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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on September 04, 2024, 10:12:48 PM
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OK, so there's this old WoJ:
Q: Who was the Warden of Demonreach before Harry?
A: I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before that was Kemmler....
So:
Now = Harry
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler.
But now we have this (from the recent Dragoncon):
Wardens of Demonreach?
Merlin, two since then, one of whom the WC doesn’t know about.
(Presumably not including Harry)
and (different transcriber, same Q&A session):
apart from Harry and OG Merlin, do we know any other Wardens?
There's been relatively few over the time since Merlin - only been 2 others and 1 the white council doesn't even know about...
It looks to me like either:
(a) those two answers are incompatible (the old WoJ vs. the new one from Dragoncon); Jim has retconned something
(b) there was a huge gap between Kemmler & Merlin (the OG, not the title)
Like this:
Now = Harry
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler
<huge gap>
Harry - 4 = Merlin (the OG, Arthur guy)
Or, possibly, either Kemmler is much older than we thought, or Merlin lasted until much until more recently than we realized (or some of each).
We already know that deep-Nevernever can add centuries of mortal-world time (apparent "lifespan"); and maybe the Wardenship (see how I didn't use the "M" word, there? I know some dislike the way the idea has spread) can add lifespan, too.
But even so look particularly at this bit:
only been 2 others and 1 the white council doesn't even know about
That is only 3 people maximum (maybe only 2, one of whom the WC doesn't know about). Leaving off our bookends (Harry & Merlin) those 3 are just these ones:
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler
... Dafuq?
That's the entire list of Wardens who aren't Harry or Merlin??!?
One way or another, it looks like there's some discrepancies to be accounted for... or fannish thinking to be adjusted.
Or else Jim has changed his mind (or misunderstood timeframes and answered a different question than we think, or somesuch).
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Unless Rashiid has taken the role multiple times, I can't see how there were this few.
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Here is a thought, maybe a little out there, but we know Merlin built the place. We know it is complex and if I remember correctly extends into more than one dimension and time. So it isn't that Merlin lived extraordinarily long, but was able to be Warden in more than one dimension and time.
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Might be Jim just forgot he had said that he had to think about it when he was asked on the dresden files podcast so maybe he just had to narrow down what he wanted.
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Here is a thought, maybe a little out there, but we know Merlin built the place. We know it is complex and if I remember correctly extends into more than one dimension and time. So it isn't that Merlin lived extraordinarily long, but was able to be Warden in more than one dimension and time.
Merlin time-hopping is a possibility.
I wouldn't put anything past that dude, really.
And we already know that Rashid is several centuries older than typical wizard lifespan, presumably courtesy of deep-Nevernever time-dilation effects (which, really, is a pathway open to other wizards / other Wardens).
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Merlin time-hopping is a possibility.
I wouldn't put anything past that dude, really.
And we already know that Rashid is several centuries older than typical wizard lifespan, presumably courtesy of deep-Nevernever time-dilation effects (which, really, is a pathway open to other wizards / other Wardens).
Rashid makes sense as well, I got the impression from Turn Coat that he was very up on the ins and outs of the island and what it meant to be a Warden of the prison. More so, I would say than Eb was.
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I could be wrong, but didn't Rashid, or someone, say that he'd never been the Warden? That Alfred might be holding a grudge against him, but not as a former Warden.
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I could be wrong, but didn't Rashid, or someone, say that he'd never been the Warden? That Alfred might be holding a grudge against him, but not as a former Warden.
Who knows? One of those unanswered questions, if asked, would get an evil sing song out of Jim, "I ain't a going to tell you..." I don't remember anything about Rashid having been or never having been a Warden on Demonreach in the books. I am not up enough on WOJs to know if Jim ever said it or not. I'm just saying it is plausible that Rashid could have been at one time..
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I could be wrong, but didn't Rashid, or someone, say that he'd never been the Warden? That Alfred might be holding a grudge against him, but not as a former Warden.
I don't recall Rashid ever speaking to the issue having been (or not been) the Warden.
Hypothetically, I could see Demonreach having a "grudge" from Rashid having prioritized Gatekeeper-duties over Warden-duties. Again, I don't recall any canon text or WoJ speaking to this at all.
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I don't recall Rashid ever speaking to the issue having been (or not been) the Warden.
Hypothetically, I could see Demonreach having a "grudge" from Rashid having prioritized Gatekeeper-duties over Warden-duties. Again, I don't recall any canon text or WoJ speaking to this at all.
Me neither... :-\
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OK, so there's this old WoJ:So:
Now = Harry
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler.
But now we have this (from the recent Dragoncon):
It looks to me like either:
(a) those two answers are incompatible (the old WoJ vs. the new one from Dragoncon); Jim has retconned something
(b) there was a huge gap between Kemmler & Merlin (the OG, not the title)
Like this:
Now = Harry
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler
<huge gap>
Harry - 4 = Merlin (the OG, Arthur guy)
Or, possibly, either Kemmler is much older than we thought, or Merlin lasted until much until more recently than we realized (or some of each).
We already know that deep-Nevernever can add centuries of mortal-world time (apparent "lifespan"); and maybe the Wardenship (see how I didn't use the "M" word, there? I know some dislike the way the idea has spread) can add lifespan, too.
But even so look particularly at this bit:That is only 3 people maximum (maybe only 2, one of whom the WC doesn't know about). Leaving off our bookends (Harry & Merlin) those 3 are just these ones:
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler
... Dafuq?
That's the entire list of Wardens who aren't Harry or Merlin??!?
One way or another, it looks like there's some discrepancies to be accounted for... or fannish thinking to be adjusted.
Or else Jim has changed his mind (or misunderstood timeframes and answered a different question than we think, or somesuch).
A retcon is certainly possible. I'm pretty sure JB has retconned some other stuff that I've often commented on.
Another issue, though, is that he was being asked verbally. To my mind, a Word of Jim in the form of a forum posting, or other directly-written statement, carries more weight than a verbal question and answer, because there are so many ways a question can be misunderstood, or Jim could overlook something and only remember it an hour later when it's too late, or so on. When you write something, you're usually more focused.
That said...if there has been a Warden the Council doesn't know about, Kemmler would look like a reasonable one. I would think having Kemmler as Warden would freak the Senior Council completely out if they knew about it.
OTOH...if they do know Kemmler was once the Warden...that would add quite a bit of explanatory power to their current panic about Harry. It would be one more huge parallel, one more suggestion to his enemies that Harry is walking down the same road Kemmler once walked.
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OTOH...if they do know Kemmler was once the Warden...that would add quite a bit of explanatory power to their current panic about Harry. It would be one more huge parallel, one more suggestion to his enemies that Harry is walking down the same road Kemmler once walked.
My question would be more along the line of, if Kemmler was Warden, why didn't he remain Warden? Can one just quit being Warden? Why did he quit? Was he fired? Why was he fired? If he was fired, who did the firing? Can Alfred decide one day that Kemmler had to go? For what reason? And if it was for reasons along the lines of why the White Council went after Kemmler, why didn't Alfred just slap him in a cell? Or can Alfred do that to the Warden of the island on his own?
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if there has been a Warden the Council doesn't know about, Kemmler would look like a reasonable one. I would think having Kemmler as Warden would freak the Senior Council completely out if they knew about it ...
No, they knew that Kemmler was the Warden. Jim has been very clear that a big part of their anti-Kemmler campaign was keeping Kemmler away from the island.
When Harry became Warden, the discussion on the Council was more along the lines of "dafukkk??!? Did he just... stupid his way into that? It looks a lot more like a dumb move than an Evil Genius(tm) move." If a more-experienced wizard, who knew more about what was what, became Warden, that'd be different. Apparently if anyone on the Senior Council were to do it, would largely convince the others that they had found their Villain-in-Chief. But for Harry, it just looks to them like a stupid blunder.
... if Kemmler was Warden, why didn't he remain Warden? ...
He caught a severe case of being dead.
If Kemmler had been able to get back to the island, the odds are that not even the White Council would have been able to take him.
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He caught a severe case of being dead.
Do we know for sure that Kemmler was Warden when he died? Aside from necromancy was he all that bad as to warrant death without a trial? Did he do his job on the island? Would Alfred let a warlock/criminal be Warden? Did Kemmler use the leyline for his own ends? Would Alfred allow him to do that? If he was so bad, why didn't he let some of the prisoners loose to aid him? I'm sorry but something seems a bit off here, the pieces do not fit nicely in the puzzle.
Tinfoil hat time, maybe Rashid was the only wizard with enough juice to get Kemmler off the island so he could be taken. This is why Rashid limps and why the island/Alfred has a grudge against him? Because it was Rashid that deprived the island/Alfred of it's caretaker/Warden, Kemmler?
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Do we know for sure that Kemmler was Warden when he died? ...
We do not know for sure, but smart money says yes: WoJ is that one huge component of the WC's anti-Kemmler campaign was to keep him the &$@% away from the island; which sounds an awful lot like he was the Warden, and would get Wardenpower as soon as he got back there.
... Aside from necromancy was he all that bad as to warrant death without a trial? ...
I expect there was a trial; likely in absentia, but a trial. No reason not to go through the formalities, eh? And also a huge debate, because a finding against Kemmler would amount to placing the WC into a state of war.
But... "aside from necromancy" ??!?
Seriously?
Remember that it's one of just 7 death-penalty crimes the WC has.
And Kemmler wasn't just "a" necromancer -- he was the premier necromancer of the modern age, maybe even of all time; someone with the skills and powers to impress even Mab (who generally seems to regard most modern wizards (even heavyweights like McCoy & Langtry) with no more than mild interest).
And it's not like he merely animated the dead, then used them for as maids & butlers (or something equally innocuous but anime-esque amusing) -- he used them brutally to advance his personal power, an Evil Wizard in the grand traditions of Evil.
