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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on December 20, 2024, 03:09:04 AM
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I think with Twelve Months we will reach a crescendo of continuity errors. Well, maybe Peace Talks and Battle Ground was where the crescendo occured and Twelve Months will contain the coda of the continuity errors we have been seeing for a long time now. The topic of continuity errors isn’t anything new, but I noticed how both frequent and egregious they became in Peace Talks and Battle Ground and I am seeing them in my most recent reread of Skin Game, which I’m only half way through.
It is particularly noticeable in Peace Talks when Harry tells Lara while they are doing some staff training that he has a guy watching Justine but at the end of Battle Ground Lara berates Harry for not telling her that he had someone watching Justine.
In Skin Game, while Butters was telling Harry all the reasons why he was losing trust in him, he told Harry that his ghost told Butters and company that he was dead and gone. Of course, that didn’t happen at all. Harry’s ghost self specifically told Butters that he didn’t know if his condition was permanent. It was Mort who was certain that Harry having produced a shade meant that the real Harry was dead and gone.
There is also the dream sequence in Skin Game where Harry sees multiple versions of himself and Molly driving down the same road. These errors are not errors at all, but clues to the fact that a multiverse is in existence. Actually, I think that is pretty obvious by now to just about everyone. I think what isn’t obvious is what this will lead to. It will lead to a confrontation and conclusion in Mirror Mirror.
The real significance of Mirror Mirror won’t be Harry meeting his evil self. The Harry that made one bad choice in Grave Peril that led to series of other bad choices. Superficially, that is exactly what will happen, but I suspect the greater significance of this meeting is it will lead to a fulcrum event. When all the alternate versions of Harry and company will settle onto a single path, for better or for worse.
All the slightly different versions don’t necessarily have to become one; though I suppose that might happen, but either our Harry wins and all the other versions of Harry can continue to fight the good fight or all of them are tainted or cut short by Alt-Harry’s path.
I think with the conclusion of Mirror Mirror, we will see the end of the Brighter Future Society and the Better Future Society seeming to exist at the same time, along with other minor contradictions, unless Jim makes a real mistake and none of the Beta readers spot it.
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Here's to hoping in the Evil Harry 'verse that everything else is definitively better - like Murphy still alive, Molly neither the Winter Lady nor under the White Counsel's sword, Susan still alive and raising Maggie, the Red Court and Outsiders in their places or maybe even defeated, etc. - so Harry knows if he'd have made different decisions that turned him evil, the world and the people he loved would be much better off. Fulcrum, indeed, plus personal depression.
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I agree. I think that the best evidence would be a continuity error in Peace Talks and Battle Ground. They were originally written as one book before coming out as a two-parter.
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Here's to hoping in the Evil Harry 'verse that everything else is definitively better - like Murphy still alive, Molly neither the Winter Lady nor under the White Counsel's sword, Susan still alive and raising Maggie, the Red Court and Outsiders in their places or maybe even defeated, etc. - so Harry knows if he'd have made different decisions that turned him evil, the world and the people he loved would be much better off. Fulcrum, indeed, plus personal depression.
Oh no. That would be awful.
I think in the Evil Harry verse there would be no Maggie, and that is what convinces our Harry that he did the right choice.
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But you KNOW how much Butcher likes to torture Dresden.
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Yes, I know. I am very aware, but I am not forced to like it. With moderation, it is ok, but sometimes it is too much, and he has already suffered more than enough.
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Yes, I know. I am very aware, but I am not forced to like it. With moderation, it is ok, but sometimes it is too much, and he has already suffered more than enough.
Agreed. One can go to that well too many times, and it gets boring after a while.
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Agreed. One can go to that well too many times, and it gets boring after a while.
Agreed.
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Here's to hoping in the Evil Harry 'verse that everything else is definitively better - like Murphy still alive, Molly neither the Winter Lady nor under the White Counsel's sword, Susan still alive and raising Maggie, the Red Court and Outsiders in their places or maybe even defeated, etc. - so Harry knows if he'd have made different decisions that turned him evil, the world and the people he loved would be much better off. Fulcrum, indeed, plus personal depression.
I'm pretty sure it's going to be the reverse of that; things will be much worse in the Mirrorverse.
The book is particularly taking inspo from the old ST:TOS episode (where everything was worse).
The other thing I expect we'll see a lot of influence from is the old Jimmy Stewart movie It's a Wonderful Life, where the protag gets to see the alt-timeline if he hadn't been there just being himself, being a good person.
Susan _will_ be there... but maybe as a fully-turned Rampire? Not Harry's friend! No Maggie-Jr, ofc.
