ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on October 23, 2024, 08:50:16 PM
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According to the Donald Morgan micro-fiction, "That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could. From then on, we could not be sure that the child (Harry) was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis." "We" had to be The Merlin, Donald Morgan and anyone else they trusted. Perhaps it meant the entire Senior Council; who were alive at that time, or just The Merlin's closest allies on the Senior Council. It doesn't really matter. It also doesn't matter that Ebenezar disagrees with the Merlin. The Merlin, Donald Morgan and probably a significant portion of the Senior Council were afraid and are still afraid, that Harry Dresden is controlled by Nemesis, even if Harry hasn't been fully activated by Nemesis yet.
Unless Jim is playing a huge game with the readers, we know this isn't true. We also know that Elaine tried to help Justin DuMorne enthrall Harry. Elaine claimed that she was enthralled by Justin. What if it is much more simple than that and Elaine was and is "a creature of Nemesis." It also explains why Justin wanted Elaine in the first place. Why train one potential starborn when you can train two of them. Harry and Bob have both said that Elaine had more skill than Harry, just less raw power. That may have made her a better candidate for Nemesis.
I haven't found the original WoJ on what it takes to be Starborn. The birthdate is all most of us remember; and it is not just one day every 666 years, it is a period that can last a few months. Something else has to happen. I could be wrong, but I think the word I'm looking for is activate. Something has to happen to activate an individual to be more than just have the potential to be starborn.
Also, I bet the comments Jim has made about Elaine do not rule her out as being Starborn, they are just vague and do not say that Elaine is starborn and perhaps mildly suggest she isn't starborn. On top of that, we don't know what the final ingredient is that makes someone starborn, but Elaine has had contact with a Queen of Fairie, just like Harry has. It could be something a major player like one of the Queens, an Angel, Fallen Angel or even a Titan can do, to fully make someone starborn. Titania may have chosen Elaine to be Summer's starborn in case Mab failed or for other reasons, but didn't know her candidate was tainted. Lest I forget to mention this, Elaine is the main suspect; really the only suspect we currently have, for who nemfected Aurora. It certainly wasn't Lea.
From Jim's standpoint, Elaine being nemfected also explains why the idea that Elaine might be Kumori was set up. It is a writers version of a slight of hand magic trick. Create a distraction, a red herring that gets the audience looking in one direction while the real chicanery is happening elsewhere.
Elaine claims she has hidden from the Council because she doesn't trust them. It makes sense. Elaine can see how Harry has been treated, but it can also be something more than that. Nemesis doesn't want Elaine to reveal herself until the moment is right. The moment won't be right until Harry is faltering for some reason, or being hounded by the Council to the point he is ineffective or at the very moment when Harry thinks he is facing the final big boss fight one on one. Plus, keeping Elaine under wraps keeps the White Council looking in the wrong direction, looking at Harry, not knowing he is a distraction and is actually the starborn they need if the want to fight Nemesis.
Finally, Elaine might not consciously know about Nemesis. She might believe that Justin enthralled her and she came out of it when Harry killed their teacher. At the moment Justin DuMorne died, Nemesis relinquished full control of Elaine to reassess the situation and decide on it's next course of action. Eventually, Nemesis suggested Elaine go to Summer for help and gave her the means to nemfect aurora. We may find that Cowl physically gave Elaine what she needed to do the job, but Nemesis is what drove Elaine's actions.
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Elaine claims she has hidden from the Council because she doesn't trust them. It makes sense. Elaine can see how Harry has been treated, but it can also be something more than that. Nemesis doesn't want Elaine to reveal herself until the moment is right. The moment won't be right until Harry is faltering for some reason, or being hounded by the Council to the point he is ineffective or at the very moment when Harry thinks he is facing the final big boss fight one on one. Plus, keeping Elaine under wraps keeps the White Council looking in the wrong direction, looking at Harry, not knowing he is a distraction and is actually the starborn they need if the want to fight Nemesis.
I remember her saying that, but one has to wonder how did she arrive at having that opinion? Until he killed Justin, was arrested by the wardens and went on trial before the White Council with a sack over his head, Harry had never heard of the White Council. For whatever reason Justin taught him nothing about that body, you'd think Justin would have kept Elaine in the dark as well. But did he? If we can believe Elaine after Harry killed Justin she fled to and hid in the Summer Court for a period of time, was her opinion of the White Council formed there? There is also the theory that it was Elaine who carried Nemesis to the Summer Court and infected Aurora. At some point supposedly Elaine returned to the real world and attended college. We know that Mort stays off the White Council's radar, was Elaine in contact with him? Something doesn't track here, wizards unlike Harry don't advertise that they are wizards and don't talk about the White Council. Yet Elaine seems to know about about the White Council, where is she getting her information?
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Yet Elaine seems to know about about the White Council, where is she getting her information?
That much is explicable by her making low-powered contacts pretty quickly after leaving Aurora's protecting ... she probably heard about the Council being a bunch of trigger-happy Inspector Javerts from the forerunners of the paranet.
The wizard the Council should *really* be afraid of is Simon Pietrovich having faked his death to become Cowl, though. Elaine is just the apprentice.
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One last detail I forgot to mention in my original post. If Nemesis is using Elaine, when everything comes to a head, it might resemble the Babylon 5 episode Divided Loyalties, where it was revealed that the Psi Corps telepath Talia Winters had a secret personality hidden inside her, spying on the command staff at the station.
When Winters was exposed, she started screaming, "The Corps is mother. The Corps is father" and some other gibberish. I don't know what Elaine might shout at Harry, but it might look something like that scene.
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One last detail I forgot to mention in my original post. If Nemesis is using Elaine, when everything comes to a head, it might resemble the Babylon 5 episode Divided Loyalties, where it was revealed that the Psi Corps telepath Talia Winters had a secret personality hidden inside her, spying on the command staff at the station.
When Winters was exposed, she started screaming, "The Corps is mother. The Corps is father" and some other gibberish. I don't know what Elaine might shout at Harry, but it might look something like that scene.
Intriguing! Yes, and yet again Harry might be forced to kill one of the women he loved..
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I remember her saying that, but one has to wonder how did she arrive at having that opinion? Until he killed Justin, was arrested by the wardens and went on trial before the White Council with a sack over his head, Harry had never heard of the White Council. For whatever reason Justin taught him nothing about that body, you'd think Justin would have kept Elaine in the dark as well. But did he? If we can believe Elaine after Harry killed Justin she fled to and hid in the Summer Court for a period of time, was her opinion of the White Council formed there? There is also the theory that it was Elaine who carried Nemesis to the Summer Court and infected Aurora. At some point supposedly Elaine returned to the real world and attended college. We know that Mort stays off the White Council's radar, was Elaine in contact with him? Something doesn't track here, wizards unlike Harry don't advertise that they are wizards and don't talk about the White Council. Yet Elaine seems to know about about the White Council, where is she getting her information?
The existence of the White Council seems to be no secret among the magical community. Opinions about them vary widely, but Elaine would learn about them simply from being in touch with other practitioners.
Now that does touch on how little we know about the way Justin raised Harry and Elaine in detail. Obviously he didn't tell them about the Council, the Wardens appear to have come as a nasty surprise to Harry. But he must also have kept them both pretty much out of touch with the rest of the general magical community as well, or they would have heard of the White Council.
It would be very interesting, and probably very revealing, if we knew just who Justin permitted H/E to have contact with in their teenage years. I would think he would have had to tell them something about why they never met up with other magic users, or else he must have made sure their only contacts were 'controllable'.
I'd really like to know more about that period. The more I think about it, the more important it seems.
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According to the Donald Morgan micro-fiction, "That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could. From then on, we could not be sure that the child (Harry) was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis." "We" had to be The Merlin, Donald Morgan and anyone else they trusted. Perhaps it meant the entire Senior Council; who were alive at that time, or just The Merlin's closest allies on the Senior Council. It doesn't really matter. It also doesn't matter that Ebenezar disagrees with the Merlin. The Merlin, Donald Morgan and probably a significant portion of the Senior Council were afraid and are still afraid, that Harry Dresden is controlled by Nemesis, even if Harry hasn't been fully activated by Nemesis yet.
Unless Jim is playing a huge game with the readers, we know this isn't true. We also know that Elaine tried to help Justin DuMorne enthrall Harry. Elaine claimed that she was enthralled by Justin. What if it is much more simple than that and Elaine was and is "a creature of Nemesis." It also explains why Justin wanted Elaine in the first place. Why train one potential starborn when you can train two of them. Harry and Bob have both said that Elaine had more skill than Harry, just less raw power. That may have made her a better candidate for Nemesis.
I haven't found the original WoJ on what it takes to be Starborn. The birthdate is all most of us remember; and it is not just one day every 666 years, it is a period that can last a few months. Something else has to happen. I could be wrong, but I think the word I'm looking for is activate. Something has to happen to activate an individual to be more than just have the potential to be starborn.
Also, I bet the comments Jim has made about Elaine do not rule her out as being Starborn, they are just vague and do not say that Elaine is starborn and perhaps mildly suggest she isn't starborn. On top of that, we don't know what the final ingredient is that makes someone starborn, but Elaine has had contact with a Queen of Fairie, just like Harry has. It could be something a major player like one of the Queens, an Angel, Fallen Angel or even a Titan can do, to fully make someone starborn. Titania may have chosen Elaine to be Summer's starborn in case Mab failed or for other reasons, but didn't know her candidate was tainted. Lest I forget to mention this, Elaine is the main suspect; really the only suspect we currently have, for who nemfected Aurora. It certainly wasn't Lea.
