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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on August 18, 2024, 08:32:38 PM
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I was rereading the passage in Blood Rites where Harry has his soul gaze with Thomas and has a conversation with Margaret.
She tells Harry something about Thomas, the Hunger Demon, and Justine that caught my eye.
Blood Rites, page 171
My mother nodded at Thomas."The girl he loved. She is gone. She was his strength. It knows that."
Margaret doesn't say that Thomas thinks she is gone. She doesn't say, Believes she is gone.No, she says quite clearly that Justine is gone. Maybe I am just splitting hairs here, but it seems to me that Margaret isn't beating around the bush here, Justine is gone, as in dead. You might ask the question about how would she know for sure? Which is a good question, but Margaret also says that the Hunger Demon in Thomas knows. So if Margaret meant that Justine was indeed dead, could this be the moment when Nemesis made it's entrance? Also there is a reason for the Hunger Demon to go along, if it is connected to Outsiders. Anyway, if I am right, Thomas did kill Justine after all in Blood Rites, and then her body was taken over by Nemesis, the Hunger playing along. Nemesis needed years to get all the chess pieces in place, years to manipulate Thomas into striking when he did. Nemesis needed Justine's body for that, needed to be Justine to manipulate Thomas into the events that led to Battle Ground.
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I was rereading the passage in Blood Rites where Harry has his soul gaze with Thomas and has a conversation with Margaret.
She tells Harry something about Thomas, the Hunger Demon, and Justine that caught my eye.
Blood Rites, page 171
Margaret doesn't say that Thomas thinks she is gone. She doesn't say, Believes she is gone.No, she says quite clearly that Justine is gone. Maybe I am just splitting hairs here, but it seems to me that Margaret isn't beating around the bush here, Justine is gone, as in dead. You might ask the question about how would she know for sure? Which is a good question, but Margaret also says that the Hunger Demon in Thomas knows. So if Margaret meant that Justine was indeed dead, could this be the moment when Nemesis made it's entrance? Also there is a reason for the Hunger Demon to go along, if it is connected to Outsiders. Anyway, if I am right, Thomas did kill Justine after all in Blood Rites, and then her body was taken over by Nemesis, the Hunger playing along. Nemesis needed years to get all the chess pieces in place, years to manipulate Thomas into striking when he did. Nemesis needed Justine's body for that, needed to be Justine to manipulate Thomas into the events that led to Battle Ground.
It's an interesting notion.
But before analyzing too deeply, I want to ask: what -- not who, but what -- was Harry talking to?
I had been presuming a sort of pre-programmed simulacrum, a miniature "spirit of knowledge" along the lines of Bob (or Lash & Bonea (and likely the Archive)) that Margaret had constructed for Harry before her death; albeit a vastly-lesser one.
But for this thing to be tracking all sorts of extra info -- Thomas, and Thomas' girlfriend -- happening out in the world, it'd need to be considerably more robust, not just pre-programming. Able to conduct reconnaissance, to learn, to adapt... not really "lesser," in fact quite robust.
The "robust" examples -- that we we know of for sure -- are all the work of a much-more-competent & powerful entity than a WC wizard with just a century or so of lived experience... particularly since we already know that her amazing & impressive "best skill" is with the Ways & with faeries. For her to also have stunning (& centuries-beyond her justified skills) degree of experience constructing spirits-of-knowledge would seem to be unlikely.
Which leads me to the next option: it really was his mom... her "ghost" or "spirit" or "soul" or etc. And exactly how that could happen is entirely unexplained... unless she's explicitly working in Uriel's "Spook Service" with Captain Murphy, Carmichael, etc?
But I repeat: before speculating on "what did Margaret mean by that," I'd be looking at "what even was that thing, presenting itself as Margaret??!?"
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But I repeat: before speculating on "what did Margaret mean by that," I'd be looking at "what even was that thing, presenting itself as Margaret??!?"
We don't. It could very well be that she said that Justine was gone, because in his mind at that moment Thomas believed she was gone. As simple as that and the gift of insight was just theatrics. However when she talks about her arrogance, regret about the burden she put [presumably star child, which Harry or Thomas had no clue of at that point] on Harry alone. That's not something you'd expect to find in Thomas's mind, because he simply didn't know about it. That fits with what Malcolm said, and what Lash tells Harry later in White Night. Notice Thomas doesn't say anything about what he saw at his end of the soul gaze of what was in Harry's head, other when Harry says their mom said to tell Thomas she loved him.. Thomas merely says she said to tell Harry the same thing.
Which leads me to the next option: it really was his mom... her "ghost" or "spirit" or "soul" or etc. And exactly how that could happen is entirely unexplained... unless she's explicitly working in Uriel's "Spook Service" with Captain Murphy, Carmichael, etc?
Actually it is entirely possible that her and Malcolm both are working for Uriel. Malcolm did tell Harry that he wasn'tallowed to come to him before he did, so someone is in charge of what his soul does at any rate, why not Margaret's soul as well? An no, it isn't explained, but normally, at least in all of the soul gazes Harry has had and talked about afterwards, he never actually held a conversation with what he saw, he just observed.
Anyway, it is a tin hat theory, but it is one that could account for how Nemesis managed to get a hold of Justine.. Oh I might add Justine wasn't really the same after "near death" either...
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We don't. It could very well be that she said that Justine was gone, because in his mind at that moment Thomas believed she was gone. As simple as that and the gift of insight was just theatrics.
I lean toward this. I don't think Harry was addressing Margaret's ghost (copy or real soul), I think he was talking to a Lash-style simulacrum, albeit a baby verion of one. I think the only things the simulacrum knew was what Margaret encoded into it, plus data from the host mind, but I think it was present in both Thomas' and Harry's minds, so to speak, or copies of the program were present. I think they linked up in the soulgaze and could share files.
(I suspect she learned how to do the simulacrum by studying the Denarians.)
So I think the simulacrum believed Justine was dead because Thomas and his demon both believed Justine was dead, and so the Thomas-copy of the simulacrum thought that, too.
But that's my hypothesis. It could be something more, but I don't think we have any evidence for it. We just don't have any against it either.
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But that's my hypothesis. It could be something more, but I don't think we have any evidence for it. We just don't have any against it either.
Which is kind of my point, however it is a possible opening for Nemesis. Also and I don't know this for sure either, but wouldn't the Hunger know if it had fed until death? It's been a long time since I read Blood Rites, but the soul gaze happens after Thomas nearly dies, he is in pretty good shape at that point when he tells Harry he is his brother, but no one has told him that Justine lived? Not even Lara? Apparently not, if in the soul gaze it reads that she is gone... But then again "gone" can mean Justine is gone, but her body survives..
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My mother nodded at Thomas."The girl he loved. She is gone. She was his strength. It knows that."
Good find. This strengthens my theory that this was the point in time when Nemesis took over completely. Somewhere I have written, that I think, Thomas wouldn't have had the control to stop feeding on Justine when he was so injured. Nemesis stopped him. Because it was inside her before, probably since Grave Peril, when she was the Reds' prisoner, but once the last remnants of the real Justine were killed in Blood Rites, Justines Body became the main host. During her time of "recovery", Nemesis wasn't always "at home", because it was busy trying to corrupt the Leanansidhe and infecting Maeve and other shenanigans, I am sure.
In Proven Guilty, Lea is seen as a prisoner in the ice garden at Arctis Tor. But the ice is already melting. This is when Nemesis starts to control Justines body again, which can be seen during White Night, when she leads Harry and Carlos to the Deeps.
My theory is, Nemesis can influence several people at the same time, but it can only inhabitate one at a time. So it was trapped in Lea, during her healing by Mab, thus could not be in Justine at the same time.
But there are traces of Nemesis left behind in each host, like a Fallen's shadow, I think. So the manipulation continues, even when Nemesis is not actively inside the person.
But Justine was different, she wasn't just a host any more after Blood Rites. Justine was gone, so Nemesis could not only be in her body as its host, but it could actually BE Justine.
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... I think, Thomas wouldn't have had the control to stop feeding on Justine when he was so injured. Nemesis stopped him. Because it was inside her before, probably since Grave Peril, when she was the Reds' prisoner ...
This is a very, very interesting sequence.
It contradicts testimony in the book... but given that said testimony comes from Nemesis itself, we can presume it's a lie if there were any advantage at all to lying.
And it lines up with my own WAG that Rampires -- led, we note, by the Lords of Outer Night -- had some connection with the Outer Gates and Outsiders.
Nemfecting Justine while they had control of her seems like a very Nemesis-long-play move.
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OTOH, Nemesis' own testimony is highly plausible for another reason: "when Justine got close to Lara" is another likely infection-point, because Papa Raith had multiple bits of Outsider magic & WoJ is that he had collected a bunch of materials in an effort to become a power-player in the upcoming Starborn/Apocalypse event.
WAG here is that Mab has identified the Whampire Court as a previously-unknown Nemfection vector... so, she has pulled Harry's pin and tossed a Dresden-shaped grenade (Starborn Wizard Winterknight with twin penchants for investigation & mayhem) into Nemesis' bunker...
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OTOH, Nemesis' own testimony is highly plausible for another reason: "when Justine got close to Lara" is another likely infection-point
I think the words "close to Lara" are meant to make us think it means when Justine started to work for Lara.