EvilHarry will be allied with Mavra.
Murphy will have spotted EvilHarry as a bad guy, and thus have zero trust for HarryPrime.
Michael won't have retired the way he did; he might be dead, he might just be much worse off -- loss and tragedy within his own family?
Worst of all, of course -- EvilHarry will wear a hat.
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Worst of all, of course -- EvilHarry will wear a hat.
Oh yes. This.
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Oh yes. This.
The question thus becomes: what will we see on the cover?
Will we see two Harrys fighting?
Will there be any hats?
Will they be fighting over a hat?
Maybe... an Evil Hat?
And, looping back to my "Soulgaze" thread -- will Harry Soulgaze Harry??!? :o
;D
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The question thus becomes: what will we see on the cover?
Will we see two Harrys fighting?
Will there be any hats?
Will they be fighting over a hat?
Maybe... an Evil Hat?
And, looping back to my "Soulgaze" thread -- will Harry Soulgaze Harry??!? :o
;D
And will he have a goatee?
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The question thus becomes: what will we see on the cover?
Will we see two Harrys fighting?
Will there be any hats?
Will they be fighting over a hat?
Maybe... an Evil Hat?
And, looping back to my "Soulgaze" thread -- will Harry Soulgaze Harry??!? :o
;D
This is so awesome! I laughed at the evil hat joke and I can't believe I never thought about Harry soulgazing himself. That is incredibly clever.
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This is so awesome! I laughed at the evil hat joke ...
Merry Christmas, or Happy Hannukah, should you celebrate either of those (or pagan Yule, or Dongzhi, or any other day special to you & yours).
Or enjoy just because! :D
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Thank you! Same for you! I hope you and your family have a great time.
I am a catholic, so I am celebrating. But actually I would celebrate anyways because December 25 is my birthday :)
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... But actually I would celebrate anyways because December 25 is my birthday :)
Well then Happy Birthday too !!!
(my son's b'day is tomorrow!)
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Thank you! And Happy birthday for him :)
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Happy belated birthday! And a Happy New Year to all! ;D
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Thank you! ;D
And Happy New Year!
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Yes, I know. I am very aware, but I am not forced to like it. With moderation, it is ok, but sometimes it is too much, and he has already suffered more than enough.
I agree, JB overdoes it on that sometimes. I've thought that throughout the series. It's natural, given Harry's situation and life, that he'll often encounter painful situations and choices and problems, but sometimes JB lays it on too thick.
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I'm pretty sure it's going to be the reverse of that; things will be much worse in the Mirrorverse.
The book is particularly taking inspo from the old ST:TOS episode (where everything was worse).
The other thing I expect we'll see a lot of influence from is the old Jimmy Stewart movie It's a Wonderful Life, where the protag gets to see the alt-timeline if he hadn't been there just being himself, being a good person.
Susan _will_ be there... but maybe as a fully-turned Rampire? Not Harry's friend! No Maggie-Jr, ofc.
EvilHarry will be allied with Mavra.
Murphy will have spotted EvilHarry as a bad guy, and thus have zero trust for HarryPrime.
Michael won't have retired the way he did; he might be dead, he might just be much worse off -- loss and tragedy within his own family?
Worst of all, of course -- EvilHarry will wear a hat.
If we've got to do the alternity story (I've commented before that I tend to dread those, though I've seen exceptional good ones), what I would want to see is that EvilHarry's other choices led to both good and evil outcomes that didn't happen here, and some good and evil outcomes that happened here didn't there.
The thing is that every choice has effects, which in turn cause more effects, and every choice has good and bad consequences stemming from it. I'll be disappointed if AlterHarry's choices led to either all-better or all-worse, because that's not not how choices work.
For an example from our time line: Harry's unwise decision (and it was unwise, from the POV of Harry at that time) to hang out with Red-infected Susan led to Maggie. That's good. It also led to Shiro's agonizing torture-murder. That's not good. Maggie's existence is good...but it also enabled Harry's enslavement to Mab. That's not good.
All choices produce multiple effects, even within a timeline, it's very rare for a choice to produce no good or no bad.
I'm sure the other time line will be worse overall, otherwise the story would be pointless. But there really should be both good and bad from whatever the decision was.
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This is so awesome! I laughed at the evil hat joke and I can't believe I never thought about Harry soulgazing himself. That is incredibly clever.
That's an idea I never thought about! It's a good question, I'd love to see someone ask it of JB (if they haven't already somewhere). Would it even work?
