ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Dina on August 08, 2024, 09:32:11 PM
-
We know there is chance of Murphy coming back, but I was thinking. What if Jim finds a way to have Susan's back instead? Of course, the obvious way would be to bring Mirror Susan to Harry's prime universe, but I was thinking it would be better to find a way to resurrect the woman who gave her life for her child (and Harry). Of course, resurrection would normally be a no-no, but with so many supernatural entities around, who can say it is impossible?
Let me be clear, I am not such a fan of Susan, but it would be so good for Maggie Jr. and Harry to have her back. And the dynamics would be very interesting.
-
We know there is chance of Murphy coming back,
But whether she actually will or not, I don't know.
I predicted on the forums, years ago, back when JB was still insisting that he had no plans to either write Murphy out, kill her off, or power her up, that he would at some point in the not too distant future be forced to write Murphy out, kill her off, or power her up.
That was no particular prescience on my part, just a recognition that as the story advanced and changed and the stakes kept rising, Karrin wasn't keeping up. Back in the early books, when Harry was basically a small-time Chanderlesque PI who happened to possess magic, she fit in perfectly. In those stories all the usual character roles of a Chandler-style PI story were present.
Harry the hard-boiled PI (though he wasn't hard-boiled yet back then, one interesting thing about the Dresden Files is that we're getting to see the hard boiling process play out, rather than meet the protagonist after he's already case hardened). He had the usual money problems, bad luck with relationships, etc.
Marcone was the local mob boss. Karrin was the cop he interacted with most often, usually as an ally but sometimes as an opponent. The 'scope' of the stories was mostly Chicago, local. It was a variation on the classic Chandler formula.
But as time passed, Harry grew into a global level major player, with major influence. The scope of the story reached world-wide levels many books ago. The players now are national governments, militaries, ancient conspiracies, archangels and gods.
Marcone grew with the story, becoming a freeholding lord, a Denarian, etc. Karrin just didn't. By the time of Skin Game, when Harry recruits her as his gun moll for the upcoming operation, the problem had become acute. Harry simply needed higher power help than Karrin could provide, I suspect that's part of the meta reason why JB brought Michael back temporarily.
So I wasn't a bit surprised by her death. I knew a long time ago that JB was going to have to change his plans, he either had to sideline Karrin, power her up, or kill her off. He might have done both the latter in one stroke, but I knew he wasn't going to be able to keep her as was, because the DF is no longer a Chandler-esque PI story.
What I'm getting at with all this is that while I can certainly imagine ways to bring Karrin back into the story, ways that could fit with the setting...I'm not 100% sure JB is going to do it. If she comes back as a Valkyrie, she's not really quite Harry's Karrin anymore. If she comes back as human Karrin, it's both another 'death is cheap' moment (and too much of that wrecks any story) and recreates the previous problems.
but I was thinking. What if Jim finds a way to have Susan's back instead? Of course, the obvious way would be to bring Mirror Susan to Harry's prime universe, but I was thinking it would be better to find a way to resurrect the woman who gave her life for her child (and Harry). Of course, resurrection would normally be a no-no, but with so many supernatural entities around, who can say it is impossible?
Let me be clear, I am not such a fan of Susan, but it would be so good for Maggie Jr. and Harry to have her back. And the dynamics would be very interesting.
But I so hope not.
I think I said once before that when I heard that there was going to be a 'parallel time' story, when I heard Bob tell Harry that Spiderman is real somewhere, I actually physically winced. I've seen parallel time stories go sour so many times, and they create so many continuity and 'stakes' headaches, that I literally dread them.
I have seen good ones, but they're very much the exception. The old original Star Trek episode Mirror Mirror, was a good one. The Trek novel Dark Mirror, written by Diane Duane, was done as a nextgen sequel to that episode, and it was good, too. But the stuff the actual DS9 and other Trek shows did with the mirror universe was ghastly.
The trouble with parallel time is that it removes stakes. That is, if Character A dies, well...so what? If you have the necessary magic/tech to reach parallel time lines, and there are an infinite number of such, then somewhere Character A2, A3, A4, etc. are still alive. Your wife/husband died? Well, somewhere Out There in alternity, he/she is still alive, single, and waiting for you. Don't like how the last election turned out? Don't like how the last war turned out? If you can access alternity, somewhere there's a world that's exactly what you wish for.