From Jim's standpoint, Elaine being nemfected also explains why the idea that Elaine might be Kumori was set up. It is a writers version of a slight of hand magic trick. Create a distraction, a red herring that gets the audience looking in one direction while the real chicanery is happening elsewhere.
Elaine claims she has hidden from the Council because she doesn't trust them. It makes sense. Elaine can see how Harry has been treated, but it can also be something more than that. Nemesis doesn't want Elaine to reveal herself until the moment is right. The moment won't be right until Harry is faltering for some reason, or being hounded by the Council to the point he is ineffective or at the very moment when Harry thinks he is facing the final big boss fight one on one. Plus, keeping Elaine under wraps keeps the White Council looking in the wrong direction, looking at Harry, not knowing he is a distraction and is actually the starborn they need if the want to fight Nemesis.
Finally, Elaine might not consciously know about Nemesis. She might believe that Justin enthralled her and she came out of it when Harry killed their teacher. At the moment Justin DuMorne died, Nemesis relinquished full control of Elaine to reassess the situation and decide on it's next course of action. Eventually, Nemesis suggested Elaine go to Summer for help and gave her the means to nemfect aurora. We may find that Cowl physically gave Elaine what she needed to do the job, but Nemesis is what drove Elaine's actions.
Interesting, but there's one big potential issue: Harry and Elaine have soulgazed. Unless she was nemfected afterward, I'd think it would have shown up.
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I think the answer is whatever process or tainted item was used to nemfect Elaine wasn’t introduced or occur until the day she stayed home sick while Harry went to school. (Info taken from Harry’s discussion with Lea in Ghost Story.) It is also possible Justin did something to Elaine the day before but it didn’t take old until the next morning.
So, Harry and Elaine may have soulgazed days, weeks or even a couple of months earlier. In theory, Elaine and Harry could have soulgazed on a Sunday morning, then Justin did whatever was needed to infect Elaine that afternoon or night, and the next day when Harry came back early from school, he found Justin with a nemfected Elaine.
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I think the answer is whatever process or tainted item was used to nemfect Elaine wasn’t introduced or occur until the day she stayed home sick while Harry went to school. (Info taken from Harry’s discussion with Lea in Ghost Story.) It is also possible Justin did something to Elaine the day before but it didn’t take old until the next morning.
So, Harry and Elaine may have soulgazed days, weeks or even a couple of months earlier. In theory, Elaine and Harry could have soulgazed on a Sunday morning, then Justin did whatever was needed to infect Elaine that afternoon or night, and the next day when Harry came back early from school, he found Justin with a nemfected Elaine.
Or like a good child abuser, Justin groomed and then infected Elaine little by little... Then again would young, 14,15, or even 16 year old Harry recognize Nemesis in a soul gaze? I really doubt it, 16 year old Harry had no clue it was an Outsider that was trying to kill him, all he knew was it scared the hell out of him and he acted accordingly to survive.
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Or like a good child abuser, Justin groomed and then infected Elaine little by little... Then again would young, 14,15, or even 16 year old Harry recognize Nemesis in a soul gaze? I really doubt it, 16 year old Harry had no clue it was an Outsider that was trying to kill him, all he knew was it scared the hell out of him and he acted accordingly to survive.
Yeah, but even if he didn't understand what he was seeing, I suspect the presence of Nemesis would look bad. Harry might not understand what kind of bad, or what it meant, but I suspect it would still just look wrong.
But even if he didn't recognize what he was seeing, we need to keep in mind that you never forget what you see in a soulgaze. It's there forever, engrained on your memory. So if he learned the signs of nemfection later, he would still remember seeing them in Elaine at that time, if she was infected then.
Elaine might have been nemfected after they soulgazed, but it's hard to see it happening before.
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Yeah, but even if he didn't understand what he was seeing, I suspect the presence of Nemesis would look bad. Harry might not understand what kind of bad, or what it meant, but I suspect it would still just look wrong.
But even if he didn't recognize what he was seeing, we need to keep in mind that you never forget what you see in a soulgaze. It's there forever, engrained on your memory. So if he learned the signs of nemfection later, he would still remember seeing them in Elaine at that time, if she was infected then.
Elaine might have been nemfected after they soulgazed, but it's hard to see it happening before.
However we don't know at what point they soul gazed, did they even know what they were doing at the time? He hasn't soul gazed her since, so who knows what he would see now. Another thought, Eb did soul gaze Harry after or just before he took him in under the Doom, if the presence was there or the taint, he should have seen it.
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However we don't know at what point they soul gazed, did they even know what they were doing at the time? He hasn't soul gazed her since, so who knows what he would see now. Another thought, Eb did soul gaze Harry after or just before he took him in under the Doom, if the presence was there or the taint, he should have seen it.
I think we can be sure Eb saw the taint. The 3 eye junkie saw it. I have always suspected that part of the reason tge WC hates/fears harry is because of it. I agree with the guys who think its why people panic after soulgazing harry. One way to think of the taint is that it is a brand ( the type placed on cattle). Brands indetify cattle has belonging to someone. In some cases if owners of the cattle are scary enough no one will steal their cattle cause just because you know who they belong to and what they will do to you. Everyone sees it and knows that an outsider marked him. Could be for purely nice reasons but probably not. In Harry's case people scary themselves to death just thinking what it means. Is he an outsiders pet, food, friend or lover noone knows
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I think we can be sure Eb saw the taint
If he did, he never mentioned it.. So we can't be sure.
I have always suspected that part of the reason tge WC hates/fears harry is because of it. I agree with the guys who think its why people panic after soulgazing harry.
Since the ones who panic have been vanilla humans, it is safe to bet they never saw magical power in the raw before, and it would scare the hell out of them. However soul gazes with Marcone and a couple of other people have not produced panic, in the case of Marcone, I think he scared Harry more than the other way around. As for the others, they were reassured, even comforted by what they saw.
In some cases if owners of the cattle are scary enough no one will steal their cattle cause just because you know who they belong to and what they will do to you. Everyone sees it and knows that an outsider marked him. Could be for purely nice reasons but probably not. In Harry's case people scary themselves to death just thinking what it means. Is he an outsiders pet, food, friend or lover noone knows
I doubt that Harry is marked like an animal or is owned by the Outsiders.
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If he did, he never mentioned it.. So we can't be sure.
Since the ones who panic have been vanilla humans, it is safe to bet they never saw magical power in the raw before, and it would scare the hell out of them. However soul gazes with Marcone and a couple of other people have not produced panic, in the case of Marcone, I think he scared Harry more than the other way around. As for the others, they were reassured, even comforted by what they saw.
I doubt that Harry is marked like an animal or is owned by the Outsiders.
Im not saying he is owned by the outsiders only that he is tainted and no one has a way of telling what the taint or mark means. From the perspective of joe wizard dude has taint that marks him if he is seen under the Sight.
My WAG IS that any wizard that a) soulgazes him or b) Sees him sees the taint. And has no way of knowing what that means exactly.
Ps my guess is that the taint is part of the reasons no one seems to fully trust him.
He could be a spy and have no way of knowing
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Unless Harry looked into a mirror while using his Sight, there is no way he should know what the sign of HWWB looks like or that he even carries it. I picture Harry learning about it in one of two, maybe three ways, the last one being the most likely one.
1. Lea might have mentioned it as part of her pitch to 16 year-old Harry to get him to make a deal with her. She could have said something like this: "I see the mark of HWWB; the demon that was called up by Justin DuMorne, is upon you. That you survived meeting this creature is impressive..." My guess is Lea would see that mark every time she saw Harry. She doesn't need to call up a special power like wizards do.
2. Justin DuMorne might have mentioned it to Harry before their final fight. It could have sounded something like this: "I see you have met HWWB. His mark is upon you." The problem with this scenario is Justin would have to have been using his Sight when he was looking at Harry, and I can't think why he would want to do that.
3. Warden Morgan used to use his Sight on Harry after Harry was captured by the Wardens or just by Morgan. While Harry was bound he overheard Morgan describe the mark and name HWWB. Did anyone else on the Council use their wizard sight to look on Harrry.? Hard to say, but I don't see why anyone else would do that, except perhaps Ebenezar.
This scenario fits in nicely with Morgan using his Site to check for possible spies hiding under a veil at Mac's in Dead Beat, but avoiding looking at Harry while do so. Morgan wouldn't want to see that mark again if he could simply ignore looking at it.
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Unless Harry looked into a mirror while using his Sight, there is no way he should know what the sign of HWWB looks like or that he even carries it. I picture Harry learning about it in one of two, maybe three ways, the last one being the most likely one.
Death Masks, Harry consults with a Loa or Ulsharavas;
The Ulsharavas would have seen any shadow of an Outsider on Harry if it was there I think. It said that Harry was stained with the taint of black magic. Harry answered that not all of it was his, but admitted that he had made a bad call or two, now whether he meant when he killed Justin or not, it doesn't say. The Ulsharavas says it appreciated Harry's honesty and agrees to look into what Harry is asking. The Ulsharavas said nothing about the taint or shadow of an Outsider about him, if it was there I think the Loa would have seen it. The Loa did ask Harry why he does what he does, getting involved with the problems of others? Harry had no answer, he didn't know. The Ulsharavas remarked that maybe he should know. So either being around an Outsider leaves the taint of black magic, or whatever the Three Eye addict saw, the Ulsharavas couldn't or didn't see it.
