.N. Elrod, or of Forever Knight. (Though I may just be prejudiced in favour of cops and private investigators. :D )
I'm writing fantasy in a world where vampires could potentially exist because there other magical creatures, including demons, but I'm choosing not to use them because I prefer to keep everything a little more on the mundane side. That is to say, mages are commonplace and aren't given much in the way of special reverence, psychics get bad press, dragons run pubs and even demons need accountants. Vampires tend to draw too much attention to themselves (not for nothing are they leeches) and stand out from the crowd, which would change the emphasis of my books in ways I don't want.
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And, how many of you are, or can think of, authors currently using vampires but NOT in a "Sexy/Hot/Sensual" role?
ME! Well, me and my co-author. Our latest series has EVIL vampires in a paranormal romance setting. Vamps (called The Thrall) are the bad guys--sentient parasites with a "killer bee" hive mentality that attach to a human's spinal cord. We've gotten more than one "ICK!" from our readers, while others cheer our new concept! ;D It's called "Touch of Evil," and the sequel will be called "Touch of Madness."
We decided to go with a new twist on the vampire myth because it felt like "traditional" vamps had been overdone. The ones we've done are in an alternate reality, where they evolved alongside humans. They're right there at the top of the food chain with us. None of the "legendary" stuff work on them, of course. They attach to only the most healthy humans and are very short lived (because how long can a parasite grow inside the skull before it runs out of room?) Regular humans can't spot them at all. They can be out at all hours--although they PREFER night. Garlic, silver, crosses--nope. But break off their teeth? Yep! It's a central nervous system shock. And you can kill the human Host and kill the parasite (which brings up all sorts of ethical issues in the world. Does a human Host who's been "infected" with a parasite deserve to die?) Etc., etc.
I think there's lots of ways to improve or skew the vampire myth, saving some elements and rewriting others. I too find the whole "sexy, leather wearing guys" to be tiresome. I still read some, but eventually I'm afraid I'll get tired of it.
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They'll exist in my books, because most of the things that go bump in the night exist in my books, but they're not the sexy kind ;)
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I have a single vampire, but he's not really a vampire, because I, like everyone else, am sort of getting tired of them! I'm guessing within the next decade, most new series on the market will not have vampires anymore, because everything's sort of tilting the other way in response to the overload of vamps on the market now.
There's a lot of things in mythology that are supposed to suck blood, but otherwise don't act like the Western vampire at all. Spirits, beasts, demons, etc. My "vampire" is one of those. He's actually a faerie creature, and it's not the blood drinking that's the problem with him; it's the cold iron in his skin that freaks his faerie relatives out. And although he is technically dead or transformed, his magicalness has to do with time/the future more than death and blood and night.
As a side note, I also predict that werewolves will go "out of style" soon, unless a series emerges that is really the defining series for werewolves (I've read a few with werewolves in them, but they didn't really TAKE the legend and OWN it like vampires have been owned by a few authors). I do have a werewolf story, because I latched onto them before werewolves started surging behind the vampire wake. Ah, well.
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In conversation with Charlaine, we touched upon the "fashionable genre's" in popular fiction. One genre will ride the wave of favor for a while and then fade and another become predominant. The paranormal genre seems to be on the crest at the moment, but it is beginning to get overwritten, IMO, and readers are going to begin looking for something new.
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This brings up another topic I've been curious about: Where people think the market will be shifting. :)
For my part, a quick look at the local BigChain Bookseller shelf in the SciFi/Fantasy section shows quite a few supernatural/contemporary fantasy series with the hotsexy vampires in play ... LKH, Butcher, Harris, Harrison, Briggs, etc. Some of these are established series, some are relatively new, some don't even have the shiny worn off them yet.
Is the backlash imminent? Are sales for these series already beginning to flag? Is the backlash building in the market or in the eyes of authors? (I.E. are we going to find the hotsexy vampire in particular and the supernatural genre in general fading because the reader base gets bored or are authors searching elsewhere from a perception, in-the-forest, that the market will HAVE to get bored and by the time they finish the Great American Genre Novel it'll be utterly unsalable?)
I, myself, after reading around in the genre for a few months, am finding the abundance of hotsexy vampires ... obvious. I haven't exactly had my finger on the pulse of genre fiction in the last few years (graduate studies) so I'm not sure if I'm seeing the tail end of a fad, the core of a new long-term market, or the apogee of a market pendulum.
An additional question: Will the "backlash vampires" sell? I see some people working in those directions ... nobody has, thus far, stepped forward to say: "My vampires are hot, sexy, and like leather corsets and I'm PROUD OF IT." I take it _Touch Of Evil_ has been picked up by a publisher? How many others writing an alternate vampire mythos into their work intend to shop those works out?