Sweating over a hard decision? Well, just think, you're going to choose every option, on some time line. Get married/stay single? You're gonna do both. Quit your boring job and take a risk on your dream career, or play it safe? You're gonna do both. And so on.
The multiverse is already messing up the Marvel movies, in a big way.
I've learned to have a lot of faith in JB from experience. Several times he's made writing choices that worried me, and turned out to be good. So I'm not panicked...but the alternate-reality story is the one I'm looking forward to least, the one part of me still sort of dreads.
-
I agree in pretty much all what you said, except that when you said "If she comes back as a Valkyrie, she's not really quite Harry's Karrin anymore" I said "so what?". I see no problem with Karin changing.
I miss the Chandleresque era a lot. I mean, yes, the badass Winter Knight is fun to read, but I miss the old feeling. And it is true Karin was becoming a problem. There was also the age factor.
About Susan, I said having the Mirror Susan would be the easier way but I would like it better if JB finds a way to resurrect Prime Susan. So basically agree with you again. I hope Jim did not bring anyone from the Mirror Universe.
-
I predicted on the forums, years ago, back when JB was still insisting that he had no plans to either write Murphy out, kill her off, or power her up, that he would at some point in the not too distant future be forced to write Murphy out, kill her off, or power her up.
That was no particular prescience on my part, just a recognition that as the story advanced and changed and the stakes kept rising, Karrin wasn't keeping up. Back in the early books, when Harry was basically a small-time Chanderlesque PI who happened to possess magic, she fit in perfectly. In those stories all the usual character roles of a Chandler-style PI story were present.
I agree with all of this, and while yeah, it is a fantasy, as Murphy aged turning her into some kind of Wonder Woman/ Sage became more unrealistic. As I have said before, in my opinion when Jim removed her from the police force, it was the beginning and the end of the character.
I have seen good ones, but they're very much the exception. The old original Star Trek episode Mirror Mirror, was a good one. The Trek novel Dark Mirror, written by Diane Duane, was done as a nextgen sequel to that episode, and it was good, too. But the stuff the actual DS9 and other Trek shows did with the mirror universe was ghastly.
Agreed, and Dark Mirror by Diane Duane is one of my favorite Trek novels, I think the problem is one can go to the same well one too many times. When something isn't broke you don't fix it, and reworking it too many times will break it!
I've learned to have a lot of faith in JB from experience. Several times he's made writing choices that worried me, and turned out to be good. So I'm not panicked...but the alternate-reality story is the one I'm looking forward to least, the one part of me still sort of dreads.
Same here, the only thing I can think of is Chandler disappearing either will be the excuse for or be someone Harry rescues in the other dimension and he will become Harry's new bud.. In my opinion this was telegraphed by Chandler sending signals to Harry when he meets the Wardens on the way back from the Raith Estate in Peace Talks to be on his guard when confronted by Carlos and company. Then in the battle with Drakul, of the Wardens who weren't killed outright or saved for conversion to vamps, he was the only one that was sent "somewhere else," i.e. another dimension. Last but not least, Harry's falling out with Carlos, if I am right, saving Chandler will either put Harry in good stead with Carlos again, or all of the above will now make Chandler suspect, and he will leave the Wardens and join Harry as his right hand man... Or in the spirit of the tin foil hat, Harry will convince Titania to make Chandler her Summer Knight so they can really team up in the coming BAT.
-
... as the story advanced and changed and the stakes kept rising, Karrin wasn't keeping up. Back in the early books, when Harry was basically a small-time Chanderlesque PI who happened to possess magic, she fit in perfectly ...
Yeah.
To be clear: no merely "vanilla" human is capable of "keeping up" with the essentially superhuman world Harry now inhabits & operates within. Hell, Harry has a whole pack of werewolves who are now too weak for Harry's comfort.
... a 'parallel time' story ... Star Trek episode Mirror Mirror, was a good one ...
I've learned to have a lot of faith in JB from experience. Several times he's made writing choices that worried me, and turned out to be good. So I'm not panicked...but the alternate-reality story is the one I'm looking forward to least, the one part of me still sort of dreads.