But fine. "Aside from necromancy" you say?
How about being the guy who spent over a century engineering WW1 (which arguably was in turn directly causative of WW2)? That's about 80M dead, right there. War crimes, genocide, crimes against humanity, you name it...
Even if you judge WW2 as not directly Kemmler's fault... WW2 is when he re-surfaced and "... animated mass graves and rampaged through Eastern Europe." (n.b. "rampage" is distinctly not the maids-and-butlers use of undead).
... Did he do his job on the island? Would Alfred let a warlock/criminal be Warden? Did Kemmler use the leyline for his own ends? Would Alfred allow him to do that? If he was so bad, why didn't he let some of the prisoners loose to aid him? I'm sorry but something seems a bit off here, the pieces do not fit nicely in the puzzle ...
The Warden is supposed to use the leylines; the Warden is supposed to use all the tools at his disposal, and those are some very potent tools!
But Alfred doesn't give a f-ck about "warlock" or not, "criminal" or not... all Alfred cares about is whether the Warden is doing the job -- imprisoning the really big, really bad BigBad's, and keeping them confined. By those standards, I expect Kemmler did an excellent job: he'd hardly want any of those BigBads running around, messing up his own plans!
We know (or strongly suspect) that the Warden can semi-release imprisoned entities, "furlough" them but keep them leashed to the island and forced to return to their confinement when the Warden says so, but (during their furlough) able to act in the world to some degree. It's apparently one of the last-ditch powers a Warden can wield, and I expect we'll see it in the BAT (likely sooner, with one or more of the lesser prisoners such as a naagloshi). So long as he put them back after, I presume Alfred was perfectly OK with any such actions Kemmler might have taken; again, it's a feature of the Warden role, not a "bug."
[side tangent, a nasty thought: can the Warden fully-release a prisoner? Not just a furlough, but a full-on "your time is done, the Well has no further claim upon you" ??!? AFAIK we have never seen any indication of such a thing; and if the Warden indeed cannot do so, then Thomas is going to be stuck with Harry as his Warden-boss even after release... likely re-pissing-off Lara, and introducing major Thomas/Harry tensions (not to mention whatever tensions will exist from the fallout of what happens with Justine/Nemesis vs Harry) ]
... Tinfoil hat time, maybe Rashid was the only wizard with enough juice to get Kemmler off the island so he could be taken. This is why Rashid limps and why the island/Alfred has a grudge against him? Because it was Rashid that deprived the island/Alfred of it's caretaker/Warden, Kemmler?
That's an interesting theory. Very interesting! I don't think it's correct, but I do like it & AFAIK there is very little to go upon... perfect WAG material!
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Again, my question, how did such a despicable character become Warden? Sounds like he should have been one of the inmates.
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... Again, my question, how did such a despicable character become Warden? Sounds like he should have been one of the inmates.
Kemmler was a mortal wizard, strong-enough & skilled-enough to pass the warden-tests. That qualifies him. Demonreach is largely amoral -- "despicable" is irrelevant.
If Kemmler had Darkhallow'ed, then Demonreach likely would have seen the issue rather differently...
;)
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Kemmler was a mortal wizard, strong-enough & skilled-enough to pass the warden-tests. That qualifies him. Demonreach is largely amoral -- "despicable" is irrelevant.
If Kemmler had Darkhallow'ed, then Demonreach likely would have seen the issue rather differently...
;)
Still doesn't follow, Kemmler as Warden still would have had control of the inmates. Another thing that doesn't fully compute, the island's defenses.. The ones that one the Warden has control of, they weren't in place when Harry took over as Warden. Alfred was barely holding on and that's why he was so happy to have a caretaker again.. Those Warden controlled defenses remain in control even when Harry isn't on the island.. Are they automatically dropped if Harry died leaving the island vulnerable once more?
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Still doesn't follow, Kemmler as Warden still would have had control of the inmates ...
That's our understanding, yes.
I confess: I don't have track of the WoJ (or canonical cite) which says this.
But AFAIK the inmates are still subject to (as yet unknown) specific rules of Demonreach. It's in BG, I think, where Harry discovered that Alfred does stuff outside of the Warden's orders/control/perception; I expect that brief reveal will prove important later!
... Another thing that doesn't fully compute, the island's defenses.. The ones that one the Warden has control of, they weren't in place when Harry took over as Warden. Alfred was barely holding on and that's why he was so happy to have a caretaker again.. Those Warden controlled defenses remain in control even when Harry isn't on the island.. Are they automatically dropped if Harry died leaving the island vulnerable once more?
I don't think the island drops all those defenses instantly, no: remember, Mab acted as if Harry's order to Demonreach (to imprison her if she killed him) was a "credible threat."
I suspect it'll be one or more funky bits of pseudo-mystical handwavium -- "a year and a day" or somesuch -- that is the duration for "final orders" of Wardens who die.
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But AFAIK the inmates are still subject to (as yet unknown) specific rules of Demonreach. It's in BG, I think, where Harry discovered that Alfred does stuff outside of the Warden's orders/control/perception; I expect that brief reveal will prove important later!
I believe we do, if I remember correctly Harry was told, and I can't remember who told him at the end of Battle Ground that he could order the Titian he just jailed to do his bidding. So if that is true for Harry, it would have been true for Kemmler as well. And given Kemmler's record, and yeah I believe he was a bad guy, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't have taken advantage and used one of these monsters. Unless he did try, and Alfred threw him off of the island and revoked his Warden status. Like I said, to my feeble brain anyway, something doesn't add up for Kemmler to have been Warden when he was killed.. Or that he had ever been Warden at all.
I don't think the island drops all those defenses instantly, no: remember, Mab acted as if Harry's order to Demonreach (to imprison her if she killed him) was a "credible threat."
Yes, it was a credible threat because Harry was Warden as of Turn Coat, he just didn't know it. He may not have had all the poop on the defenses, but by the beginning of Cold Days, when he and Bob went to the island and Alfred explained about the prison etc, Harry understood he was Warden and that Alfred would obey his order to throw Mab in the slammer.
Mab also understood, and most likely understood since the end of Changes when she took Harry near death body to the island. It was also mentioned at the end of Ghost Story when he woke up in Mab's arms that he was Alfred's caretaker.. I am sure Mab understood that being the island's caretaker and Warder were the same thing.
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... something doesn't add up for Kemmler to have been Warden when he was killed.. Or that he had ever been Warden at all ...
And yet, WoJ is very clear and specific: Kemmler was indeed Demonreach's Warden (though we don't know for how long).
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And yet, WoJ is very clear and specific: Kemmler was indeed Demonreach's Warden (though we don't know for how long).
That's the thing isn't it? Here is a tin hat theory; Maybe Kemmler was for a time, but he was corrupted by the inmates and corrupted and tempted by the power of the leyline and used it before he was ready to handle it. Remember the warning about the use of the leyline before he was ready that Rashid gave to Harry? Though Rashid wasn't specific about what would happen if he used it prematurely, except they weren't good. So if Kemmler used the leyline underestimating his own power, and not perhaps being a star born, the results were such that Alfred threw him off the island and he was no longer Warden. However Kemmler still retained lingering strength from it to draw upon to do his necromancy and pursue his other evil pursuits.
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... it was a credible threat because Harry was Warden as of Turn Coat, he just didn't know it ...
Harry threatened Mab with prison at the end of Cold Days, I think -- well after TC -- so Harry was very-much aware of the Warden role; but that isn't the point here.
The point is a very-short logic chain:
1/ Harry issued a command to Alfred to be carried out in the event of Harry's death.
2/ If Warden-specific stuff expires when the Warden expires, Mab wouldn't have seen the threat as credible; but she did.
3/ Therefore, at least some of Demonreach's Warden-stuff survives the death of the Warden.
Presumably, it eventually expires (if everything could be on-tap all the time, I presume it would be, and the Island's defenses wouldn't have been so lax at the time Harry became Warden); hence my speculation above, regarding "year and a day" or the like.
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1/ Harry issued a command to Alfred to be carried out in the event of Harry's death.
Maybe a technicality here, but still important, when the order was given, Harry was a very alive Warden. So the order was, if Harry is killed by Mab, immediately put her in the slammer.. The order given by a very alive Warden, so I'd say it was still good, given what the order was.
2/ If Warden-specific stuff expires when the Warden expires, Mab wouldn't have seen the threat as credible; but she did.
I think it goes to wording, Harry issued the order and Alfred began to move or indicate that he was ready to move if Mab made any move against Harry. Beyond that order, everything relating to Warden orders might expire, but not in this case, because Harry was very much alive when Alfred began to act, and Mab knew it.
3/ Therefore, at least some of Demonreach's Warden-stuff survives the death of the Warden.
Not really proof because Harry was very much alive when Alfred began to act. I imagine if Mab tried anything the effect would have been pretty instant and she would have been in the slammer before Harry hit the ground.
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Maybe a technicality here, but still important, when the order was given, Harry was a very alive Warden. So the order was, if Harry is killed by Mab, immediately put her in the slammer.. The order given by a very alive Warden, so I'd say it was still good, given what the order was...
Why wouldn't the Warden just give the order to keep the island at elevated defenses "until ordered otherwise" ... Then the island is defended even if the Warden dies, because the order was given by a "very-alive Warden."
We know the defenses were down when Harry took up the job... the question is, how long before a Warden-ordered elevated state of "Defcon" (or other orders) just "wear off" to normal low-grade steady-state, after the Warden dies?
Instantly? Likely not, if we're to judge by Mab's reaction.
A few moments? Possible, but Demonreach-powers bring a lot of psychic "inertia" to just evaporate so swiftly.