I'm sort of picking brains right now. :) For myself, I'm in the initial stages of a work and I sort of had to pause and ask myself ... "Is the market going to turn this into an unmovable lump before it ever gets finished?" Both because it doesn't have hot'n'sexy leather-fetish bloodsuckers, and because the plotline centers on a different take on the mythology (though sort of in a single-plot-in-a-series way) so they're there. AND because it's noir + monsters = 1st person narrative (no wizard, though).
Good writing can help, but I'd rather not get lumped into a market burn-out for lack of dilligent audience research.
--fje
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I don't know how much of what I read really qualifies as fantasy, but most of the stuff I trip across with vampires either paints them as seduction machines or angsty seduction machines. I personally love vampires and would really, really love to write something centering around them, but I think right now people are getting sick of them. That really saddens me, because I don't like seeing them as just pretty sex machines, or just anything for that matter. It makes them so dull, and there's just so damn much potential for making them into interesting, facinating people who are incredibly sexy because of how interesting and deep they are, which is far hotter than just being a seduction machine. But maybe I'm romanticizing it all far too much...
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I think the market is looking for the next big thing. Which is vague, I know, but nobody will know what it is until it comes out. Basically, the next big thing is pushed by the next big author. The next big author sets the trend, and it sparks a certain creativity wave that is reflected with bunches of new authors. It could be anything.
The first fad that I have personally seen is dark urban fantasy; Anne Rice, Laurell K. Hamilton, Jim Butcher, Tanya Huff, P. N. Elrod, Patricia Briggs, etc. It's still going on, but I'm not sure how much longer it can go. I entered it early; I picked up LKH when I was 12 (about 10 years ago), and I didn't touch Jim Butcher until a few months ago because I was overtly jaded about urban fantasy and I thought it would suck (Ha!). So for me personally, interest is flagging. But I can't tell if it will die down for others or not; perhaps it will become an enduring sub-genre of SFF, much like how Tolkein-esque fantasy is still big (when done right).
Sub-Fads in Dark Urban Fantasy:
- Sexy, Erotic Vampires (the biggest fad)
- Witches/Wizards (well, it's fantasy) in The Real World
- Werewolves (the second biggest fad)
The second fad I've seen is erotic fantasy. Anne Bishop, Jacqueline Carey, the crossover fantasy/romance imprint Luna, and there's this knockoff of Carey's Kushiel series I've seen, but I don't recall the title or author. Also, I think this is churning around with all the slash fanfiction online, some of which is very hard NC-17, feeding on itself. It'll probably explode into mainstream in a much bigger way soon, we've just seen the first shots.
As for "backlash vamps"; I can't say if it will sell. It might. E. E. Knight has alien vampires, and he sells. Then again, alien/parasite vamps is just a sci-fi spin on the fantasy mythos. There's a line somewhere that says, "if the amazing thing/creature/whatever is done by magic, it's fantasy, and if the same thing is done by a machine, it's sci-fi." That's what people are trying to do with vampires, and I don't think it will go over very big, myself, or maybe I'm just biased and I don't like it. Mostly because it's so obvious, it's a staple of the SFF genre to flip something like that. Tired of big sword-weilding barbarian men? Have big sword-weilding barbarian women instead! Tired of evil fantasy dragons? Let's have good telepathic alien dragons instead. ::coughPerncough:: Tired of Dracula-type vamps? Let's make 'em alien and biology-based instead of Evil and dead.
Things that I think might make it big are:
- demons (hey, vamps and werewolves have been done.). Then again I'm biased here, as my biggest world has many demons.
- Epic Urban Fantasy (I think Jim is pushing the Harry Dresden series this way; it's basically a merger of dark urban fantasy and epic fantasy)
- non-gritty Urban fantasy/fairytale urban fantasy (things have been Gritty so long I think Heros and Flowers and Sunshine are going to make a comeback despite false cries of Mary Sue)
- fantasy based on some mythos we aren't familiar with (yet)
- christian fantasy (fantasy in general has really been kicking christianity around for years and promoting wicca and new age religions. I think this will backlash; I'm not even christian, and yet I really like Jim Butcher's Carpenter family, because it's christianity treated with respect, which is so rare in the genre.)
Eastern and Asian fantasy have potential to be hits, look at the popularity of Manga and Anime, except for the fact that SFF is mostly a Western European genre, and most authors are white middle class western folk, and don't have the roots in Asian culture to really do it right. (Sort of like Historical fantasy; to do this you really have to do your research.)
African fantasy is entirely untapped, even more so than Asian fantasy. This could go over really big, but then again, there aren't many black writers in the genre so there aren't many people who have the urge to really dig down to the roots and do the research to make it work.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts and opinions.