But in my theory it can also mean "close to Lara" in location. Meaning either Justine got infected during her imprisonment in Grave Peril and because she was Thomas' girlfriend and Thomas during that time often met with Lara offscreen. So she often was in proximity to Lara.
Or Justine was even the first vector, the first nemfected person.
Iirc the question in Battle Ground was "since when have you been in Justine?"
What if Justine was Nemesis' plant all along. Everything planned, from the moment she met Thomas till the end in BG. Becoming Thomas' girlfriend could also be seen as "close to Lara".
I always thought it weird, that the Reds wanted her before. What interest could they have in one weak human girl? They could have any other girl. Why Justine?
And yes, all of this already implies that in theory the Reds worked for the Outsiders.
All of this almost purely speculation, of course.
Edit: the Reds' interest could have been faked to push Thomas to act and safe her, thus making it more probable for her to become his girlfriend.
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And it lines up with my own WAG that Rampires -- led, we note, by the Lords of Outer Night -- had some connection with the Outer Gates and Outsiders.
Nemfecting Justine while they had control of her seems like a very Nemesis-long-play move.
Yes, and here are a couple of points on that, while we don't know for sure, but Outsiders or some power, maybe Nemesis appears to be protecting Lord Raith. That's why even Eb cannot kill him, Harry felt it in Blood Rites when he tried, but Margaret at least found a way to neutralize with her death curse. Who set Thomas up with Justine? Lord Raith. Lord Raith would be one of the few at that point in time who knew that Thomas and Harry were brothers. He might have surmised that Harry was star born, because of Margaret, because he may have been hoping to conceive one with her. Lord Raith then knew at some point down the line Harry would be a threat, long term chess tactics, set up Thomas with Neminfected Justine, Thomas and Harry get together, Justine manipulates Thomas and has a path to destroy Harry.
What if Justine was Nemesis' plant all along. Everything planned, from the moment she met Thomas till the end in BG. Becoming Thomas' girlfriend could also be seen as "close to Lara".
I always thought it weird, that the Reds wanted her before. What interest could they have in one weak human girl? They could have any other girl. Why Justine?
And yes, all of this already implies that in theory the Reds worked for the Outsiders.
Agreed.
One more crazy thought just appeared in my sleep deprived head.. What if it wasn't his mother Harry was talking to in the soul gaze, but Nemesis itself? Ergo the "insight" that she gifted Harry with, was really an attempt at infecting him.. I really don't think so, but it is a possible scenario for who was Harry really talking to in that soul gaze. Crazy thoughts and theories aside, I still think it was Margaret, his mother. We know she was a powerful wizard, and wasn't adverse to breaking the rules. She also had a wizards foresight, yes, real thing remember Luccio telling Harry that his was awakening when he visited Demonreach for the first time? Since Margaret wasn't adverse to breaking the Rules of Magic, she may have come up with a way to imprint some of herself into the heads of both her sons.. Hey, Margaret came up with a way to neutralize Lord Raith, why couldn't she do that as well?
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I think the words "close to Lara" are meant to make us think it means when Justine started to work for Lara.
But in my theory it can also mean "close to Lara" in location. Meaning either Justine got infected during her imprisonment in Grave Peril and because she was Thomas' girlfriend and Thomas during that time often met with Lara offscreen. So she often was in proximity to Lara.
Or Justine was even the first vector, the first nemfected person.
Iirc the question in Battle Ground was "since when have you been in Justine?"
What if Justine was Nemesis' plant all along. Everything planned, from the moment she met Thomas till the end in BG. Becoming Thomas' girlfriend could also be seen as "close to Lara".
I always thought it weird, that the Reds wanted her before. What interest could they have in one weak human girl? They could have any other girl. Why Justine?
And yes, all of this already implies that in theory the Reds worked for the Outsiders.
All of this almost purely speculation, of course.
Edit: the Reds' interest could have been faked to push Thomas to act and safe her, thus making it more probable for her to become his girlfriend.
One concern I have with the 'pre-planned plant' is that Thomas was convinced that Justine had true-love protection. That seems the kind of 'one of a kind' feeling a White Court Vampire wouldn't be wrong about.
Of course that's also a flaw with 'immediately after the near-fatal feeding' for Nemfection, because the True Love protection must have kicked in at/after that feeding.
I can't exclude the possibility Nemesis can simulate it... but in all other Dresden Files situations Love is a rather big deal. To be able to simulate it feels wrong to me.
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... One more crazy thought just appeared in my sleep deprived head.. What if it wasn't his mother Harry was talking to in the soul gaze, but Nemesis itself? Ergo the "insight" that she gifted Harry with, was really an attempt at infecting him.. I really don't think so, but it is a possible scenario for who was Harry really talking to in that soul gaze ...
I presume -- very strongly -- that a Soulgaze is something (likely one of the very few elements) that Nemesis cannot wiggle around. If a wizard Soulgaze's somebody Nemfected, they WILL see it.
(edit: upon reflection, I no longer hold this opinion)
AFAIK, however, this is unaddressed by WoJ.
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One concern I have with the 'pre-planned plant' is that Thomas was convinced that Justine had true-love protection. That seems the kind of 'one of a kind' feeling a White Court Vampire wouldn't be wrong about.
Of course that's also a flaw with 'immediately after the near-fatal feeding' for Nemfection, because the True Love protection must have kicked in at/after that feeding.
I can't exclude the possibility Nemesis can simulate it... but in all other Dresden Files situations Love is a rather big deal. To be able to simulate it feels wrong to me.
It's a matter of timing isn't it? Seems to me that the true love thing would have kicked in before not after the sacrifice. Why? Supposedly Justine already loved Thomas so much she was willing to die to save him.. Isn't that the very definition of true love? Then just touching her should have burned the hell out of him, in fact killed him.. Supposedly the love Thomas felt for Justine was so pure and true, that he was willing to sacrifice himself rather than feed until she died.. Again, sounds like true love to me and should have burned the hell out of him, even killed him to touch her.. Supposedly it's an automatic thing, so did Justine have a quickie with someone else so Thomas could feed upon her? Or was Justine long gone at the time of the feeding? Thomas was dying, supposedly pretty much out of it at the time of the feeding, he would just feed until he was aware it was Justine he was killing.. So yeah, a Neminfected Justine could have faked it.. Returning to another point of when the soul gaze happened, Thomas had recovered, both he and the Hunger should have known by then that Justine survived if she survived, but that wasn't what Harry saw. After that? Why would it be so hard for Nemesis to fake true love? So much so that Thomas would believe it? Nemesis is a real bad ass foe, both Winter and Summer Courts fear it among others, simulating a true love reaction most likely is a piece of cake for it.. Right up to the last moment on the boat going to Demonreach Justine/Nemesis had Harry fooled..
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Right up to the last moment on the boat going to Demonreach Justine/Nemesis had Harry fooled..
I disagree there; Harry felt something off, just wasn't sure what.
When it was about 'emotional reaction to sad news' it didn't trigger a total 'huh', sure...
But if it was towards Thomas about 'our literal worst-possible thing' I'd think even a 'huh that's weird, is it really THE thing'.
And of course Justine had plenty later interactions with parties on the Outsider team, to allow 'act of true love was real, nemfection was later'.
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I disagree there; Harry felt something off, just wasn't sure what.
When it was about 'emotional reaction to sad news' it didn't trigger a total 'huh', sure...
But if it was towards Thomas about 'our literal worst-possible thing' I'd think even a 'huh that's weird, is it really THE thing'.
And of course Justine had plenty later interactions with parties on the Outsider team, to allow 'act of true love was real, nemfection was later'.
But that's the point right? People react, "pregnant people," with hormones a blazing don't always react as expected. Perfect cover, and unless you were looking for Nemesis, would you spot it? No, easy to shrug off for the reasons just stated and Nemesis would be the last thing on Harry's mind at that moment. So Harry didn't make the connection, even though shortly after he leaves her apartment building he is attacked by Corner Hounds..
You could say that Justine became Neminfected at some point right after Changes, when Justine decides to have Lesbian sex so the true love protection was broken and her and Thomas could act physically with each other like a normal couple without him getting a second degree burn every time... However one also has to ask, if they had true love since Blood Rites, and the fix was that simple, why didn't they do that earlier? Unless earlier didn't suit Nemesis's timeline and back in the time of Blood Rites, Harry was just a wizard detective and the Red Court was still very much a force.. Remember since Storm Front Harry had been trying to figure out who or what was in the shadows pulling the strings, using others as cat's paws, he called them the Black Council, remember? So if the Black Council is Nemesis, what a perfect way to penetrate the enemy than to use their lovely pawn, Justine in the great chess game. Moving quietly around, unnoticed, until it was time to upset or try to upset the whole damn board.
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I had been presuming a sort of pre-programmed simulacrum, a miniature "spirit of knowledge" along the lines of Bob (or Lash & Bonea (and likely the Archive)) that Margaret had constructed for Harry before her death; albeit a vastly-lesser one.
But for this thing to be tracking all sorts of extra info -- Thomas, and Thomas' girlfriend -- happening out in the world, it'd need to be considerably more robust, not just pre-programming. Able to conduct reconnaissance, to learn, to adapt... not really "lesser," in fact quite robust.
What if holo-Margaret was talking to Harry during the soulgaze because she placed it in Thomas, like a miniature version of the Fallen leaving a shadow? The simulacrum's ability to learn would be limited to accessing whatever Thomas experiences. She'd believe Justine was dead because Thomas believed it. That would probably cut the difficulty factor considerably. And a simple construct would probably have pretty limited capacity to account for the host believing something but being wrong.