For that matter, suppose someone broke the Fifth Law, and as a result a Wizard met up with himself or herself within one's own time line. Could you soulgaze yourself? That is, could, say, 50 year old Harry soulgaze 200 year old Harry?
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So many possibilities
If we've got to do the alternity story (I've commented before that I tend to dread those, though I've seen exceptional good ones), what I would want to see is that EvilHarry's other choices led to both good and evil outcomes that didn't happen here, and some good and evil outcomes that happened here didn't there.
The thing is that every choice has effects, which in turn cause more effects, and every choice has good and bad consequences stemming from it. I'll be disappointed if AlterHarry's choices led to either all-better or all-worse, because that's not not how choices work.
For an example from our time line: Harry's unwise decision (and it was unwise, from the POV of Harry at that time) to hang out with Red-infected Susan led to Maggie. That's good. It also led to Shiro's agonizing torture-murder. That's not good. Maggie's existence is good...but it also enabled Harry's enslavement to Mab. That's not good.
Well, some of keep thinking Maggie's existence is not good :D
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If we've got to do the alternity story (I've commented before that I tend to dread those, though I've seen exceptional good ones), what I would want to see is that EvilHarry's other choices led to both good and evil outcomes that didn't happen here, and some good and evil outcomes that happened here didn't there.
The thing is that every choice has effects, which in turn cause more effects, and every choice has good and bad consequences stemming from it. I'll be disappointed if AlterHarry's choices led to either all-better or all-worse, because that's not not how choices work.
For an example from our time line: Harry's unwise decision (and it was unwise, from the POV of Harry at that time) to hang out with Red-infected Susan led to Maggie. That's good. It also led to Shiro's agonizing torture-murder. That's not good. Maggie's existence is good...but it also enabled Harry's enslavement to Mab. That's not good.
All choices produce multiple effects, even within a timeline, it's very rare for a choice to produce no good or no bad.
I'm sure the other time line will be worse overall, otherwise the story would be pointless. But there really should be both good and bad from whatever the decision was.
I agree , I also think it gets very complicated, because sometimes a bad choice leading to evil, can end up leading to good because the results of the evil choice can force someone into making the ultimate right choice... ??? Yeah, I know but it is true.. I also think an alternate timeline with "Evil Harry" instead of "Good Harry" would be just too simplistic and leave most of us very unsatisfied.
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I agree , I also think it gets very complicated, because sometimes a bad choice leading to evil, can end up leading to good because the results of the evil choice can force someone into making the ultimate right choice... ??? Yeah, I know but it is true.. I also think an alternate timeline with "Evil Harry" instead of "Good Harry" would be just too simplistic and leave most of us very unsatisfied.
You reminded me of "The Good Place" Mira. Such a brilliant show. In a moment they were discussing the statistics of the balance of every person life. It was pretty much impossible for a person to see all the consequences of every single action. And they were common people living ordinary lives. Imagine famous people, influentiall politics, kings and, if we had to extrapolate, powerful wizards.
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Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to walk to Edmonton to give $85 to a snail charity.
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Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to walk to Edmonton to give $85 to a snail charity.
Well, snails do have their place in nature and deserve support.. ::)
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... Maggie's existence is good...but it also enabled Harry's enslavement to Mab. That's not good ...
Au contraire: Harry getting Winterknight'ed is an incredibly good thing.
Harry's a Starborn, with notable anti-Outsider abilities.
Winter is the primary force opposing Outsiders, protecting Creation at the Outer Gates; and the Knight is "Winter's Champion."
A Starborn Winter Knight? Huge, huge power-up for Harry Dresden in protecting Creation; huge, huge power-up for Mab's WK (compared to Slate). win-win all 'round
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... The thing is that every choice has effects, which in turn cause more effects, and every choice has good and bad consequences stemming from it. I'll be disappointed if AlterHarry's choices led to either all-better or all-worse, because that's not not how choices work.
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All choices produce multiple effects, even within a timeline, it's very rare for a choice to produce no good or no bad.
I'm sure the other time line will be worse overall, otherwise the story would be pointless. But there really should be both good and bad from whatever the decision was.
This is a good point, so here's a few Good Things that I've been hoping & semi-expect Harry!Prime will take away from the Mirror verse:
- with generally-bad-stuff happening, I expect the White Council will have fallen, gone. With the WC out of the way, I think the Black Council will work more openly... and Harry!Prime will gain invaluable insights into who is on the BC, what their strategies are.