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Dom, I wonder if the trend will be away from the paranormal-- vamps, fairies and were's, and toward the supernatural--angel's, demons, ghosts. I think this may be the "new" genre that will become hot. I agree that the "spiritual" seems to be gaining some momentum.
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Dom, I wonder if the trend will be away from the paranormal-- vamps, fairies and were's, and toward the supernatural--angel's, demons, ghosts. I think this may be the "new" genre that will become hot. I agree that the "spiritual" seems to be gaining some momentum.
Demons? Oh good. I can be trendy for once, then. :D
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What I have been TRYING to write could easily be described as Dark Urban(-ish) Fantasy.
ALL the creatures exist in one form or another. In the case of vamps, they are around, still hidden, but come in a variety of kinds. I think, what I'm gonna do is use each legend from each area and play with them all.
aka where they are from, dictates how/what they are. But demons are definately gonna be more 'center-stage' than most of anything else.
If I ever get it done, anyway. :P
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My interpretation is that it's the old sex and death fetish. It sort of creeps me out.
I think vampires are in over-use right now. If I were going to use any contemporary monsters in any of my stories (and why should I when I can make up my own?), I'd use werewolves.
Vampires appeal to people because they are sexual and passionate, yet completely in control--and since most people are dull, passionless and unable to control their lives, a vampiric existence can seem very romantic to them. However, I often feel like I'm too much in control of myself, and what I long for is my appetite to be unleashed--so I prefer werewolves.
I think we want to see ourselves in our monsters for some reason. Probably because it's cathartic.
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My interpretation is that it's the old sex and death fetish. It sort of creeps me out.
Ohhh.... I think that's why the vamps and sex thing bugs me! I hadn't thought about it before...
I just have problems with trying to think of a giant tick as "sexy."
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Wow! Now that's a new viewpoint. I'm going to have to ponder that--yuk! ;D
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:)
It reveals the problem with the more recent press for "not magical undead, but sexy predatory humans with a disease" ... blood-eating parasites are all much smaller than their hosts. Blood is a rather inefficient food source, so a human-sized blood parasite would have to drain people by the carloads.
The tick swells to almost 300% of it's original size, IIRC. Leeches are also built to expand. Every vampire would have to wake up at sunset looking like Calista Flockheart and end the day looking like the internet-troll vampire from Blade.
Would be an interesting conceit for a short piece.
--fje
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- christian fantasy (fantasy in general has really been kicking christianity around for years and promoting wicca and new age religions. I think this will backlash; I'm not even christian, and yet I really like Jim Butcher's Carpenter family, because it's christianity treated with respect, which is so rare in the genre.)
I, personally, would love that. You'd think you'd see some people trying to do this in the Christian market, but there really isn't much fantasy wise--not that's set in the real world, anyway. Most Christian fantasy that I've read either takes place in an alternate universe (LOTR) or have their characters cross-over (Narnia). It would rock to have a urban fantasy or something where the christian chars kick demon butt for JC. Or something. ;D
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isn't there some tongue-in-cheek book about a soccer mom who is a secret agent for the vatican battling demons?
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- christian fantasy (fantasy in general has really been kicking christianity around for years and promoting wicca and new age religions. I think this will backlash; I'm not even christian, and yet I really like Jim Butcher's Carpenter family, because it's christianity treated with respect, which is so rare in the genre.)
I, personally, would love that. You'd think you'd see some people trying to do this in the Christian market, but there really isn't much fantasy wise--not that's set in the real world, anyway. Most Christian fantasy that I've read either takes place in an alternate universe (LOTR) or have their characters cross-over (Narnia). It would rock to have a urban fantasy or something where the christian chars kick demon butt for JC. Or something. ;D
You might want to try LA Bank's series. I only read the first one, so I don't know if the preachy "jesus lord and saviour" continues through the whole series, though.
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Novium, the books you are thinking of are by Julie Kenner and the first of the series is entitled Carpe Demon, Adventures of a Demon-Hunting Soccer Mom. Very light and amusing. I personally don't like the Banks series but it is much darker.
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Most of the fantasy that i write focuses around the supernatural... i have an obsession with Angels and Demons that i can't really explain... but needless to say i find myself researching the topic.
However, at the moment I'm actually writing a Vampire story. Why? Because i have D&D character that's a Vampire, I thought I was role-playing him quite well, and I thought he had a great story behind him.
The character I play is very much a dandy hero... however, i went dark and brooding in my story.
But he's not an angsty vampire sex-god by any means. He's good looking, but it's more his force of personality than anything else... he tends to scare the hell out of people, and with good reason.
I went the feral, vicious, murderer route. But besides that, he's a fairly good guy ;).
So, it's a vampire story, but it's a lot different than most of the vampire stories I've read. It should be noted also, that it's not contemporary fantasy that I'm writing, it's in a medieval fantasy setting.