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I do not believe Outsider-taint is that easily detected; not even via soulgaze.
The Gatekeeper -- likely the preeminent wizard in the field -- cannot reliably detect it.
If it were all that easy... there are plenty of Wardens. Just get a new Soulgaze on a suspect, and bam you found the taint.
And Nemesis is even harder than other Outsiders: Titania and Mab cannot detect it, only infer it after the fact. (I'm unclear that taint/possession is even all that common a trick amongst the Outsider crowd; do we have any other instances that we know are not Nemesis?)
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I do not believe Outsider-taint is that easily detected; not even via soulgaze.
The Gatekeeper -- likely the preeminent wizard in the field -- cannot reliably detect it.
If it were all that easy... there are plenty of Wardens. Just get a new Soulgaze on a suspect, and bam you found the taint.
And Nemesis is even harder than other Outsiders: Titania and Mab cannot detect it, only infer it after the fact. (I'm unclear that taint/possession is even all that common a trick amongst the Outsider crowd; do we have any other instances that we know are not Nemesis?)
What are you suggesting? That the taint of an Outsider is on Harry and that is what the addict saw? That Eb couldn't see it in a soul gaze, nor the Loa, nor Rashid, who I believed did his own scan of Harry with his eye? Even if he saw the spiritual scar or taint, did it really mean anything? Does it mean that Harry is possessed in any way? Or does it mean something else?
Let's check out what the exact quote is from Storm Front. page 134-135
Then something strange happened.
The young man looked up at me, and his eyes rounded and dilated, until I thought they had turned into huge black coins dotted onto his blooThey dshot eyeballs. His eyes rolled back into his head until he could hardly have been able to see, and he started to shout in a clarion voice. "Wizard!" I see you! I see you,wizard! I see the things that follow, those who walk before and He Who Walks Behind! They come, they come for you!"
The junkie said he saw things that follow, not something that is part of Harry.
Then on page 136 Harry says he had never met the junkie, and he didn't sense any magical practitioner. So how paraphrasing, "in the hell had he seen the shadow of He Who Walks Behind in Harry's wake?" Harry goes on to admit that he is marked, indelibly with the remnants of the hunter-spirit known as He Who Walks Behind, though the Outsider didn't succeed in what it was trying to do. Then he says those who know how, using the Third Eye would spot the sort of spiritual scar left from the encounter. But this was an addict, not trained to either spot the scar or taint, nor to recognize it if he saw it.
Then Harry says; page 136
only a wizard had that kind of vision, the ability to sense the auras and manifestations of magical phenomena. And that junkie had been no wizard.
That last is the important bit, that junkie had been no wizard. Didn't know Harry, or at least Harry hadn't seen him before, yet the junkie was calling Harry, wizard. Yeah, maybe he looked Harry up in the phone book, but still the junkie had to know what made a wizard to call Harry, a wizard! Let alone what an Outsider was, by name even! Harry goes on to say on the next page that the Third Eye allows wizards to see things supernaturally invisible or other things as they really are. Examples of that are when Harry made the mistake of looking at the Skin Walker with his third eye, the horror of that encounter turned him into a fetal ball, or when he saw Murphy with it and saw an angel. My point? Because he is a trained wizard, Harry knew what he was looking at.. He also said that wizards learn to be very careful with that vision because it can harm them.. As Mac told him only recently, the real vision of who he is would kill or drive Harry mad.
Yet this addict knew all of the stuff he told Harry! The important point isn't that Harry bears some spiritual scar from his encounter with HWWB as a sixteen year old, call it a taint if you want, its of no importance.. What is important is who is trying to train up and teach these addicts? This happened with Sells, ordinary man with a little talent that exploited, turned him into a sorcerer.. He was also one of those making and pushing the Third Eye drug. To what purpose?
They come, they come for you!
In other words it is a bit of a warning to Harry, the Outsiders were still after him.
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... Harry and Elaine have soulgazed. Unless she was nemfected afterward, I'd think it would have shown up.
I'm pretty sure they soulgazed right around the time they became lovers.
Plenty of romantic "gazing into one anothers' eyes"moments... Pretty darned hard to avoid, in fact!
My pick for when she got Nemfected would be at the very end; Elaine said Justin "enthralled" her, but I suspect either that the "enthrallment" was intentionally exposing her to Nemfection, or that in the dazed state just after Harry killed(?) Justin -- when we already know HWWB was in the field -- she got Nemfected as a vector into Summer.
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I'm pretty sure they soulgazed right around the time they became lovers.
Plenty of romantic "gazing into one anothers' eyes"moments... Pretty darned hard to avoid, in fact!
My pick for when she got Nemfected would be at the very end; Elaine said Justin "enthralled" her, but I suspect either that the "enthrallment" was intentionally exposing her to Nemfection, or that in the dazed state just after Harry killed(?) Justin -- when we already know HWWB was in the field -- she got Nemfected as a vector into Summer.
You could be right, but then again, depending on how early they became lovers, could have been as early as thirteen or fourteen years of age. Remember when Harry fought HWWB he had just turned sixteen, and had no clue as to what was attacking him.. Or Harry and Elaine soul gazed by accident unless specifically taught by Justin what a soul gaze was and how it worked. If it was by accident it could have happened as early as the age of twelve.. At any rate, even if he saw Nemesis or the taint of an Outsider in her, he wouldn't have known what he was seeing. He may know now, but we have never heard Harry ever talk about what he saw in his soul gaze with Elaine. He has mentioned before what he has seen in other soul gazes, but never what he saw in the one he had with Elaine.
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... At any rate, even if he saw Nemesis or the taint of an Outsider in her, he wouldn't have known what he was seeing. He may know now, but we have never heard Harry ever talk about what he saw in his soul gaze with Elaine. He has mentioned before what he has seen in other soul gazes, but never what he saw in the one he had with Elaine.
Harry has also mentioned that the Soulgaze (like other Wizards' Sight phenomena) are "do not dim with time" experiences. So Harry still remembers (with 100% clarity) the teenaged soulgaze with Elaine, and can consult it with his modern perspective.
If Outsider-traces were there -- and detectible -- modern-day Harry would know.
OTOH, you're right that it'd be really interesting to know exactly what he did see, when he soulgazed Elaine!
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What are you suggesting? ...
Mainly, I'm refuting the idea that Elaine's Nemfected-or-Not status is something a soulgaze (or any other magical inspection really) is likely to detect.
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Mainly, I'm refuting the idea that Elaine's Nemfected-or-Not status is something a soulgaze (or any other magical inspection really) is likely to detect.
Very possible, but one still has to know or have some idea of what they are looking at. At the age that Harry and Elaine soul gazed, Harry would have no clue that he was looking at Outsider taint or Nemesis. To your point, Eb soul gazed 16 year old Harry after the fight with HWWB and while Eb mentions seeing anger, he makes no mention of Harry being tainted by either an Outsider or Nemesis. I think Eb would know that kind of taint if he saw it in a soul gaze.
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I am beginning to doubt that a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. I’m not where I can grab my copy of Cold Days, but doesn’t the Gate Keeper need his special eye; that is made from the same material as the Outer Gates itself, to detect Nemesis in a Winter soldier who is wounded and is being brought back through the Gates to our reality? Granted, that the fae are not human, but Rashid used that eye to scan Harry in Turn Coat, rather than soulgazing him. So, I’m guessing Rashid’s special eye is a better tool for this purpose or possibly the only tool he has for this purpose.
Let’s look at who soulgazed Harry and why this gives us a clue about detecting Nemesis. The Merlin personally soulgazed the teenage warlock who was executed at the beginning of Proven Guilty, prior to his trial. So, this makes me think that before his trial someone from the Council must have soulgazed Harry.
I think it was Ebenezar; because I also believe it would have been mentioned if Warden Morgan or the Merlin had soulgazed Harry. In all of the occasions when Harry has talked about either of those two characters, you would think that experience would have been mentioned by now. We know Eb soulgazed Harry at some point in time, just not exactly when. In Summer Knight Harry says he “shared a soulgaze” with Eb at sometime in the past, but is non-specific about the circumstances of that soulgaze.
It may not be likely, but I suppose it is also possible that prior to his trial someone else on the Council soulgazed Harry. However, I don’t think it would be very good writing if in a future novel a member of the Wardens or anyone else on the Council; we haven’t been introduced to yet, would suddenly appear and say to Harry, “You remember me, of course. I soulgazed you right after you were captured.” That kind of writing would feel like like something I would see on the CW, some Netflix show or recent Disney series. I don’t think Jim would do that, I’m just trying to cover all possible bases here.
Here’s the main point I’m trying to make. It doesn’t matter if Ebenezar or some unknown character on the White Council soulgazed Harry. This unknown character would be someone with experience and the trust of the Senior Council. So either Eb or this notional character should have been able to recognize if Harry had been tampered with by Nemesis. Right?
Not only that, both Eb and my unknown character would have had a duty to tell the Council that Harry had been tampered with, no matter how much it would have hurt Ebenezar to do so. On the other hand, Ebenezar and my make believe character’s sworn word should have been enough for Morgan, the Merlin and the rest of the Senior Council to know that Harry was not tainted by Nemesis.