Next Sunrise? We now a sunrise -- and successive sunrises -- can wear-away magic & wards &c. But the defenses of the island have seen a LOT of sunrises... I don't think they're susceptible.
All this is supposition, though. AFAIK nobody has ever pinned Jim down on any of this.
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Why wouldn't the Warden just give the order to keep the island at elevated defenses "until ordered otherwise" ... Then the island is defended even if the Warden dies, because the order was given by a "very-alive Warden."
Apparently that didn't happen, yes, some defenses continued even without a Warden, but the island was vulnerable. Because many of the island's defenses that only a Warden could control were down. What underscores that, is at the beginning of Skin Game one of the things Harry said he had been doing that past year was learning what those defenses were and restoring them.
Instantly? Likely not, if we're to judge by Mab's reaction.
Yes likely, page502 Cold Days, Mab had just taken the gun back from Harry and was pointing it at him, bolding mine;
"I," Mab said coolly, "I am not yourservant, Dresden. "You are mine."
"Demonreach," I said. "If our guest pulls that trigger, take her below and keep her there."
The guardian spirit's vast shadow fell over us even though there was nothing actually casting it, and Mab's eyes widened.
Wide eyes mean one of two things or both, 1] surprise, 2] fear.. In other words it was an "oh sh#t!" moment for Mab. Mab knows what the island could do and knew in that instant that Harry had the power and wasn't afraid to order Alfred into action, she also knew she was doomed if she made any move against Harry.. So...
Harry goes on to warn Mab to be gentle with Molly or she will answer to him. Mab backs off and says her usual about how pleased she was to finally have a strong knight. But make no mistake, Alfred was in motion to carry out Harry's orders if Mab had pulled the trigger, and he would have put her in the slammer.. When Alfred did it, most likely Harry would already have been dead.
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... Yes likely, page502 Cold Days, Mab had just taken the gun back from Harry and was pointing it at him ...
If Warden-orders end instantly with the death of the Warden, then Mab was utterly safe: Harry's order to Demonreach would end when Mab spattered his brains out. Death is instantaneous, no last lingering words, no Death-Curse, and (if Warden-orders insta-expire) no more threat from Alfred.
And yet Mab acted as if the threat was real.
I conclude that -- most likely -- a Warden's orders do NOT expire instantly when the Warden expires.
I presume that they do expire -- eventually -- because the island was at "Defcon Zero" when Harry became Warden. Even "Defcon Zero" is dangerous when it's Demonreach, of course! But Harry needed to learn the defenses, and raise them up.
I presume that, when Harry dies, the island's elevated defenses will fade away... but I'm unclear how quickly that would happen.
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When Harry became Warden, the discussion on the Council was more along the lines of "dafukkk??!? Did he just... stupid his way into that? It looks a lot more like a dumb move than an Evil Genius(tm) move." If a more-experienced wizard, who knew more about what was what, became Warden, that'd be different. Apparently if anyone on the Senior Council were to do it, would largely convince the others that they had found their Villain-in-Chief. But for Harry, it just looks to them like a stupid blunder.
Is this a Word of Jim? If so, could you direct me to it?
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I presume that, when Harry dies, the island's elevated defenses will fade away... but I'm unclear how quickly that would happen.
Or more likely without a human Warden guiding them they become ineffective. Like driving a car and the steering goes out, the car may continue to go but without effective steering it's out of control. I think Alfred had fall back defenses that it can put into place, the sense of fear and paranoia that ran off the people that tried to settle on it is an example. However as we saw in Cold Days the island was vulnerable to determined attackers. Harry had been named Warden by that point but he hadn't learned all he needed to know at that point for the island to be fully defended.
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When Harry became Warden, the discussion on the Council was more along the lines of "dafukkk??!? Did he just... stupid his way into that? It looks a lot more like a dumb move than an Evil Genius(tm) move." If a more-experienced wizard, who knew more about what was what, became Warden, that'd be different. Apparently if anyone on the Senior Council were to do it, would largely convince the others that they had found their Villain-in-Chief. But for Harry, it just looks to them like a stupid blunder.
Harry did blunder his way into it.. However it is stupid on the part of the Senior Council to think that to be Warden of the island would be Villain in Chief.. The post has dangers because it carries with it great power as well as responsibility, both can corrupt the person holding it, but that doesn't make them a villain, and to let the post remain vacant for all those years seems rather stupid.
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Is this a Word of Jim? If so, could you direct me to it?
It is, I'm virtually certain (I have read the section repeatedly).
But now I cannot find it. :o :-[
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It is, I'm virtually certain (I have read the section repeatedly).
But now I cannot find it. :o :-[
:o
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Harry did blunder his way into it.. However it is stupid on the part of the Senior Council to think that to be Warden of the island would be Villain in Chief.. The post has dangers because it carries with it great power as well as responsibility, both can corrupt the person holding it, but that doesn't make them a villain, and to let the post remain vacant for all those years seems rather stupid.
Think about this defense in international geopolitics: Nations of the world trust me l, im only making these nuclear weapons for self defense. Trust me. Even friendly Nations think u are full of shit.
I think becoming the Warden is like this. Even your friends will be looking at you sideways. After all that's too much power in one hand. Even if you trust the guy. On a side note one of my theories is that talking to the inmates is dangerous and can corrupt you. So maybe a previous Warden ( Kemmler) was corrupted bh the place and everyone is now scared of risking another kemmler. After all if one guy can be corrupted why not the next
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I don't there is a WOJ about the island corrupting its Warden. I think what applies here is the warning Rashid gave Harry in TurnCoat. That also is the basis of the Council thinking Harry blundered his way into becoming Warden.
APG
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I don't there is a WOJ about the island corrupting its Warden. I think what applies here is the warning Rashid gave Harry in TurnCoat. That also is the basis of the Council thinking Harry blundered his way into becoming Warden.
APG
Blundering into it doesn't make one automatically bad at whatever the job is, or a bad person. I do agree talking to the inmates is dangerous, also the temptation of trying to harness the power in that apparently very powerful ley line. However in the light of all of that, why didn't the Senior Council make sure there was a Warden in charge of the place they could trust? After all they have a designated assassin don't they? Someone authorized to use black magic for cripe sake! :o
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Blundering into it doesn't make one automatically bad at whatever the job is, or a bad person ...
No; I think "blundering into it" is prima facie evidence of being underqualified. In the normal course of things, they'd be right: Harry's like a plumber who has wandered into being the only engineer at a nuclear power plant.
... However in the light of all of that, why didn't the Senior Council make sure there was a Warden in charge of the place they could trust? ...
I suspect it's because -- from the WC's perspective -- it's too horrible & dangerous a job to force someone to take. But I'm not sure.
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Blundering into it doesn't make one automatically bad at whatever the job is, or a bad person. I do agree talking to the inmates is dangerous, also the temptation of trying to harness the power in that apparently very powerful ley line. However in the light of all of that, why didn't the Senior Council make sure there was a Warden in charge of the place they could trust? After all they have a designated assassin don't they? Someone authorized to use black magic for cripe sake! :o
I've always thought it strange that they don't have someone as the "sitting" Warden who was the Warden but knew never to go to the island but could sit on the Title. What if the fear is less about corruption and more about ability? We know the Warden can lock anyone or anything up and that the Warden can let it out with specific orders/under his control. Maybe the Senior Council (and other parties) are afraid of someone taking the Wardenship then putting their cronies in a cell and releasing them as his puppets.
Take the Senior Council, they know the island is a threat and so has Eb take up as Warden. Ten years later The Merlin tries to kill Harry, Eb to protect Harry puts The Merlin in prison, then releases him with the order to not kill Harry. The Merlin becomes the puppet of Eb, so Eb basically controls the council. I wonder if this is the true fear of the SC that someone could infect their minds and control them. We saw how much Peabody could get done with his ink and I'd assume Deamonreach is more powerful than ink.
Obviously, the big issue with this is the geographical location of the island which is why I have speculated before there must be a way to expand the range or something to be able to cast a wider net. But there is no evidence I am aware of supporting this potential.
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No; I think "blundering into it" is prima facie evidence of being underqualified. In the normal course of things, they'd be right: Harry's like a plumber who has wandered into being the only engineer at a nuclear power plant.
Actually it isn't evidence all that Harry was under qualified, all it says is that he didn't know the consequences of full ramifications of his act. He didn't know at the time that the prison existed, or that his act would immediately draft him as Warden . That's the blundering part, however the very fact that Harry was able to pull it off says he has the skills and talent to do the job.. The question becomes and was both brought up by Eb and Rashid, does he have the judgement to handle the job? So far he has shown for the most part that he has. It isn't at all like the person who comes and fixing your plumbing suddenly running a nuclear power plant knowing nothing about nuclear energy.
I suspect it's because -- from the WC's perspective -- it's too horrible & dangerous a job to force someone to take. But I'm not sure.
So it's better to leave no one in charge?
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I completely understand why they might want no one in charge. With no one in charge, the island can't defend itself as well because there's no wizard directing or improving its defense but no one can easily release the prisoners either. Harry could release them all if he wanted to. I think that the island is just as safe overall because Harry makes it harder to break prisoners out using an army but easier to break them out using subterfuge, blackmail, or similar. Everyone knows that Harry would commit genocide to save his kid so they could reasonably guess that he'd release a prisoner to save her too. If the Formor really want Ethniu back, they have to know that kidnapping Maggie and demanding Harry to release might actually work.
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I completely understand why they might want no one in charge. With no one in charge, the island can't defend itself as well because there's no wizard directing or improving its defense but no one can easily release the prisoners either. Harry could release them all if he wanted to. I think that the island is just as safe overall because Harry makes it harder to break prisoners out using an army but easier to break them out using subterfuge, blackmail, or similar. Everyone knows that Harry would commit genocide to save his kid so they could reasonably guess that he'd release a prisoner to save her too. If the Formor really want Ethniu back, they have to know that kidnapping Maggie and demanding Harry to release might actually work.
