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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: TrueMonk on November 08, 2024, 10:45:29 AM
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In Cold Days when the Walker does the mental attack on Harry just outside of the Island, he yells his full name at it as part of defending from that attack.
In seems like a logical way to remember who he is in that scene. But does he also give a Walker his full name from his own lips? and does that matter for a future attack? Previously it seemed like a big deal if someone had your name like that.
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I would have to go back and reread that scene, and if you could provide the page it would be helpful. However if I have the scene right from memory, Harry also seems to present himself as what he will eventually be. If it is the same scene he has his staff planted in the ground and is calling up earth magic and he is also pulling from the power of the Winter Mantle as well. So on the surface I agree with you that normally it would be risky for Harry to give his full name, and he has never given his full name freely because it could be used against him. However inflection matters, perhaps he is saying in such a way that an Outsider couldn't repeat it, though that isn't said if I remember correctly. I also seem to remember that some of the above was a vision in his head as he was saying it.. Maybe when he is a fully mature star born wizard it won't matter if he invokes his full name or not? Or maybe he is drawing on his full name and it's power?
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I only have the audio books, but it is chapter 43 at 5:25 minutes out of 27 minutes.
You could be right that it matters that he only says it inside his own head. I have a feeling that he has done something similar earlier, but I Can't remember when it was.
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Thanks, I will check it out later, don't have time this morning but will look it up this afternoon. :)
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I found it, actually it runs about three pages in Cold Days from 417 to 420, and it is all about a battle being waged in Harry's mind. When Harry is giving his name, it is in a form of attack, he isn't worried about his name being used, he is totally pissed off and he wants to draw Shark Face out to reveal who Itself really is.. In other words Harry is under a psychic attack from Shark Face and he has had enough.
Page 417 Cold Days.
And I'd be damned if I was going to roll over for some punk Outsider and his psychic haymaker.
The words first. Damned near everything begins with words.
Harry struggles to get the words out at first then;
And I laughed. As if some freak who had never loved enough to know loss could tell me about pain.
"I AM HARRY BLACKSTONE COPPERFIELD DRESDEN!" I roared.
Then all hell begins to break lose, Harry feels free from all restraint, even he dismisses the image of Mab hanging over him.
Harry says further;
Sharkface had chosen a battle of the mind. So be it. My head, my rules.
Images of more hell breaking lose, scarlet lightning, earth and staff come into play. Then Harry furthers the challenge.
"Okay big guy," I snarled out of the dark will that even now gathered itself to attack again."Now we know who I am. Let's see who you are."
Very clear, Harry isn't at all worried that his name is going to be used against him,
Next page, Harry states why he used his name; 418
"Thrice I command thee!" I shouted focusing my will, sending it coursing into my voice, which boomed out over the landscape. "Thrice I bid thee! By my name I command thee: Tell me who you are!"
Then the Outsider appears and speaks it's name;
I AM GATEBREAKER, HARBINGER!
I AM FEARGIVER,HOPESLAER!
I AM HE-WHO-WALKS-BEFORE!
Harry is a bit shocked and surprised that his ploy worked. Suddenly he understood what the Outsider was about.. Using, no doubt, the insight gifted him by his mother back in that soul gaze with Thomas back in Blood Rites. Harry understood It was an Outsider, he further understood that when he battled HE WHO WALKS BEHIND when he was 16, that It was trying to shape him, but he didn't know what for. He goes on on page 419 What is interesting is he compares this Outsider to Mab with his insight.
It was huge, powerful, and in a way utterly different from the kinds of power I had seen before. This thing wasn't bigger
than Mab. But it was horribly, unbearably deeper than her. like a photograph of a sculpture compared to the sculpture itself. It had power at It's command that was beyond anything I had seen, beyond measure, beyond comprehension--just plain beyond.
On one hand Harry knows It is beyond any power he has, but then he realizes It has no power over him either. He refers to himself as a grain of sand on a beach. The grain of sand isn't impressed with the power of the ocean, and neither is he impressed with the power of this Outsider. He goes on and concludes with;
"Bring it on!"