IIRC, Jim has titled his Mirror,Mirror book in explicit homage to the ST:TOS episode, & seems to be leaning-in further; I think it's a primary influence. The other big influence, I think, is the old Jimmy Stewart vehicle, It's a Wonderful Life; there's the explicitly-identical conceit of "get to see how things would have played out differently, with this one little change..."
-
IIRC, Jim has titled his Mirror,Mirror book in explicit homage to the ST:TOS episode, & seems to be leaning-in further; I think it's a primary influence. The other big influence, I think, is the old Jimmy Stewart vehicle, It's a Wonderful Life; there's the explicitly-identical conceit of "get to see how things would have played out differently, with this one little change..."
Yes, I think that is right, those were his influences.
Or in the spirit of the tin foil hat, Harry will convince Titania to make him her Summer Knight so they can really team up in the coming BAT.
Mira, I loved this idea!
-
IIRC, Jim has titled his Mirror,Mirror book in explicit homage to the ST:TOS episode, & seems to be leaning-in further; I think it's a primary influence. The other big influence, I think, is the old Jimmy Stewart vehicle, It's a Wonderful Life; there's the explicitly-identical conceit of "get to see how things would have played out differently, with this one little change..."
I can see that, wonder if Michael will become "Clarence the Angel," and earn his wings finally buy guiding Harry though how things would have been if he had never been born, or maybe in this case the kind of man that he is? However while that is nice, for a whole novel I believe it has to move the series along and honestly might be done just as well in a short story or novelette. There has to be more to it, I think it will be the rescue of Chandler.
-
I can see that, wonder if Michael will become "Clarence the Angel," and earn his wings finally buy guiding Harry though how things would have been if he had never been born, or maybe in this case the kind of man that he is? However while that is nice, for a whole novel I believe it has to move the series along and honestly might be done just as well in a short story or novelette. There has to be more to it, I think it will be the rescue of Chandler.
No matter how good a man he is, I don't think Michel is in any position to offer multi-dimensional alternate-reality info to Harry. ;)
Unless you're suggesting an afterlife-Michael?
I'm kinda-sorta expecting Mirror,Mirror to have a redeemed Marcone: with Mirror!Harry no longer Fighting the Good Fight, Marcone will increasingly have needed to stand up for those few principles (e.g. "no kids") he has, alienating most of the other Bad Guys and forcing Marcone deeper into the Good Guy camp. Our Harry!Prime will give Marcone one of the Swords (probably Amoracchius), and further complicate Harry's feelings towards Marcone!Prime: he's actually really close to being a viable KotC!
Both Mirror!Murphy & Mirror!Susan will be alive & well. Susan will be in bed with Mirror!Harry (literally & figuratively: both as his lover/gf, but also actively Bad-Girl'ing to Mirror!Harry's Bad-Boy), & Murphy will be profoundly distrustful of Harry, because her Harry, Mirror!Harry, is a very-black BlackHat ...
Both his lost loves "restored" -- but both unavailable (neither to be "loves" nor to process / get closure) -- is gonna mess with Harry's mind even worse than Jim usually does.
-
No matter how good a man he is, I don't think Michel is in any position to offer multi-dimensional alternate-reality info to Harry. ;)
Unless you're suggesting an afterlife-Michael?
No, I was just trying to think off the top of my head who'd be the alternative to Clarence the angel who hadn't earned his wings yet in the original "It's a Wonderful Life." I guess bizarrely it could be Lasciel, I guess since she started out as an angel and is a fallen angel it could be her that would play that role, or maybe Nic, but as you point out the same problems as with Michael.
I'm kinda-sorta expecting Mirror,Mirror to have a redeemed Marcone: with Mirror!Harry no longer Fighting the Good Fight, Marcone will increasingly have needed to stand up for those few principles (e.g. "no kids") he has, alienating most of the other Bad Guys and forcing Marcone deeper into the Good Guy camp. Our Harry!Prime will give Marcone one of the Swords (probably Amoracchius), and further complicate Harry's feelings towards Marcone!Prime: he's actually really close to being a viable KotC!