I don't know if it is that simple.. Actually when Harry did in the Red Court it wasn't just to save his daughter, it was to save himself and his grandfather as well. What he did was merely reversing the spell that the Red King wanted to use to destroy him and his grandfather by killing little Maggie.. What the Red King hadn't counted on was Harry figuring it out and that Maggie's mother Susan would be willing to sacrifice herself as she was becoming the youngest of the Red Court vamps to save her daughter.
In chapter 39 of Turn Coat, Rashid has closely questioned Harry about what he knows about the island. Why it is there, it's purpose, etc., it becomes very clear that Harry is totally ignorant of any of that. All Harry knows is it's affect on people/beings and thinks it is a way to level the playing field for someone who he thinks is innocent, that is Morgan. Rashid also explains that the island is the source of the powerful leyline. However though he says it is a useful question, Rashid doesn't answer that question. We don't know if he knows or not.
On page 299, Harry reveals to Rashid that he has made it his sanctum. Rashid asks him how? He further tells Harry that he doesn't know what he has done, and that he will pay a price for what he has done.
Then he gives Harry some advice; bolding mine
"First," he said, "do not tap into the power of this place's well. You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."
The important bit here I think are the last words in the sentence, "without being altered by it." Which implies to me that others have tried and were altered,or corrupted by it, which could very well have happened to Kemmler, he tried, wasn't ready, and was corrupted and altered by it.
Then on 379 in his journal Eb writes that it is quite clear that Harry had no clue what the real purpose of the island is. Then more interestingly;
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a higher power of some sort, attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it.
This to me suggests that Eb does think that the island needs a Warden, that up until that time the Council has pulled back from appointing one either out of ignorance, or fear.. Fear perhaps that by appointing another Warden, they would be creating another Kemmler.
He goes on to say what Rashid said that he didn't think warning Harry about the dangers of the island would do any good. Eb says that Rashid is a good judge of people, but that he isn't sure he is right. Is Eb saying that Rashid is saying Harry can handle the job? Or is Eb afraid that Harry cannot? Eb says he trusts Harry's judgement, goes on to say that he is one of three or four wizards who could handle that mantle.. But then he goes on to doubt himself, saying he trusts Harry's judgement, but then he also trusted Maggie. Not so sure about him really trusting his daughter though, I don't think he did,
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Actually it isn't evidence all that Harry was under qualified ... however the very fact that Harry was able to pull it off says he has the skills and talent to do the job ...
It's really quite necessary to ask, from whose point of view?
Demonreach has its own standards. Obviously, Harry fulfilled them.
I might speculate: others know there's an Apocalypse coming, so it seems likely Demonreach knows, too. Did the entity accept Harry's effort at a lower bar, because it was so critical to get even a mediocre Warden over none at all? I'll assert it's a reasonable question, to which we have no answer (and very little evidence).
And, of course, the White Council has its standards. Demonreach (and its Warden) are no part of the White Council; Warden of the Well isn't a Senior Council title, nor yet an unofficial role within the WC (the way "the Blackstaff" is an unofficial role). The Council isn't even always aware of the Warden. And yet, they have Opinions!
From the WC perspective, then, Harry's the plumber in the nuke-plant. Not everyone shares that opinion... Ebenezer thought it was a good idea; Rashid is... mmm... cautiously optimistic? Others find it an act of hopeless incompetence: becoming Warden unwittingly, what more proof of incompetence do you need? And a few, I suspect, still harbor a suspicion that they are seeing Warlock Dresden(tm) making (yet another) power-play.
... So it's better to leave no one in charge?
I think, from the WC perspective, this is the case.
Because a Warden can release the entities in the island, and there are a lot of horrible (and horrifically powerful) entities down there, gathered over the course of millenia. I think a bad-guy Warden is just about the worst scenario they can envision, far worse than none at all.
I think they see the Warden's job as being bad enough that nobody "should" want it; that the only reason anybody would want it, is to do Evil Villain Shenanigans.
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It's really quite necessary to ask, from whose point of view?
From the island's point of view. Harry had no clue what he was auditioning to become Warden of the island. For starters I doubt that many wizards step on the island ready to perform the ritual that Harry did to make it his sanctum. Fewer still I imagine pass the test, we've seen what Alfred is capable of, from it's point of view, Harry passed the test. If Harry had failed I doubt he would have ever left the island, alive or dead.
Demonreach has its own standards. Obviously, Harry fulfilled them.
I might speculate: others know there's an Apocalypse coming, so it seems likely Demonreach knows, too. Did the entity accept Harry's effort at a lower bar, because it was so critical to get even a mediocre Warden over none at all? I'll assert it's a reasonable question, to which we have no answer (and very little evidence).
I seriously doubt that, remember Harry also included a drop of soulfire in the mix, no other wizard that we know of so far can do that. Eb and Rashid both confirmed that Harry was up to the task, Eb said that there were only three or four other wizards that he felt could pull it off. However I will concede that this is only the first part of the test. Now Harry has to realize he isn't ready to draw power from the well yet, that is the final and most important test, will he be able to resist the temptation? Harry did manage to imprison a Titian didn't he, also in the process resisted a psychic assault from her as well. So no, I don't think the island lowered it's standards for the sake of...
And, of course, the White Council has its standards. Demonreach (and its Warden) are no part of the White Council; Warden of the Well isn't a Senior Council title, nor yet an unofficial role within the WC (the way "the Blackstaff" is an unofficial role). The Council isn't even always aware of the Warden. And yet, they have Opinions!
True, the title of Warden of Demonreach is a mantle not unlike the Winter Knight's mantle. Oh I believe that Blackstaff is an official title, just not one spoken aloud. I also believe that the Senior Council is very aware of the Warden of the island, that's why the Merlin wanted Harry put under surveillance as soon as he heard about it. It is indeed a dangerous mantle, and if I am right about Kemmler and how he was corrupted, understandable.
From the WC perspective, then, Harry's the plumber in the nuke-plant. Not everyone shares that opinion... Ebenezer thought it was a good idea; Rashid is... mmm... cautiously optimistic? Others find it an act of hopeless incompetence: becoming Warden unwittingly, what more proof of incompetence do you need? And a few, I suspect, still harbor a suspicion that they are seeing Warlock Dresden(tm) making (yet another) power-play.
Your analogy is totally wrong, and if that is the perspective of the White Council it is totally wrong. A plumber can enter a nuke plant, but he cannot run it, or know where to begin to run it.. Harry has proven that he can manage the island, upgrade the defenses and imprison monsters, he is no plumber running a nuke-plant.
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From the island's point of view ...
But the conversation on this point, broadly, was about the White Council's POV: it's they who have the "Harry blundered into it" perspective.
I don't think Demonreach is capable of judging candidates' "preparation," only their success (or failure), because it's so limited/unaware away from the island.
I think it's reasonable to discuss either/both perspectives; but I think which should be clear when doing so.
... Harry also included a drop of soulfire in the mix, no other wizard that we know of so far can do that ...
True.
But we know (per WoJ) that all the Senior Council (and comparable-level senior wizards) have multiple secrets and hidden powers / hole-cards they can call upon in extremis. I think it's reasonable to suspect that Harry's not the only wizard with soulfire...
We've no proof there is any other(s), but we've also no proof there isn't/aren't.
... Eb said that there were only three or four other wizards that he felt could pull it off ...
Which is the passage you meant?
If it's the "Eb's Journal" scene, that seemed to me more about Eb having faith in Harry's morals & ethics, not the technical prowess & raw power to "pull if off."
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But the conversation on this point, broadly, was about the White Council's POV: it's they who have the "Harry blundered into it" perspective.
Perhaps, however if they felt that way, at that point they could have done something about it, but they didn't. Remember Harry had been wounded, nearly bled out and in the infirmary after Morgan's trial. Perfect time to actually do something, they did nothing. No one even questioned him about it, none of them, save the warnings from Rashid about using the Ley line at the beginning, said a word about it to Harry. You could say Ed did, but that was indirect, via his journal that just happened to be open accidentally on purpose for Harry to see.. Yet no one said a word about what in the hell being Warden of the island meant or why it was a mantle. At that point the only warden job Harry knew about was for the White Council. So how do you explain that?
I don't think Demonreach is capable of judging candidates' "preparation," only their success (or failure), because it's so limited/unaware away from the island.
It's about talent, that can't be prepped for, Harry apparently had the talent. Talent gets you the job, the rest is on the job training... Without the talent, no amount of training is going to make up the difference. We don't know if a prospective Warden can fail and be kicked off the island. You can train Simone Biles to be the best gymnast in the world because she was blessed with amazing talent, where as I can blunder into a gymnastic class and be lucky to get through it without breaking my neck no matter how hard I trained... As the coach said in "Chariots of Fire," "you can't put in, what God has left out.." It's also true in training search and rescue dogs, many dogs are candidates and are trained from the time they are puppies, but many nice puppies are also washed out of programs because they simply weren't born with that combo of drive, intelligence, and bravery.
I think it's reasonable to discuss either/both perspectives; but I think which should be clear when doing so.
I don't think you were clear when you asked the question, you simply asked the question.
True.
But we know (per WoJ) that all the Senior Council (and comparable-level senior wizards) have multiple secrets and hidden powers / hole-cards they can call upon in extremis. I think it's reasonable to suspect that Harry's not the only wizard with soulfire...