The attacking voice or force in his head then retreats. Harry finds himself back on the motorcycle with Murphy as he has been the whole time the Outsider was attacking his mind. And on 420 we have the Erking saying;
"Well-done, starborn!"
I know my answer was long winded, but I think we have to view the whole scene in context, why Harry giving out his full name this time was so different from the past times when he feared to do it.
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I guess it can mean two things:
1: An outsider cannot use someone inside reality's name against them
2: Saying ones full name inside ones own head is not the same as saying it with ones own lips in the "real world"
With number 1 there is not really much to discuss because the amount of outsider interaction is too small.
With number 2. I wonder if it would be the same if it had been corpsetaker he said his full name to as a defence against a mental attack?
So when summoning someone from the Nevernever it is enough to have read their name or heard it second hand. But with a mortal it has to be heard from their own lips. I wonder how much difference it makes to have heard the name from the beings own lips when that being is from the nevernever.
Maybe there is not that much to talk about after all. I just found it interesting that it is (perhaps) the only instance where it is say ones full name.
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2: Saying ones full name inside ones own head is not the same as saying it with ones own lips in the "real world"
Since Shark Face is really the Outsider, HE WHO WALKS BEFORE, the whole attack happened inside of Harry's head.. However Harry is a starborn ergo can wield power over Outsiders. So Harry did just that, using the power of his own name and kicked some Outsider butt!
The Erking approved!
"Well done, starborn!"
Starborn is the key, I think. Since Harry is starborn and has power over Outsiders and Outsiders have no power over him, Harry can say his name, or in this case use his name without harm or fear of attack from using it.
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My personal thesis is that, for mortals, a True Name simply makes a conduit between the speaker and the Named. Harry is stubborn as can be, and uses his full being to repel Mother Winter. Against the Outsider, because he's Starborn, his full being is also enough.
Of course if he had used his Name against Mother Winter she could randomly reconnect to Harry at inconvenient times, but Outsiders are Out, and speaking Harry's name on the Outside does nothing. Bit asymmetric, since names of outsiders do call them in to reality, but eh... that's my WAG anyway :)
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Of course if he had used his Name against Mother Winter she could randomly reconnect to Harry at inconvenient times, but Outsiders are Out, and speaking Harry's name on the Outside does nothing. Bit asymmetric, since names of outsiders do call them in to reality, but eh... that's my WAG anyway :)
The difference is Harry has no power over Mother Winter, but she has power or can have power over him, she can use his name against him. In the case of Outsiders, because Harry is a star born, they have no power over him, so they cannot use his name against him.
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The difference is Harry has no power over Mother Winter, but she has power or can have power over him, she can use his name against him. In the case of Outsiders, because Harry is a star born, they have no power over him, so they cannot use his name against him.
Harry has power to affect Mother Winter, he summoned her, Titania and Mab(willing summons) in Cold Days. What he does not have is the power to compel them to obey him.
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Harry has power to affect Mother Winter, he summoned her, Titania and Mab(willing summons) in Cold Days. What he does not have is the power to compel them to obey him.
I think he doesn't have the power to "summon" them.
The thing he calls a "summoning" is more like a highly-interesting lure.
Remember when he "summoned" Lea... and got Mab.
Remember when he "summoned" Uriel (as if).
Remember the early books, where he "summoned" Toot ... which was, very explicitly, a lure-and-trap (despite how very weak a faerie Toot is).
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Some of these lures include a trap though. He would have been successfull in capturing the Erlking in Dead Beat with a circle he made pretty fast. Based on that it seems likely that if he made a circle more in league with the one which held the Loupgarou then he could have held the Erlking prisoner and bargained with him.
I think the lure vs. summon depends on the power level and relationship of the two involved. Mother winter had to respond to Harry because his request was legitimate, but he could (obviously) not have forced her to show up except though obligations between Mother Winter and Winter Knight. But with a being closer to his own power level (like the Erlking apparently) he can force the being to show up if he knows the right names, ritual ingredients etc.
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I think the lure vs. summon depends on the power level and relationship of the two involved. Mother winter had to respond to Harry because his request was legitimate, but he could (obviously) not have forced her to show up except though obligations between Mother Winter and Winter Knight. But with a being closer to his own power level (like the Erlking apparently) he can force the being to show up if he knows the right names, ritual ingredients etc.
