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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on January 11, 2025, 04:53:23 AM
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I have two questions to ask everyone about John Marcone. The first is probably just a yes or no question but the second one; well, if you want to take a stab at it, you may have to make a wild ass guess or perhaps you might prefer to call it, an educated hypothesis about future events.
Rereading the rant Nicodemus went on in Skin Game in Hades vault, when Nic claimed that Anduriel wasn’t controlling him, that in fact it was Nicodemus who led the Fallen, not the other way around, it got me thinking about Marcone.
We learned in Battle Ground that John Marcone is also a denarian and has probably been one since he was rescued by Harry and company in Small Favor. Both Nicodemus and Marcone are smart and highly driven characters, and they both like to be in control. They are used to getting their own way, most of the time.
Here’s my first question. Do you think Marcone might be falling into the same error Nicodemus has made, thinking that he is in control of his partnership with one of the Fallen? Sure, Marcone is very smart and careful, but a creature that has been in existence since near the very beginning of time itself might be able to slowly mold Marcone in ways the Baron of Chicago wouldn’t notice.
Part 2: We know Nicodemus has a long term goal or endgame in mind. Deirdre told Harry that she and Nicodemus were, “fighting to save the world.” In Death Masks or Small Favor when Harry said to Nicodemus, “You’re a saint, Nic,” Nicodemus replied, “One day.” The guy has a long-term goal in mind, which brings me back to John Marcone.
Before we knew that John Marcone had taken up one of the blackened Denarius, we thought of him as just a crime lord. A very ambitious crime lord who was expanding his territory into the supernatural world, but in the end, just a vanilla mortal with at best twenty to forty years of life expectancy remaining. Even if Marcone lived into his 90’s; generally speaking it’s real hard to be intimidating when you are in your 80’s or even your 70’s. But theoretically, Marcone is functionally immortal now. He can be killed, but it is very hard to do so.
So that leads me to my second question. What is John Marcone’s long-term goal? With the knowledge he must have received from Thorned Namshiel, John Marcone is probably thinking long-term now, well beyond the power he acquired by becoming the Baron of Chicago.
We know that Marcone has it in for Nicodemus, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t share; or come to share through the influence of his business partner, the same goals as Nicodemus. Maybe Marcone sees himself or will see himself as the next leader of Denarians. Maybe John Marcone will come to believe that he has to “save the world” the same way Nicodemus does.
In a really dark turn, maybe John Marcone becomes convinced to join forces with Nicodemus. Harry and the KoTC have to face both Denarians, plus whatever cannon fodder Denarians Nic or Marcone can convince to join them.
On the other hand, it seems likely that in Mirror-Mirror Harry will meet a different version of John Marcone. There has been some speculation that this alternate version of John Marcone will have radically changed after Dresden made a different decision in Grave Peril and travelled down a darker path. I’m not sure where this idea came from; a WoJ that hinted at it or just an idea that has become popular with some readers, but this redeemed version of John Marcone might reveal something to Harry that he might later use to do what Michael couldn’t do with Nicodemus, get the John Marcone of his own universe to repent and redeem himself, perhaps helping Harry to stop Nicodemus once and for all.
I don’t know where John Marcone is going, what his long-term goals are or what they might become, but I don’t think John Marcone has the goals of a typical crime lord any longer. He wants something more now. What do you think?
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Here’s my first question. Do you think Marcone might be falling into the same error Nicodemus has made, thinking that he is in control of his partnership with one of the Fallen?
Yes, I've said this from the start and have posted it, in the end it is my belief that Marcone will rue the day he accepted that coin. Both Marcone and Nic think they are smart and call the shots, but in any power struggle with the Fallen, they lose.. Fallen or not, Marcone and Nic are up against angelic power, only another angel or the Lord is a true match for that.
Part 2: We know Nicodemus has a long term goal or endgame in mind. Deirdre told Harry that she and Nicodemus were, “fighting to save the world.” In Death Masks or Small Favor when Harry said to Nicodemus, “You’re a saint, Nic,” Nicodemus replied, “One day.” The guy has a long-term goal in mind, which brings me back to John Marcone.