I don't think it is reasonable to believe that nor is there evidence for it. Actually the evidence is to the contrary, I doubt that archangels hand out the gift to just anybody. We know Harry was gifted with it because he threw off the influence of a Shadow of one of the Fallen, a very rare accomplishment. From the reaction of his foes who are able to recognize it when Harry has used it. They were surprised that he had been given it, why? Because it isn't something commonly gifted.. Think about it, it is an angelic power, not even the likes of Michael, Shiro, Sanya or other Holy Knights were gifted with it.. Odin is mentioned to have it, but he is considered a god, and he isn't a White Council Wizard.
Which is the passage you meant?
If it's the "Eb's Journal" scene, that seemed to me more about Eb having faith in Harry's morals & ethics, not the technical prowess & raw power to "pull if off."
The page in Turn Coat is sighted, 379, check it out yourself, not hard to figure out given my context.. Yes, it is about Eb having faith in Harry's morals and ethics, however all of that is moot in terms of doing the job if Harry didn't have the talent or the skills to do the job.. Simply put, he never would have gotten his foot in the door to begin with, without the talent.. So very clearly Eb was talking about the combo of ethics and talent, the mantle of Warden of the island must have that combo or it will be disaster.
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Blundering into it doesn't make one automatically bad at whatever the job is, or a bad person. I do agree talking to the inmates is dangerous, also the temptation of trying to harness the power in that apparently very powerful ley line. However in the light of all of that, why didn't the Senior Council make sure there was a Warden in charge of the place they could trust? After all they have a designated assassin don't they? Someone authorized to use black magic for cripe sake! :o
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We don't really know, but we can speculate.
For one thing, the position of THE Warden is fraught. I suspect that it's kind of like appointing a new Blackstaff, only worse. The Senior Council would want to pick someone with serious chops, it's not the sort of job you'd want to give to a newbie (like Harry!). Also, you'd want someone stable, and trustworthy, and at the same time maybe not one of the oldest, most powerful Wizards either. You'd want to know that you could take him out if you need to.
And presumably whoever the SC picks has to be acceptable to Alfred, too.
So it's going to be a tricky pick. They'd probably prefer to leave the job empty rather than risk appointing someone they didn't trust...and we should remember that Wizards live for centuries and the SC are usually among the oldest of them. The Council, as an organization, is almost 2000 years old in its current form, and older yet in previous incarnations. They take the long view.
To us, the job of THE Warden (or the Blackstaff, or any position except maybe the Gatekeeper) being unfilled for 25 or 75 years might seem like a long time. But to the Senior Council it might seem like a modest interim while they pick a new Warden suitable for the job.
Probably most of the time, they'd be right. It's just that right now the world is entering one of the Wizard crises that come along every now and then.
If the island was Wardenless from 1961 to 2009 (assuming that was when Harry took over), that's a gap of less than half a century. The Council might very well have been in the process of vetting possible replacements. If Kemmler was the last one, that would make them doubly cautious about picking the right Wizard for the job, I'd tend to think.
Ebenezar's writings suggest that he thinks Harry might have been a good choice if he was older and more experienced, but he's not sure. He saw how Margaret started out promising and went off the rails, and there's a lot of his mother in Harry.
Langtry, OTOH, would probably have been passionately opposed to the idea of Harry as THE Warden. "One Kemmler is enough."
A lot of the stuff the White Council, and esp. the Senior Council, does makes sense if you remember the time perspectives they operate under.
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Harry did blunder his way into it.. However it is stupid on the part of the Senior Council to think that to be Warden of the island would be Villain in Chief.. The post has dangers because it carries with it great power as well as responsibility, both can corrupt the person holding it, but that doesn't make them a villain, and to let the post remain vacant for all those years seems rather stupid.
I don't think the Council believes that THE Warden is automatically a villain-in-chief. I think they consider the position horrifically dangerous and easy to misuse, and they know that would-be villains will be attracted to that kind of power. If the Senior Council has the brains of your average gopher, then with their lifespans and experiences they will know that power draws corrupt people, and that power, any power, also has a tendency to corrupt. They'll have seen it. They would know it isn't inevitable, but they would know it's always a risk.
Demonreach one of the most dangerous sources of Power in the game. It's a kind of power that is readily abused, easy to misuse, and THE Warden is right next to some serious mega-evil beings, some of whom I'm sure can be very clever and persuasive and highly intelligent. Remember, that prison keeps skinwalkers in minimum security. They're too minor to rate anything heavier. Think about what they implies about the ones in supermax or isolation tank.
Yeah, I can easily understand the Senior Council's fears and caution.
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Something else occurs to me: if I was on the SC, when picking a new Warden of Demonreach, I think, everything else being equal, I'd want a middle-aged Wizard. Someone old enough to have learned a few things and shown stability and trustworthiness and so on, but at the same time, someone young enough that he can serve for a long time. Someone young enough, too, that if he does go off the rails, he's relatively manageable to deal with.
If you can find a good candidate, you'd probably want to keep him in place for a while. Making an SC member, or someone that age and power level, might well mean that he can only serve for a century or less, and if go south he would also be a handful to take out.
(Langtry was able to hold off an entire army with one ward, by himself. Ebenezar can shake continents with quakes and eruptions. Rashid is Rashid. Klaus once stopped an entire German military force with a toy duck, IIRC. Imagine that kind of power combined with THE Wardenship and it went sour.)
From that POV, Harry would seem way way too young (and he is!), but a fellow SC member would look too old and powerful.
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Langtry, OTOH, would probably have been passionately opposed to the idea of Harry as THE Warden. "One Kemmler is enough."
And you will remember according to Eb's journal, Langtry wanted to put Harry under surveillance upon hearing what he did, but that seems pretty mild. Eb's opinion of that was Langtry "was a damn fool." I repeat, at that point Harry had no clue as to what he had gotten himself into, he didn't do the sanctum thing to become Warden of the island, and may not have done it if he knew the consequences, all he wanted was a better chance to protect Morgan so he could get a fair trial. Yet no one save a vague warning from Rashid and another indirect vague warning from Eb said anything to him or explained anything to him... Don't you think that strange? Or once again the Senior Council decides that something could be very dangerous, i.e. another Kemmler, but then ignores the problem totally in hopes it will go away? When perhaps an ounce of prevention is called for? Or is it a wait and see what happens? In other words, the damn foolish surveillance idea of Langtry, because if it does go south, that horse has already left the barn, while the Senior Council just watched it happen.
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The real issue is the lack of surveillance at any time before or after Harry became the Warden. If you're going to suspect whoever takes control of the island, maybe you should be watching so you know if someone's making an attempt and who they might be. Also, why would you promote someone to the job of Warden of North America if you don't trust him? I mean there's only three Senior Council members living there out of seven total.
The Denarians set up shop there, kidnapping two signatories of the Accords. The White Council may not care about Marcone, but they really should care about the Archive. But we have no indication that the WC even knew what happened until Harry reported it.
The WC didn't know that Harry had taken the island in TC. The only reason they came there was because Harry set up a meeting there. Rashiid, Eb and Listens all learn that Harry has become the new Warden but aside from Rashiid's minimal warnings, no one offers any advice of any kind.
For CD, the new Warden and Winter Knight has been assassinated after the destruction of the Red Court, but the WC can't spare one wizard to check on the island occasionally. The magical tension in the area was building for months. Maybe there might have been some help on-hand to stop the breakout that would have resulted in kicking off the Apocalypse.
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The real issue is the lack of surveillance at any time before or after Harry became the Warden. If you're going to suspect whoever takes control of the island, maybe you should be watching so you know if someone's making an attempt and who they might be. Also, why would you promote someone to the job of Warden of North America if you don't trust him? I mean there's only three Senior Council members living there out of seven total.
What was weird about that is not only was Harry the equivalent of a rookie cop at the time, he had just gotten drafted into the Warden Corps. It hadn't been all that long since he was living under the Doom.
Exactly, I agree, though the island had some defenses, it was still vulnerable and you'd think you'd want to know who'd try to bond with it and why.
(Langtry was able to hold off an entire army with one ward, by himself. Ebenezar can shake continents with quakes and eruptions. Rashid is Rashid. Klaus once stopped an entire German military force with a toy duck, IIRC. Imagine that kind of power combined with THE Wardenship and it went sour.)
Very true, that's where the integrity thing becomes important. Being Warden of the island would be an even greater danger than even if the Blackstaff suddenly lost it and went rogue.
For CD, the new Warden and Winter Knight has been assassinated after the destruction of the Red Court, but the WC can't spare one wizard to check on the island occasionally. The magical tension in the area was building for months. Maybe there might have been some help on-hand to stop the breakout that would have resulted in kicking off the Apocalypse.
I think that any one of the Wardens could have had a watch on the comings and goings on the island.. Then when needed the big guns could have been called in. I guess they thought the island could keep it's secrets, after all the Denarians camped out there and held the Archive hostage and didn't seem to know it's secret or never attempted to breech it.
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The Denarians definitely know the secret of the island. But I don't think they can use it themselves because "No Denarians" would be on Alfred's checklist of those qualified for being Warden. Plus, Nic thinks his plan will save the world, I'd doubt that would include many of the inmates as most of them don't seem to be the follower type.
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The Denarians definitely know the secret of the island. But I don't think they can use it themselves because "No Denarians" would be on Alfred's checklist of those qualified for being Warden. Plus, Nic thinks his plan will save the world, I'd doubt that would include many of the inmates as most of them don't seem to be the follower type.
I still wonder though, because you'd think the Denarians would make use of some of the inmates if they could break them out.
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I still wonder though, because you'd think the Denarians would make use of some of the inmates if they could break them out.
The Denarians don't have a viable path to controlling the Warden, so their only option is to break them all out. I don't think that would jibe with their plans.
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On that same note, could the coins be imprisoned on the island? (You may've already discussed--I've been in and out of discussions lately)
Thanks--B
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On that same note, could the coins be imprisoned on the island? (You may've already discussed--I've been in and out of discussions lately)
Thanks--B
In Skin Game Lasciel told Harry that the coins weren't meant to be "locked up" very long. I forget her exact language. It was something about how corruption can't be kept hidden. I suspect the same applies to Demonreach as the Church keeping the coins in hiding.