That is, unless the Wardens and Senior Council do not believe a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. It could be, the hidden personality inside someone tainted by Nemesis is buried so deep, it can’t be seen by a soulgaze, unless Nemesis wants to be seen.
Once again, I am obliquely reminded of the Babylon 5 character Talia Winter’s, who had to have a special psychic password sent to her to force her hidden personality to the surface. Lyra Alexander; the other telepath on Babylon 5, couldn’t just scan Talia to find this personality. She needed a special psychic tool to do what needed to be done. Much like the Gate Keeper needs his special eye to detect Nemesis.
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I am beginning to doubt that a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. I’m not where I can grab my copy of Cold Days, but doesn’t the Gate Keeper need his special eye; that is made from the same material as the Outer Gates itself, to detect Nemesis in a Winter soldier who is wounded and is being brought back through the Gates to our reality? Granted, that the fae are not human, but Rashid used that eye to scan Harry in Turn Coat, rather than soulgazing him. So, I’m guessing Rashid’s special eye is a better tool for this purpose or possibly the only tool he has for this purpose.
I agree for the most part, however I am not totally convinced that a soul gaze or perhaps the wizard's "third eye" might also spot it. However I also remember Rashid telling Harry not to attempt it, that it takes a huge amount of experience and then easy to get wrong. So it's possible if it was there, that Eb, because of age and experience might have spotted it, if it was there when he soul gazed young Harry, but not a sure thing. Extremely doubtful that young Harry with no experience or knowledge of Outsiders or Nemesis would have spotted it in a soul gaze with Elaine.
Let’s look at who soulgazed Harry and why this gives us a clue about detecting Nemesis. The Merlin personally soulgazed the teenage warlock who was executed at the beginning of Proven Guilty, prior to his trial. So, this makes me think that before his trial someone from the Council must have soulgazed Harry.
That was Eb, he mentions it in Blood Rites and said he saw a lot of anger, talent, and power, but nothing not redeemable.
It isn't said whether another also soul gazed Harry, what's the point of doing it twice? Though I supposed because he was his grandson Eb wanted to make sure if Harry was going to get the chop it was for the right reasons. As the Blackstaff no one would argue with him doing it.
Here’s the main point I’m trying to make. It doesn’t matter if Ebenezar or some unknown character on the White Council soulgazed Harry. This unknown character would be someone with experience and the trust of the Senior Council. So either Eb or this notional character should have been able to recognize if Harry had been tampered with by Nemesis. Right?
If we go by Molly's trial, a Warden typically does the soul gaze and testifies as to what he or she saw. Harry soul gazed Molly, and as Warden testified as to what he saw. Interesting that Morgan didn't insist on soul gazing Harry, you'd think that he would given his misgivings.
Not only that, both Eb and my unknown character would have had a duty to tell the Council that Harry had been tampered with, no matter how much it would have hurt Ebenezar to do so. On the other hand, Ebenezar and my make believe character’s sworn word should have been enough for Morgan, the Merlin and the rest of the Senior Council to know that Harry was not tainted by Nemesis.
That is, unless the Wardens and Senior Council do not believe a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. It could be, the hidden personality inside someone tainted by Nemesis is buried so deep, it can’t be seen by a soulgaze, unless Nemesis wants to be seen.
That is if the White Council is even worried about Outsiders or Nemesis, with the exception of Rashid and Harry I think it is unlikely that they are for the most part. Rashid hints at this, that even the Senior Council knows very little about what he really does at the Gates, and apparently Rashid tells them very little. When a potential young warlock is soul gazed, what they are interested in is how far down that road he or she has traveled and if he or she can be redeemed.. However I doubt they look very far beyond that.
Once again, I am obliquely reminded of the Babylon 5 character Talia Winter’s, who had to have a special psychic password sent to her to force her hidden personality to the surface. Lyra Alexander; the other telepath on Babylon 5, couldn’t just scan Talia to find this personality. She needed a special psychic tool to do what needed to be done. Much like the Gate Keeper needs his special eye to detect Nemesis.
That was also because Talia Winters was a psychic herself, and it was all part of the intrigue with the Psychcorps and Bester, it's been a while since I saw B5. However I do remember the episode where Talia was required to scan a convicted criminal before he was sentenced. Since he knew what she was going to do, the murderer in turn screwed with her mind. It is possible that Nemesis could do the same thing if it was detected in a scan.. I believe that was one of the reasons why Rashid told Harry not to attempt it.
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Interesting that Morgan didn't insist on soul gazing Harry, you'd think that he would given his misgivings.
That is if the White Council is even worried about Outsiders or Nemesis, with the exception of Rashid and Harry I think it is unlikely that they are for the most part. Rashid hints at this, that even the Senior Council knows very little about what he really does at the Gates, and apparently Rashid tells them very little. When a potential young warlock is soul gazed, what they are interested in is how far down that road he or she has traveled and if he or she can be redeemed.. However I doubt they look very far beyond that.
From the Donald Morgan Microfiction:
"From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis."
Morgan knew about Nemesis and that means that the Merlin knew. I don't think it matters if the rest of the Senior Council knew, though I would guess that least one or two of them did.
As far as the reference to Harry possibly being a "destroyer," I think that is almost certainly tied up with Harry being starborn. One more key element, or maybe the key element, that we do not yet understand about what it means to be starborn. It is probably what Martha Liberty meant when she said to Ebenezar about Harry in Summer Knight, "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk. "
That was also because Talia Winters was a psychic herself, and it was all part of the intrigue with the Psychcorps and Bester, it's been a while since I saw B5. However I do remember the episode where Talia was required to scan a convicted criminal before he was sentenced. Since he knew what she was going to do, the murderer in turn screwed with her mind. It is possible that Nemesis could do the same thing if it was detected in a scan.. I believe that was one of the reasons why Rashid told Harry not to attempt it.
I've wondered about the same thing. Can Nemesis do something that would cause serious harm to a wizard that was soulgazing a person that nemesis was hiding in? Screw with that wizards mind or what about infecting that wizard? It is something that I would consider asking Jim about the next time he does a Reddit Q&A session or if I were to see him in person at a Con or book signing.
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From the Donald Morgan Microfiction:
"From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis."
Morgan knew about Nemesis and that means that the Merlin knew. I don't think it matters if the rest of the Senior Council knew, though I would guess that least one or two of them did.
Which is an interesting statement, because if they knew what Nemesis was and feared that Harry might be under the influence, why didn't they just ask Rashid to have a look at him? Or really check Harry out with their wizard sight? And yes, it can be done.
page 339 Cold Days;
I nodded, thinking. "Okay," I said. "First, how do you know if the adversary has. . .infested someone?" "Experience," he said. "Decades of it. The Sight can help but. . . Rashid hesitated. I recognized it instantly, the hiccup in one's thoughts when one stumbled over a truly hideous memory gained with the Sight, like I had with-- Ugh. -- the naagloshii. I don't recommend making a regular practice of it," he continued. "It's an art, not a skill, and it takes time. Time, or a bit of questionable attention from the Fates and a ridiculously enormous tool." He tapped a finger against his false eye.
You'd think the Merlin, even Morgan would have experience enough, maybe Eb was the only one outside of Rashid who could handle looking at Harry with the Sight? I am thinking that maybe as Rashid said before, the Council really doesn't know what he does, because he easily could have settled the matter about young Harry being infested or not
As far as the reference to Harry possibly being a "destroyer," I think that is almost certainly tied up with Harry being starborn. One more key element, or maybe the key element, that we do not yet understand about what it means to be starborn. It is probably what Martha Liberty meant when she said to Ebenezar about Harry in Summer Knight, "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk. "
Which makes me wonder and I have written about this before whether or not the White Council was itself trying to breed it's own starborn, one that they can control.. When Margaret took matters into her own hands so to speak, the Council still got a starborn, but not one they could control. The Council knows what it wanted him or her for, but not what Margaret wanted, so Harry couldn't be trusted.
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Which is an interesting statement, because if they knew what Nemesis was and feared that Harry might be under the influence, why didn't they just ask Rashid to have a look at him? Or really check Harry out with their wizard sight? And yes, it can be done...
I think Rashid's Eye is likely the best tool; but I don't think even that is 100% foolproof. And I don't believe anyone on the Council -- not even Eb or the Merlin -- really understands what Rashid does as "Gatekeeper." It's a role that transcends the White Council, and is not subject to WC rules, or rulings. They cannot order the Gatekeeper to do anything (they can order Rashid, as WC wizard; but nothing in regards to his duties or identity as Gatekeeper).
... Which makes me wonder and I have written about this before whether or not the White Council was itself trying to breed it's own starborn, one that they can control.. When Margaret took matters into her own hands so to speak, the Council still got a starborn, but not one they could control. The Council knows what it wanted him or her for, but not what Margaret wanted, so Harry couldn't be trusted.
We are pretty sure that a "Black Council" cabal -- including Duchess Arianna & Raith Père -- had recruited Margaret LeFey to be the mother of a Starbabe that they would control. Instead, she broke free from Lord Raith ... and unexpectedly found true love, and bore a Starborn child with Malcolm Dresden!