- with hat!Harry being a BadGuy(tm) (not protecting Chicago nearly as much), John Marcone will have leaned-in even further in that direction... maybe even bordering on being a GoodGuy(tm)??!? Once again: possible lessons for Harry!Prime to learn, and apply back home. This ties particularly into my WAG that Wizard-of-Chicago Harry, having elevated Johnny Marcone to Baron, and being in possession of Amoracchius=Excalibur, is going to turn Marcone into King Arthur (wasn't it Nicodemus who remarked what a good King he would have made?)
- Mab will have two Winter Knights on-hand!!! :o (The Mothers are gonna be so pissed) Dunno if Mirror!WK is gonna be Lloyd Slate or not, but I expect Mirror!Mab will try to leverage this situation somehow, and her passion for "balance" suggests it won't be an anti-Summer move, but an anti-Outsider one.
- in an explicit parallel with the ST:TOS episode Mirror Mirror where Kirk persuades(?) Lt. Marlena Moreau & Mirror!Spock to use the Tantalus Field to oppose Mirror!Kirk & the Terran Empire, Harry!Prime will Soulgaze Mirror!Karrin & Mirror!Michael (and/or other members of his Scooby Gang) to persuade them / assist them in reversing course on the Mirrorverse's slide toward the darkness.
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Mm, maybe Marcone is even called Arthur. We do not know his real name.
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Mm, maybe Marcone is even called Arthur. We do not know his real name.
That whole "secret identity / hidden ancestry" bit is certainly part of some versions of the Arthur legendarium... I like it!
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Au contraire: Harry getting Winterknight'ed is an incredibly good thing.
Harry's a Starborn, with notable anti-Outsider abilities.
Winter is the primary force opposing Outsiders, protecting Creation at the Outer Gates; and the Knight is "Winter's Champion."
A Starborn Winter Knight? Huge, huge power-up for Harry Dresden in protecting Creation; huge, huge power-up for Mab's WK (compared to Slate). win-win all 'round
No, it isn't. It might make Harry more badass, but 'more badass' is independent of 'good'. Taking up a Coin would make Harry more badass, too, but it wouldn't be a Good Thing.
For Harry, being enslaved by Mab is by definition bad. The fate of Lloyd Slate alone is proof enough of that.
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Bad for Harry, probably. Bad for the Dresden reality, and everything and everybody that Harry loves? Almost assuredly not - unless you think the Outsiders prevail notwithstanding power-upped Harry's best efforts, and the series ends with Empty Night.
I think the bigger Qs are whether Harry is the Jon Snow of this series and he's not the hero who prevails over the Outsiders, and whether Harry survives at the end.
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No, it isn't. It might make Harry more badass, but 'more badass' is independent of 'good'. Taking up a Coin would make Harry more badass, too, but it wouldn't be a Good Thing.
For Harry, being enslaved by Mab is by definition bad. The fate of Lloyd Slate alone is proof enough of that.
The thing is I don't think Mab wants an enslaved Knight. She wants her Knight to be loyal, Slate wasn't, that is why he met the fate he met. She also wants a Knight who will follow orders, but at the same time use his own head. While Harry may piss her off when he follows orders his way and not hers, she also trusts his judgement. That's why I think the Knight is a mortal human and not one of the Fae. In a way, her Knight is another check on her absolute power and she knows it. Mab has to have a Knight who will stand up to her when needed, not a slave who follows every order to the letter. That's why though pissed, she is pleased and says so when Harry defies her.
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For Harry, being enslaved by Mab is by definition bad. The fate of Lloyd Slate alone is proof enough of that.
Harry thinks so.
But he's not actually "enslaved." He's caught in a bargain he cannot currently escape from; but it's a bargain he substantively got to shape, to set some baselines. He's continuously pushing back against Mab, standing up for what he thinks is right.
And we have the word of both Mother Summer and Uriel, that Harry can keep being Harry, can keep on pushing back, keep on being himself.
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Harry thinks so.
But he's not actually "enslaved." He's caught in a bargain he cannot currently escape from; but it's a bargain he substantively got to shape, to set some baselines. He's continuously pushing back against Mab, standing up for what he thinks is right.
And we have the word of both Mother Summer and Uriel, that Harry can keep being Harry, can keep on pushing back, keep on being himself.
Doesn't matter what Harry thinks, he may think he is being enslaved, but he doesn't act enslaved. That's the whole point of Uriel's seven words, in the end it's up to Harry, and he remains himself. Harry has a vital job as Winter Knight, just as Rashid does as Gatekeeper, it requires that they are who they are, Mab knows that.