Also, it is possible that whatever rules Demonreach operates under might make it impossible for the island to hold the coins. Maybe it could hold Nicodemus or another denarian but the coin might not be able to enter the vault with the coin holder. I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if this or some other mechanism prevents the island from imprisoning the coins.
The real issue is the lack of surveillance at any time before or after Harry became the Warden. If you're going to suspect whoever takes control of the island, maybe you should be watching so you know if someone's making an attempt and who they might be.
I think there are a couple of problems with this idea. First, the island doesn't like visitors and there isn't a practical way to keep an eye on the island other than being there.
I suspect the most important problem is, the White Council doesn't choose who becomes the island's Warden. I'm pretty sure it's Alfred choice. According to Harry, performing a Sanctum invocation is dangerous, so it isn't something most wizards ever do. So the Council would be hard pressed to find volunteers to attempt to do what Harry did.
On a different topic, we don't know much, or anything really, about Kemmler's personal history. Sure, he was super evil and crazy, but was he always that way? Was there a time when Kemmler was in good standing with the White Council, like Justine DuMorne was once a Warden of the Council? It's possible that Kemmler became the madman we know about after he was the Warden or while he was the Warden of Demonreach. Having extended conversations with some of things locked up under the island might have done that or contributed to Kemmler going down the dark path.
I wonder if Harry will ever ask Alfred about past Wardens; so we can learn more, or if this is backstory information that won't have much relevance to the story going forward. My guess is Kemmler's story; at least, is important, that it contains clues or information that Harry will eventually need to know. The stories and fates of the other wardens might also become important to Harry. We will just have to wait to see if I'm right.
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I think there are a couple of problems with this idea. First, the island doesn't like visitors and there isn't a practical way to keep an eye on the island other than being there.
I suspect the most important problem is, the White Council doesn't choose who becomes the island's Warden. I'm pretty sure it's Alfred choice. According to Harry, performing a Sanctum invocation is dangerous, so it isn't something most wizards ever do. So the Council would be hard pressed to find volunteers to attempt to do what Harry did.
I agree with this, I think any full wizard may have the knowledge and talent to perform the ritual of a Sanctum, but few are accepted by Alfred. If a wizard isn't accepted, at best he or she is thrown off the island, or worse, simply killed. I think the critical moment was when Alfred and Harry did the stare down after the summons, then Harry's extraordinary will kicked in, as Harry has said. paraphrasing, "it punched, and I punched back and now we are friends." Apparently in that moment Harry demonstrated to Alfred's satisfaction that he was strong enough to handle the job. Though at the time Harry had no idea it was a job interview.
On a different topic, we don't know much, or anything really, about Kemmler's personal history. Sure, he was super evil and crazy, but was he always that way? Was there a time when Kemmler was in good standing with the White Council, like Justine DuMorne was once a Warden of the Council? It's possible that Kemmler became the madman we know about after he was the Warden or while he was the Warden of Demonreach. Having extended conversations with some of things locked up under the island might have done that or contributed to Kemmler going down the dark path.
All of this is theory of course since we don't know any details save there is a WOJ that Kemmler was once a Warden of the island. My own theory is that Kemmler wasn't always evil, however after becoming Warden he didn't heed warnings about drawing power from the Ley line of the island, thus was corrupted by it and became evil. Remember what Rashid said about the Ley line, it's source was the island. Did he mean the monsters that it has imprisoned? If so, Rashid said it would be years before Harry was either experienced or old enough to draw upon it's power,without being altered by it.. This is another possible hint of what took place with Kemmler. Rashid didn't elaborate except to hint that the outcome wouldn't be good, and that Harry was years away from even attempting such a thing. In other words Harry isn't ready to use the power of the Ley line now, but Rashid didn't rule out Harry using it in the future, perhaps in the BAT? This most likely the set up for the last book in the BAT, why Harry was selected as Warden, so eventually in the final battle he will use it. That's why the island was brought into the series in the first place.
I wonder if Harry will ever ask Alfred about past Wardens; so we can learn more, or if this is backstory information that won't have much relevance to the story going forward. My guess is Kemmler's story; at least, is important, that it contains clues or information that Harry will eventually need to know. The stories and fates of the other wardens might also become important to Harry. We will just have to wait to see if I'm right.
He may have asked during that year he spent on the island. I wonder though if Alfred is capable of communicating something like that?
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All of this is theory of course since we don't know any details save there is a WOJ that Kemmler was once a Warden of the island. My own theory is that Kemmler wasn't always evil, however after becoming Warden he didn't heed warnings about drawing power from the Ley line of the island, thus was corrupted by it and became evil. Remember what Rashid said about the Ley line, it's source was the island. Did he mean the monsters that it has imprisoned? If so, Rashid said it would be years before Harry was either experienced or old enough to draw upon it's power,without being altered by it.. This is another possible hint of what took place with Kemmler. Rashid didn't elaborate except to hint that the outcome wouldn't be good, and that Harry was years away from even attempting such a thing. In other words Harry isn't ready to use the power of the Ley line now, but Rashid didn't rule out Harry using it in the future, perhaps in the BAT? This most likely the set up for the last book in the BAT, why Harry was selected as Warden, so eventually in the final battle he will use it. That's why the island was brought into the series in the first place.
He may have asked during that year he spent on the island. I wonder though if Alfred is capable of communicating something like that?
Not a bad idea. I like it.
I think Alfred could communicate about past wardens in broad strokes. He might mention the warden who tapped into the island's Ley line. Real basic information.
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I think Alfred could communicate about past wardens in broad strokes. He might mention the warden who tapped into the island's Ley line. Real basic information.
Very basic I would say, I don't get the feeling that Alfred understands humans or their motivations very well. In other words while he might be able to say that Kemmler tapped into the Ley line and maybe that it corrupted him, but I doubt that he could get across something that was probably more complicated than just Kemmler tapped the Ley line and became corrupted. Had Kemmler been warned like Harry was not to touch it and did it anyway? Why? Did he do it for just power? Or did it have something to do with him later becoming an necromancer? Did he lose someone he wanted to bring back? These are all important questions and I just don't think answering them are in Alfred's wheel house. It's job is to jail and to keep jailed monsters and evil doers.. Notice however it doesn't do that on it's own, it takes a human Warden to make that judgement.. Though there may have been non-human Wardens in the past, but we have no information on that.
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In Skin Game Lasciel told Harry that the coins weren't meant to be "locked up" very long. I forget her exact language. It was something about how corruption can't be kept hidden. I suspect the same applies to Demonreach as the Church keeping the coins in hiding.
Also, it is possible that whatever rules Demonreach operates under might make it impossible for the island to hold the coins. Maybe it could hold Nicodemus or another denarian but the coin might not be able to enter the vault with the coin holder. I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if this or some other mechanism prevents the island from imprisoning the coins.
We've never seen Alfred act on its own volition to imprison someone. At the times when the Denarians were on the island, there was no Warden to give the order to imprison them. Almost all the creatures and beings in that prison are there because someone (i.e. the White Council I'm pretty sure) put them there.
Could the prison hold a Denarian? I imagine so. Could it hold a Coin? I'm not so sure. If nothing else, there would be the risk of infernal intervention.
I think there are a couple of problems with this idea. First, the island doesn't like visitors and there isn't a practical way to keep an eye on the island other than being there.
I have to agree with Mira on this. Maybe Alfred doesn't like visitors on the island or maybe not, we just don't know. Apparently someone was able to operate a cannery there for a little while at least, so it's certainly possible to visit it. Alfred might not like Rashid, but Rashid still visited the island.
So I would imagine that the Council could send a party of Wizards to check the place out every so often.
And even if that isn't a viable option, it would not be that hard to keep track of who visited. The Council has vast resources of money. They could put a few boats on Lake Michigan in the area, disguised as ordinary fishermen or pleasure boaters or whatever to keep track of the waters around the island, they could hire someone to run a radar set on such boats to watch the skies about. It just wouldn't be that hard for the Council to keep track of comings and goings, at least in the real world. We don't know how hard it would be to access Demonreach through the Nevernever, but Nicodemus seemed to think it would be...difficult. And I suspect the White Council has the resources to keep track of the Nevernever near Demonreach, too.
It really is strange that the Council doesn't seem to be doing that, considering what that place is. Maybe, maybe, they're afraid of calling attention to it by watching it too closely...but I don't really buy that.
Mira has a point, this is really strange.
I suspect the most important problem is, the White Council doesn't choose who becomes the island's Warden. I'm pretty sure it's Alfred choice. According to Harry, performing a Sanctum invocation is dangerous, so it isn't something most wizards ever do. So the Council would be hard pressed to find volunteers to attempt to do what Harry did.
I suspect the Council usually does choose the Warden, when there is one. They might have to be careful to choose somone acceptable to Alfred, but I doubt that's an insuperable barrier.
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I suspect the Council usually does choose the Warden, when there is one. They might have to be careful to choose somone acceptable to Alfred, but I doubt that's an insuperable barrier.
Yeah, I think an important factor is what happens to the rejects? If the wizard who doesn't pass the test dies,the the Council would have a real problem trying to recruit suitable candidates. Another factor is the real danger of corruption of the Warden because the temptation to use the Ley line of the island is just too strong. Apparently from what Rashid was hinting at, very few wizards are both strong enough in talent and character to use that Ley line without being altered by it.. If I am right about Kemmler, he used it and was altered by it for the worse.
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We've never seen Alfred act on its own volition to imprison someone. At the times when the Denarians were on the island, there was no Warden to give the order to imprison them. Almost all the creatures and beings in that prison are there because someone (i.e. the White Council I'm pretty sure) put them there.