"I feel true pity for whoever found them in the morning, they were a sight that none should have had to behold. However, looking back, even now, I cannot help but smile."
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Uh, I took the vampire and gave them a whole heirarchy called Lines (6 of them) with Elders at the heads of those lines and the First (Vampire) above them all. They have no issue walking in sunlight (it hurts their eyes and going to put in that it somewhat weakens their powers) and their eyes change color with some emotions (example: red in the eyes equals anger; completely red eyes = run the HELL away, stuff is about to get destroyed. All use Power (yes, capital P), which is basically energy around and within them that they can lash out with in invisible waves. Some have small power over certain elements - such as the Cyclaryn Line which can use fire.
There are also Slayers (separated into eight Clans of slightly enhanced humans that hunt vampires), Witches (separated into seven Sects, four with control over elements and the other three are Healers, Seers, and Shapeshifter respectively), Werewolves (five Packs; also immune to silver and can change at will but must change during the full moon), Halflings (those of only half Slayer blood or Witch or Werewolf or, even, vampire - which is difficult to do and only a handful exist) and of course vanilla humans.
I actually created a message board role-play years ago based on all this. Here's the link to the webpage that has all the info on it --> http://www.terion.net/vampiredust/ . There's a link to the current incarnation of the message board there too. There's only 3 of us going at it right now but we're expanding the plot line of in-story characters so we're fine with that. Also, the last three on the Species list (exclude the Halflings) don't exist within the real storyline. Well, the last one MAY. Dunno as of yet.
The main character of the whole story is Darien O'Connell, a 362-year-old Irish vampire. He lost most of his memory when he was turned because he's nearly something called a Rogue (basically vampire's that go insane with bloodlust and kill everything; also are more powerful, which is why usually its the First and one or more of the Elders that hunt them down and kill them). His memories return some years later and he's abandoned by his Sire. The story moves into present times after that, where Darien's an FBI agent based in NYC with a human partner. From there there's attacks from Slayer and Witches alike with Darien trying not to get his partner killed and keeping his harsher side at bay.
...now that I've prattled on for three paragraphs, making an enormous post, I'll go away now. Have to go to class.
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Man, I don't even know where to start in this topic. I agree vampires are flooding the market, but there are still some authors who use them well, so I can't knock them entirely. Just as tragic loves and fish out of water stories are used over and over, there are always those who can reinvent them and do something cool.
Not me, though. There are two vampires in Succubus Blues who have a very silly sidekick role. They're not even very good vampires--they mostly get raw meat from butcher shops. And on the topic of Succubus Blues, I thought I was the hottest thing around to think of putting succubi in urban fantasy. Then author Jackie Kessler sold her succubus book a month or so after me. We both cried upon discovering each other, then got over it. Now we're promoting our stuff together. No doubt other succubus franchises will follow.
And as for the next big thing...well, I'm curious too. I asked a very well known fantasy author where she thought the market was going while we were at a conference, and she totally dug into me, berating me for daring to consider the market. She didn't know I'd sold books and went on and on about how you can't write to the market, have to write what you love, etc., etc. So my curiosity remains unfulfilled.
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Hmm... where is the market going, huh? I think there's probably no real answer to that. Everyone is riding the paranormal trend right now, from Harlequin's new "Nocturne" line to a novelization of the old Dark Shadows TV series (I kid you not! The first one is written by Lara Parker, who played Angelique, the witch on the series.)
I think so long as there are new twists to the old legends, there's plenty of room. In fact, I just recently ponied up a BIG chunk of change for a hardcover book called The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology (Cotterell & Storm-Hermes House) that has myths from all over the globe and in all cultures. There are LOTS of vampire/shapeshifter legends that haven't been tapped from Russia, Roman/Greco mythology and even Native American cultures.
I don't see any end in sight (thank goodness!), so long as it's not just same-old/same-old. ;D
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I'll be the first to tell you I'm not an expert but I do read a lot and I post on many boards and on a lot of them readers are getting tired of paranormals. It is becoming hard to find anything new that has not been done by someone else and done better. For that reason, I think the paranormal has crested and will begin to give way to another fav, and I think it may be the supernatural. One opinion among many. ;)
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Not me, though. There are two vampires in Succubus Blues who have a very silly sidekick role. They're not even very good vampires--they mostly get raw meat from butcher shops. And on the topic of Succubus Blues, I thought I was the hottest thing around to think of putting succubi in urban fantasy. Then author Jackie Kessler sold her succubus book a month or so after me. We both cried upon discovering each other, then got over it. Now we're promoting our stuff together. No doubt other succubus franchises will follow.
I have an Incubus. :D Or rather two; one's half-Incubus, one's quarter-incubus. Given how Incubi...er...get around...there's a lot of halfbreeds out there. ;) Or so my reasoning goes.