I have to go back and read, but I seem to remember he was able to "summon" Mother Winter because he did use one of her names or titles that isn't either widely used or known. She wasn't very happy about it and that's when Mother Summer explained that since Mother Winter lost her walking stick getting around was very painful for her.
Remember when he "summoned" Lea... and got Mab.
If I remember correctly that was in Proven Guilty and the reason that time was because Lea was on ice taking the cure for Nemesis infestation.
Remember when he "summoned" Uriel (as if).
Exactly, I remember Uriel smiling at Harry's mental circle, and muttered something like, "nice try."
Remember the early books, where he "summoned" Toot ... which was, very explicitly, a lure-and-trap (despite how very weak a faerie Toot is).
Yeah, but Harry wanted Toot, and Toot came, the trapping happened once Toot showed up and couldn't resist the yummy bread that just happened to have a drop of Harry's blood on it, which trapped him.
Harry has power to affect Mother Winter, he summoned her, Titania and Mab(willing summons) in Cold Days. What he does not have is the power to compel them to obey him.
That gets a bit tricky, he can bargain, and he can get some information from them..
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I have to go back and read, but I seem to remember he was able to "summon" Mother Winter because he did use one of her names or titles that isn't either widely used or known. She wasn't very happy about it and that's when Mother Summer explained that since Mother Winter lost her walking stick getting around was very painful for her ...
I'm going to allege here that MW came not because she had to, but because she wanted to. Harry used several of the Names that apply to her; none of them really central; but all of them relevant and... interesting... to her.
I don't think the "pain" mattered to her in the slightest: she "wasn't happy" because "happy" is the kind of the antithesis of Mother Winter's personality.
... If I remember correctly that was in Proven Guilty and the reason that time was because Lea was on ice taking the cure for Nemesis infestation ...
It was Dead Beat, not PG; but yes, we presume Lea was a sidhecicle at the time.
The point, however, is that Harry summoned the Leanansidhe and got Queen Mab instead.
So the "rules of summoning" are (to cross some streams) really more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules; welcome to the writings of Jim Butcher (who delights in misleading the fans).
(I do suspect the rules are far stricter and more literal around malevolent entities like Outsiders, and the Fallen)
... Yeah, but Harry wanted Toot, and Toot came ...
My point here is that even with Toot -- one of the very-weakest of all the entities he "summons" -- Harry isn't "summoning" him, in the sense of "making him" come.
Harry is luring them, one and all; attracting their attention & giving a sense of something they want, something they're interested in.
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I don't think the "pain" mattered to her in the slightest: she "wasn't happy" because "happy" is the kind of the antithesis of Mother Winter's personality.
So you think Mother Summer wasn't telling Harry the truth or exaggerating? Can the Mothers lie or are they under the same constraint as the rest of the Fae?
My point here is that even with Toot -- one of the very-weakest of all the entities he "summons" -- Harry isn't "summoning" him, in the sense of "making him" come.
Harry is luring them, one and all; attracting their attention & giving a sense of something they want, something they're interested in.
Semantics, calling, summoning, making them come, call it what you will, there is a ritual that is performed and the being called comes.
It was Dead Beat, not PG; but yes, we presume Lea was a sidhecicle at the time.
The point, however, is that Harry summoned the Leanansidhe and got Queen Mab instead.
So the "rules of summoning" are (to cross some streams) really more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules; welcome to the writings of Jim Butcher (who delights in misleading the fans).
I may have not made myself clear, in Dead Beat Harry summons Lea, but gets Mab instead which surprises him. Because he was specific about whom he was summoning, Lea... Mab has an explanation, page 198-199 Dead Beat..
"Disturb me? Hardly. I am here only to fulfill the duties I have been obliged to take upon myself. It is no fault of thine that this summons reached my ears.
I straightened up slowly and avoided her eyes. "I had expected my godmother to come."
Mab smiled. Her teeth were small white and perfect, her canines delicately sharp. "Alas. The Leanansidhe is tied up at the moment."
On the next page Mab goes on to say that something is not right with Lea, that she is challenging her authority etc.. Harry asks her what she has done to Lea?