Both Mirror!Murphy & Mirror!Susan will be alive & well. Susan will be in bed with Mirror!Harry (literally & figuratively: both as his lover/gf, but also actively Bad-Girl'ing to Mirror!Harry's Bad-Boy), & Murphy will be profoundly distrustful of Harry, because her Harry, Mirror!Harry, is a very-black BlackHat ...
Both his lost loves "restored" -- but both unavailable (neither to be "loves" nor to process / get closure) -- is gonna mess with Harry's mind even worse than Jim usually does.
Which isn't the point of the original "Mirror Mirror." I think if you maker Marcone the good guy and Harry the bad, then Harry would have to convince him to kill his bad self. Also our Harry following the example of Kirk in the original story would have to see the same good in the man in both dimensions when he urged Spock to assassinate the bad Kirk. As cool as all that is, the problem still is how does this further the series along? There has to be a point to it.
-
... and while yeah, it is a fantasy, as Murphy aged turning her into some kind of Wonder Woman/ Sage became more unrealistic ...
Except not:
The exceptionality of martial arts is very trope-y in fantasy, and fits well into the Dredenverse.
Aikido, in particular, is overtly & explicitly spiritual in origin & much of its practice (though not every dojo follows that path).
-
... As cool as all that is, the problem still is how does this further the series along? There has to be a point to it.
I think there's actually a lot of potential for that.
It'll really expand Harry's mind, his perspective. He'll be able to understand more of his own world, bring his learning home with him.
It may very-well expose some Bad Guys who've gone mask-off / out of cover, in the darker Mirrorverse; allowing Harry to address their evilness when he gets back to our Prime universe. The "Black Council" may be functionally unmasked, and/or key members. Etc...
If my "good Marcone" proves even vaguely correct, it may further set up a redemption-arc for Marcone!Prime, and/or open Harry's eyes to other possible KotC's.
& so on & so forth...
-
I am not sure how MirrorMirror is going to be. Is our Harry going to Mirror Universe or is Mirror Harry coming to our universe?
I can see our Harry teaming with MirrorMarcone and MirrorMurphy to stop (perhaps killing) MirrorHarry. I wonder if we will see a soulgaze or a death curse by MirrorHarry. It will be interesting. In any case, our Harry will be devastated. He always felt he was a monster, it was his greatest fear and the reason to plan his own killing when he became the WK. So having his fear confirmed, that he is pretty much a bad day away to become bad Harry (as Joker would say) will be terrible. The only hope I see is Mirror Harry redeeming himself, probably saving little Maggie. Because we all know loving a child is the purest, all healing thing.
I am wondering about Mirror Thomas and what will be his reality.
-
I am not sure how MirrorMirror is going to be ...
None of us are... so we WAG our tonguesfingers! ;)
... Is our Harry going to Mirror Universe or is Mirror Harry coming to our universe? ...
Well if we take the ST:TOS episode as the model, it'll be Mirror!Harry coming to Prime!Universe and Prime!Harry going to Mirror!Universe: that was Kirk &co's story.
In fact, it was much of the Bridge crew swapping... so it could be Harry+allies swapping, with a whole TeamEvil(tm) arriving in our Prime!Universe (& vice versa, of course)!
-
I agree with all of this, and while yeah, it is a fantasy, as Murphy aged turning her into some kind of Wonder Woman/ Sage became more unrealistic.
Except not:
The exceptionality of martial arts is very trope-y in fantasy, and fits well into the Dredenverse.
Except yes.
True, training, skill, and will can overcome limits of size and strength and age...to a point. To a very limited point.
The DV is urban fantasy, yes, but JB has made it relatively gritty urban fantasy in many ways. Yeah, there's magic, Fae, various kinds of vampire, etc., but at the same time, combat is deadly, nasty things happen, and there are realistic limits to a lot of things. Karrin's unarmed combat abilities were already straining things even back several books ago.
We had a discussion on the old forum about the problem of Murphy's height once, I remember. Believability of her combat abilities was already straining because of her stated height. Size and strength absolutely do matter in a fight, contrary to movies and TV, and Karrin's ability at aikido and related skills was already pushing the WSOD of some readers.
High martial arts skill or not, in the vast majority of cases, if a woman Karrin's size fights a man Hendrick's size and power unarmed, she is going to lose. Badly. Possibly cripplingly/lethally. Training and skill and experience can offset that...some. But only to a limited degree.