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"Strike that, the health concious kid sister made it two.... succubuses. Succubusees? Succubi? Stupid Latin correspondence course."
Sorry, with all of this talk about succubi and incubi, I couldn't pass up a chance to quote Harry. Ah, how I love Blood Rites. ;)
Cathy Clamp, thanks for posting about The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology . I love reading myths to get inspiration for stories, so I'll have to go track a copy down. ;D
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One thing I've noticed ... I went to several Big Name Booksellers in various cities and went through their scifi/fantasy sections looking for books that obviously billed themselves as contemporary supernatural/occult.
About 2 in 3 were written by women about female protagonists and contained vampires or some variation of "The Hot'n'sexy Dangerous Supernatural Guy/Girl" in positions of romantic or at least sexual interest.
THAT combination, I think, is outplayed. Two prominently displayed series were female witches of some stripe who are strong/sassy/sexy and yet frightened and thrilled by how easily their supernatural lovers could overpower them.
One, of course, involves a (mostly ex now, eh?) vampire hunter boffing kennels full of supernatural hunks.
Most have a universality of skewed english faerie mythology (faeries, often with wings, and Victorian to the hilt). Out of hand I can only think of one that dealt with native american mythological themes (and turned them romantic).
I would say my favorite authors in the general area would be Butcher and Neil Gaiman, and Gaiman's stuff has been billed more as Horror and Contemporary Literary than fantasy.
--fje
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Funny you mentioned the predominance of female protagonists. I'm beating my head against the wall with a current urban fantasy project. My agent and I were discussing it and both agreed the female narrator's love interest had a far more compelling tale to tell and that I should bring that out more. I noted that it would work better and be more interesting if I made him the first person narrator instead of her. My agent was cautious about endorsing that, noting that it might not fly in what's otherwise a female dominated market. So now what line to walk? Would I be consigning the book to oblivion by having a guy tell it? Or is the market ready for more of that kind of thing (Harry being a success)? Of course, the correct answer is to write whatever makes a good story, and that's what I'll do. But still, it's just another example of how mind-boggling it is trying to figure out what this genre's going to do.
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Would I be consigning the book to oblivion by having a guy tell it? Or is the market ready for more of that kind of thing (Harry being a success)?
I can't speak for the rest of the market but I'm certainly ready for more male narrators. Not that I won't read books with female narrators - I'm not that picky about my urban fantasy, provided there aren't too many gratuitous shoe references - but I simply enjoy male protagonists more. (Notably Harry Dresden and Jack Fleming.) Can't figure out why this is, mind you, unless it's because the men seem to get less sex (or less graphic sex when they do get it) and I prefer tasteful 'fade to black' type scenes.
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Would I be consigning the book to oblivion by having a guy tell it? Or is the market ready for more of that kind of thing (Harry being a success)? Of course, the correct answer is to write whatever makes a good story, and that's what I'll do. But still, it's just another example of how mind-boggling it is trying to figure out what this genre's going to do.
I think it's more than ready for male narrators. All my urban fantasy is actually narrated by males (that's just how it went) and I agree that the bad-ass supernatural chick thing is getting old.
Just be wary and don't give the male narrator a feminine voice. I had that problem in my early work, and the thing I'm working on now I'm looking at sideways, because I can't tell if I'm feminizing Raul, my character, or not.
As a side note, it's interesting to watch how Jim does characterization, vs. how female writers do it. There's a slight difference, and I'm not sure if it's because it's comparing different authors to one another, or if gender plays into it or not.
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I think the overall "image" of the market for these books is female ... and that the impression is all female readers desire a romance novel ... with added content.
I've only "seen" Jim's audience in the population of the boards and the attendance at his talk this year at Dragon*Con ... but at LEAST half of the audience seems to be men.
'Course I could be biased. :) I know what -I- would like to see ... and what I'm not seeing ... and what I want to write, which I'm also not seeing.
Now, the situation remains that the IMAGE of the market may be that it is a majority women who want to see female characters, and that male characters won't sell to publishers. But that's akin to producing only chocolate icecream and saying the ice-cream-buying market is made up entirely of people who like chocolate.
Good fiction will sell. Thus I aspire to write good fiction.
I think I have a good story to tell, and I hope I can do so skillfully.
--fje
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I think the overall "image" of the market for these books is female ... and that the impression is all female readers desire a romance novel ... with added content.
All the urban fantasy readers I know IRL are female, but yeah, based on the board demographics the genre is just as popular with males. What irritates me is the idea that female readers need romance (or more) in a book to enjoy it. I may be in the minority with this opinion but I really don't enjoy reading romance. Flirtatious dialogue is one thing; watching couples spar in a will-they won't they fashion is good entertainment and I enjoy writing it myself. But when a good chunk of the plot is dedicated to romance in some way, particularly when there's a lot of physical interaction, it bores me to tears.