My own theory is that it was all a plot of Mab's, in search of an adequate Knight for the upcoming apocalypse: setting Maggie first on that "starbabe" path, and then getting her out from under Black Council influence.
I think it reasonably-likely that the White Council had their own "starbabe plan," though I think there's less evidence in canonical texts or in WoJ's (anyone got cites?) ...
Here's a fun theory: Elaine was the WC's plan, and they "lost track" of her too (likely a Mab or Lea machination); then when she re-surfaced, she seemed to be a "failed attempt" (in that she carefully showed up during tests as not-quite-WC-caliber). It'd be a nice element of how Jim writes Elaine as Harry's "opposite number" in many regards.
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I think Rashid's Eye is likely the best tool; but I don't think even that is 100% foolproof. And I don't believe anyone on the Council -- not even Eb or the Merlin -- really understands what Rashid does as "Gatekeeper." It's a role that transcends the White Council, and is not subject to WC rules, or rulings. They cannot order the Gatekeeper to do anything (they can order Rashid, as WC wizard; but nothing in regards to his duties or identity as Gatekeeper).
Nothing is fool proof, and I agree that the Council have no idea the significance of either Rashid's job, or Harry's job for that matter, Rashid said as much in Cold Days. I wouldn't say the job as Gatekeeper transcends the Council, apparently if the general view is the one that Harry had the first time he saw the Gates that they cannot be real, they are supposed to be a metaphor. So I think rulings from Council can transcend, but rulings are rare. I also think if the Council was really interested in whether or not young Harry was infested they would have done a better job of checking him out. And since it is Rashid's main job or one of them to keep Outsiders out, I doubt he'd object to doing a scan himself, in fact I'd think he'd insist.
We are pretty sure that a "Black Council" cabal -- including Duchess Arianna & Raith Père -- had recruited Margaret LeFey to be the mother of a Starbabe that they would control. Instead, she broke free from Lord Raith ... and unexpectedly found true love, and bore a Starborn child with Malcolm Dresden!
Perhaps, but I am just as sure that the White Council wanted to breed a starborn of their own.. Margaret refused to be used by either side. At some point she changed her mind and had a star born child with Malcolm. What changed her mind? No doubt she had been to the Gates, she and Rashid were close friends, Mab and Lea may also have had a hand in it.
Here's a fun theory: Elaine was the WC's plan, and they "lost track" of her too (likely a Mab or Lea machination); then when she re-surfaced, she seemed to be a "failed attempt" (in that she carefully showed up during tests as not-quite-WC-caliber). It'd be a nice element of how Jim writes Elaine as Harry's "opposite number" in many regards.
I don't think the White Council even tested Elaine, after Harry killed Justin she fled to Summer where she stayed for a number of years and might very well have infested Aurora. After that she kept such a low profile that she attracted no more notice from the Council than the other low level talents making up the Paranet.
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... I don't think the White Council even tested Elaine, after Harry killed Justin she fled to Summer where she stayed for a number of years and might very well have infested Aurora. After that she kept such a low profile that she attracted no more notice from the Council than the other low level talents making up the Paranet.
They didn't test her in the DuMorne aftermath, no (when they collected Harry); they never connected her with DuMorne; she only appeared on-scene much later.
Warden Ramirez tested Elaine, out in LA. Harry called to "check up on her bona fides" & Carlos confirmed it.
She wasn't quite up to WC standards... but she was close, and recognizably well-trained in WC fundamentals.
He joked that if the Rampire War continued its horrible attrition, they might have to lower their standards a little bit -- just to keep WC numbers up -- and she'd be in.
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Just to nail down one small point. To a fairly high degree, we can be certain that no one else on the Council knows that the Gate Keeper has the means to detect Nemesis. From Cold Days:
Harry - "Steel," I said.
Rashid - "Pardon?" he asked.
Harry - "Your, uh, other eye. It was steel before."
Rashid - "I'm sure it looked like steel," he said. "The disguise is necessary when I'm not here."
Harry - "Your job is so secret, your false eye gets a disguise?" I asked. "Guess I see why you miss Council meetings."
When he is playing his role as a member of the Senior Council, the Gate Keeper does not share much information, unless he feels the need to do so.
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Just to nail down one small point. To a fairly high degree, we can be certain that no one else on the Council knows that the Gate Keeper has the means to detect Nemesis. From Cold Days:
Harry - "Steel," I said.
Rashid - "Pardon?" he asked.
Harry - "Your, uh, other eye. It was steel before."
Rashid - "I'm sure it looked like steel," he said. "The disguise is necessary when I'm not here."
Harry - "Your job is so secret, your false eye gets a disguise?" I asked. "Guess I see why you miss Council meetings."
When he is playing his role as a member of the Senior Council, the Gate Keeper does not share much information, unless he feels the need to do so.
Exactly, and the same goes for Harry.. Rashid also confirmed that. page 341 Cold Days
" I will do what I can. If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council, which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to--and that isn't much.
They didn't test her in the DuMorne aftermath, no (when they collected Harry); they never connected her with DuMorne; she only appeared on-scene much later.
Warden Ramirez tested Elaine, out in LA. Harry called to "check up on her bona fides" & Carlos confirmed it.
She wasn't quite up to WC standards... but she was close, and recognizably well-trained in WC fundamentals.
He joked that if the Rampire War continued its horrible attrition, they might have to lower their standards a little bit -- just to keep WC numbers up -- and she'd be in.
But she faked it so well, she fell off the radar.
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But she faked it so well, she fell off the radar.
I'm pretty sure she didn't.
They're just not doing anything active about her, pursuing her as a suspect, or issuing any warnings; she'll get no "official" attention/effort until they have some reason to take action.
The WC is the sort to keep meticulous records, and an "almost, but not quite" wizard is well worth noticing and remembering, but that "hands off... unless" policy has always been the WC/Warden MO... and beyond even that, their resources got severely depleted during the war with the Ramps, and that was only... what, 4-5 years before the PT/BG duology?
Also: Carlos is kind of a horndog, and I'm certain he recalls Elaine very well (as I recall, there were hints she flirted a bit to help distract him from noticing her abilities).
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I'm pretty sure she didn't.
They're just not doing anything active about her, pursuing her as a suspect, or issuing any warnings; she'll get no "official" attention/effort until they have some reason to take action.
The WC is the sort to keep meticulous records, and an "almost, but not quite" wizard is well worth noticing and remembering, but that "hands off... unless" policy has always been the WC/Warden MO... and beyond even that, their resources got severely depleted during the war with the Ramps, and that was only... what, 4-5 years before the PT/BG duology?
Also: Carlos is kind of a horndog, and I'm certain he recalls Elaine very well (as I recall, there were hints she flirted a bit to help distract him from noticing her abilities).
The problem with that theory is Mort has been able to keep off the radar as well. As Harry noted in Ghost Story he is way more talented than the Council gives him credit for, so he is left alone by them. If Elaine was successful in distracting Carlos from noticing her talents by flirting with him, he either isn't a very good Warden, or Elaine is very good at fooling him and from there the Council, thank you for making my point.
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The problem with that theory is Mort has been able to keep off the radar as well. As Harry noted in Ghost Story he is way more talented than the Council gives him credit for, so he is left alone by them ...
Mort was almost-washed-up, he had lost faith in himself, his values, his worth. His abilities had declined a lot; we don't know how good he actually was in the pre-Storm Front years, or how closely the WC was (or wasn't) monitoring him then. I don't think the WC has noticed yet that Mort has "bounced back" from the brink. And of course, because he's limited to ectomancy (rather than having a broader array of wizardly abilities) the WC is always going to consider him a "lesser" talent.
... If Elaine was successful in distracting Carlos from noticing her talents by flirting with him, he either isn't a very good Warden, or Elaine is very good at fooling him and from there the Council ...
Carlos is actually a pretty good warden, but he has some specific weaknesses in regards a "pretty face" (Harry's got some of his own (by design): Butcher's writing to the "Noir Detective" tropes, and the "femme fatale" is supposed to be a weakness for our protagonist).
Above and beyond that, though: Elaine has (by Harry's testimony) always been better than him at elements of style & grace, at subtler casting etc... and then she went to summerfae finishing-school where you just gotta know that "subtlety" & "deception" & "flirting" were some of the most-reinforced lessons!
Poor young Carlos... well, as the saying goes, "he never stood a chance."
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Mort was almost-washed-up, he had lost faith in himself, his values, his worth. His abilities had declined a lot; we don't know how good he actually was in the pre-Storm Front years, or how closely the WC was (or wasn't) monitoring him then. I don't think the WC has noticed yet that Mort has "bounced back" from the brink. And of course, because he's limited to ectomancy (rather than having a broader array of wizardly abilities) the WC is always going to consider him a "lesser" talent.
That's what Mort wanted the Council to believe if I remember correctly in Ghost Story, because Harry believed what you are saying also but found out it wasn't true. I am not saying you are wrong because it's been a while, I need to go back and read, but up to my earlobes at the moment and just don't have the time. However I seem to remember Harry being a bit shocked that Mort was as talented as he is.
Carlos is actually a pretty good warden, but he has some specific weaknesses in regards a "pretty face" (Harry's got some of his own (by design): Butcher's writing to the "Noir Detective" tropes, and the "femme fatale" is supposed to be a weakness for our protagonist).
Not saying that Carlos isn't a good Warden, but if he is that easily swayed, he isn't..