(Is it possible for a woman Karrin's size to overcome a man with Hendrick's size and strength in hand to hand? Yes. In principle. It's very improbable in practice. It could happen occasionally if the woman is very skilled and the guy is careless or untrained. But it's more plausible for the high skill tiny girl to cripple/kill the big guy than to pin him without hurting him. But Karrin did that sort of capture regularly.)
That's against mortal foes. It's much worse against superbeings.
Karrin's age was becoming an issue for believability, too. Karrin was almost certainly some years older than Harry, and Harry is somewhere around 50. Granted she kept herself in superb shape, but it's still an issue. 55 or 56 is not 35, much less 20.
(In Storm Front, Harry was mid-20s. Karrin was already an experienced cop at that time, and had to be old enough to have been married and divorced twice. Granted her first marriage was very young, but she still pretty much has to be older than Harry.)
So there again was a reason I knew JB was going to have to power her up, kill her off, or put her on a bus. Time was catching up to her. Ignoring the effects of age, on top of already winking at the problem of her height, would really have strained things.
(I suspect, if JB had the whole series to do over, Karrin would be at least average female height, maybe closer to Gard's height. That would have helped a lot in the believability metrics for her combat skills.)
Yeah.
To be clear: no merely "vanilla" human is capable of "keeping up" with the essentially superhuman world Harry now inhabits & operates within.
That's not 100% true, there are ways for a baseline human to play in that league believably...but all of them kind of go against Karrin's personality and background.
For ex, imagine a Karrin who trained her marksmanship up to the high end, and studied the vulnerabilities of various races of monsters and vampires. Then she takes them out from a distance with a rifle and carefully prepared and selected ammo, as an assassin-style operative with a support group.
The Chicago guardians were sort of such a group, but to keep up in Harry's world, Karrin would have to be a lot more ruthless than she has been, and prepared to cross a lot of line she never was before.
Imagine a Karrin who always carries a knife, and who instead of going for the pin, her first reaction to hostile contact is to slide that knife into a vital organ, going for the kill. Imagine a Karrin who became very good at ambush kills. A Karrin who gathered intel on the various players, and used it to blackmail one power player to help her against another.
She probably had the brains to do that. She had the will. She never lacked for courage, if anything she had too much of that last. But would such a Karrin still be Harry's Karrin? She'd be more like Kincaid's dream girl, wouldn't she? Or a candidate for Marcone's lieutenant?
But I can't see any way she could remain basically a cop (disgraced or not) and a major player in Harry's life at the same time.
-
No matter how good a man he is, I don't think Michel is in any position to offer multi-dimensional alternate-reality info to Harry. ;)
Unless you're suggesting an afterlife-Michael?
I'm kinda-sorta expecting Mirror,Mirror to have a redeemed Marcone: with Mirror!Harry no longer Fighting the Good Fight, Marcone will increasingly have needed to stand up for those few principles (e.g. "no kids") he has, alienating most of the other Bad Guys and forcing Marcone deeper into the Good Guy camp. Our Harry!Prime will give Marcone one of the Swords (probably Amoracchius), and further complicate Harry's feelings towards Marcone!Prime: he's actually really close to being a viable KotC!
I wouldn't be 100% shocked if our time line's Marcone someday ends up as a Knight. The more so because he has a Coin, oddly enough.
-
I wouldn't be 100% shocked if our time line's Marcone someday ends up as a Knight. The more so because he has a Coin, oddly enough.
I can see that, and have said the moment he took up the coin, Marcone likes to be calling the shots, and contrary to what he might have been told, he won't be calling the shots. However the magical power he gains by the coin maybe too great an advantage for him to give up... Or he will end up like the poor soul crucified by his choice that Harry saw in that accidental soul gaze of a Denarian back in Death Masks..
We had a discussion on the old forum about the problem of Murphy's height once, I remember. Believability of her combat abilities was already straining because of her stated height. Size and strength absolutely do matter in a fight, contrary to movies and TV, and Karrin's ability at aikido and related skills was already pushing the WSOD of some readers.