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Doesn't matter what Harry thinks, he may think he is being enslaved, but he doesn't act enslaved. That's the whole point of Uriel's seven words, in the end it's up to Harry, and he remains himself. Harry has a vital job as Winter Knight, just as Rashid does as Gatekeeper, it requires that they are who they are, Mab knows that.
Nevertheless, Harry isn't free. Just for a current example, there's the compulsory marriage to Lara. At the end of Battleground, Harry is musing about just how trapped he is.
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Nevertheless, Harry isn't free. Just for a current example, there's the compulsory marriage to Lara. At the end of Battleground, Harry is musing about just how trapped he is.
No, he isn't free, but none of us are really, it depends on how you look at it. We have to see how this latest order from Mab plays out. At the moment it is an order, but nothing that simple for either Harry or Lara, neither responds well to "orders." Yes, there is a physical attraction there, part because there just is for a number of reasons and part because of White Vampire "chemistry" or whatever it is. Yes, it is an order, the inclination of both Harry and Lara is not just to say "no" but "HELL NO!" However both Lara and Harry are very rational beings, and even if it doesn't seem that way now, they do have a series of choices to make based on whatever information they receive or events of the moment. If both can see a real need for this union, it will happen, because it must happen. If both cannot see a real need for this union, it won't happen no matter how much pressure Mab cares to lay on.. And if it doesn't, she will smile and say," at last the Knight I've been looking for.." I wouldn't at all be shocked if it turns out to be just another one of her little tests and exercises that she feels are needed to shape the star born one destined to lead the troops in the final BAT.
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Nevertheless, Harry isn't free. Just for a current example, there's the compulsory marriage to Lara...
Nevertheless, Harry isn't free. Just for a current example, there's little Maggie -- and Bonea -- and his responsibilities there.
Nobody is "free" in the sense of being unencumbered by any obligations to others.
Harry's obligations to Mab run a bit to the brutal side of things, it's true. Still, it's the life Harry chose.
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So here is a thought, tangent to the multiverse hypothesis. Are the microfictions, and I am specifically thinking of Morgan's, from the POV of the, for lack of a better term, "main timeline" versions of the character?
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So here is a thought, tangent to the multiverse hypothesis. Are the microfictions, and I am specifically thinking of Morgan's, from the POV of the, for lack of a better term, "main timeline" versions of the character?
Ah! That is a very clever idea. I like the way your mind works.
Mmm, perhaps a rereading is in order.
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I really like this idea. I feel like Jim usually has the next couple of books in his head at any time so he could definitely had started this multiverse idea back in Cold Days with the Molly car scene. Based on it and the continuity errors we've seen, I suspect that there will only be a few timelines that are dealt with or that interact with other. It'll be more like Fringe than Rick and Morty in that respect.
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Harry's obligations to Mab run a bit to the brutal side of things, it's true. Still, it's the life Harry chose.
Is she? Or does she have to be hard so that humanity can survive? We are always assuming that Mab is this evil monster because Harry was so afraid of her in the early books.. Is she? I think Rashid is right, neither the White Council nor many others fully understand the battle he and Harry wage to keep the world safe from Outsiders.. I also don't think Rashid would serve an evil monster.
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To be honest, Mab was quite hard in her first appearances. I mean, we have no reason to believe she is evil per se but she is not only ruthless but apparently a sadist. Later, that was not so much the case. So, even when I agree with you Mira that Harry was quite biased in his storytelling, there are some facts that justified his perception.
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The statement that none of us are really free, makes me think of a t-shirt I saw once.
It read " I'd be Unstoppable if not for Law Enforcement & Physics."
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Ruthless? absolutely
Sadist? maybe, but if so it's combined with a strong " pain is an excellent motivator / pain is the best teacher " position. I don't think she's taking pleasure in inflicting the pain, but in the end result.
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The statement that none of us are really free, makes me think of a t-shirt I saw once.
It read " I'd be Unstoppable if not for Law Enforcement & Physics."
:)
Ruthless? absolutely
Sadist? maybe, but if so it's combined with a strong " pain is an excellent motivator / pain is the best teacher " position. I don't think she's taking pleasure in inflicting the pain, but in the end result.
Perhaps, but I believe Jim did a little retcon with Mab. In Changes I believe she explicitly says she is not cruel, but in the first books that is not the case.
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Doesn't need to be retcon, could just be Harry getting a better understanding of Mab.
For that matter, how much does her mantle dictate her actions. The Winter Queen Mantle may react to disobedience in a way similar to the Winter Lady Mantle reacts to intimacy. And I wonder how the incident with Carlos looked from his perspective. Did Molly suddenly go silent and violent, or did she still seem to be herself?