Before we knew that John Marcone had taken up one of the blackened Denarius, we thought of him as just a crime lord. A very ambitious crime lord who was expanding his territory into the supernatural world, but in the end, just a vanilla mortal with at best twenty to forty years of life expectancy remaining. Even if Marcone lived into his 90’s; generally speaking it’s real hard to be intimidating when you are in your 80’s or even your 70’s. But theoretically, Marcone is functionally immortal now. He can be killed, but it is very hard to do so.
Saving the world is all a point of view, isn't it? I mean what you think will save the world I might think will end it. Who is right? Or does it all even out in the end? Marcone may be harder to kill now, but he got the coin because his predecessor was killed before him.. We've seen quite a few coin holders getting killed in the series, hosts are expendable, there is always a mortal waiting in the wings out of stupidity, weakness, or lust for power among other things who will accept a coin.. Who knows? If Harry hadn't accidentally stumbled into that soul gaze with a Denarian back in Death Masks and saw the reality of what being a host really means he might have given in to Lasciel's temptations.. As it was, in the end given that knowledge, Harry's will was strong enough to reject Laciel's coin, but only just.
So that leads me to my second question. What is John Marcone’s long-term goal? With the knowledge he must have received from Thorned Namshiel, John Marcone is probably thinking long-term now, well beyond the power he acquired by becoming the Baron of Chicago.
Marcone's long term goal? No different from when he was just a crime boss, go back and watch the opening scenes from "The Godfather"at the wedding, Marcone is no different. From Marcone's first glimpses of the supernatural world, he knew he wanted a sizable chunk of it for his own ends, power and control.. That was his goal before he met Harry, it is no different now.. However this time I think he has bit off more than he will ultimately be able to chew.. Who knows? We might see a disillusioned Marcone repent and surrender his coin to the Holy Knight Butters in the final chapter of the series.
I have no expectations for Mirror Mirror, it isn't a book I am looking forward to unless Harry learns some valuable lessons from it.
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Odds that Marcone is also starborn?
Also, isn't Nic starborn?
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Odds that Marcone is also starborn?
Also, isn't Nic starborn?
If he is, it hasn't been mentioned.. We don't know Marcone's birthday, so he may or may not be..
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Nicodemus might be starborn, but not John Marcone. To be starborn, Marcone would have to be the same age as Harry; because of the every 666 years rule, and it was pretty clear in Storm Front that Marcone was a decade or two older than Harry.
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Nicodemus might be starborn, but not John Marcone. To be starborn, Marcone would have to be the same age as Harry; because of the every 666 years rule, and it was pretty clear in Storm Front that Marcone was a decade or two older than Harry.
However at this point we don't know for sure in either case.
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I don't think taking up the coin was long term planning on Marcone's part. More like a "short term" (a decade, two at most) loan he's hoping he can skate on, before the angel in his brain puts him in a mindlock. I imagine he's very aware it's only a matter of time. It would be a weird gap in the savvy that we saw in Even Hand for him to think otherwise.
The hubris of trying to lead The Fallen is Nicodemus' thing, and Marcone got front row seats to Suffering Engine Inc's maximum intensity of fucked up clownshow being executed on Ivy. That's probably not the kind of attempted initiation that builds delusions of security. I imagine it does impress the reality of the game Marcone was playing into him, and made him confront the power dynamics at hand.
Marcone is very cunning, willful, resourceful, and at this point, the accumulation of power was basically happening automatically for him (not that he was lax in cultivating it, ofc). He was seriously not someone to be screwed with. Harry may have eliminated a bloodline in a moment of pique later on in the story, but Marcone murdered his way to the top of an industry where there are a standard number of generations for particular transgressions (interestingly enough, Marcone's bloodline related wrath probably only went upwards in the family tree as well).
He could always be more powerful, but John was just about topped out on what could be meaningfully expressed as a vanilla mortal in supernatural contexts. I don't think he skimped out on a single Monoc package, and probably earned a discount or two by inventing a few. At least it was as much as he could bring to bear without getting bogged down in more obligations than it was worth in mortal politics (although Lara Raith seemed to have found a loophole or two).