199 Dead Beat;
"She is bound," Mab said. "She is in some discomfort. But she is in no danger. Once she acknowledges who rules Winter, she will be restored to her station. I can ill afford the loss of so potent a vassal."
So the summons wasn't random as in calling up Lea and getting Mab instead. Mab clearly states that she came instead of Lea because Lea couldn't come, not because Harry summoned Lea and Mab felt like coming instead. And yes, in Proven Guilty we find Lea tied up or encased more accurately in ice taking the cure for Nemesis infestation. Clearly that was what Mab was telling Harry when she said that Lea was bound, in some discomfort, but going to be fine, hopefully.
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Starborn is the key, I think. Since Harry is starborn and has power over Outsiders and Outsiders have no power over him, Harry can say his name, or in this case use his name without harm or fear of attack from using it.
Furthermore, there was a WOJ that, basically, Harry is a somewhat unique case where others trying to use his name against him would instead be making themselves vulnerable rather than getting power over him. That was in reference to Harry as narrator ending SF with his name and "conjure by it at your own risk".
That might be another aspect of being starborn besides just immunity to and influence over outsiders that hasn't been explored yet.
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Furthermore, there was a WOJ that, basically, Harry is a somewhat unique case where others trying to use his name against him would instead be making themselves vulnerable rather than getting power over him. That was in reference to Harry as narrator ending SF with his name and "conjure by it at your own risk" ...
That's very interesting... do you have a cite, where we can see the whole WoJ in context?
(also, d'you know if this is another facet of the Starborn thing, or is it something else?)
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I think he doesn't have the power to "summon" them.
The thing he calls a "summoning" is more like a highly-interesting lure.
Harry does have the power to "summon," and he did summon Mother Winter in Cold Days.. Declarative statement from Mother Winter," page 320
More teeth showed. "He summoned me, the precious thing."
There is more on the page as to why Mother Winter after she was summoned proceeded to drag Harry back to her cottage. She explained to Mother Summer that Harry had used "certain names," thus was able to summon her and that he knows who the adversary was.. All of this leads up to the decision for Mother Summer to take Harry and show him the Gates so he will fully understand what is at stake..
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Harry does have the power to "summon," and he did summon Mother Winter in Cold Days.. Declarative statement from Mother Winter," page 320 ...
Hmmm.
Excellent find, TYVM!
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Furthermore, there was a WOJ that, basically, Harry is a somewhat unique case where others trying to use his name against him would instead be making themselves vulnerable rather than getting power over him. That was in reference to Harry as narrator ending SF with his name and "conjure by it at your own risk".
That might be another aspect of being starborn besides just immunity to and influence over outsiders that hasn't been explored yet.
Yes, I believe there was a Q&A session on YouTube where Jim said this. I think it was posted on YouTube. That was many years ago, probably within a year of when Cold Days came out, because someone asked Jim about the way Harry used his name like it was a weapon he could use to force the HWWBf to answer him.
Let's see, Cold Days was released November 27, 2012. So, to find that exact video, you would probably have to go through every video Jim did in 2013 or at the very end of 2012, that is still posted online.
A transcript might also by posted in the WoJ section, under Frequently Asked Questions, though there is an awful lot stuff to go through there.
OK, I looked at the WoJ section and found this. It wasn't as hard to find as I feared it would be. It came from a Q&A Jim did at a book signing in 2013 in Kansas City.
Q - "When Harry is battling Sharkface in the end, is that all in his head, or did everybody there hear?
A - And the answer to that is yes. It’s all going on in his head, and everybody there heard. Which, if you’ll remember the closing to book 1, because book 1 was written from the perspective of a guy who has already finished his story, um, all the books are really, they're him looking back, you get to the end book 1, and Harry says “My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, but conjure by it at your own risk” which, you know, there’s a reason for that. Figured I’d just throw that in there. Really, Harry’s one of those guys whose name is more dangerous to other people than it is to him, in a lot of ways, a lot of people would be vulnerable by doing that, he’s not. We’ll get to see that in the future."
I don't think we haven't seen Harry use his name like that since then. Makes me wonder when it will happen again.