Above and beyond that, though: Elaine has (by Harry's testimony) always been better than him at elements of style & grace, at subtler casting etc... and then she went to summerfae finishing-school where you just gotta know that "subtlety" & "deception" & "flirting" were some of the most-reinforced lessons!
What has that got to do with it? Carlos maybe a decent Warden, but he shouldn't be commanding the North American Wardens if he is that easily snookered... Which actually fits with when he first meet him, he is barely out of his apprenticeship and he is made a commander? Harry as well for that matter.. Just speaks to how many Wardens died in the war against the Reds and the Council was appointing Wardens not really ready to fill the more responsible jobs.
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That's what Mort wanted the Council to believe if I remember correctly in Ghost Story, because Harry believed what you are saying also but found out it wasn't true...
Grave Peril Mort was the has-been.
By the time of Ghost Story, Mort had very-much turned his life (and his magic) around.
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Grave Peril Mort was the has-been.
By the time of Ghost Story, Mort had very-much turned his life (and his magic) around.
Or he was faking it during Grave Peril.
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Or he was faking it during Grave Peril.
Harry's a decently-keen observer.
I don't think Mort could have successfully pulled off a "my whole life is spiraling downward" fake (which is where he was, in GP).
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Harry's a decently-keen observer.
I don't think Mort could have successfully pulled off a "my whole life is spiraling downward" fake (which is where he was, in GP).
Harry had a lot on his plate at that time, a lot more inexperienced, and a bit more trusting in the Council's judgements. Also Mort didn't do anymore around Harry than what was expected of a low level wizard, so how would Harry know?
I took a minute and reread that part of Gave Peril. A couple of things stood out, one is Harry calls Mort a "con man." And yeah, Mort is doing that and claims to have lost his powers and Harry believes him.. Yet for a guy who has no "powers" Mort seems to know a heck of a lot about what is currently going on in the spirit world. Yeah, Mort is an excellent con man, so could he successfully pull an "I lost my powers," con on Harry? Absolutely. Harry also had a chance to engage Mort in a soul gaze, but avoided it. That isn't to say that by the time Ghost Story comes around he might be a little out of practice, but what Mort does do proves that he has always been a powerful wizard.. However what he likes to do and what the Council and the Laws of Magic allow is a very thin tightrope, and he has successfully walked it for years.
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Harry had a lot on his plate at that time ...
Harry always has "a lot more on his plate" during the case files; Jim has said they're generally "the worst day(s) of Harry's year."
But GP was only when we (the readers) first meet Morty -- Harry was going to see Mort because he already knew Mort; so Mort's "introductory scene" wasn't a "cold read" for Harry, but an update on what was already familiar.
... and a bit more trusting in the Council's judgements ...
Harry was still having as little to do with the WC as he possibly could; I don't think he had access to their "profiles of minor talents" reports (nor would he likely have paid much attention to them, given his experience of how the WC was treating/evaluating Harry himself).
It's pretty clear in GP that Harry's opinion of Mort is based upon Harry's own experiences & observations; but also upon Mort's prior achievements (he had written books on ghosts &c).
"Twenty years ago, you were a pretty damned good investigator...
And now what? ... How many times do you actually get to contact a spirit? One time in ten? One in twenty?...
You play on [peoples'] grief to take them for all you can... but you don't like what you're doing. If you did, your powers wouldn't have faded like they did."
-- Grave Peril, chapter 10 (though there's also a bit on Morty near the end of Ch.9)
Mort has been making a living running seances... but mostly faking it (classic pseudo-psychic con-artist stuff).
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... A couple of things stood out, one is Harry calls Mort a "con man." And yeah, Mort is doing that and claims to have lost his powers and Harry believes him.. Yet for a guy who has no "powers" ...
Not that he has no powers, but vastly-lessened powers.
The Morty of GP wouldn't have held against Corpsetaker for even a few minutes, let alone days.
... Yeah, Mort is an excellent con man, so could he successfully pull an "I lost my powers," con on Harry? Absolutely ...
Twenty years of faking a spiral of fading powers, though?
Why would he be doing that?
Early-series Mort was a coward (just like early Butters, FWIW). But they got better. Mortimer Lindquist also got his powers back; in large part by doing the right thing & redeeming his own self-image, but also flexing the "magical muscle" and giving it a workout.
... That isn't to say that by the time Ghost Story comes around he might be a little out of practice, but what Mort does do proves that he has always been a powerful wizard ...
On the contrary: by the time of Ghost Story, Mortimer Lindquist is working daily and deeply.
His home is a spiritual fortress.
He is back to being a powerful ectomancer.
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Not that he has no powers, but vastly-lessened powers.
The Morty of GP wouldn't have held against Corpsetaker for even a few minutes, let alone days.
I'm not so sure of that. We have no real proof either way. It's kind of like Mac, just a mild mannered bar tender, keeps out of most things, but look at him with the sight, and you will burn your eyes out.
Twenty years of faking a spiral of fading powers, though?
Why would he be doing that?
Because he wants to be left alone to do his own thing.
Early-series Mort was a coward (just like early Butters, FWIW). But they got better. Mortimer Lindquist also got his powers back; in large part by doing the right thing & redeeming his own self-image, but also flexing the "magical muscle" and giving it a workout.
But he couldn't have gotten them back unless they were always there in the first place.
On the contrary: by the time of Ghost Story, Mortimer Lindquist is working daily and deeply.
His home is a spiritual fortress.
He is back to being a powerful ectomancer.
But why?
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The WC is in my mind, most fans and in its own mind the elite of the elite. I tend to view them as the Justice league/ Avengers (comic versions) of the magical humans. Like both groups every hero can join but only the elite tend to get the invte.
Put another way.
Mort is powerful yes but only in his specific field. A wizard of the WC has to be an omniglot.Someone who is good at everything, and excellent at most things.
Though out the series Harry sees a supernatural being do something then claims that if he wanted he could learn the thing and propably replicate it. Mort on the other hand does not have that option. His stuck has an ectomancer an excellent one propably the best but an ectomancer non the less. Harry and any WC Wizard can learn the basics get good enough to do most of the stuff mort can do butnot as good as mort but good enough.
The WC is short sighted in not making use of specialists like mort and anna ( thenfire mancer in skingame b4 she was a warlock) as resourceful allies to help train them in the areas they need to get good at or to train, recruit and guard other magical humans.
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I'm not so sure of that. We have no real proof either way ...
We have no proof positive, no. But we have some indicators...
The fact that he chose to live an increasingly-impoverished life, moving from being a notable multi-book author, to running hokey seances as a con-man, with cheap plastic gargoyles in the yard is one such.
Lack of any Bob-testimony / Harrry-awareness is another: Harry sent Bob out "scouting for info" quite a few times, that we saw; I presume he did so off-screen, too. Bob would certainly have noticed -- sooner or later -- if Mort was operating (up through Grave Peril) a spiritual redoubt as formidable as the one in Ghost Story, and reported as much to Harry.
Harry himself has other investigative magical resources, as well; he won't just be looking with his eyeballs. The idea that an ectomancer the caliber of GS-Mort could have been operating under Harry's nose & in his back yard for years seems wholly unbelievable... Mort's a powerful ectomancer, but there are a great many magical disciplines where he's blind and ignorant... and Harry isn't. Hard for Mort to effectively block what he can't detect / doesn't understand!
But he couldn't have gotten them back unless they were always there in the first place.
But why?
Yes, he had some power; it faded, and was lessened... but never faded entirely out of his reach.
Note that Charity's power is gone gone, by way of neglect (intentional dis-use); it isn't coming back.
Why?
Why was Mort working so hard, being so effective?
I think it was because of Harry. Harry seems more-able than most to uplift those around him, redirect them in better ways. Mort seems to have benefited.
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We have no proof positive, no. But we have some indicators...
The fact that he chose to live an increasingly-impoverished life, moving from being a notable multi-book author, to running hokey seances as a con-man, with cheap plastic gargoyles in the yard is one such.
Lack of any Bob-testimony / Harrry-awareness is another: Harry sent Bob out "scouting for info" quite a few times, that we saw; I presume he did so off-screen, too. Bob would certainly have noticed -- sooner or later -- if Mort was operating (up through Grave Peril) a spiritual redoubt as formidable as the one in Ghost Story, and reported as much to Harry.
Harry himself has other investigative magical resources, as well; he won't just be looking with his eyeballs. The idea that an ectomancer the caliber of GS-Mort could have been operating under Harry's nose & in his back yard for years seems wholly unbelievable... Mort's a powerful ectomancer, but there are a great many magical disciplines where he's blind and ignorant... and Harry isn't. Hard for Mort to effectively block what he can't detect / doesn't understand!
Oh it is very believable, it's done everyday. Mort was regarded as a con man by Harry, and in Grave Peril Mort didn't do anything to change that opinion. At one point he even pointedly confirms it to Harry, paraphrasing, "you know I've lost my power, right?" Now that can be taken two ways, yes, Mort's lost his powers, or Mort is covering, as in telling Harry what he already believes and wants to hear.
Yes, he had some power; it faded, and was lessened... but never faded entirely out of his reach.
Note that Charity's power is gone gone, by way of neglect (intentional dis-use); it isn't coming back.
Apples to Oranges, Charity was never trained, Mort was.. I also think it remains to be seen whether or not Charity's power or talent is gone, gone.. I think it is gone because she wants it to be, because of what she almost became.