High martial arts skill or not, in the vast majority of cases, if a woman Karrin's size fights a man Hendrick's size and power unarmed, she is going to lose. Badly. Possibly cripplingly/lethally. Training and skill and experience can offset that...some. But only to a limited degree.
When she went up against Nic in Skin Game, he wiped the floor with her.. Now it is possible that Andruiel gave him added strength etc., but then in Peace Talks she is beating up Valkyrie and she had just removed her cast, herself only hours before. As I said when Murphy was a tough professional cop she was great, when she left that job, the character started to go down hill. I don't think most things Jim tried to do with the character really worked, there was no power up so in the end with every physical confrontation with the supernaturally strong etc. as she aged had many of us rolling our eyes sighing to ourselves, "give me a break!"
True, training, skill, and will can overcome limits of size and strength and age...to a point. To a very limited point.
As you say, if Jim had shifted her role to accommodate that reality it could have worked better, but he didn't.
One more point on that, much of the appeal of Murphy over the years was the fact that she was a plain vanilla human. Extraordinary skills maybe, but still an ordinary vanilla human, so to keep her that way, no power ups. Fact of life for ALL ordinary vanilla humans, time takes it's toll, ordinary vanilla humans age, we see that on the athletic field all of the time! No matter how great, how in shape, how trained, how naturally gifted, eventually steps become slower, the punch or hit less hard, the jump not as high, and eyesight not as keen.. So if the timeline is right and at the time of her death, Murphy was in her mid-fifties and with every Super Woman move, some of us rolled our eyes..
-
if the timeline is right and at the time of her death, Murphy was in her mid-fifties
The official timeline puts Harry as being born 26 years before Storm Front (which happens in March, we know his birthday is in October), and Murphy as being born 29 years before Storm Front (we don't know when her birthday is). That makes Murphy around 3 years and maybe a few months older than Harry is.
BG takes place 14 years after Storm Front, so, Karrin was in her early 40s in Battle Ground, she was 43 if she had a birthday before July.
And just for reference: Harry is turning 40 that October after Battle Ground, Thomas and Butters are 45-46, and Michael is somewhere between 57-60.
-
The official timeline puts Harry as being born 26 years before Storm Front (which happens in March, we know his birthday is in October), and Murphy as being born 29 years before Storm Front (we don't know when her birthday is). That makes Murphy around 3 years and maybe a few months older than Harry is.
BG takes place 14 years after Storm Front, so, Karrin was in her early 40s in Battle Ground, she was 43 if she had a birthday before July.
And just for reference: Harry is turning 40 that October after Battle Ground, Thomas and Butters are 45-46, and Michael is somewhere between 57-60.
Yes, but if the books continue to reflect real time, and Jim is averaging one every three to five years, Harry would be 43 to 45 the next book, still considered quite young by wizard standards, but menopausal 48 year old Murphy is in middle age, and the next one would put her over 50, by the time of the BAT she would have been on Social Security had she lived, while Harry was just reaching his prime. What makes me sad is how she died, better she had died from her hand to hand with Nic than a bullet through the neck from a panicked cop.
-
Yes, but if the books continue to reflect real time, and Jim is averaging one every three to five years, Harry would be 43 to 45 the next book, still considered quite young by wizard standards, but menopausal 48 year old Murphy is in middle age, and the next one would put her over 50, by the time of the BAT she would have been on Social Security had she lived, while Harry was just reaching his prime. What makes me sad is how she died, better she had died from her hand to hand with Nic than a bullet through the neck from a panicked cop.
The books have not been reflecting real time in a while. There's just 5 months between Skin Game and Peace Talks, hours between Peace Talks and Battle Ground. And we already know that the next book will cover the year of his engagement to Lara, which puts the start and finish of it within one year right after Battle Ground. There won't be a leap in years to the next book that would reflect our real time or publication time, nor do we know what Jim will continue to do in that regard in the future, yet.
I'm not arguing over what's prime age or whatever, just pointing out what the facts are regarding the ages of the characters in-universe. Not interested in making assumptions here.