Could the prison hold a Denarian? I imagine so. Could it hold a Coin? I'm not so sure. If nothing else, there would be the risk of infernal intervention.
I have to agree with Mira on this. Maybe Alfred doesn't like visitors on the island or maybe not, we just don't know. Apparently someone was able to operate a cannery there for a little while at least, so it's certainly possible to visit it. Alfred might not like Rashid, but Rashid still visited the island.
So I would imagine that the Council could send a party of Wizards to check the place out every so often.
And even if that isn't a viable option, it would not be that hard to keep track of who visited. The Council has vast resources of money. They could put a few boats on Lake Michigan in the area, disguised as ordinary fishermen or pleasure boaters or whatever to keep track of the waters around the island, they could hire someone to run a radar set on such boats to watch the skies about. It just wouldn't be that hard for the Council to keep track of comings and goings, at least in the real world. We don't know how hard it would be to access Demonreach through the Nevernever, but Nicodemus seemed to think it would be...difficult. And I suspect the White Council has the resources to keep track of the Nevernever near Demonreach, too.
It really is strange that the Council doesn't seem to be doing that, considering what that place is. Maybe, maybe, they're afraid of calling attention to it by watching it too closely...but I don't really buy that.
Mira has a point, this is really strange.
I suspect the Council usually does choose the Warden, when there is one. They might have to be careful to choose someone acceptable to Alfred, but I doubt that's an insuperable barrier.
Everything to do with Demonreach is a retcon it seems though.
In Small Favor, where we are introduced to it, a large group of non-wizards were able to reside there long enough to build a cannery and dock. How? The psychic pressure of the island gave Karrin, Michael and even Thomas horrible nightmares after just a day or so of exposure. Its vibes are strong enough to get it excluded from all maps of Lake Michigan and flight paths into Chicago steer clear of it. That's a pretty strong ward.
In fact, the strength of that ward and the Ley lines coming from the island ought to draw magical talents like flies and mosquitos to a bug zapper. Practitioners should get a "bad idea" warning when they think of approaching, but there's no way it'd be unknown, if only for the huge ley lines coming from the center of a large body of water.
And why aren't there any older wizards using those ley lines along the shores of Lake Michigan? You'd think it would be a wizardly lake town and retreat. If you say the White Council stops those wizards because they are suspicious, why don't they have permanent presence there?
The only theory I can come up with is that it is part of Rashiid's duties as the Gatekeeper. He does know a Way to the island and has some history with it. Perhaps he pops in from time to time to see if it has a Warden. His foresight may even have shown him Harry in the role and doing a good job.
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And why aren't there any older wizards using those ley lines along the shores of Lake Michigan? You'd think it would be a wizardly lake town and retreat. If you say the White Council stops those wizards because they are suspicious, why don't they have permanent presence there?
Unless there are rules against that very thing with in the White Council, or simply no wizard unless he or she is a Warden is welcome on a permanent basis on the island.
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Unless there are rules against that very thing with in the White Council, or simply no wizard unless he or she is a Warden is welcome on a permanent basis on the island.
But this wouldn't require going to the island, I'm talking about being on the shores of Lake Michigan. We know that the enemy is doing this because there were two ritual sites being used inCold Days to launch attacks against Demonreach that were stopped by forces from Lara and Marcone. Those would seem like good places for a group of monitoring Wardens to set up shop.
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But this wouldn't require going to the island, I'm talking about being on the shores of Lake Michigan. We know that the enemy is doing this because there were two ritual sites being used inCold Days to launch attacks against Demonreach that were stopped by forces from Lara and Marcone. Those would seem like good places for a group of monitoring Wardens to set up shop.
Why did they launch the attack? Or were able to? Because though Harry had been named Warden, he hadn't learned anything about setting up the real defenses of the island yet. Notice the difference in Battle Ground, Harry was now a fully engaged Warden had engaged the island's full defenses, HWWB tried to sneak in using Justine to get Harry open up the defenses so that Justine could visit Thomas. Why? Because that's the only way he'd get in, if he had been able to fool Harry into letting him in as Justine. In other words with a Warden fully engaged, the attack attempt we saw in Cold Days would not have happened.
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Why did they launch the attack? Or were able to? Because though Harry had been named Warden, he hadn't learned anything about setting up the real defenses of the island yet. Notice the difference in Battle Ground, Harry was now a fully engaged Warden had engaged the island's full defenses, HWWB tried to sneak in using Justine to get Harry open up the defenses so that Justine could visit Thomas. Why? Because that's the only way he'd get in, if he had been able to fool Harry into letting him in as Justine. In other words with a Warden fully engaged, the attack attempt we saw in Cold Days would not have happened.
Which circles back to the lack of security.
The island didn't have an active Warden for decades. At any time, those two sights could have been occupied or at monitored to keep the bad guys from setting up shop on them. " An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" applies here.
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Which circles back to the lack of security.
The island didn't have an active Warden for decades. At any time, those two sights could have been occupied or at monitored to keep the bad guys from setting up shop on them. " An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" applies here.
Doing so may have revealed the island's secret. Also I doubt that the White Council has any control over the island. The island picks and chooses who it want's to be it's keeper or Warden, not the White Council.
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Doing so may have revealed the island's secret. Also I doubt that the White Council has any control over the island. The island picks and chooses who it want's to be it's keeper or Warden, not the White Council.
But this wouldn't require going to the island, I'm talking about being on the shores of Lake Michigan. We know that the enemy is doing this because there were two ritual sites being used inCold Days to launch attacks against Demonreach that were stopped by forces from Lara and Marcone. Those would seem like good places for a group of monitoring Wardens to set up shop.
My own theories about the island is that its a known secret. All the major players know about it and for the sake of peace agree ( informally of course) to leaveit alone.
The Nicky and nickelhead are exceptions. They don't care about the rules both formal and informal.
Plus is it possible that the fallen can shield their host from the effects of the island
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My own theories about the island is that its a known secret. All the major players know about it and for the sake of peace agree ( informally of course) to leaveit alone.
The Nicky and nickelhead are exceptions. They don't care about the rules both formal and informal.
Plus is it possible that the fallen can shield their host from the effects of the island
But that means taking no precautions against the biggest rulebreakers of all, the Outsiders and their agents. They might be the only ones that will attack the island but they also represent the biggest threat.
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But that means taking no precautions against the biggest rulebreakers of all, the Outsiders and their agents. They might be the only ones that will attack the island but they also represent the biggest threat.
That is why it is so important that the island have a Warden. However like with so many things the White Council has their collective heads up their arses. My own thinking is they fear the possible rise of another Kemmler more than the possible assault on the island by Outsiders, so they are content what defenses the island can mount on it's own, is enough. This fits a pattern with them, any young kid with talent goes astray, instead of putting him or her under the Doom, give all of them the chop. They fear abuse of mental magic, so only allow the teaching of a minimal and largely ineffective mental defense technique against mental attack.
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That is why it is so important that the island have a Warden. However like with so many things the White Council has their collective heads up their arses. My own thinking is they fear the possible rise of another Kemmler more than the possible assault on the island by Outsiders, so they are content what defenses the island can mount on it's own, is enough. This fits a pattern with them, any young kid with talent goes astray, instead of putting him or her under the Doom, give all of them the chop. They fear abuse of mental magic, so only allow the teaching of a minimal and largely ineffective mental defense technique against mental attack.
Ok a couple of things
1) the attack in CD was an anomaly. The Island was attacked by Fae , The ladies and their retinues. That not an everyday thing. The defenses were at their weakest and they held. Its mentioned that the Fae are close to nature sothe Island was weak against them.
2) Mab mentions that the Alfred could have chosen to stop them rather than just standing there.
3 (yeah i know couple means 2 but i can neither confirm or deny that i am not a fae as noone has asked)
Santa Claus was on the case, Lea was on the case , Mab was on the case ,hell the Goblin king was on it.
Point being it was an attack that played on the Island's weaknesses. And the major powers were ready to step in.
One last thing is the Island part of the WC sphere of responsibility or not. Cause if it is the WC has a right to choose the Warden or the right to at least nominate a suitable candidate. But if its not the WC JUST has to seat back and may observe the situation from afar which is exactly what they have done
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1) the attack in CD was an anomaly. The Island was attacked by Fae , The ladies and their retinues. That not an everyday thing. The defenses were at their weakest and they held. Its mentioned that the Fae are close to nature sothe Island was weak against them.
No, they really didn't, it was the fight that Molly helped to put up, along with Harry and the others. The actual final defenses for the prison itself were never tested. If Harry hadn't been able to summon Mab, who aided Murphy in shooting Maeve, it could have gone the other way.
2) Mab mentions that the Alfred could have chosen to stop them rather than just standing there.
Did she? I don't remember that line, do you have a quote? I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't remember it. Also Alfred can't choose, he has to be ordered, if it were that simple it wouldn't have been as close as it was. Even if Harry had ordered him, apparently the defenses of the island are a bit more complex that's why it took Harry a year to learn them and put them in place. And notice in Skin Game Mab was actually asking permission to come onto the island where as in Cold Days she didn't.
3 (yeah i know couple means 2 but i can neither confirm or deny that i am not a fae as noone has asked)
Santa Claus was on the case, Lea was on the case , Mab was on the case ,hell the Goblin king was on it.
Point being it was an attack that played on the Island's weaknesses. And the major powers were ready to step in.
One last thing is the Island part of the WC sphere of responsibility or not. Cause if it is the WC has a right to choose the Warden or the right to at least nominate a suitable candidate. But if its not the WC JUST has to seat back and may observe the situation from afar which is exactly what they have done
And they were losing until Maeve was killed. If all you say is true, then why did the powers wait until the last minute?