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Doesn't need to be retcon, could just be Harry getting a better understanding of Mab.
For that matter, how much does her mantle dictate her actions. The Winter Queen Mantle may react to disobedience in a way similar to the Winter Lady Mantle reacts to intimacy. And I wonder how the incident with Carlos looked from his perspective. Did Molly suddenly go silent and violent, or did she still seem to be herself?
I think Harry is getting a better understanding of Mab. That little journey to the Outer Gates and conversation with Rashid in Cold Days, helped him to understand what is at stake. I believe there is also I think a conversation he has with Mab in Battleground, where Harry finally gets it. Mab is what she is because of the battle she had to fight, has fought for a millennia, a misstep on her part, and humanity loses. And yes, she has sold bits of her soul over that time, just to be cursed as a cold cruel queen by the likes of Harry who now understands, and the likes of those who will never understand.
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I really like this idea. I feel like Jim usually has the next couple of books in his head at any time so he could definitely had started this multiverse idea back in Cold Days with the Molly car scene. Based on it and the continuity errors we've seen, I suspect that there will only be a few timelines that are dealt with or that interact with other. It'll be more like Fringe than Rick and Morty in that respect.
Jim has said that, from the beginning, he had envisioned 20 novels + BAT.
The PT/BG split pushed it up to 21, and the next book "Twelve Months" is new (not in the original plan), so he's now calling it 22 +BAT.
That's not to say he had every detail of every book solidly planned out.
For example: Butters was originally planned as a strictly comic-relief minor character; his whole "magic Batman" personna, all the "spotlight time" as a big piece of Harry's "Scooby-Gang," becoming a KotC, and the male-fantasy-throuple with hot-werewolf-babes, that was all unplanned.
For example: Jim didn't know, as he started Changes, which "power-up" Harry would choose when he needed it. It was only after writing some, that he realized the WK was the one to pick; but before that Jim had considered both Lasciel's Coin & Kemmler's Dark hallow to be possible ways to write it.
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For example: Jim didn't know, as he started Changes, which "power-up" Harry would choose when he needed it. It was only after writing some, that he realized the WK was the one to pick; but before that Jim had considered both Lasciel's Coin & Kemmler's Dark hallow to be possible ways to write it.
WOJ on that? I mean after writing the way he did about both Denarians and Dark Hallow, it is pretty obvious that they weren't the way for Harry to go, as Jim had written him up to that point.. Neither simply fit him, end of story.
For example: Butters was originally planned as a strictly comic-relief minor character; his whole "magic Batman" personna, all the "spotlight time" as a big piece of Harry's "Scooby-Gang," becoming a KotC, and the male-fantasy-throuple with hot-werewolf-babes, that was all unplanned.
No, the mistake, if it were a mistake was how Jim introduced Butters in the first place. Sorry, but introducing Butters a meek little guy that loved the polka didn't make him comical, because at the same time Jim opened with how Butters was willing to sacrifice his career and spend time in an asylum rather than lie about his findings that a body brought to him just wasn't human.. So Butters became this quirky little guy of great intelligence, integrity, and yes, courage, so why not make him a Holy Knight with a hot werewolf babe for a girlfriend? Nerds do get rewarded once in a while.
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Doesn't need to be retcon, could just be Harry getting a better understanding of Mab.
For that matter, how much does her mantle dictate her actions. The Winter Queen Mantle may react to disobedience in a way similar to the Winter Lady Mantle reacts to intimacy. And I wonder how the incident with Carlos looked from his perspective. Did Molly suddenly go silent and violent, or did she still seem to be herself?
I agree about Harry changed the way he sees Mab and that affects his narration, but I still think there is some retcon involved.
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... Perhaps, but I believe Jim did a little retcon with Mab. In Changes I believe she explicitly says she is not cruel, but in the first books that is not the case.
Cruelty, of course, is relative.
The old joke goes "How do you punish a masochist? You don't spank them."
The idea of "tough love" usually involves a cruel-seeming behavior.
etc.
And then, of course... we're talking MAB, the Queen of Winter.
And, infamously, "winter is cruel" (it's a stock phrase).
Except it's not -- winter is impersonal; it just is what it is.
Mab can be absolutely horrific to somebody, without it being "cruel" on her part. Mab stands largely outside those human perspectives and moral judgements. "Simple human kindness" is another stock phrase; but it has nothing to do with Mab!
So, as awful as early-book Mab was to Harry, she wasn't necessarily being "cruel" to him.