He then got ripped out of a saferoom in the heart of his power, every advantage at hand. By someone with the same personality type, assorted magic powers, an omniscient spy demon, and as salt in the wound, ~2000 years of compounding interest completely obviating any structural power of Marcone's. Since criminals take bribes if they're big enough. All as a test run/bait for a real player.
Oh, and Nic's gang literally worships him instead of being a traitorous backstabbing pack of criminals that require constant managing. Just on a professional level, being out-disciplined by the eunuch guy. Ouch.
Marcone isn't a hero getting by on moral-gumption-made-physical-power and regular abuses of free will at a breathtaking scale. He's a ruthless strategist who tries to win in every possible outcome (and who regularly games free will). He was helpless before powers greater than himself, so he got better leverage. He's not just aware that things are coming to a head, he's playing an unclear role in helping them get there. Therefore gaining more specific leverage over who knows what apocalypse-y shenanigans.
The blast crater formerly known as Chicago, to start with. Now that there has been one blast crater, there will be polite inquiries into if there will be a second blast crater by the mortal powers that be. The taboo on large (read: torch and pitchfork risking) scale politics is probably on it's last legs. Now that there's power to be made in brokering, it's gonna get made. How convenient for Marcone, ever a man of lucky placement and timing.
In his ideal scenario he probably saves Amanda Beckitt, saves His People and the world from whatever's coming, comes out alive himself, becomes King of Greater America (whatever the hell that means), dunks Thorned Namshiel in a Vatican vending machine for a pop, and skips off into the sunset with his ill gotten magical powers as Harry Dresden, new loyal employee, admits how wrong he was the entire time. Which John will magnanimously wave away to begin a fruitful and long partnership.
More likely, he will begin sacrificing those items in reverse order and with rapidly increasing frequency as the nemfected Fallen cheats somehow, and the brainlock goes faster than expected. And we get to watch! He just lost the closest thing to his conscience, which I'm sure was also totally unrelated to the similarly habitually fortunate Fallen Angel whispering sweet nothings to his subconscious.
Or at least that's my read. I'm not sure if the story is actually Freudian, or if I'm just slipping.
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I don't think taking up the coin was long term planning on Marcone's part. More like a "short term" (a decade, two at most) loan he's hoping he can skate on, before the angel in his brain puts him in a mindlock. I imagine he's very aware it's only a matter of time. It would be a weird gap in the savvy that we saw in Even Hand for him to think otherwise.
I agree, taking up the coin was not part of a long term plan on Marcone's part. I doubt that he thought past the part where the coin would give him wizard power equal to and beyond what Harry has. I doubt that he even realizes now who is really calling the shots or will be soon. As I said, in my opinion there are two reasons why Harry was able to reject both the influence ultimately of Lasciel's Shadow and the coin. 1] Right off Butters points out to Harry that Sheila was a delusion, thus he needs to be questioning everything. 2] His experience with the soul gaze of a Denarian, he understands from the get go about who is really calling the shots if he accepts a coin. Marcone has none of those advantages, however I think it will take a while before he realizes he isn't calling the shots.
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edit: re-calculating this post, as I got some wrong data into it...
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I agree, taking up the coin was not part of a long term plan on Marcone's part. I doubt that he thought past the part where the coin would give him wizard power equal to and beyond what Harry has. I doubt that he even realizes now who is really calling the shots or will be soon. As I said, in my opinion there are two reasons why Harry was able to reject both the influence ultimately of Lasciel's Shadow and the coin. 1] Right off Butters points out to Harry that Sheila was a delusion, thus he needs to be questioning everything. 2] His experience with the soul gaze of a Denarian, he understands from the get go about who is really calling the shots if he accepts a coin. Marcone has none of those advantages, however I think it will take a while before he realizes he isn't calling the shots.
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The denarii seem to have realizes that its easier to control the host if they think that you are partners and the host tends to last longer. Hosts that a completely broken tend not to last long before a KoTC shows up.
Anduriel especially seems to have trained Nic enough that he doesn't need to do much to hmget him to obey.