-
Thank you LaraBeck I came here to say the same. The books timeline is shorter than our current time because they do not reflect our timeline anymore. So Harry and Karrin are (were) still quite young. Nevertheless, a 40+ petite woman will be having a lot of trouble facing younger and bigger threats, even the vanilla ones. I think it was not so bad so far. As Harry mentions once clever vanilla people adapt. They use armors, like Charity. They use kevlar but they can learn to use magic things. But "badly coping" is not enough to keep with the sort of things Harry is facing nowadays. So yes, something had to change.
Mira, I am also sad for Murphy's way of dying. For several reasons, one of them is that she was a cop, she likes cops, she would have hated to be killed by friendly fire of another cop. And for a stupid, nervous one? She would have gone ballistic. Not for herself, but for Rudolph's incompetence.
I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?
-
Except not: ...
Everything you say about hand-to-hand combat, & size/strength mattering, is absolutely true.
But because this is fantasy, and the "superhuman(ish)" tropes around martial arts do exist in the nerdosphere, Murphy's exploits had a "fits the narrative" gloss.
Note that, in large part, much of the very-real "superiority" of martial arts come from a dedicated and practiced suite of technique/method/theories that are unfamiliar to the opponents (as witness the dominance of BJJ for the first few years after it entered MMA matches).
-
... I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?
My own WAG (that I've posted before) is that Prime!Harry gets abducted by Mirror!Harry during the weddingday prep... Harry checks his reflection (because showing up rumpled would piss off Lara) and Mirror!Harry pulls him into the mirror.
THE END (of Twelve Months).
And then, when he gets back...
Lara has been stood up by her groom.
And the Winter Knight has disobeyed Mab's direct orders.
and poor Harry thought Ascher/Lasciel was a problem instance of "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."
No, Harry, but you are about to learn...
-
My own WAG (that I've posted before) is that Prime!Harry gets abducted by Mirror!Harry during the weddingday prep... Harry checks his reflection (because showing up rumpled would piss off Lara) and Mirror!Harry pulls him into the mirror.
THE END (of Twelve Months).
And then, when he gets back...
Lara has been stood up by her groom.
And the Winter Knight has disobeyed Mab's direct orders.
and poor Harry thought Ascher/Lasciel was a problem instance of "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."
No, Harry, but you are about to learn...
Unless Mirror Harry is also the Winter Knight, Mab will know immediately and so will Molly that he is an imposter. And that means that Lara will be told right away. It would be a bad play for him to even show up in this universe without months of research and prep and he'd have to take Harry from some point that is more isolated and less time sensitive if he's going to jump into his shoes. I guess he could do it with a mind switch like Corpsetaker uses but even that has time issues because that's going to be a real fight.
-
Everything you say about hand-to-hand combat, & size/strength mattering, is absolutely true.
But because this is fantasy, and the "superhuman(ish)" tropes around martial arts do exist in the nerdosphere, Murphy's exploits had a "fits the narrative" gloss.
But that's just the problem. One of the reasons the Dresden Files has been so good is precisely that JB hasn't indulged that tendency very far. Yeah, magic is real and vampires roam...but people who try to ignore practical reality get into trouble fast even so.
One of my favorite bits in the early books is an incident where Harry more or less did the 'tough guy PI' routine with Marcone. As a side effect, someone was killed.
It wasn't Harry who killed him, but things didn't play out like in the movies, either.
Susan did something stupid...and she paid a very steep price.
In one of the side stories, Billy tries to get 'tough' with Marcone...and ends up with a knife in his side. As John himself points out, Billy simply can't do the sort of thing Harry can get away with. He's not powerful enough.
At a couple of points Harry starts to make a movie-hero-ish speech demanding/threatening things with Mab. All it gets him is agony and an order to shut up. His opinion doesn't matter to her and he can't do anything about it (at least not yet), so his best option is to shut up.
Etc.
For the most part, JB has deliberately refrained from doing the various tropes of 'narrative gloss of the nerdosphere'. Karrin's unrealistic abilities at akido were already a partial, limited exception, and it was becoming glaring. Ignoring the effects of age, or the reality of the growing danger level around Harry, would make it worse. Do very much of that, and the DV starts to resemble stuff like Harry Potter or the like.
On a related note:
Nevertheless, a 40+ petite woman will be having a lot of trouble facing younger and bigger threats, even the vanilla ones. I think it was not so bad so far. As Harry mentions once clever vanilla people adapt. They use armors, like Charity. They use kevlar but they can learn to use magic things.