While Justine was near death is an excellent possibility for when she was Nemfected, though. Thomas thought she was already gone, Lord Raith would have had ample opportunity to let his allies get at her while she was convalescing. It's not conclusive though, have been other Outsider collaborators in the White Court who could have got to her later.
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While Justine was near death is an excellent possibility for when she was Nemfected, though. Thomas thought she was already gone, Lord Raith would have had ample opportunity to let his allies get at her while she was convalescing. It's not conclusive though, have been other Outsider collaborators in the White Court who could have got to her later.
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The Hunger Demon would know though whether or not Justine was dead. Margaret says, "It knows she is gone."
Whether Thomas believes it or not is important and becomes important as we see in Peace Talks where he is willing to murder to keep the woman he believes is very much alive, safe. What I am wondering is there a connection between Nemesis and the Hunger Demon? Did Margaret come to realize this? Is this why she was compelled to conceive a star child with Malcolm? Is this to the key of while she couldn't kill Lord Raith outright with her death curse, perhaps she could damage the Hunger Demon? Yes, Nemesis still protects Lord Raith, keeping him alive, however he is weakened considerably because his Hunger Demon is effectively dead?
And yes, Justine was one of those long term under the radar plans. Lord Raith just happens to send the beautiful insane Justine to Thomas. Thomas is so charmed that he falls in love and feeds on her just enough to cure her insanity? Then they play all these games for years to prevent "true love" from burning him, until it is believed that star born Harry is dead, then suddenly oh just a little unfaithful lesbian sex will cure the burning on contact? When for years it was common knowledge that was all it took to break any true love protection? In the meantime because of Justine'd supposed willing sacrifice to save Thomas, she is given an inside job with Lara and knows everything that goes on with the White Court. Talk about three dimensional chess, how about four or five dimensional chess? Nemesis is playing it well, or did up until the last moment in Battle Ground when Harry discovered that Justine was possessed by HWWB.
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What I am wondering is there a connection between Nemesis and the Hunger Demon? Did Margaret come to realize this? Is this why she was compelled to conceive a star child with Malcolm? Is this to the key of while she couldn't kill Lord Raith outright with her death curse, perhaps she could damage the Hunger Demon?
Like there is a connection between the Black Court and Outsiders? That is an interesting thought. You might be on to something.
However, Mavra mentioned something in Battle Ground about "ruling in the rubble" following the Stars and Stones. Whatever the exact quote is, it isn't important as much as it tells us the Black Court has a long-term plan and because the Black Court is connected in someway to the Outsiders their plan is most likely tied into Outsider goals.
So far, we haven't seen that kind of end-game thinking from the White Court yet, other than Lara knowing about Nemesis. That could be because Lord Raith has been effectively if temporarily put on the sideline or permanently lobotomized. If he was still in power, perhaps Lord Raith would have revealed his endgame plan for the White Court.
What bothers about this line of thinking is, the White Court seems to thrive with civilization. I'm not seeing a strong motivation to see mortal civilization torn apart. While the Black Court could benefit from some kind of post apocalyptic world.
In the end, this doesn't nullify your thinking. One way to explain it is unintended consequences. The Outsiders are so different from our world they can't anticipate everything. Maybe there is a connection between Outsiders and the White Court Hunger Demon, but the Outsiders couldn't have known that their creation or one-time close ally would eventually have a strong reason to oppose them.
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What bothers about this line of thinking is, the White Court seems to thrive with civilization. I'm not seeing a strong motivation to see mortal civilization torn apart. While the Black Court could benefit from some kind of post apocalyptic world.
Yes, they do appear civilized, but are they really? They are cultured, clean, rich, attractive, so they are allowed to thrive, we think of them as civilized. However these are the same beings who will suck the life out of a mortal by feeding upon his or her emotions. This a group of beings that think of vanilla human beings as "kine" or prey to be fed upon.. This is the group that would imprison the little folk so they can have nice colorful lanterns at their parties. So as long as they have a source of food, and can create their own "civilized" islands they can thrive in a post apoplectic world as well as the Black Court in my opinion.
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Yes, they do appear civilized, but are they really? They are cultured, clean, rich, attractive, so they are allowed to thrive, we think of them as civilized. However these are the same beings who will suck the life out of a mortal by feeding upon his or her emotions. This a group of beings that think of vanilla human beings as "kine" or prey to be fed upon.. This is the group that would imprison the little folk so they can have nice colorful lanterns at their parties. So as long as they have a source of food, and can create their own "civilized" islands they can thrive in a post apoplectic world as well as the Black Court in my opinion.
Eh, I could see some deluded megalomaniac thinking that, but not the sophisticated strategists that actually lead the White Court. It's easier to prey on a thriving species over one that's marginalized and you have to actively farm.
Humans also started farming fish on a serious scale only when the seas stopped providing quite so plentiful.
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Eh, I could see some deluded megalomaniac thinking that, but not the sophisticated strategists that actually lead the White Court. It's easier to prey on a thriving species over one that's marginalized and you have to actively farm.
I wouldn't call farming humans for food exactly civilized.
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I wouldn't call farming humans for food exactly civilized.
'Civilized' in this context does not mean 'moral'. The traditional root of the word 'civilized' is 'city dweller'. It implies large-scale social organization, complexity, sophistication, but by no means necessarily morality. The gladiatorial games in ancient Rome were quite 'civilized' entertainments, for all being organized mass torture and murder. When they enter decadent phases, civilizations often become very morally corrupt.
The White Court is all about decadence. The White Court nobles tend to have expensive, sophisticated tastes. They like fine wines, delicate foods, vintage cars, expensive clothes, silk and satin and fine carved furniture and woven rugs that cost more than a working-class family lives on in a year.
In Turn Coat, Binder points this out.
In a post-apocalyptic world, a lot of the luxuries the White Court so like simply could not exist. Yeah, they could have their little protected enclaves, but a lot of the delicious, luxurious products that they so love absolutely require a sophisticated world-wide economy and tech base to produce and maintain.
Such little protected islands would have no silver wraith cars, no super-expensive foods flown in from around the world, there'd be no movies and TV shows and so forth.
Every box of fine chocolates Lara indulges in implies cocoa farms, harvesting personnel, transportation to get the harvest to the factory, a factory to process it, a chocolatier to take the processed chocolate and make the expensive little tidbits out of it, more distribution systems to get that $1000.00 box of chocolates to Lara's bedroom. Which implies gasoline and jet fuel and communications, which imply refineries and oil wells and TV/radio equipment or at least telegraphs or systems of messengers, etc.
Magic can get around some of this, but not nearly all.
Life even in the nobles' protected fortresses would be a lot less delicious and rich and exotic than the nobles have now.
Yeah, the White Court loves civilization. Doesn't make them any the less predators who feed on people.
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LordDresden2 makes a really good point, but I would like to add something else.
A White Court vampire is an odd creature when compared to other types of vampires that we know of. Black Court and Red Court vampires take a human and literally transform them into something else. In a very real way they destroy the original human. However, a White Court vampire is a hybrid creature. It is human-being that had a demon implanted within it before it was born, but the human is still there.
We know a White Court vamp isn’t a simulacrum of a human because Thomas’ little sister Inari was able to kill her demon before it took hold of her. (Saying the Power of Love killed the demon sounds like Huey Lewis and the News killed the demon and I never really liked Huey Lewis.)
The White Court demon doesn’t originate from our world, so it isn’t really a part of human civilization. The human part of a White Court vampire can appreciate the finer things that come with human civilization. Though we don’t know very much about White Court demons, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are not interested in these luxuries; and the only benefit of human civilization they enjoy is that human civilization tends to create many more targets of opportunity to feed on and a larger crowd to blend in with to make hiding in plain site much easier.
It is this otherness of the White Court demon that I really wanted to talk about. Thinking about the soulgaze where Harry witnessed his brother fighting against the demon trying to come through the mirror, it reminds me of these other creatures who are also trying to enter our reality, Outsiders.
I am wondering if White Court demons are a lessor form of Outsiders or if they might be a failed attempt by Outsiders to enter our reality. Yes, they do get inside our reality but they remain trapped within their human host. When their host dies, they die. Unlike Nemesis, they cannot fully dominate their host. The demon wants to feed, to destroy, and they do that to a degree, but the human part of them channels most of that energy and supernatural abilities into human endeavors, like becoming wealthy, powerful or building a political empire.
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A White Court vampire is an odd creature when compared to other types of vampires that we know of. Black Court and Red Court vampires take a human and literally transform them into something else. In a very real way they destroy the original human. However, a White Court vampire is a hybrid creature. It is human-being that had a demon implanted within it before it was born, but the human is still there.
But doesn't change the fact that that they kill humans to survive.
We know a White Court vamp isn’t a simulacrum of a human because Thomas’ little sister Inari was able to kill her demon before it took hold of her. (Saying the Power of Love killed the demon sounds like Huey Lewis and the News killed the demon and I never really liked Huey Lewis.)
Actually Inari hadn't killed the Hunger Demon yet, it was the hope of both Thomas and Lara that she loved her boyfriend enough that that would be the outcome. So we won't know unless we meet up with Inari again in a future book.