Nammy will probably do the same with marcone. At first he will get him to compromise a little bit of his principles and over time the compromises will get larger and larger.
At first it will be i protect my people no matter what then i will sacrifice this one guy for the greater good, the justification of the sacrifice will get weaker and weaker and eventually no justification will be needed
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The denarii seem to have realizes that its easier to control the host if they think that you are partners and the host tends to last longer. Hosts that a completely broken tend not to last long before a KoTC shows up.
Anduriel especially seems to have trained Nic enough that he doesn't need to do much to hmget him to obey.
Nammy will probably do the same with marcone. At first he will get him to compromise a little bit of his principles and over time the compromises will get larger and larger.
At first it will be i protect my people no matter what then i will sacrifice this one guy for the greater good, the justification of the sacrifice will get weaker and weaker and eventually no justification will be needed
Except Marcone really has never been in it for the greater good. Yes, he feels some guilt over that little girl who got caught in his cross fire, but basically he is the same person he was before she got shot in the head.
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WAG: Marcone took up the coin under the condition that the girl in the coma is cured.
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Except Marcone really has never been in it for the greater good. Yes, he feels some guilt over that little girl who got caught in his cross fire, but basically he is the same person he was before she got shot in the head.
More than "feels some guilt." Harry (based on soulgaze) has ID'ed that as a core bit of Marcone's identity, the cold driving fire that makes him what he is.
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More than "feels some guilt." Harry (based on soulgaze) has ID'ed that as a core bit of Marcone's identity, the cold driving fire that makes him what he is.
Really? I have to go back and read it, if I remember correctly Harry didn't know what it was. However here is what makes no sense to me at any rate, his responsibility for what happened to the girl hasn't done anything to make him a better person. He has done little to atone for what he did that ruined her life, and that of her family. While yes, that is the one thing he is ashamed of and would commit murder if it would heal her, I don't think it defines him. It maybe when Jim wrote that he still had Marcone in mind as a possible Holy Knight, I felt those vibes at one time. I no longer think that is they case, yes, like in the book and the movie, "The Godfather," Marcone may have his own sense of what justice should be and ergo morality, at the end of the day he is a murdering monster who is and has played all the supernatural angles he can for power and influence.
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Marcone has none of those advantages, however I think it will take a while before he realizes he isn't calling the shots.
I think he actually has a pretty decent analogue for both.
1] Right off Butters points out to Harry that Sheila was a delusion, thus he needs to be questioning everything.
Marcone has Gard exactly for situations like this. As a consultant her role tends to be very fluid as needs arise, but she's most valuable as an information source and force multiplier. There, she's relaying information to Marcone about how to use all of his other resources most effectively.
Like if picking up this coin that the Devil's Carnival has been yelling "do it, do it, do it" about all night might have some potential negative side effects. Or sending her to her home office to make some inquiries (and perhaps do a bit more), if that would be beneficial.
2] His experience with the soul gaze of a Denarian, he understands from the get go about who is really calling the shots if he accepts a coin.
To be honest, between Dresden and Marcone, I think Marcone got the better lesson here (even if he was a slower learner).
He got full-on Clockwork Orange'd on demonreach. I don't think even Jim knows exactly what happened to Ivy, but getting her the hell out of there was basically the only thing Marcone could focus on while he bled all over Sanya's cloak. That's partially character building, partially how compressed and hectic that scene is, but I think it's also a hint that whatever happened was authentically Hellish.
We'll probably find out. Flipping through Small Favor, and there's even a bit of foreshadowing about the risks of breaking The Archive with friendship at the end. We're definitely starting to see that happen. This is definitely gonna come up again, the only question is if Marcone's choice and Ivy's end up linked in that way.
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Marcone has Gard exactly for situations like this. As a consultant her role tends to be very fluid as needs arise, but she's most valuable as an information source and force multiplier. There, she's relaying information to Marcone about how to use all of his other resources most effectively.
I think the Denarians play in a different league from Gard. I also think while she make be acting as muscle for Marcone, she actually works for Vadderung and his best interests.