I get round this in my own books by giving my protagonist a love interest who refuses to date him, as he would have to dismantle his partner first and he's not prepared to do that. This way I get to put in as much fun and flirting as I like, but save the angst for more important things.
(We seem to have lost the vampires somewhere along the way, don't we? This is an interesting topic, though, so perhaps we should start a 'Heroes vs. Heroines' thread or something.)
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Well, my original question was sort of predicated by a "is this what the market really wants?" sort of thing.
I.E. are there so many vampires in current contemporary supernatural (con/sup?) fiction because there HAVE to be? I.E. would a book that didn't contain vampires (or vampire cognates, really) ... I think the same question sort of applies up and down the board to any Hot Sexy Dangerous and Supernatural creature: hotsexy werewolves (as opposed to scary ones like the Loup Garou in Fool Moon), hotsexy demons (incubi/succubi), etc.
Or is this just a trope that happens to be popular with AUTHORS ...
I asked because my vampires aren't hot or sexy. Nor are they monstrously alien. More monstrous in the human perspective.
We could also use a thread on women in supernatural fiction. Check your local listings.
--fje
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(We seem to have lost the vampires somewhere along the way, don't we? This is an interesting topic, though, so perhaps we should start a 'Heroes vs. Heroines' thread or something.)
Yup. I'm jumping over there... ;)
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I would personally like to see a couple of vampire novels in first person male. I enjoy reading urban fantasy/horror in first person. It has that very "real" closeness that drags me into the plot. I might consider something like that for the future. Our first book, Hunter's Moon, is first person male--except he's a werewolf. But a vampire story, sort of a noir detective thing, might be a lot of fun. Maybe even set in the 30's or 40's. That could be a kick. Sort of a "Mickey Spillane with fangs." Heh.
Yeah, now you've got me going... ;D
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I would personally like to see a couple of vampire novels in first person male. But a vampire story, sort of a noir detective thing, might be a lot of fun. Maybe even set in the 30's or 40's. That could be a kick. Sort of a "Mickey Spillane with fangs." Heh.
P.N. Elrod's Vampire Files series would be perfect for you, then. They were what turned me on to urban fantasy in the first place, and are still a constant presence on my bookcase. First person male, vampire reporter-turned-detective/nightclub owner/part-time mobster in the 1930s.
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They are human, just changed. They aren't giant ticks, or even monsters, exactly. That might be why people relate to vampires. If vampires existed in real life, you couldn't even kill them, obviously. Having a soul isn't a terrific definition of live citizen, scince we have no gizmo that can verify anyone having a soul.
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Maybe I've latched onto it late, but I still like reading about vampires. I think what makes Charlaine Harris' books stand out for me is that while vamps are central to the story, there are other supernaturals as well. It takes place in the "real" world, and they are funny as well as scary. I'm not as fond of the vampire/romance novels out there, although I've read quite a few. Harris' books have the same kind of tongue-in-cheek humor that I loved in Buffy.
As to the market, IMO there will always be a market for the "traditional" supernatural, i.e. werewolves, vampires, etc., just like there is a market for detective stories, lawyers solving crimes, and CSI-like investigators. The supernatural world in publishing is experiencing a boom right now, and that will pass, but the genre is set and will always be there. An author coming in with a new twist will still be able to break in.
I like good stories no matter who is doing the narrating. I think that women narrators have been rare in the past, especially in this genre, so the surge in that was filling a void. Consider the void full. LOL. I am ready to read something from a male pov. A modern story, like Harry's, from a male vamp pov would be interesting.
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i don't know. I just can't get comfortable with vampires as good guys/sexy. I mean, i've read some, obviously. but the bloodsucking part just turns my stomach.
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i don't know. I just can't get comfortable with vampires as good guys/sexy. I mean, i've read some, obviously. but the bloodsucking part just turns my stomach.
Have I got a book for you ...
Gimme a few years, get it finished and published ... oi.
--fje
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I'm using vamps in my books but, as someone said earlier in the thread, I'm sticking close to the demon/angel theme. My vampires are just one order of demons. Only one of them is intended to be sexy, but believe me he is only sexy until he gets angry.
I think vampires are the in thing in writing because they are so accessible, but also they are a staple of horror. ANything that's so close to being human but is actually a monster is more scary thatn a big lizardy thing that bears no relationship to human beings. Only my opinion though...
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What gets me is why most authors don't let their vampires eat regular food, or if they do, they go and vomit it up sometime later. You would think, with the amount of energy that it would take for their strength, speed, and other powers that they would need to eat to have high energy reserves. Also, from what I've read, the whole sunlight thing didn't make it into the mythos until F.W. Murnow(sp?) made Nosferatu.