The White Court demon doesn’t originate from our world, so it isn’t really a part of human civilization. The human part of a White Court vampire can appreciate the finer things that come with human civilization. Though we don’t know very much about White Court demons, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are not interested in these luxuries; and the only benefit of human civilization they enjoy is that human civilization tends to create many more targets of opportunity to feed on and a larger crowd to blend in with to make hiding in plain site much easier.
Is why if it is true, it points to a possible connection between Outsiders and what is protecting Lord Raith.
It is this otherness of the White Court demon that I really wanted to talk about. Thinking about the soulgaze where Harry witnessed his brother fighting against the demon trying to come through the mirror, it reminds me of these other creatures who are also trying to enter our reality, Outsiders.
Yes.
I am wondering if White Court demons are a lessor form of Outsiders or if they might be a failed attempt by Outsiders to enter our reality. Yes, they do get inside our reality but they remain trapped within their human host. When their host dies, they die. Unlike Nemesis, they cannot fully dominate their host. The demon wants to feed, to destroy, and they do that to a degree, but the human part of them channels most of that energy and supernatural abilities into human endeavors, like becoming wealthy, powerful or building a political empire.
I think the Hunger Demon does fully dominate their host. Why? Because once the Hunger Demon has fully established itself, the host needs to feed it, i.e. usually kill, to survive. Remember how Lara and later Thomas talked after the Skin Walker was finished with him, they enjoy it.. There is another side to the strength that the host gains from the Hunger Demon, power. That is the most addictive power on earth.. Maybe because he was Margaret's son, Thomas never quite got to that point, he never was interested in empire building unlike his sister, Lara, who clearly is.
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But doesn't change the fact that that they kill humans to survive.
I think the Hunger Demon does fully dominate their host. Why? Because once the Hunger Demon has fully established itself, the host needs to feed it, i.e. usually kill, to survive. Remember how Lara and later Thomas talked after the Skin Walker was finished with him, they enjoy it.. There is another side to the strength that the host gains from the Hunger Demon, power. That is the most addictive power on earth.. Maybe because he was Margaret's son, Thomas never quite got to that point, he never was interested in empire building unlike his sister, Lara, who clearly is.
Yes, but I'm not implying that the human side of a White Court vamp is morally superior to the demon within it; and Thomas is an outlier, the human side is almost always corrupted by the drives of the demon and its need to feed. What I am saying is that the human need to socialize and the desire of the host to fit in with uncorrupted humans to ensure its own safety, ends up deflecting the goals of the demon from shear destruction into something that seeks to protect humanity in general, if only for its own selfish ends.
The corrupted human part of a White Court vampire who cannot love another or is afraid to try to do so because love is literal poison to them, can be likened to a psychopath or someone with narcissistic personality disorder, someone who lacks empathy for other people. Though I suspect that Jim would say my comparison falls short or misses the mark in some key way. None the less, a vanilla person like the types I named above will often try to fill up the empty space within them with sensation seeking, material possessions or building up an empire of some sort, perhaps in business or politics.
And empire building is the opposite of what Outsiders want to achieve. The want to destroy human order of any kind, even the morally decadent and corrupted civilization the White Court would create.
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I think the Hunger Demon does fully dominate their host. Why? Because once the Hunger Demon has fully established itself, the host needs to feed it, i.e. usually kill, to survive. Remember how Lara and later Thomas talked after the Skin Walker was finished with him, they enjoy it.. There is another side to the strength that the host gains from the Hunger Demon, power. That is the most addictive power on earth.. Maybe because he was Margaret's son, Thomas never quite got to that point, he never was interested in empire building unlike his sister, Lara, who clearly is.
Yes, but I'm not implying that the human side of a White Court vamp is morally superior to the demon within it; and Thomas is an outlier, the human side is almost always corrupted by the drives of the demon and its need to feed. What I am saying is that the human need to socialize and the desire of the host to fit in with uncorrupted humans to ensure its own safety, ends up deflecting the goals of the demon from shear destruction into something that seeks to protect humanity in general, if only for its own selfish ends.
We already can be pretty sure that the demon-parasites don't totally dominate their human hosts, because we've seen what that looks like when it does happen, the 'silver eyes' state. Remember Thomas in Turn Coat, when he was about to attack Molly: he wasn't acting like Thomas, he wasn't even acting like a sapient being. It was more like an animal.
I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess. When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct. It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either. Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.
Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry: the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human. Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding. They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.
Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.
That said, I agree with Mira that there is almost surely an Outsider connection of some kind with the parasites. It's interesting that Thomas and Lara both use 'empty night' as a swear phrase.
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We already can be pretty sure that the demon-parasites don't totally dominate their human hosts, because we've seen what that looks like when it does happen, the 'silver eyes' state. Remember Thomas in Turn Coat, when he was about to attack Molly: he wasn't acting like Thomas, he wasn't even acting like a sapient being. It was more like an animal.
That could be said of the Red Court Vampires as well, Bianca could act very civilized, until she got hungry or decided to attack. The silver eyes signaling that the demon needs to feed to survive or is about to attack, what control did the host have over that? None, because the demon took over. Also Thomas has no problem calling on the demon when he needs to fight, to help him. Thomas tried to control his demon and nearly starved to death.. Then there is the other aspect that Thomas confesses to Harry after the Skin Walker got to him, he enjoyed killing. In short Thomas may have some control but his life depends on the demon, and the demon depends on him, neither can live without the other at this point. In any contest between host and this parasite, the parasite always wins.. No, free will for Thomas or any other White Court vampire is an illusion.
I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess. When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct. It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either. Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.
Yeah, but that is a bit fuzzy as well, I think it is very complicated. You have the Hunger demon, in order to survive it needs to eat, so as you say acts like a tiger or bear. However even tigers and bears have hunting strategies that are driven by their hunger, otherwise they starve. The Hunger demon drives it's human host to stalk (odd phrase I know since they feed on the pleasure emotion of others) a victim and then feed upon it. In turn the host get longer life, super human strength etc, the host has figured out, and I imagine the demon as well, that they can't go around feeding until death it's prey and survive in the modern world. So it has made adjustments, but that doesn't make it civilized or different other vampires.
Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry: the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human. Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding. They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.
Same could be said for Black Court or Red Court vampires as well..
Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.
Perhaps because Madeline fed off different emotions than Thomas did. If I remember correctly she fed off of fear and terror, the more she freaked out her prey the more well fed she became. Where as Thomas fed off of sensual and sexual pleasure, also he and Lara both gave out seductive vibes to a would be victim.. Almost all their victims were willing victims.
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That could be said of the Red Court Vampires as well, Bianca could act very civilized, until she got hungry or decided to attack. The silver eyes signaling that the demon needs to feed to survive or is about to attack, what control did the host have over that? None, because the demon took over. Also Thomas has no problem calling on the demon when he needs to fight, to help him. Thomas tried to control his demon and nearly starved to death.. Then there is the other aspect that Thomas confesses to Harry after the Skin Walker got to him, he enjoyed killing. In short Thomas may have some control but his life depends on the demon, and the demon depends on him, neither can live without the other at this point. In any contest between host and this parasite, the parasite always wins.. No, free will for Thomas or any other White Court vampire is an illusion.
The only time the Red Court is comparable to the White Court is when they are not fully turned like Susan, Martin and others in the Fellowship of St. Giles. Susan demonstrated strength, speed, stamina and regenerative powers on par with Thomas that were fueled by blood and not lust. Reds don't become true monsters until after their first kill. They can then look and act human, but their humanity is gone.
Whites remain human throughout their lives but have superhuman abilities. But as long as they have made some effort in their early lives or are not pushed to their physical limits, they retain control of their demon. Both Thomas and Lara have been talked out of their silver eyed states. They enjoy their kills on a visceral level but are capable of feeling regret and guilt afterwards. If Lara couldn't control her daemon, she couldn't have given Thomas energy on the ride to Demonreach. If they didn't have free will. Uriel wouldn't have sympathy for them. Whites have free will but most of them accept or embrace being monsters, they just control their rampages better than most because they don't actually have to kill.
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The only time the Red Court is comparable to the White Court is when they are not fully turned like Susan, Martin and others in the Fellowship of St. Giles. Susan demonstrated strength, speed, stamina and regenerative powers on par with Thomas that were fueled by blood and not lust. Reds don't become true monsters until after their first kill. They can then look and act human, but their humanity is gone.
This is the definition of humanity;
The word humanity is from the Latin humanitas for "human nature, kindness.” Humanity includes all the humans, but it can also refer to the kind feelings humans often have for each other.
Thomas might exhibit it to some extent, but the word doesn't fit most White Court Vamps. Lara doesn't do anything out of kindness.
They enjoy their kills on a visceral level but are capable of feeling regret and guilt afterwards.
Thomas didn't feel any guilt about killing those girls, Lara has never felt any guilt.
If they didn't have free will. Uriel wouldn't have sympathy for them. Whites have free will but most of them accept or embrace being monsters, they just control their rampages better than most because they don't actually have to kill.
They don't have free will once the Hunger Demon gets hold, for that reason Uriel would feel sympathy..
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I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess. When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct. It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either. Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.
Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry: the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human. Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding. They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.
Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.
That said, I agree with Mira that there is almost surely an Outsider connection of some kind with the parasites. It's interesting that Thomas and Lara both use 'empty night' as a swear phrase.