I'll also bring up my WAG that this is part of a multi-generational long-game plan of Mab's. Old as she is and Guardian of the Outer Gates, she knows about Starborn, and that the cycle has come round again. So, my WAG is that Mab laid plans -- likely beginning about a century ago -- to gain a Starborn as her Winter Knight, to combine the inherent Starborn Outsider-resistance to the Knight she has during this most-dangerous of times. She didn't just "stumble upon" Harry as a good candidate Knight -- she arranged for Margaret to learn about Starborn phenomenon, and to become "LaFey." She arranged for the Black Council to target Margaret as a Starbabe mother. She arranged for Malcolm's death, and Harry's vanishing into the orphanage system, and Justin to adopt him. Some (perhaps most or all) of this may have been executed by her Handmaiden, but the intent behind it all was Mab's.
So early-book Mab was very much in the late-stage part of her plan. And at that point, she was all about shaping Harry; at that point she needed (or at least thought she needed) Harry to see her entirely as the Evil Queen(tm), in fulfillment of his expectations. What she was actually doing was crafting her new Knight.
If she had thought it would work better for Harry to think she was "kind," Mab would have acted in a kindly way, without feeling any kindness towards Harry.
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I agree with the first part of your WAG, I am not sure if she is involved in Malcolm's death.
And I was not talking about Mab being cruel with Harry but with her own people.
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I agree about Harry changed the way he sees Mab and that affects his narration, but I still think there is some retcon involved.
I completely agree.
For that matter, we already know Mab is sometimes cruel for its own sake. In her first meeting with Harry in his PI office, after they strike an agreement Harry thinks will protect him, she inflicts agony on his wounded hand again, and says point blank that it wasn't in response to anything Harry did or didn't do, thus their agreement didn't kick in.
"I did that for spite."
IIRC, that was pretty close to her precise words. Mab cannot lie. If she says she inflicted agony on Harry out of spite, then she inflicted agony on Harry out of spite.
No question that Harry is discovering sides to Mab that were always there, but there's no doubt in my mind that JB has changed Mab, too.
I actually think JB has quietly retconned several things and people over the course of the series, esp. Maggie Sr.'s role in things. I am quite sure he has somewhat retconned both Mab herself and the nature of the Faerie Courts as well.
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For that matter, we already know Mab is sometimes cruel for its own sake. In her first meeting with Harry in his PI office, after they strike an agreement Harry thinks will protect him, she inflicts agony on his wounded hand again, and says point blank that it wasn't in response to anything Harry did or didn't do, thus their agreement didn't kick in.
As I remember it, Mab was teaching Harry a lesson, when she decides to teach a lesson, she teaches it well. The lesson was that she can force Harry to obey her orders. One that Harry learned to well that he was willing to kill himself because he didn't want Mab to force him into doing things that made him a monster. It wasn't until Uriel's "yes, but," seven words that Harry realized that while Mab could force him to impale his hand on the letter spike, she couldn't change who he is, he is still Harry.
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I actually think JB has quietly retconned several things and people over the course of the series, esp. Maggie Sr.'s role in things. I am quite sure he has somewhat retconned both Mab herself and the nature of the Faerie Courts as well.
I agree in general, not so sure about Maggie Sr. but there is something about that. In one of the first books (the first two, I do not remember which one) Harry has a moment when he was about to do something wrong and he is stopped for what he feels is woman hand, a woman's presence. We readers got the idea that it is his mom. But it has never been addressed again and the feel we have of her is different to the one we had with the soulgaze, when we really met Maggie. So I may buy that Jim was going to do something with that Maggie protecting Harry and then he changed his mind.
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As I remember it, Mab was teaching Harry a lesson, when she decides to teach a lesson, she teaches it well. The lesson was that she can force Harry to obey her orders.
That's the first part of it, yeah. She forced Harry to stab himself in the hand with a letter opener. She was illustrating that she now had power over him, because she had 'bought' his obligation to Lea from Lea. A normal mortal, with no ties to the Fae, she couldn't have done that to. She was illustrating her power over him, in order to get him to make that '3 favors' deal.
But then, after the deal was made, she inflicted another dose of agony on him, and she said point blank that the second dose was out of spite. Mab cannot lie. If she said she hurt him out of spite, that means she hurt him out of spite.
Mab is far more than just a vicious monster...but the Queen of Winter is a vicious monster herself. It probably comes with the Winter Queen mantle.
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Mab is far more than just a vicious monster...but the Queen of Winter is a vicious monster herself. It probably comes with the Winter Queen mantle.