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IIRC, in Dracula, the vampire wasn't so much burned/incinerated by sunlight as had to go out without his powers. I think it was also a special thing for him, and left him vulnerable. I.E. he could only "go human" or "go vampire" at dusk or dawn, and so was stuck either asleep in his box or awake and powerless until the sun went down.
Note that Dracula was also seen to never eat actual food. He also had a huge suite of magical abilities .... he could shrink down to the size of a bug, poof around as a cloud of dust, control animals, turn into a bat or wolf, mesmerize, etc, most of which modern writers only choose a handful of for their own vampire mythos.
Now, mythological vampires run all over the board. What we call a "vampire" was codified by Stoker in Dracula, and that he ripped off from, IIRC, some central european myths mixed together with some home-grown BS and mythology having nothing to do with things we'd call "vampires". Other cultures, of course, had their own types of myths, and they interchanged and interplayed as people moved about, many of them called "vampires" where they intersected, some with different names and similar powers. Alot of it had to do with fears related to the preservation of bodies ... human tissue shrinks after death, giving the fingernails and hair a "longer" appearance (as the skin draws away), so people who dug up corpses occassionally thought that their hair and nails had continued to grow after death, and thus the body LIVED after death ... addionally human bodies tend to soponificate ... which is to say, the fatty tissues sort of solidify and turn themselves into a rendered soap-like substance. This can give corpses a waxy, "preserved" appearance that lasts into periods when the corpse next door might be rendered into bones and mouldy hair, again giving rise to bodies that live beyond death.
Vampires in modern fiction have a few things in common:
1) Sexy ... Anne Rice sort of crowned this and made it a usual modern feature. Death and Sex often go together, and girls do love a bad boy, so the vampire (as a killer monster in a human body) sex symbol sells.
2) Alive ... It's become pretty popular to have vampires be "alive", it seems ... people infected with a virus or cursed or having a "demon soul" or whatever. Usually these people have their vampires eat real food, since it's pretty silly to have a human-sized blood parasite. Blood just isn't that great a medium for energy transfer when digested and most blood parasites are both expandable and much smaller than their prey.
3) Sunlight Burnable ... Again, this wasn't always in the mythology and does seem to be codified from movie-myth. As the living dead, most mythological vampires had a CONNECTION to the night ... either only coming out at night or only revealing their powers at night or only HAVING power at night, etc. I think it's popular because the modern vampire is a modern superman ... stronger, faster, sexier ... this becomes an obvious drawback and method for keeping the Super-Sexy Brigade in check, which serves to make them EVEN SEXIER because they can be tragic figures while kicking butt and looking hot.
People usually play with these, combining and dropping features, putting together their own "logical" and "realistic" vampires, etc. Oddly, "real" mythology is usually the most bizzare ... like variations on some eastern vampires whose HEADS are vampires ... the head pops off and goes rolling about with some entrails attached to it, it climbs around and sucks blood ...
--fje
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What gets me is why most authors don't let their vampires eat regular food, or if they do, they go and vomit it up sometime later.
If it cheers you up, my vampire side characters eat regular food. One of them gets so paranoid about it that he actually goes on a low carb diet. :P
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I think its important to note that the Vampire market has mostly been expanding by leaps and bounds to become it's own sub-genre because several authors have managed to create a market for it where it didn't exist before. This actually means that people are going to be less burned out than people expected. I'll go down with a list of things that have occurred in the past 10-20 years that have had a major impact on the market.
1. Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire series.
2. White Wolf's Vampire the Masquerade and it's LARP
3. Joss Wheldon's Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
4. The Blade Trilogy
5. The Anita Blake series that is more a literary benefit.
Urban Fantasy has been slowly expanding as a market because the trail has been slowly but surely pathed by people adding daily to it. The Hellblazer series I tend to actually think started the Urban Fantasy genre some thirty years ago. Chris Carter's The X-files is the biggest gift of it to the world today (though aliens are now utterly passe again as a part of urban mythology). Neil Gaiman and others have also added to it.
Hell, even Harry Potter.
In general, I think that vampires will always have a place in fantasy because they fulfill the role of an easily usable mythological monster. They're also very flexible creatures for their usage. You've got the Byronic "I'm cursed" hero types and romantic leads that everyone since Frank Langella has been harping on (though I'd love to see some more sexy female vampires honestly). You've got the mindless monster style vampires that are always good for cannon fodder. You've also got the intelligent ancient evils at work as well.
Vampires I don't think will ever become passe since there's so many ways to do them. Does no one remember how people said that Hammer Horror had completely tapped out the genre (probably not but my father believed that). In my books, I tend to use them as a combination of ravenous monsters and intelligent manipulative scum. It's no coincidence that I also make one of the heroes' lovers into a vampire but I keep her villainous. Why? Because I think they work better as femme fatales than genuine people to be interested in.