I think it was because of Harry. Harry seems more-able than most to uplift those around him, redirect them in better ways. Mort seems to have benefited.
Still to what purpose? As I said, in Grave Peril Mort just had too much information for someone who is out of the game.
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Oh it is very believable, it's done everyday. Mort was regarded as a con man by Harry, and in Grave Peril Mort didn't do anything to change that opinion. At one point he even pointedly confirms it to Harry, paraphrasing, "you know I've lost my power, right?" Now that can be taken two ways, yes, Mort's lost his powers, or Mort is covering, as in telling Harry what he already believes and wants to hear.
It sounds like you really want to believe Mort had his full powers all along...
But you're going to have to argue with Jim himself:
what Morty was doing with his talent was borderline slimy and he knew it. And he didn’t really believe in it, and as a result, his talent started failing him from time to time–which affected his confidence, which in turn made his talent even shakier, a vicious cycle. He was still trying–he had just gotten himself into a situation where he was sandbagging himself psychologically.
Now, we all know that Jim isn't above lying. But you'd honestly need a really strong argument as to why Jim was lying about this for me to give any serious credence.
... Apples to Oranges, Charity was never trained, Mort was.. I also think it remains to be seen whether or not Charity's power or talent is gone, gone.. I think it is gone because she wants it to be, because of what she almost became ...
No, Charity's coven (and the cultic leader there) did train her (at least somewhat; I think we can presume it wasn't nearly the caliber of training Harry can give (or any WC wizard open-minded enough to train a "lesser" talent); or even what the average Paranetter (as of PT/BG) can get). Charity wasn't so much untrained as (very) badly trained.
But yes, Charity's power is gone, gone; she hasn't passed it to any of her other children. Jim says:
Maybe her kids, if they wanted, could go out and work hard and stir up a latent talent. A watershed sort of life event might do something along those lines–shake them up enough to jump-start a dormant gift. But then, that’s most of humanity in the Dresden Files, really. Everyone has some kind of ability, if they just want to look hard enough to find it. That’s where the Alpha’s came from.
(bold italic emphasis added by me)
Or at least, it's profoundly weakened/lessened, like a muscle atrophied from extreme disuse; and then deeply buried, so that it's completely unavailable. It would take Charity a very long time, and lots of hard work, to get back any magic whatsoever. Quoting Jim, again:
Being a wizard is ... a complicated talent with /many/ different aspects, all of which have to work together to cause an effect–IE, a spell. If you neglect that group of talents over the course of years, regaining them and getting them all to work together again would be extremely difficult, if it was possible at all.
(all WoJ's quoted above come from https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/ )
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Now, we all know that Jim isn't above lying. But you'd honestly need a really strong argument as to why Jim was lying about this for me to give any serious credence.
Lying is a strong word isn't it? I never said Jim was lying, I only go by what I read or interpret what I am reading in the text. For me that makes reading the series much more interesting, because it is fiction it is open to many interpretations from the readers. Also again Jim's answer is just vague enough to allow for that, because who knows when he answered that question he may have been after one thing, but later on in the series he might change his mind, we've seen examples of that as well.
No, Charity's coven (and the cultic leader there) did train her (at least somewhat; I think we can presume it wasn't nearly the caliber of training Harry can give (or any WC wizard open-minded enough to train a "lesser" talent); or even what the average Paranetter (as of PT/BG) can get). Charity wasn't so much untrained as (very) badly trained.
Train somewhat? Badly trained? I'd like to repeat a statement my brother in law used to love to make, in other words, "Charity knew just enough to be stupid!" The same could go for Kim if you will remember?
But yes, Charity's power is gone, gone; she hasn't passed it to any of her other children. Jim says:
I think talent is genetic, she managed to pass it on to at least one of her children, didn't she?
Maybe her kids, if they wanted, could go out and work hard and stir up a latent talent. A watershed sort of life event might do something along those lines–shake them up enough to jump-start a dormant gift. But then, that’s most of humanity in the Dresden Files, really. Everyone has some kind of ability, if they just want to look hard enough to find it. That’s where the Alpha’s came from.
Um, I think you misread Jim there! Charity's kids couldn't stir up any talent, or at least not enough to make that much difference, if they didn't have the talent to begin with.
Being a wizard is ... a complicated talent with /many/ different aspects, all of which have to work together to cause an effect–IE, a spell. If you neglect that group of talents over the course of years, regaining them and getting them all to work together again would be extremely difficult, if it was possible at all.
Which kind of contradicts what he said about Mort doesn't it? Or maybe having it both ways to give himself as an author more flexibility, I understand that..
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Lying is a strong word isn't it? I never said Jim was lying ...
Not at all... not in this context.
Every story Jim tells is, at some level, a "lie" -- an un-truth, spoken/written in full knowledge that it isn't true.
I used to tell my kids, when they were little:
I try really, really hard never to lie to you. I don't always tell you every detail, and everybody makes errors and is mistaken about some stuff... but I don't lie to you.
Except once a year, at Christmas.
You're getting coal for Christmas.
Jim lies to us to entertain us. And sometimes -- iirc by his own admission -- he even lies outside of "canonical" stories, in the Q&A / AMA / etc that we collect as "WoJ"'s, when he seems it sufficiently-important to keep a plot-element back as a surprise and just saying "I won't tell you" is insufficient.
But back to the point at hand: Mort's power had indeed weakened, confirmed by Jim:
... his talent started failing him from time to time–which affected his confidence, which in turn made his talent even shakier, a vicious cycle ...
Or:
... what I read or interpret what I am reading in the text ... because it is fiction it is open to many interpretations from the readers ... who knows when he answered that question he may have been after one thing, but later on in the series he might change his mind, we've seen examples of that as well ...
Because Jim engages with us outside the context of his art, we have more opportunity to query -- even have dialogue with -- the artist & his intent. We're always free, of course, to take the work entirely on the basis of its own merits & our own responses, and disregard the artist themselves!
Personally, I prefer to consult the WoJ's to further my understanding.
But, of course, you're right -- Jim changes his mind. And the series is just as subject to "early episode weirdness" as any other. And sometimes (albeit rarely) Jim even lies directly.
Even so, I like to have the WoJ's, and I read them when I find new ones!
... Train somewhat? Badly trained? I'd like to repeat a statement my brother in law used to love to make, in other words, "Charity knew just enough to be stupid!" The same could go for Kim if you will remember?
You had alleged Charity was "untrained," I just thought it an important distinction that -- however piss-poor he was -- there was a magic-trainer in Charity's life. An abusive one, without much native power; but she wasn't entirely untrained.
... I think talent is genetic, she managed to pass it on to at least one of her children, didn't she? ...
The WC calls it "Salic Law" -- mothers with magical gifts tend to have children with magical gifts; apparenty it's not a male-line (Y-chromosome?) thing, however.
But sometimes power "comes from nowhere," no known talent from ancestry; and sometimes the most promising of parentage produces no more than a squib. Margaret LaFey was the daughter of a mundane mother. I think "recessive" genes and "masking" genes are part of the issue; but there's more...
Jim has made it clear that magical talent is (at least in part) a matter of epigenetics:
https://harvardcenter.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/EpigeneticsInfographic_FINAL.jpg (https://harvardcenter.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/EpigeneticsInfographic_FINAL.jpg).
Molly is talented because Charity's potential got expressed; and that happened specifically because Charity had relatively-recently been a practitioner herself (and (maybe) because she'd been exposed to other magic (her coven/cult, the dragon Siriothrax)). The rest of the Carpenter kids did not have their potential expressed... specifically because Charity had been working so diligently to suppress her magic and had no other magic influencing her.
(this kind of environmental exposure causing different "expressions" of similar/identical genetics is what the study of epigenetics is all about)
As adults, Molly has full power, while her younger sibs would need something extraordinary to even get minor abilities; their potential is akin to most mortals'.
... Charity's kids couldn't stir up any talent, or at least not enough to make that much difference, if they didn't have the talent to begin with...
Jim explicitly says the other kids aren't very different from most humans in the Dresdenverse:
... that’s most of humanity in the Dresden Files, really. Everyone has some kind of ability, if they just want to look hard enough to find it ...
... Which kind of contradicts what he said about Mort doesn't it? Or maybe having it both ways to give himself as an author more flexibility, I understand that.
Charity's situation and Mort's are entirely different.
Mort never abandoned his powers; he just lost faith in himself, and they weakened... but never faded away to zero. When Mort started believing in himself and his powers again, he was able to rebuild them.
Charity actively abandoned her powers; she chose to let them atrophy, and fade... and now they have actively faded beyond her reach (as witness her later children being born without magic talent).
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Charity actively abandoned her powers; she chose to let them atrophy, and fade... and now they have actively faded beyond her reach (as witness her later children being born without magic talent).
That doesn't mean that the genes no longer exist in Charity's body to pass on to her children or that they don't have recessive genes for magical talent in their bodies that will show up in later generations.
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I noticed in White Knight is that Harry uses Elaine's True Name to make contact with her when she's under attack from the Skavis.
Harry makes a ritual conduit by conjuring up an old Sight memory of her, but it's 16ish years out of date. So he fills out his construct of her by trying to understand the pain she's gone through since they knew each other, and filling out/updating his mental image based on that.