How intelligent the White Court demons might be is difficult to determine. I suspect there is more intelligence than just that of an animal while in hunting mode. The clue that tells me this is in the soulgaze that Harry shared with Thomas.
The Hunger hissed more words at Thomas. "What is it saying?" I asked.
"It's telling him to give up. That there's no point in fighting anymore. That it will never leave him in peace."
Perhaps the demon wasn't using actual words. That could be Harry's projection of what was happening. Even if the demon was only communicating with unspoken ideas and images, that shows a degree of intelligence a bit above being a shark or polar bear on the hunt.
They don't have free will once the Hunger Demon gets hold, for that reason Uriel would feel sympathy..
I don't think this is true, otherwise how did Lara stop herself twice; once while in the Raith Deeps and a second time after Harry blasted both of them out of the Deeps, when she would have been hungry after using so much energy. Lara has learned to master her hunger when she needs to do so or sees a valid reason to do so. The valid reason was keeping her promise to Harry and honoring his guest rights. Of course, if Lara had been starving she probably would not have been able to hold back.
This means Lara; and by extension, all White Court vampires have free will, unless they are pushed to extremis. Though their demon exerts constant pressure on them, it can be controlled, at least to a degree. This is why Uriel feels sympathy for the members of the White Court. Their free will to make a better choice isn't eliminated but is severely constrained and they are always being pushed to just give in and go the other way.
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How intelligent the White Court demons might be is difficult to determine. I suspect there is more intelligence than just that of an animal while in hunting mode. The clue that tells me this is in the soulgaze that Harry shared with Thomas.
A lot about the Hunger Demon and it's hold on it's host was revealed in that soul gaze. The other side of the coin is the picture of a human host, Thomas, that we see fighting the Demon's will. The Thomas of the soul gaze isn't the handsome strong man that Harry knows, but this; Page 169 of Blood Rites
I drew closer. My steps echoed among the pillars. I drew closer to the young man and peered at him. It was Thomas. Not Thomas as I had seen him with my own eyes, but Thomas none the less. This version of him was not deadly beautiful. His face seemed a little more plain. He looked like he might have been a little nearsighted. His expression strained with pain, and his shoulders and back were thick with tension.
Without the Hunger Demon Thomas is a very ordinary man, with very human flaws including perhaps some nearsightedness. On the other side of that mirror is the Hunger Demon, described as roughly the size of Thomas, humanoid, it's hide shinning with a silver luminous silver glow. Then in the next line is the important bit, " It crouched , hunched and grotesque, though at the same time there was an eerie beauty about the thing.
Notice Thomas and the Demon are fighting through a mirror, not a window.. One reflects the other and what we see in that reflection is the opposite of reality. Which is the real Thomas? The rather plain ordinary man with human frailties, or the beautiful monster? In my opinion this is the source of the addiction, at some point during that first fatal feeding, the frail vanilla human who is predisposed to addiction makes a Faustian bargain with the Hunger Demon, beauty, strength, and long life in exchange for the emotions that feed the Demon. Eventually the human becomes the Demon and accepts it's fate, Lara has for example. Thomas is Margaret's son, he hasn't completely given up the fight, but he is tired.
This is where Margaret says the important bit about Justine. That she is dead, that "It" i.e. the Hunger Demon knows that, and knows her love is the source of Thomas' resistance to it. Justine is dead, and eventually Thomas will become exhausted and the Demon will win. The process gets accelerated later in Turn Coat by the Skin Walker and by the time we hit Peace Talks it is complete. Now tin hat time, the Hunger Demon/ Nemesis created an illusion of Justine, then used Thomas for it's purposes. Once it was accomplished, the Hunger Demon/Nemesis let Thomas know Justine was dead, I believe that is what injured Thomas was mumbling to Harry. The realization that Justine is really dead is what is killing Thomas.. The Hunger Demon/Nemesis has won and has moved on, without the presence of either the love from Justine or the Hunger Demon, Thomas is dying.
Perhaps the demon wasn't using actual words. That could be Harry's projection of what was happening. Even if the demon was only communicating with unspoken ideas and images, that shows a degree of intelligence a bit above being a shark or polar bear on the hunt.
A shark or polar bear are a lot smarter than you think, they carefully select their prey for example.
I don't think this is true, otherwise how did Lara stop herself twice; once while in the Raith Deeps and a second time after Harry blasted both of them out of the Deeps, when she would have been hungry after using so much energy. Lara has learned to master her hunger when she needs to do so or sees a valid reason to do so. The valid reason was keeping her promise to Harry and honoring his guest rights. Of course, if Lara had been starving she probably would not have been able to hold back.
Then again was it Lara's free will? Or simple survival instinct? Also like any intelligent predator the Hunger Demon selects and culls it's victims. I don't think Lara's free will has anything to do with that, as you point out if the Hunger Demon is starving, Lara wouldn't be able to hold back.. I think Thomas has tried or did try that was the struggle that Margaret was talking about, but his free will is weakening.
This means Lara; and by extension, all White Court vampires have free will, unless they are pushed to extremis. Though their demon exerts constant pressure on them, it can be controlled, at least to a degree. This is why Uriel feels sympathy for the members of the White Court. Their free will to make a better choice isn't eliminated but is severely constrained and they are always being pushed to just give in and go the other way.
Or for them, free will is an illusion, they may appear to have free will, but in the end when hungry enough, the Demon will have it's way, the host will feed, feed until death of the victim if need be.. No free will there, it appears that the host doesn't even have the option of suicide to rid themselves of it.. Unless that is what Thomas is really doing now, committing suicide to finally rid himself of it. That's why what Harry saw in that soul gaze was two sides of a mirror, which image of Thomas is real and which one is illusion.
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Now that I think about it, we have proof that White Court vampires have at least some free will. For one thing, Mab considers them 'mortal' enough to be candidates for Winter Knight. That's pretty telling, because the whole point of the knight mantle is for the Fae Court to have a free-willed operator at their employ.
But even more so, we've seen with Thomas that if a White Court vampire uses magic, it generates techbane. The techbane effect is specifically rooted in mortal free will.
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Now that I think about it, we have proof that White Court vampires have at least some free will. For one thing, Mab considers them 'mortal' enough to be candidates for Winter Knight. That's pretty telling, because the whole point of the knight mantle is for the Fae Court to have a free-willed operator at their employ.
But even more so, we've seen with Thomas that if a White Court vampire uses magic, it generates techbane. The techbane effect is specifically rooted in mortal free will.
Mab thought Thomas might be mortal enough to be her Winter Knight because he was in love with Justine. Thomas was also Margaret's son, so half mortal. However if push came to shove, would Mab have tried to make Thomas her Knight? Or was she speculating that Thomas could be mortal enough for the job to trap Harry into it? Remember she was telling Harry this because she knew that Harry would want to prevent it from happening, because she really wanted Harry for the job. Yes, the Fae cannot lie, but it says nothing the Fae not being able to speculate. In other words, Thomas might be mortal enough, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the White Court is.
Mavra of the Black Court is able to wield magic, she isn't a mortal.. She is one of the undead, so does that make her mortal enough to have free will?
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You have a free will problem.
Because if all of the monsters and half breeds don't have free will, then who or what is directing them? How do they come up with all these elaborate long-term plans? Sometimes people just make what we consider the evil choice just because that's their preference. Or are you saying that even mundane serial killers and sex offenders have lost their free will?
The monsters do have choices, but most are ruled by their base impulses. They are willful addicts, that embrace their vices for the short bursts of pleasure they get. Their leaders keep better control and only give in to the addiction in extremis. Indeed, it's considered a sign of weakness or senility among them if they begin to lose control.
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You have a free will problem.
Because if all of the monsters and half breeds don't have free will, then who or what is directing them? How do they come up with all these elaborate long-term plans? Sometimes people just make what we consider the evil choice just because that's their preference. Or are you saying that even mundane serial killers and sex offenders have lost their free will?
No, I am not, there is a difference between an ordinary garden variety vanilla murderer and a White Court Vampire murderer. The first mostly acts upon his or her own impulses and emotions with the free will to chose. Where as a White Court Vampire murderer is play host to a demon. The demon calls the shots, the Hunger demon will always satisfy it's needs first. It can be satisfied with nibbling if it's hunger is satisfied by that, but if the demon needs more, it will take more. The demon needs to keep the host body strong, sexually attractive, and healthy so it can survive.. Ergo, it will compel the Host to do what is required whether the Host wants to do it or not.. Thus the Host has little or no free will, it has the illusion of it.
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Mab thought Thomas might be mortal enough to be her Winter Knight because he was in love with Justine. Thomas was also Margaret's son, so half mortal.
Most White Court vampires are the offspring of a WCV and a mortal. Half mortal is the norm for them.
However if push came to shove, would Mab have tried to make Thomas her Knight?
She said she would. Harry asked her what she would do if he had been killed, since he knew she wanted him as her knight. She said point blank in response that she would offer it to Thomas. Not that she would consider it or maybe, but that she would offer it to Thomas. Straight declarative statement, and Mab always speaks the truth.
Mavra of the Black Court is able to wield magic, she isn't a mortal.. She is one of the undead, so does that make her mortal enough to have free will?
She can use magic. You don't have to have free will to use magic, but having free will is what causes magical techbane. That's why Fae can use magic and also use smartphones and other electronics, no techbane. But the combination of magic and free will screws up electronics and other technology.