I also think that even movies of questionable content like Keanu Reeve's Constantine will help keep the urban fantasy world alive. More work equals the fans expanding. I honestly don't believe that Christian mythology would be taken seriously as a genuine work for fantasy were not there some genuinely fun pieces incorporating it. I'm referring, of course, to works like The Omen and The Prophecy where they work wonderfully.
Sadly, it's been a while since the Howling and werewolves need a shot in the arm.
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If anyone's interested, the latest Dragon Page podcast has a recording of a WFC 2006 panel discussing vampire fiction. I haven't listened to it yet, but it looks interesting. You can find the podcast at www.dragonpage.com.
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In my stories, vampires, and to some extent, the werewolves are the whipping boys, because they cause the most trouble. Many vampires, at least those who are from Eastern Europe think that they are the "Masters of the Night" and, that the other supernatural creatures rebelled against them centuries ago. They also think that North and South America have little or no supernatural presence, and that they can move in at will. My main characters like change their minds, usually the vamprie ends up with broken limbs, and/or dead. The werewolves have their whole pack/gang mentality, and with some, it gets them into trouble. They go into supernatural clubs and hangouts, and they get their butts handed to them.
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Sadly, it's been a while since the Howling and werewolves need a shot in the arm.
I'm actually currently working on a werewolf story if any takes interest. Whenever the writer's board gets up'n runnin' I'll post the first chapter of it.
Also, on the vampire thing, I wondered if anyone had ever heard of this odd method of killing vampires that I found on the Encyclodpedia Mythica: stealing his left sock, filling it with stones and throwing it in a river. That one just makes my brain go "...gwah?"
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Read a book called Moon Called not too long ago, forget the author, a mid-list traditional fantasy writer I think ... sort of about werewolves. The protag is actually a native american skinwalker, but in the first book all that means is she turns into a coyote through innate magic instead of transforming physically into a wolf like her foster family.
Wasn't terrible. One of the current spate of: "Faeries and Supernatural Creatures Revealed Themselves In the World" setting books, as opposed to the Dresden style "They're There, But We Don't Know It".
Course it's also got vampires and faeries in it. My favorite part is the faeries were more germanic than english victorian revisionist. One of the characters is an old german gremlin.
--fje
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I read an urban fantasy book a few weeks ago that had most of the usual urban fantasy creatures, but no vampires. It was pretty good, actually. Apropos of nothing, but it was unusual enough that I thought I'd mention it.
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I don't use them, they are WAY overused. They are however convenient for an author because there are already a good set of preconceptions...you don't have to re-invent the wheel for a character that way.
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Read a book called Moon Called not too long ago, forget the author, a mid-list traditional fantasy writer I think ... sort of about werewolves. The protag is actually a native american skinwalker, but in the first book all that means is she turns into a coyote through innate magic instead of transforming physically into a wolf like her foster family.
Wasn't terrible. One of the current spate of: "Faeries and Supernatural Creatures Revealed Themselves In the World" setting books, as opposed to the Dresden style "They're There, But We Don't Know It".
Course it's also got vampires and faeries in it. My favorite part is the faeries were more germanic than english victorian revisionist. One of the characters is an old german gremlin.
--fje
Her name is Katherine Briggs, and the sequel comes out in a month or two.
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Sadly, it's been a while since the Howling and werewolves need a shot in the arm.
I'm actually currently working on a werewolf story if any takes interest. Whenever the writer's board gets up'n runnin' I'll post the first chapter of it.
Also, on the vampire thing, I wondered if anyone had ever heard of this odd method of killing vampires that I found on the Encyclodpedia Mythica: stealing his left sock, filling it with stones and throwing it in a river. That one just makes my brain go "...gwah?"
The vampire sock method showed up in the cartoon Jackie Chan Adventures.
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My take on why vampires stick around in contemporary fantasy; it's a combination of a pile of sex-related stuff*, plus the fascination of the outsider - in its more annoying forms, the outsider who angsts on for pages and pages and pages about never seeing the sun again - and the sort of repulsive fascination of disease imagery [ see also, nineteenth-century romanticisation of consumption. ]
Having just watched A Bridge Too Far on DVD last night, the title of this thread is making think of more practical uses like "if we swim over and chain a bunch of vampires to this bridge tonight, they'll all go boom at dawn and burn it down." That's probably not hemplful.
*As Gregory von Bayern says in The Dragon Waiting, vampires persuade their paramours as young men maidens; there's a little pain and a little blood but not as much as you think of either, and of course nothing's going to happen to you. And then one day you wake up... ill.