Or she has to appear that way to be successful in the fight at the Outer Gates? No, Mab isn't totally a vicious monster, at the end of Cold Days when her daughter was killed, it had to be done, she knew it and ordered it.. Cold vicious monster stuff, yet Harry managed to tease out a smidge of vulnerability in her about it, which she and the Enemy might see as weakness. Kringle saw apparently that something had gone down between Harry and Mab and warned Harry never to expose this aspect of Mab to anyone if he values his life. Kringle calls Mab a "proud creature," she prides herself on her image as a vicious monster.. So yeah, she might have hurt Harry out of spite, that's what vicious monsters do, but also to teach him and keep her image. Mab's image is one of the things that keep the world safe from Outsiders.
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If we've got to do the alternity story (I've commented before that I tend to dread those, though I've seen exceptional good ones), what I would want to see is that EvilHarry's other choices led to both good and evil outcomes that didn't happen here, and some good and evil outcomes that happened here didn't there.
I expect that. Superficially, it would seem good to have avoided provoking the Red Court war. But Shiro figured otherwise, that Harry provoked them into starting it when the forces were relatively evenly matched, rather than building up enough ramp numbers to hit the Council with overwhelming force after greater prep. Shiro is pretty much as close as anyone other than Mr Sunshine gets to relaying Word of God in the series.
A decade and a bit more buildup would pretty much line up with MM. We might see a mirror timeline with a shattered Council where isolated wizards are on the run as lone agents. Morgan and his apprentice Molly, for example?
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To be honest, Mab was quite hard in her first appearances. I mean, we have no reason to believe she is evil per se but she is not only ruthless but apparently a sadist. Later, that was not so much the case. So, even when I agree with you Mira that Harry was quite biased in his storytelling, there are some facts that justified his perception.
In the bigger sense, did Mab change? Or did she have a calculated reason to think that fronting as extra sadistic in her first meeting with Harry was a strategic route to getting something she wanted?
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In the bigger sense, did Mab change? Or did she have a calculated reason to think that fronting as extra sadistic in her first meeting with Harry was a strategic route to getting something she wanted?
I think she knows who and what Harry is, but he doesn't know who he is, so she is establishing who is boss.
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I think she knows who and what Harry is, but he doesn't know who he is, so she is establishing who is boss.
The "Queen" outranks the "Knight," and dominance-games seem endemic to Winter.
I don't think Mab can help herself.
OTOH, I think Mab has largely lost touch with her humanity. Harry keeps surprising her, and she regularly underestimates (is surprised by) those who still have theirs, such as Lady Winter Molly.
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The "Queen" outranks the "Knight," and dominance-games seem endemic to Winter.
I don't think Mab can help herself.
OTOH, I think Mab has largely lost touch with her humanity. Harry keeps surprising her, and she regularly underestimates (is surprised by) those who still have theirs, such as Lady Winter Molly.
Yes, as Queen, Mab does outrank her Knight, Harry, but when has a little thing like that stopped Harry? No, she was giving him a firm lesson on who is the boss.
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Yes, as Queen, Mab does outrank her Knight, Harry, but when has a little thing like that stopped Harry? No, she was giving him a firm lesson on who is the boss.
My point, though, is that I don't think the Winterqueen mantle permits Mab to allow the bearer of the Winterknight mantle to perform certain kinds of defiance; at least, not without rebuking him.
She actually likes his defiance... "finally," she says, "a knight who's worth the effort."
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She actually likes his defiance... "finally," she says, "a knight who's worth the effort."
My point also, because Mab may like Harry's spirit, she doesn't want any crap from him, especially in public. Because it is
a mixed message she is sending him. On one hand, Harry is right, the last thing she wants or needs is a mediocre Knight, she wants one that can use his own head when needed even if it isn't exactly what she ordered. On the other hand neither Winter Mantle Mab nor human Mab can afford a openly defiant Knight because that would reveal weakness, something she dare not show.
When she says finally a knight worth the effort, she usually is speaking to herself or just to Harry.
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... she doesn't want any crap from him...
It's not a matter of "want" -- The Queenmantles are much stronger than the Knightmantles.
And Mab has been subject to one for about 1000 years.
Mab cannot help but punish Dresden's defiance; the demands of the Mantle are her ever-fixed mark.
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It's not a matter of "want" -- The Queenmantles are much stronger than the Knightmantles.
And Mab has been subject to one for about 1000 years.
Mab cannot help but punish Dresden's defiance; the demands of the Mantle are her ever-fixed mark.
I think Mab has her mantle under control, that's why she is an effective queen.. She uses the mantle, it doesn't use her.