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Most White Court vampires are the offspring of a WCV and a mortal. Half mortal is the norm for them.
Does it really matter though once the Hunger demon has taken over?
She said she would. Harry asked her what she would do if he had been killed, since he knew she wanted him as her knight. She said point blank in response that she would offer it to Thomas. Not that she would consider it or maybe, but that she would offer it to Thomas. Straight declarative statement, and Mab always speaks the truth.
Does she? Page 402 Small Favor
"He isn't mortal," I said quietly. "I thought Knights had to be mortals,""He is in love," Grimalkin mrowled for Mab. "That makes him mortal enough for me." She tilted her head. Though I suppose I might make him an offer, while you yet live. He would give much to hold his love again, would he not?"
Sounds to me like Mab is messing with Harry. Knights have to be mortal, but Mab doesn't say Thomas is mortal, she says,""he is in love that makes him mortal enough for me." She didn't say that made Thomas a mortal, but that it was enough.. Enough for what? A bargain, she is hinting that she could make him a mortal if he'd agree to be her Knight. But would she actually go through all that trouble? Or would Thomas want to become that very ordinary mortal with the weak eyes that Harry saw in the soul gaze? Seriously, would that Thomas be able to control the Winter Knight mantle? No, Mab was talking in Fae double speak.. Not lying, but not telling the truth either.
She can use magic. You don't have to have free will to use magic, but having free will is what causes magical techbane. That's why Fae can use magic and also use smartphones and other electronics, no techbane. But the combination of magic and free will screws up electronics and other technology
Does Molly still have her free will?
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Does she? Page 402 Small Favor
Sounds to me like Mab is messing with Harry. Knights have to be mortal, but Mab doesn't say Thomas is mortal, she says,""he is in love that makes him mortal enough for me." She didn't say that made Thomas a mortal, but that it was enough.. Enough for what? A bargain, she is hinting that she could make him a mortal if he'd agree to be her Knight. But would she actually go through all that trouble?
She said he was mortal enough for her. Mab cannot utter a knowing falsehood. She didn't say he 'would be mortal', she said, 'is mortal'. That means he is already, as is, mortal enough to qualify to be Winter Knight.
Or would Thomas want to become that very ordinary mortal with the weak eyes that Harry saw in the soul gaze?
Mab can't make Thomas pure human. According to JB, yes, she could tear the parasite right out of him, but that wouldn't leave anything recognizable behind. She can't surgically, neatly remove the parasite and just leave the man.
Does Molly still have her free will?
That is a damned good question. I've wondered it myself. Is Molly Sidhe now? How much free will does her mantle leave her? We already know she can use cell phones now, but we lack data to determine much else.
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She said he was mortal enough for her. Mab cannot utter a knowing falsehood. She didn't say he 'would be mortal', she said, 'is mortal'. That means he is already, as is, mortal enough to qualify to be Winter Knight.
Does it? Remember why you should never bargain with the Fae! They never can be trusted! And what is the foundation of trust? Truth! In my opinion the point missed repeatedly by mortals is they fall for the Fae cannot lie line. The Fae cannot lie, but that is by their own standard of what a lie is, not what a mortal's concept of a lie, is.. There are many shades to the truth, and the Fae are expert and using all of them. Especially with Mab who can twist things to the point where no, she isn't knowingly lying, but nor is she telling the whole truth!
Mab can't make Thomas pure human. According to JB, yes, she could tear the parasite right out of him, but that wouldn't leave anything recognizable behind. She can't surgically, neatly remove the parasite and just leave the man.
Nor if the image Harry saw of Thomas in the soul gaze without the Hunger Demon real, would she want that frail human as her Knight. I think not. However unless there is a way to shut off the Hunger Demon, which Margaret may have learned that secret from Lea or Mab, the Demon would clash with the Winter Knight mantle.. In fact the Demon and the Mantle working together would make quite a monster in my opinion. So thank you for making my point, Mab might not have been lying to Harry about that, but at the same time she has no intention of carrying out her threat of making Thomas her Knight.
That is a damned good question. I've wondered it myself. Is Molly Sidhe now? How much free will does her mantle leave her? We already know she can use cell phones now, but we lack data to determine much else.
Another question that follows whether or not the technobane can be gotten around, if the wizard knows how. Listen's to Wind, keeps current medically, he has attended medical school, it's a given that that means he would be around state of the art medical electronic equipment, that he cannot have blow up any time he enters a hospital or laboratory. Actually there are few things these days in our everyday life that doesn't contain computer chips of some kind. Given what the average cell phone has become these days, Harry walking down the street should make more pants and purses blow up than when the Israelis did it to the terrorists. Some things sound cool, but in reality don't make a whole lot of sense.. Like I could never get beyond Harry taking cold showers during the height of winter in Chicago because he couldn't have a water heater!
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RCV's are entirely inhuman.
They "wear a flesh mask" but it's an ectoplasmic summoning; the real creature is a rubbery batlike thing. They only act with self-control for their own advantage (incliding self-preservation, e.g. in the face of a superior foe).
WCV's are humans; they are humans harboring "hunger demons," but they are still human, and we know this with certainty: wizards can soulgaze WCV's (but cannot soulgaze RCV's).
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RCV's are entirely inhuman.
They "wear a flesh mask" but it's an ectoplasmic summoning; the real creature is a rubbery batlike thing. They only act with self-control for their own advantage (incliding self-preservation, e.g. in the face of a superior foe).
WCV's are humans; they are humans harboring "hunger demons," but they are still human, and we know this with certainty: wizards can soulgaze WCV's (but cannot soulgaze RCV's).
So what happened to Susan's soul once she completely changed?
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So what happened to Susan's soul once she completely changed?
I presume she went on to What Comes Next (as one does).
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I presume she went on to What Comes Next (as one does).
But did she? Technically Susan didn't die, the thing she turned into was killed. Can Mab be soul gazed? Yes, she is 99.99% Fae not, but what about that .01% that is still human? What about the Mothers? Supposedly they started out human eons ago, went the Lady,Queen,Mother route, did they simply lose their soul in the end? Does that mean they are damned? Or at least what was human to start with..
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So what happened to Susan's soul once she completely changed?
She left. Just as she would if someone had shot her with a gun or something. Susan died in that moment.
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But did she? Technically Susan didn't die, the thing she turned into was killed.
No, Susan did die in the transformation. The thing that was left afterward had access to her memories, and some of her personality was copied, but it wasn't her. A few moments later, the newborn monster was itself slain.
If that was still Susan in any form that Harry killed, then the supercurse would have propagated along Susan's family lines. Maggie would have been killed, along with whatever other blood kin Susan had, and the Red King and his ilk would have been fine.
When a human is converted into a Red or Black Vampire, that human is dead. Not just metaphorically but literally, just as dead as if they had been beheaded or blown up. What takes their place is a pure monster with their memories and a copy of parts of their personality.
That's why a newborn Black Vampire will cheerfully murder former loved ones, in spite of having the memories. The human is gone.
Can Mab be soul gazed? Yes, she is 99.99% Fae not, but what about that .01% that is still human? What about the Mothers? Supposedly they started out human eons ago, went the Lady,Queen,Mother route, did they simply lose their soul in the end? Does that mean they are damned? Or at least what was human to start with..
We don't have enough information to say. JB has been kind of reticent on this point.
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Does it? Remember why you should never bargain with the Fae! They never can be trusted! And what is the foundation of trust? Truth! In my opinion the point missed repeatedly by mortals is they fall for the Fae cannot lie line. The Fae cannot lie, but that is by their own standard of what a lie is, not what a mortal's concept of a lie, is.. There are many shades to the truth, and the Fae are expert and using all of them. Especially with Mab who can twist things to the point where no, she isn't knowingly lying, but nor is she telling the whole truth!
Nor if the image Harry saw of Thomas in the soul gaze without the Hunger Demon real, would she want that frail human as her Knight. I think not. However unless there is a way to shut off the Hunger Demon, which Margaret may have learned that secret from Lea or Mab, the Demon would clash with the Winter Knight mantle.. In fact the Demon and the Mantle working together would make quite a monster in my opinion. So thank you for making my point, Mab might not have been lying to Harry about that, but at the same time she has no intention of carrying out her threat of making Thomas her Knight.
From Small Favor:
"Not having it could have gotten me killed, too," I said. "And then you'd have wasted all that time you've put in trying to recruit me to be the next Winter Knight."
"Nonsense," Mab said. "If you died, I would simply recruit your brother. He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers."
That's a direct statement on Mab's part. Not an implication, or a suggestion, or a hint, it's a direct declarative statement. Either she means it...or she uttered a falsehood, which as far as know she simply can't.
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Small Favor
"Not having it could have gotten me killed, too," I said. "And then you'd have wasted all that time you've put in trying to recruit me to be the next Winter Knight."
"Nonsense," Mab said. "If you died, I would simply recruit your brother. He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers."
LordDresden2
That's a direct statement on Mab's part. Not an implication, or a suggestion, or a hint, it's a direct declarative statement. Either she means it...or she uttered a falsehood, which as far as know she simply can't.
This is also from Small Favor Page 402
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"He isn't mortal," I said quietly. "I thought Knights had to be mortals,""He is in love," Grimalkin mrowled for Mab. "That makes him mortal enough for me." She tilted her head. Though I suppose I might make him an offer, while you yet live. He would give much to hold his love again, would he not?"