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No, they really didn't, it was the fight that Molly helped to put up, along with Harry and the others. The actual final defenses for the prison itself were never tested. If Harry hadn't been able to summon Mab, who aided Murphy in shooting Maeve, it could have gone the other way.
Did she? I don't remember that line, do you have a quote? I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't remember it. Also Alfred can't choose, he has to be ordered, if it were that simple it wouldn't have been as close as it was. Even if Harry had ordered him, apparently the defenses of the island are a bit more complex that's why it took Harry a year to learn them and put them in place. And notice in Skin Game Mab was actually asking permission to come onto the island where as in Cold Days she didn't.
And they were losing until Maeve was killed. If all you say is true, then why did the powers wait until the last minute?
Chapter 46 cold days,
Harry says to Molly
Demonreach was meant to keep things in, not out, but I didn’t want to blab about that in front of mixed company. “It encourages everyone to stay away, and turns up the heat slowly for anyone who doesn’t,” I said back. “But that’s when it isn’t being attacked by an army of cultists and a horde of howling freaks from beyond reality. It was busy making sure none of the Outsiders could come up onto shore—and none of them could. It just outmuscled an army led by something that could go could go toe-to-toe with Mab. Everything has its limits.
Chapter
you do.”
Chapter 52
Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground. From me, she turned to Demonreach. “I thank you for your patience and your assistance in this matter. You could have reacted differently but chose not to. I am aware of the decision. It will not be forgotten.”
Sorry i have a hardcopy so yeah
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Demonreach was meant to keep things in, not out, but I didn’t want to blab about that in front of mixed company.
That's the important sentence here... Back in chapter 17 page 171 when Harry visits the island with Bob.. Bob and Alfred explain why a Warden is needed for the place.
"THE EXPLANATION WOULD DAMAGE YOU, WARDEN."
Bob made an impatient sound. "Because the spirit isthe island, Harry The spells, the Well,the physical island, all of it. Demonreach does not existoutside this island. It has noability to reach beyond itself. The attack is coming from outsidethe prison. That's why it needs a Warden in the first place."
Chapter 52
Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground. From me, she turned to Demonreach. “I thank you for your patience and your assistance in this matter. You could have reacted differently but chose not to. I am aware of the decision. It will not be forgotten.”
Sorry i have a hardcopy so yeah
Since Alfred was meant to keep things in, and once the breech was made had to rely on a fail safe, i.e. blowing up the island taking with it a huge chunk of North America.. I believe Mab was thanking Alfred for not being too hasty in making that choice once Maeve had breached the last of his defenses. While yeah, maybe you can say that Alfred chose to delay the fail safe, if Maeve hadn't been defeated in the last minute, it would have been used. Also keep in mind, it wasn't Alfred that stopped Maeve, it was Murphy with Mab's help.
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Everything to do with Demonreach is a retcon it seems though.
In Small Favor, where we are introduced to it, a large group of non-wizards were able to reside there long enough to build a cannery and dock. How? The psychic pressure of the island gave Karrin, Michael and even Thomas horrible nightmares after just a day or so of exposure. Its vibes are strong enough to get it excluded from all maps of Lake Michigan and flight paths into Chicago steer clear of it. That's a pretty strong ward.
I could see it being that Karrin and Michael are more 'sensitive' to such things because of their own experiences, ditto Thomas even more so as a White Vampire. Ordinary folks might not 'feel' the repulsion as strongly, or as fast, that might have enabled the cannery to run for a while before nobody could stand it.
Alternatively, the former cannery might have been a 'cover' for something supernatural trying to do something against the island. But that's just wild-ass-guess speculation.
We just don't have enough information, enough basic data.
Also, it's probably not just the ward. I'm not sure Alfred even could influence the pilots and other people beyond its domain.
I think somebody, somewhere, has to be deliberately pulling strings in the FAA and other institutions to keep flight paths away and so forth. If it was just the repulsion from the island, tracking radars and onboard instruments would detect the planes leaving their course in that area, and Questions would be asked.
For that matter, the cannery had employees, presumably their employment records and tax returns and so forth are on file somewhere. The island exists and if the cannery was there, that suggests that someone in the mundane world theoretically owns the land (my guess would be the White Council through shells).
Speculation: the island is run/owned/controlled by a coalition of supernatural powers including the White Council, but also including some other heavy players too. That might help explain the long gaps in Warden-dom, it might be that the various power players just can't agree on who should be the man (or woman).
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Doing so may have revealed the island's secret. Also I doubt that the White Council has any control over the island. The island picks and chooses who it want's to be it's keeper or Warden, not the White Council.
I doubt Alfred is the only power involved. Alfred can't reach out beyond the island and choose someone, after all. Somebody would have to come to the island and offer himself (or herself) for the job, like Harry.
So I suspect the Council usually plays at least some role in the appointment.
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I doubt Alfred is the only power involved. Alfred can't reach out beyond the island and choose someone, after all. Somebody would have to come to the island and offer himself (or herself) for the job, like Harry.
So I suspect the Council usually plays at least some role in the appointment.
Or it is a mistake made by the original Merlin, that only the island can decide on who is to be it's Warden. As stated in Chapter 17
of Cold Days page 171
Bob made an impatient sound. "Because the spirit isthe island, Harry The spells, the Well,the physical island, all of it. Demonreach does not exist outside this island. It has no ability to reach beyond itself. The attack is coming from outside the prison. That's why it needs a Warden in the first place."
There is a compulsion to go to the island, when Harry first steps on it in Small Favor, he feels that he has been there before. I don't think unless you believe the Denarians were steering Harry onto the island to eventually become it's Warden, that there are outside powers involved. It's my opinion that if someone is compelled to perform the sanctum with it and is successful, that person is then Warden.. However because it has no judgement of it's own outside of it's duty to keep the inmates jailed or locking up those the Warden feels need locking up, sometimes Alfred gets it wrong, like it did apparently in the case of Kemmler.
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Or it is a mistake made by the original Merlin, that only the island can decide on who is to be it's Warden. As stated in Chapter 17
of Cold Days page 171
There is a compulsion to go to the island, when Harry first steps on it in Small Favor, he feels that he has been there before.
That's not a compulsion to visit, that's his Sight. Anastasia explained that one to him at the end of the book, it's a deja vu effect that Wizards experience.
Remember the quote you yourself posted, Alfred has no power, no existence, nothing, beyond the bounds of the prison. We don't know if the cutoff point is the shore or just precisely where, but it's close to the island anyway. JB himself once described Alfred's power as being a matter of one's GPS coordinates.
How strong is Demonreach compared to Mab, Nicodemus, and all the other antagonists Harry faces?
That’s depending on where you stand. Like literally your GPS coordinates. If you’re in the right spot, don’t mess with Demonreach, and if you’re not, who cares. He’s one of those situations. If you want to go out to that island and play, you better bring your A game, is the way it works out.
So your quote and that one both support the idea that Alfred is powerless beyond the island.
That doesn't mean somebody didn't arrange for Harry to meet Alfred, just that it almost certainly wasn't Alfred.
Incidentally, I don't know if JB intended this or not, but the name 'Alfred' might be ironic. We've seen that the Faerie royal mantles have some kind of influence over him, and the name 'Alf-red' is cognate with 'elf', IIANM.
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That's not a compulsion to visit, that's his Sight. Anastasia explained that one to him at the end of the book, it's a deja vu effect that Wizards experience.
Remember the quote you yourself posted, Alfred has no power, no existence, nothing, beyond the bounds of the prison. We don't know if the cutoff point is the shore or just precisely where, but it's close to the island anyway. JB himself once described Alfred's power as being a matter of one's GPS coordinates.
I was quoting from the book, which is all I have to go by. I think JB may have fudged on that last point. In Battle Ground, though Alfred could go as far as Chicago to gather up the Titian, Alfred could only do that because of Harry ordering it. It said itself I believe that it could do nothing beyond the shores of the island without Harry. I have to go back and reread that part, so not positive on it. However I remember something about Harry asking Alfred why it just couldn't go and get her.
Yes, I am aware of what Luccio said about the sight, and I may have not been clear enough. Harry ended up on the island in the first place to save Ivy and Marcone in Small Favor, then he felt that he had been there before. This led later on in Turn Coat Harry asking Morgan questions about the island, which led him to believe it was the safest place to confront the Senior Council over Morgan. That's where the idea came to him to perform the sanctum thing with the island.. So if other powers influence future Wardens to come to this island, I guess you could say Nic of the Denarians and the Warden, Morgan are it. I think it unlikely that Nic did it, unless of course he thought because Harry would have Lasciel in his head, that in the future as Warden of Demonreach Harry could be of value to the Denarians.. It is possible if Morgan knew about the prison or what the island was, he thought Harry would make a good Warden, but I also think that unlikely. I think if Rashid and Eb were a bit shocked that Harry could pull it off, I doubt that Morgan would believe given the consequences of the sanctum would think that Harry could pull it off.
So your quote and that one both support the idea that Alfred is powerless beyond the island.
That doesn't mean somebody didn't arrange for Harry to meet Alfred, just that it almost certainly wasn't Alfred.
It doesn't, but at the same time very unlikely, because in the same chapter Harry says that Alfred spoke to him in Ghost Story when Harry was hanging out in his grave. Alfred answered that he had bargained with Mab to be able to do that, otherwise he couldn't and hadn't ever spoken to him or left the island.
Incidentally, I don't know if JB intended this or not, but the name 'Alfred' might be ironic. We've seen that the Faerie royal mantles have some kind of influence over him, and the name 'Alf-red' is cognate with 'elf', IIANM.
Possible, but I think it's more of an unintended coincidence, I think it is what it appears to be, Harry calling it Alfred after Batman's faithful butler and keeper of the secrets of the Batcave.