Half of her life had gone by since she had given him that True Name, which supposedly stop working after your personality changes enough. And somehow it still worked. In retrospect, I find that kind of odd. It's a ~16 year old Name, founded on the solidity of the identity of an about-to-have-a-formative-trauma teenager. I can think of three explanations.
The first, least likely possibility to my mind is that Harry really did just figure out the last 16 years of her life well enough to update her Name with on-the-fly guesswork. What must have been near a decade of existing with the Fae somehow didn't come with it's own unique trials and scars that he couldn't personally imagine to insert into her Name. Even if Summer's got a better reputation, they're still Fae. It doesn't scan to me.
The second, what seems to be more likely outcome is that Elaine simply hasn't changed that much over the intervening time. Perhaps she hasn't changed at all, and any difficulty Harry had with the spell was because of his adjustments, not in spite of them. I don't know what Nemfection does to mortals, but dragging our ability to change to a halt seems perverse enough to qualify. Stasis would have also been very appealing to a recently freed thrall who would likely slip into madness over the coming weeks as her mind tore itself apart.
(Also, possible Kumori connection? Bringing change to a halt is the essence of how she saves that guy with necromancy.)
She would have then fled to the Summer Court, to have her "mind healed" by Aurora. If Aurora had such an ability, it seems to me like the White Council would have bargained handsomely to have that on retainer for themselves, if absolutely no one else. But even after Peabody screws up everyone's head, they have to rely on their own fumbling inexperience to fix things, instead of trying to even get lessons from a more powerful mind healer. Like the new Summer Lady who happens to be a huge fan of one of their wardens.
More likely, it seems to me that the Senior Counsel is aware that the Summer Lady has no such abilities. Probably after asking her directly and paying for that specific information in vain hopes of tackling this exact problem.
Currently the only people who have all of the information about how bad Elaine's mental whammy was, and the finer details of how much damage a mental whammy like that does, are Harry and Elaine. And Harry is Harry.
The third possibility is what Harry uses to shock her fully alert in White Night. He calls her Name once and her first name a few times and gets a response, but she's still drowning under the psychic assault. What fully snaps her out of it is when he gives his own name as part of a command.
Elaine Lilian Mallory! I called, and in my head, my voice rumbled like thunder. I am Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, and I bid thee hear me! Hear my voice, Elaine!
It's very reminiscent of how he compelled HWWB in Cold Days, but the way it's written is ambiguous. It could be that throwing his will behind Elaine's full name is waking her up, or it could be that throwing his will beyond his own is doing the job.
Or it could be some combination of the above. Elaine's stasis allowing her Name to land, forming a conduit for Harry's Name to compel Nemesis to act.
Perhaps even, by sheer stumbling idiot fluke, screwing up one of Nemesis' plans by forcefully compelling it to blast it's own agent into the parking lot. That would be very Harry.
It's all circumstantial and speculation, but the lady is shady.
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It's very reminiscent of how he compelled HWWB in Cold Days, but the way it's written is ambiguous. It could be that throwing his will behind Elaine's full name is waking her up, or it could be that throwing his will beyond his own is doing the job.
Yes, or he is relying on the love they once had for one another when they were children, soul gazed, knew and used each other's full name. It could also be because as a star born he has such power over Outsiders and Nemesis, thus he was able to over come any power they had over Elaine at the time and wake her up. This is before Lash clued him in about some of his power, so I'd say he was relying on the love they once had for one another to get through.
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That doesn't mean that the genes no longer exist in Charity's body to pass on to her children or that they don't have recessive genes for magical talent in their bodies that will show up in later generations.
Yes, Charity still possesses those genes; if the X-chromosome "salic Law" theory is correct, she may well have passed them to any (or all) of her kids; who (potentially) will pass them to theirs.
Epigenetics is more than a matter of "dominant/recessive" though: Jim has been clear that Molly has a talent because of Charity being magically-active so recently; and the other Carpenter kids have no talent because Charity had been non-magical for so long.
What Charity was doing (or not-doing) was what activated (or didn't activate) the magical talent in their genes.
For future generations, it will come down -- in large part -- to a question of how much magic the mothers are exposed to... though some postpartum (and even adult) experiences can maybe shake-loose some powers (as happened for the Alphas). I suspect there are a few other issues in play, that Jim hasn't yet revealed.
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Epigenetics is more than a matter of "dominant/recessive" though: Jim has been clear that Molly has a talent because of Charity being magically-active so recently; and the other Carpenter kids have no talent because Charity had been non-magical for so long.
I don't think it works that way..
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... Epigenetics is more than a matter of "dominant/recessive" though: Jim has been clear that Molly has a talent because of Charity being magically-active so recently; and the other Carpenter kids have no talent because Charity had been non-magical for so long.
I don't think it works that way..
That's how Jim says it works:
Well, like many things in life, it just isn't as simple as positive/negative, either/or. Genetics /are/ a factor. However, they are not the /only/ factor. I think I've said that at least a couple of times before this, but I'm happy to reiterate. :)
Look, even the simplest genetic traits are way less simple than you get in basic biology classes when they're operating in the real world. Sure, you can inherit the gene for tallness, which is dominant, but if your mom is horribly sick, or starves during the pregnancy, it's going to impact your birth and development. So is your health, environment, diet, behavior, the behavior of those around you, etc, as you grow...
magical potential and heredity operates along those same lines. Charity was, essentially, stacking up environmental factors against her unborn children developing their genetic propensity for magic into a real, tangible gift to the point where the chances of them actually doing it were negligible. If Charity had been possessed of a monster gift, of if she'd been constantly around and involved in magic during the course of the pregnancy, it would have been more difficult for her to reduce it to practically zero like that. But instead, she was making a deliberate and willful choice to deny her children's potential a chance to find a chance to take root and bloom.
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,5860.msg157767.html#msg157767 (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,5860.msg157767.html#msg157767)
... what's critical to this particular equation is the fact that Charity was consciously and deliberately neglecting her talent--which hadn't been all THAT hot to begin with. She went through the time she got engaged to Michael, all the way through Molly's term, all the intervening time, etc, before she got to Daniel. It had been more than two, maybe three years since she'd done anything with her magic by the time Daniel was conceived.
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,631.msg16946.html#msg16946 (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,631.msg16946.html#msg16946)
You are, of course, free to take your entire opinion from the stories, and ignore WoJ's.
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You are, of course, free to take your entire opinion from the stories, and ignore WoJ's.
Which I prefer to do, because it ruins the story for me, and I think limits the author from the freedom of changing his or her mind if the story takes a turn as they often do in a series. J.K. Rowling mentioned in an interview that in many ways she was too wedded to her outline over the course of the series. I used to belong to a Harry Potter site and people were constantly saying, " well, J.K. Rowling said this or that so it was the only option for the story.." Oh I don't mind asking questions, I used ask all kinds of questions of a favorite author of mine and good friend.. But that was after she had finished the story..
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... and I think limits the author from the freedom of changing his or her mind if the story takes a turn as they often do in a series ...
Jim's still free to change his mind; either admitting as much or just saying, "what did you expect? of course not everything I said was true!!!"
Notably, though:
- Butters, at his introduction, was only ever meant to be a bit-character, comic relief, coward, etc. Jim originally had no vision of him as an alt-Batman, a Holy Knight, or getting into a menage a trois with Were-Hotness.
- Going into Changes, Jim hadn't yet decided whether he was going to write the "Harry's Power-Up" scene as the WK (that he eventually did choose) or the Dark hallow, or Lasciel's Coin. Jim said he could see how each might work, and how Harry might justify them.
- When questioned about some details -- particularly about older books -- Jim has said, "you know, I'm not sure, because with many of these I've written 9-10 versions of a scene, and I don't always remember for sure which one is the final published version."
So Jim is absolutely making (at least some of) this stuff up as he goes along!
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Butters, at his introduction, was only ever meant to be a bit-character, comic relief, coward, etc. Jim originally had no vision of him as an alt-Batman, a Holy Knight, or getting into a menage a trois with Were-Hotness.
Which is why I prefer not to listen so much to WOJs. Butters is an excellent example of what the author may have envisioned for a character in his or her head that didn't present that way on the page. As a reader, not having any knowledge of a WOJ saying that about Butters as a character, I formed my own opinion of him from what was written on the page and to me Butters never came off as either a coward or comic relief. I know Jim did try, when we first meet Butters, he loves the polka, has this crazy homemade instrument that he is taking to a polka convention. Thomas tries very hard to convince Harry, thus us that Butters was a coward and a fool. However in spite of Jim's efforts, while Butters came off as maybe a bit weird and eccentric, at the same time Butters came off as open minded, very intelligent, and willing to step up no matter how frightened he was. Those qualities for me made Butters a favorite character from the get go. I am grateful that Jim also realized quickly about the character and went the direction he went with Butters.
The truth is, I think in the first paragraph when we first meet Butters, we find out that he had suffered a demotion and was forced to spend time in a mental hospital because he would neither lie about or take back his medical findings about a body he felt wasn't quite human. This is a man of great courage and conviction, no way after that could Butters be made into a comic or cowardly character.
Now it is interesting after the fact to learn what Butters was supposed to be long after the book was written.
Jim's still free to change his mind; either admitting as much or just saying, "what did you expect? of course not everything I said was true!!!"
Which tells me that most WOJs, unless he is answering a question that has been resolved back when, should be taken with a large grain of salt!