You are correct that was a declarative statement by Mab. However as you can see when Harry says Knights have to be mortal. Mab hedges her bets, because Thomas is in love, that makes him mortal enough for her. Then Mab hints that a bargain that could be made with Thomas so he could hold Justine. This fogs up what the truth is just a bit, while Mab isn't exactly lying to Harry, she isn't exactly telling the truth either.. Though by her standards she is telling the truth, yes, she could recruit Thomas to be her Knight, that isn't the same as make Thomas her Knight.. However just the suggestion that she would recruit Thomas, puts pressure on Harry to become her Knight. Which is what Mab is really after.
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You are correct that was a declarative statement by Mab. However as you can see when Harry says Knights have to be mortal. Mab hedges her bets, because Thomas is in love, that makes him mortal enough for her. Then Mab hints that a bargain that could be made with Thomas so he could hold Justine. This fogs up what the truth is just a bit, while Mab isn't exactly lying to Harry, she isn't exactly telling the truth either.. Though by her standards she is telling the truth, yes, she could recruit Thomas to be her Knight, that isn't the same as make Thomas her Knight.. However just the suggestion that she would recruit Thomas, puts pressure on Harry to become her Knight. Which is what Mab is really after.
That first declarative by Mab, however, would seem absolute: even if she later gave ambivalent wiggle-room replies, Mab has stated affirmatively that she would recruit Thomas.
Mab can be wrong -- mistaken -- but she cannot lie.
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That first declarative by Mab, however, would seem absolute: even if she later gave ambivalent wiggle-room replies, Mab has stated affirmatively that she would recruit Thomas.
Mab can be wrong -- mistaken -- but she cannot lie.
Recruit isn't the same as making Thomas her Knight. No, she isn't lying about trying to recruit him, but she can recruit all she wants knowing full well it cannot happen.. Is she lying? No. However she also knows the kind of effect at statement would have on Harry.. That's why one shouldn't bargain with the Fae, Mab in particular. She is yanking Harry's chain by using the word recruit, she can say that and not lie.. Her aim is to get Harry as her Knight, not Thomas. In fact I doubt Mab is even interested in Thomas as her Knight, even if it were possible. but she wants Harry to think she is interested..
There is also several quotes in Cold Days over three pages which explains more or less as to why she may threaten to recruit Thomas, Mab isn't serious about it, even if it were possible, it's Harry that she wants. This is where Mother Summer opens Harry's eyes to what Mab's real job is, and what is on the line, makes it easier to understand why Thomas just isn't suitable for the job.
page 331 Cold Days;
I jerked my eyes away with a short grunt of effort, closed them, and left them closed. "Holy...Outsiders? Mab's fighting Outsiders?"
Mother Summer is now hitting home on what Mab really does to Harry..page 332
"Did you think Mab spent all her days sitting in a chair and dealing with her backstabbing courtiers? No, Sir Knight. Power has purpose.
Finally on the next page Harry gets it.. 333 Cold Days;
"You're telling me that this is why Mab has her power? To...to protect the boarders?" "To protect all of you from Outsiders, mortal."
This is why, though maybe she wasn't telling a lie about recruiting Thomas, she was still bluffing. Thomas isn't a starborn, Harry is.. With the BAT coming Mab needs a Knight that can deal with Outsiders, that is Harry, not Thomas..
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Recruit isn't the same as making Thomas her Knight. No, she isn't lying about trying to recruit him, but she can recruit all she wants knowing full well it cannot happen.. Is she lying?
I'm not sure what that even means. Recruit means make him her Knight, or at least that she would definitely offer him Knighthood. She might (and I say might) be able to 'offer' it to someone she knows cannot accept it, but she would have to present her 'offer' supercarefully to get around the 'no falsehood' compulsion, and Thomas (or whoever) could easily force her to tell the truth with even a simple direct question. It's an extreme stretch at best.
I'm pretty sure Mab can't get around the compulsion by 'qualifying' a statement later. That would reduce the compulsion to nothing, it would be trivially easy to get around and nobody would even bother referring to the idea that the Sidhe can't speak a falsehood.
She can carefully phrase direct factual statements to imply a lie, or leave important information out, or otherwise lie with the truth, but the statements themselves must be factual at the time, or at least she has to truly believe they are factual at the time.
There just isn't much wiggle room in Mab's recruitment statement.
There is also several quotes in Cold Days over three pages which explains more or less as to why she may threaten to recruit Thomas, Mab isn't serious about it, even if it were possible, it's Harry that she wants. This is where Mother Summer opens Harry's eyes to what Mab's real job is, and what is on the line, makes it easier to understand why Thomas just isn't suitable for the job.
page 331 Cold Days;
Mother Summer is now hitting home on what Mab really does to Harry..page 332
Finally on the next page Harry gets it.. 333 Cold Days;
This is why, though maybe she wasn't telling a lie about recruiting Thomas, she was still bluffing. Thomas isn't a starborn, Harry is.. With the BAT coming Mab needs a Knight that can deal with Outsiders, that is Harry, not Thomas..
Yes, she wants Harry. I'm sure she sees Thomas second best on several levels. But if Harry is dead (really dead, I mean, gone and not coming back unless God wills it), then Thomas would be her next choice, because then she can't have Harry anyway. Or at least, Thomas would have been her choice at that time, whether that's still true years later is another matter.
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I'm not sure what that even means. Recruit means make him her Knight, or at least that she would definitely offer him Knighthood. She might (and I say might) be able to 'offer' it to someone she knows cannot accept it, but she would have to present her 'offer' supercarefully to get around the 'no falsehood' compulsion, and Thomas (or whoever) could easily force her to tell the truth with even a simple direct question. It's an extreme stretch at best.
You can be recruited to go to a school, for a job, to join the military, but you don't have to take any of those jobs. Mab heavily recruited Harry for her Knight, he has close ties to the Fae, yet he could and did refuse the job. It was only when he was completely out of good options to save his daughter, and being Winter Knight was the least bad of several bad options did he then volunteer for the job. So yeah, she is telling the truth that she could recruit Thomas, but she also knows that doesn't mean that he would take it. I also think it has been established as least as far as Red Court Vamps go that the Fae might be able to put that part asleep [in Susan's case] but not cure the problem. So I doubt that Mab could get rid of the Hunger Demon. Now as we learned in Changes, part of the becoming the Knight thing is sex with Mab, perhaps that would allow Thomas to embrace Justine once more. However the kicker there that still doesn't make any sense, is if it was that simple, why didn't Justine or Thomas do it sooner.. Then is there a danger that Thomas could actually kill Mab during the mating ritual. Could Mab prevent Thomas from feeding on her during the ritual? What would that kind of food do to the Hunger Demon? Would Mab really want to risk that? One last note on offers and bargains, don't underestimate Mab when it comes to being super careful or super clever. Ask Nic in Skin Game, Mab didn't lie to him, and you could say she kept her word to him, but did it in such a way that he got screwed and she got what she wanted. That's the whole point of never make bargains with the Fae! You think because they cannot tell a lie, and they will make that a strong selling point in any deal negotiation with them, you will come out on top... You never do because there is always a catch, a glitch, something that you over looked so you lose, and the loss is on you because they never lie.
She can carefully phrase direct factual statements to imply a lie, or leave important information out, or otherwise lie with the truth, but the statements themselves must be factual at the time, or at least she has to truly believe they are factual at the time.
And so it was, she said she could recruit, which was enough to freak Harry.. Why? Because Harry himself is so freaked out about becoming Knight after seeing what the mantel did to Slate.. Mab knows this, so she tells the truth, "I can recruit your brother!" Which Mab can, no lie, but Mab also knows that the mere suggestion of this to Harry sends all kinds of visions of horror dancing though his head if Thomas became her Knight. Mab also knows that Harry would do almost anything to prevent Thomas becoming her Knight, including becoming it himself, which what she wants.
There just isn't much wiggle room in Mab's recruitment statement.
What she is saying and what she is thinking are two different things.
Yes, she wants Harry. I'm sure she sees Thomas second best on several levels. But if Harry is dead (really dead, I mean, gone and not coming back unless God wills it), then Thomas would be her next choice, because then she can't have Harry anyway. Or at least, Thomas would have been her choice at that time, whether that's still true years later is another matter.
Now you are getting into hypotheticals, so Mab can say all of the above and be telling the truth in a "what if" world.. However whether it would actually come about is another matter for a number of reasons.. So Mab in that case can tell the truth without being committed to doing anything, which she would and does gleefully tell those who thought they had a deal with her, but didn't get what they wanted.
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You can be recruited to go to a school, for a job, to join the military, but you don't have to take any of those jobs ...
There is an incorrect casual-usage as you say; "recruit" as "try to persuade to join."
But the correct definition is actually getting someone to join; you have not "recruited" them if they don't.
Note the passage you quoted above:
Small Favor
"Not having it could have gotten me killed, too," I said. "And then you'd have wasted all that time you've put in trying to recruit me to be the next Winter Knight."
"Nonsense," Mab said. "If you died, I would simply recruit your brother. He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers."
Harry: "... trying to recruit me..."
Mab: "I would simply recruit your brother."
It's clear Jim is writing with the correct usage, here (try vs would -- there is no try, Padawan!).
Mab would recruit Thomas (I mean, she'd try... successfully! Let's face it: Mab's 100% correct that Thomas would want revenge, and Thomas doesn't have Harry's pig-headedness, and Thomas has long been the Whamp poster-boy of go-along-to-get-along... Thomas wouldn't resist all that hard!)