We'll probably find out. Flipping through Small Favor, and there's even a bit of foreshadowing about the risks of breaking The Archive with friendship at the end. We're definitely starting to see that happen. This is definitely gonna come up again, the only question is if Marcone's choice and Ivy's end up linked in that way.
Ivy is full on Archive now, she has no boss, nor was she ever friends with Marcone as far as that goes.
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The thing to remember is that John Marcone and Harry Dresden are, in some ways, almost mirror images, psychologically.
I've said before that if you take Michael Carpenter, and morally reverse him, you get Nicodemus Archleone. If you take Harry Dresden and reverse him morally, the negative image looks a lot like Marcone.
Harry and John both have an instinctive protective reaction toward women and children. Both have learned, for different reasons, that they have to restrain and discipline that tendency. Both are highly intelligent, self-disciplined, and capable. Etc.
Just as Michael is a better man than Harry, his moral reverse, Nicodemus, is a worse man than Harry's moral reverse, John.
Yeah, I completely agree that no mortal is ever really in control where a Coin is concerned. The only absolute control a mortal can have with a Coin is the decision to refuse it.
Does Marcone understand that? We don't know yet. Has he taken some kind of protective precautions (via Monoc or whatever)? We don't know. We just don't have enough data.
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I think the Denarians play in a different league from Gard. I also think while she make be acting as muscle for Marcone, she actually works for Vadderung and his best interests.
Ivy is full on Archive now, she has no boss, nor was she ever friends with Marcone as far as that goes.
Eldest Gruff knew about them. Maybe she's not on a first name basis with Tessa or Nic, but I don't think she could operate for very long without at least knowing "terrifying demons, run away" and "Potential Dennis The Mennis tactics, equally cursed, dodge small projectiles at all costs." I'm not sure if the Fallen can turn a valkyrie, but they managed a Genoskwa, so who knows.
I guess an Eldest Sidhe is maybe not the lowest bar I could set compared to Gard. But her job is also explicitly information... mongering? About the supernatural. I'm not sure if Marcone has a subscription deal, or if it's paid by the word. Maybe both, depending on the words.
LordDresden, I actually really, really like your hypothesis about the mirror image thing. I'm pretty much convinced. If not literal, perfect opposites in all things, then just super close thematic counterweights.
If you apply that to Marcone? In Mirror Mirror, and then his connection with the Archive, and then the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy? I think you can chart the rest of his course through the series.
I'll refrain from getting into the details, because now I gotta go construct a big, rambling WAG... tomorrow.
That's why I'm not addressing those other points, Mira. I will say that Marcone's friendship with Ivy was originally a misunderstanding. I just meant linked in that they could be traced to that event, and then maybe some thematics on top of that. But now I just got an idea for what they could be, and I want to iron out the idea before I go blabbing and confuse everyone. Mostly myself.
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That's why I'm not addressing those other points, Mira. I will say that Marcone's friendship with Ivy was originally a misunderstanding. I just meant linked in that they could be traced to that event, and then maybe some thematics on top of that. But now I just got an idea for what they could be, and I want to iron out the idea before I go blabbing and confuse everyone. Mostly myself.
I'm confused because I don't remember Marcone having a friendship with Ivy. Harry, yes, Kincaid, yes, but not Marcone, while he was very concerned about her on the island, she was a child, he is responsible for a comatose child, that's the connection. Have to read the whole book over, but clearly the Denarians were up to something, the whole ritual thing they were in the middle of when Harry and company came to the rescue. Harry said it was all above his head, in short he didn't know what they were up to exactly but he thought it was to get access to the Archive, but why did they need Marcone? Perhaps knowing his hunger for power they were going to transfer the Archive into his head? In that process Marcone got enough knowledge to know where Namshel's coin was and latched on to it.
Does Marcone understand that? We don't know yet. Has he taken some kind of protective precautions (via Monoc or whatever)? We don't know. We just don't have enough data.
I think Marcone may very well understand that, but here is the deal on that, all of us from time to time give into temptation. Marcone may have just enough hubris to think he is the exception to that rule.
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Really? I have to go back and read it, if I remember correctly Harry didn't know what it was...
Harry didn't know at the time of the Soulgaze.