But you're entirely correct, I think, in saying that none of this was what Mab wanted. Whampire-Thomas wouldn't make nearly the caliber of Winter Knight that Starborn/Wizard Harry can be. If things didn't work out, Thomas would have been Mab's "fallback plan," but (as she surmised) the collection of carrots + sticks that Mab had finally arrayed to get Harry as Knight was enough to do the job.
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Mab would recruit Thomas (I mean, she'd try... successfully! Let's face it: Mab's 100% correct that Thomas would want revenge, and Thomas doesn't have Harry's pig-headedness, and Thomas has long been the Whamp poster-boy of go-along-to-get-along... Thomas wouldn't resist all that hard!)
Without know what effect the mantle would have on the Hunger Demon? Really? Would Mab do that? Consider how hard it was for Harry to resist the urge to rape after he acquired the mantle.. Now think about a demon who feeds off of sexual pleasure on steroids because of the mantle.. No, Mab was bluffing which isn't the same as lying..
In negotiations, bluffs are deceptions that are acceptable to both parties, while lies are deceptions that are unacceptable to both parties. Bluffing is considered a moral-free negotiating tactic, while lying can be reduced by means of a code of conduct
This is why you don't negotiate with the Fae! While it is true that they cannot lie, they can and will bluff! There are good reasons why Mab wouldn't want Thomas as he Knight and very solid reasons why she wants Harry. Will she lie to get her way? No, the Fae don't lie, but will she bluff? Hell yeah.
But you're entirely correct, I think, in saying that none of this was what Mab wanted. Whampire-Thomas wouldn't make nearly the caliber of Winter Knight that Starborn/Wizard Harry can be. If things didn't work out, Thomas would have been Mab's "fallback plan," but (as she surmised) the collection of carrots + sticks that Mab had finally arrayed to get Harry as Knight was enough to do the job.
I doubt that Thomas was ever Mab's fall back plan, because of the Hunger Demon, that's the wild card in this. It would simply be too great a risk.
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I came very late to this party, but I have a few comments I want to make.
As it was said, most white court are children of a human. I am not sure if it is possible for two white vampires to have a child, and I do not know if that child would be more or less powerful than a regular white court vampire. Also, I think Inari did kill her demon.
Justine: I do not think she was nemfected since the beginning. It would be very sad if Thomas has conceived a child with a shell body encasing Nemesis. I think Justine is still there, in her body.
Thomas being mortal enough because he was in love is a very weird statement and I am still not sure what that means. But I suspect the problem is that Harry thought the Knight had to be mortal, but in true it has to be "mortal enough". I think being in love is not the reason he is "mortal enough" but the proof that he is one. Which would imply that fae and probably red and black vampires and other things are not able to love.
Mab inability to lie is always complicated to me because I think that when she pretended to be someone else (in SK? I do not remember, when she pretended to be neighbour or something) she said a few things that were not literally true. I cannot check it now. But I do think when she said she would have offered the position to Thomas, she meant that. Thomas is a sub par choice, but he is still Margaret son and I have the feeling that is what Mab values.
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Without know what effect the mantle would have on the Hunger Demon? Really? Would Mab do that? Consider how hard it was for Harry to resist the urge to rape after he acquired the mantle.. Now think about a demon who feeds off of sexual pleasure on steroids because of the mantle.. No, Mab was bluffing which isn't the same as lying..
I think you underestimate Mab; she knows exactly what a Whampire Winterknight will be like (I suspect she has had them before).
It would be the simplest thing in the world to prevent rape: surfeit the Knight with entirely-willing wintersidhe. Give him an entourage of cold-day hotties. Slate was a sociopath, but the Hunger Demon is just hungry: feed it and it's pretty quiescent (it's the human side of things that turn it so very awful... but of course Whampire upbringing tends a bit toward the awful, so that's over-represented).
But Thomas? Nah, he'd be satisfied to have a faerie courtier every other day or so.
(n.b. we saw that Thomas could have ongoing relations with svartalves, and Connie could be surfeited just with Irwin)
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Mab inability to lie is always complicated to me because I think that when she pretended to be someone else (in SK? I do not remember, when she pretended to be neighbour or something) she said a few things that were not literally true. I cannot check it now. But I do think when she said she would have offered the position to Thomas, she meant that. Thomas is a sub par choice, but he is still Margaret son and I have the feeling that is what Mab values.
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Spot on Dina! Two statements apply to the Fae. 1] They cannot lie, everyone believes that and the Fae themselves harp on that point. 2] Never bargain with the Fae, you always almost end up with the short end of the stick so to speak.
Statement one is totally incompatible with statement two. Why? Because if you are bargaining with someone who cannot lie, you trust that everything they are telling you is true. However if you put your trust in the Fae cannot lie when you bargain with them.. You are in trouble, because somewhere along the line whatever it was you were believing a Fae was telling you truthfully, gets twisted.
The Fae may not lie, but they do bluff, not the same. If you don't understand that, you are lost in any negotiation with them. So while the Fae cannot lie, you should never trust them or what they say completely..
It would be the simplest thing in the world to prevent rape: surfeit the Knight with entirely-willing wintersidhe. Give him an entourage of cold-day hotties. Slate was a sociopath, but the Hunger Demon is just hungry: feed it and it's pretty quiescent (it's the human side of things that turn it so very awful... but of course Whampire upbringing tends a bit toward the awful, so that's over-represented).
I think you underestimate the Hunger Demon.
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I think you underestimate the Hunger Demon.
AFAIK, no "Hunger Demon" has ever been shown to take more than one victim in a single feeding.
Blampires & Rampires both seem to actually relish bloodshed, readily killing multiples at once. I think the "blood reserve" in the Rampire's abdomen might actually be able to store up to 2-3 people's blood; but no more (otoh, they seem to use it up magically, not just metabolically; so if exerting themselves on a sustained basis might go through many more per day... but then, so too do Whampires' exertions cause increased demand).
I'm unclear about the precise mechanisms of Blampires' psychic / magic / physical "need" to kill... do they actually eat their prey? Do they need the blood they take (to survive? to thrive? to avoid quiescent vamp-coma)? Do they need to kill, or could they take a pint a day from a large donor-group with no major impact (but just don't want to)? Is it just the twisted-undead version of a reproductive urge? Or what??!?
But my point is: Whamps don't seem to do the large-scale massacres that Ramps & Blamps do; they mostly only need to dispose of one corpse at a time, and usually only feed-to-death in extremis (out of control)... though there are exceptions (Madeline comes to mind, I think she killed readily; and I think the Skavis/Malvora "usual" feeding was to death).
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AFAIK, no "Hunger Demon" has ever been shown to take more than one victim in a single feeding.
So? ??? One at a time, they add up... And with the power and super quickness of a vampire along uberurges of the Hunger Demon, and damn... There could be bodies all over the place.. :o
Blampires & Rampires both seem to actually relish bloodshed, readily killing multiples at once. I think the "blood reserve" in the Rampire's abdomen might actually be able to store up to 2-3 people's blood; but no more (otoh, they seem to use it up magically, not just metabolically; so if exerting themselves on a sustained basis might go through many more per day... but then, so too do Whampires' exertions cause increased demand).
Hunger Demon is a little different..
I'm unclear about the precise mechanisms of Blampires' psychic / magic / physical "need" to kill... do they actually eat their prey? Do they need the blood they take (to survive? to thrive? to avoid quiescent vamp-coma)? Do they need to kill, or could they take a pint a day from a large donor-group with no major impact (but just don't want to)? Is it just the twisted-undead version of a reproductive urge? Or what??!?
Again that doesn't seem to be how the Hunger Demon works..
But my point is: Whamps don't seem to do the large-scale massacres that Ramps & Blamps do; they mostly only need to dispose of one corpse at a time, and usually only feed-to-death in extremis (out of control)... though there are exceptions (Madeline comes to mind, I think she killed readily; and I think the Skavis/Malvora "usual" feeding was to death).
Doesn't have to be mass killing to do damage to the Winter Court or Mab, killing one is enough, if it is the wrong one that is killed.
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Mira, I really not think that Thomas is powerful enough to kill Mab. Also, remember the sex scene of Harry accepting the job is something...mystical, i don't know. Harry did not have physical sex with Mab, I think. His body was still laying with a broken back. So I imagine if Thomas would be accepted as Winter Knight, his seduction powers and hunger would be irrelevant, because his demon would not be really touching Mab's body.
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Mira, I really not think that Thomas is powerful enough to kill Mab. Also, remember the sex scene of Harry accepting the job is something...mystical, i don't know. Harry did not have physical sex with Mab, I think. His body was still laying with a broken back. So I imagine if Thomas would be accepted as Winter Knight, his seduction powers and hunger would be irrelevant, because his demon would not be really touching Mab's body.
I have to go back and reread, but I think Harry did have physical sex with Mab, the way I remember it his back was fixed as soon as he agreed to become her Knight. However you could be right that wasn't physical, I just don't remember it that way.
The Hunger Demon never touches any body, it feeds through the host.
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The Hunger Demon never touches any body, it feeds through the host.
True, but still, Thomas would not be really touching Mab. At least, that is what I think. I have been arguing for years that Mab could not have Harry's baby because they do not do real physical sex.