He figured it out later.
... his responsibility for what happened to the girl hasn't done anything to make him a better person. He has done little to atone for what he did that ruined her life, and that of her family ...
Except, he has.
He's continuing to keep the injured girl safe. He's actively pursuing everything he can find to restore her.
His "but no children" policy (around crime) comes more-or-less directly from having harmed a child originally.
And he has taken on Beckitt, and is doing his best to protect her, while her daughter is vegetative.
Has he completely reformed to become a "good person" No of course not.
But Harry learned (via Soulgaze) about this deep core element that fundamentally informs Marcone and gives him that extra bit of drive. And later deduced that the accidental shooting of Amanda Beckitt was that deep core.
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Harry didn't know at the time of the Soulgaze.
He figured it out later.
That's my point, but he also figured a whole lot more about Marcone.. While what happened to that little girl is a source of shame and maybe one decent thing about Marcone, basically he is still a murdering monster..
But Harry learned (via Soulgaze) about this deep core element that fundamentally informs Marcone and gives him that extra bit of drive. And later deduced that the accidental shooting of Amanda Beckitt was that deep core.
Yes, but back to "The Godfather," the Godfather rejected the selling of narcotics by his family because it got kids hooked, if I remember correctly.. He also met out justice, when justice as he saw it wasn't met out, as in the case of the baker's daughter in the opening scenes at the wedding.. However this doesn't make him less of a murdering monster, just a more complex monster.
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That's my point, but he also figured a whole lot more about Marcone.. While what happened to that little girl is a source of shame and maybe one decent thing about Marcone, basically he is still a murdering monster..
Yes, but back to "The Godfather," the Godfather rejected the selling of narcotics by his family because it got kids hooked, if I remember correctly.. He also met out justice, when justice as he saw it wasn't met out, as in the case of the baker's daughter in the opening scenes at the wedding.. However this doesn't make him less of a murdering monster, just a more complex monster.
And a tragic one. In the old Godfather story, Michael Corleone originally intended to 'go straight' when he got out of the military. A combination of circumstances, family ties, and bad decisions instead turned him into the very thing he wanted to avoid being.
Which might have overtones of what could happen to Marcone.
As for Marcone being bad...well, yes. As others have pointed out, you have to balance off the good he does with the evil, and he does a lot of evil. Yeah, he protects kids from being directly targeted...but his very efficiency at his criminal activities means that the flow of drugs, prostitution, etc. is increased under his rule. It's just quieter, with less direct, violent collateral damage. But it still does harm. Marcone might prevent kids from being murdered directly, but the drugs his organization moves addict their parents. The corruption he encourages helps feed the corruption of the city government (granted Chicago corruption predates Marcone, but he feeds it). The money he skims off from government and business corruption is money that isn't going to legitimate purposes.
It's only more complicated post Changes, when the ill-gotten monies help keep Murphy's Chicago defense force in business.
Marcone is a very complex bad guy...but he's still a bad guy...so far.
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Marcone is a very complex bad guy...but he's still a bad guy...so far.
Yup, he is still a monster.. I believe there is a WOJ somewhere where he said he considered making Marcone a Holy Knight. I actually thought that might happen at one point when we first meet him, and his aiding Harry in the early books.. However he isn't exactly in the Michael Corleone mold either as far as we can tell. A series of events shaped Michael Corleone, the gunning down of his father followed by being beaten up by that corrupt cop, followed by his beloved wife being blown up before his eyes, his need for revenge. While it is true, all the elements that made Michael what he became were there the whole time, it was life's events that shaped him into what he ultimately became. In the case of Marcone, the pieces were there the whole time, the tragedy of that little girl I think hits at his vanity more than his sense of right and wrong. By that I mean yes, he'd do anything to undo what happened to that little girl, not just because it would right a wrong done to her, but more importantly for him.. As you point out Marcone has no problem running a crime empire that kills and worse to lots of children, but to quote the Corleone family, "that's business," nothing personal about it. What happened to that little girl was his fault, a personal shame, a stain he wants to remove from his conscience. However unless he can get past the other harm he does every day as "just business," he will remain a monster.