But for the most part, Karrin wasn't doing that. What I mean is that she was not really adapting all that well to her situation post Changes. She wasn't a cop anymore, but she still had cop instincts, deep down I think she thought of herself as a cop. But she was, de facto, now part of John's organization, though she was in denial about that. Butters was actually more self-honest on that point than Karrin was.
Note that Karrin had reverted to some of her attitude from the early books, before the loup garou rampage, angry, touchy, trying desperately to control a situation that was spiraling beyond her control. When Karrin feels threatened and out of control, she gets mad as a coping mechanism.
But "badly coping" is not enough to keep with the sort of things Harry is facing nowadays. So yes, something had to change.
Mira, I am also sad for Murphy's way of dying. For several reasons, one of them is that she was a cop, she likes cops, she would have hated to be killed by friendly fire of another cop. And for a stupid, nervous one? She would have gone ballistic. Not for herself, but for Rudolph's incompetence.
I don't like how she died...but at the same time, I approve of it.
What do I mean by that? Above, I was talking about how the DV doesn't run on narrative traditions. It's grittier than that. Karrin's death wasn't a traditional protagonist death, but it was a realistic death. That's precisely the sort of thing that sloppy trigger discipline and recklessness can produce, and we had plenty of precedent for Rudolph's sloppiness and recklessness.
It's precisely that realism that makes the DV, for all the vampires and magic, feel real and impactful and believable. Karrin deserved better, but...so what? That's life.
I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?
Define marry.
-
I agree about how Karin's death was good from a narrative point of view. I just meant that in universe is so sad and she herself would have hated to go that way.
Define marry.
I meant the actual ritual and ceremony. The part of the sex is a secondary mystery but it is also relevant for the first part because we know that traditionally marriages were not valid until they were consummated.
-
But for the most part, Karrin wasn't doing that. What I mean is that she was not really adapting all that well to her situation post Changes. She wasn't a cop anymore, but she still had cop instincts, deep down I think she thought of herself as a cop. But she was, de facto, now part of John's organization, though she was in denial about that. Butters was actually more self-honest on that point than Karrin was.
She also became a hypocrite post Changes, mostly manifested by what she told Harry as to why she wouldn't return the custodianship of the Swords back to Harry, claiming she had better judgement where the Swords were concerned, he couldn't be trusted etc. Then turned around and did everything a Sword custodian shouldn't do, breaking the rules that govern the use of a Holy Sword, and got a Holy Sword broken. As Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, she appointed herself,custodian, she wasn't appointed. Though it did turn out well in the end, there was no remorse on her part about being so arrogant that she thought she knew better than God.
But because this is fantasy, and the "superhuman(ish)" tropes around martial arts do exist in the nerdosphere, Murphy's exploits had a "fits the narrative" gloss.
Not really, because supposedly and many people here have argued that the main attraction of Murphy was the fact that she was very vanilla human, a believable character. That's what she was basically until she got fired from the police force. She was a martial arts champ, fine with in the limits of what is humanly possible for her size etc., believable. That's what people loved about her, but as time went on her character became more wonder womanish with supposedly the wisdom of Solomon, there are other characters that fit that role better than she did.
For the most part, JB has deliberately refrained from doing the various tropes of 'narrative gloss of the nerdosphere'. Karrin's unrealistic abilities at akido were already a partial, limited exception, and it was becoming glaring. Ignoring the effects of age, or the reality of the growing danger level around Harry, would make it worse. Do very much of that, and the DV starts to resemble stuff like Harry Potter or the like.
Exactly
-
She also became a hypocrite post Changes, mostly manifested by what she told Harry as to why she wouldn't return the custodianship of the Swords back to Harry, claiming she had better judgement where the Swords were concerned, he couldn't be trusted etc. Then turned around and did everything a Sword custodian shouldn't do, breaking the rules that govern the use of a Holy Sword, and got a Holy Sword broken. As Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, she appointed herself,custodian, she wasn't appointed.
To be fair, that was true to her past characterization, though it had been a while since we had seen that side of her personality. We saw the same character traits come out after she lost her police position that she displayed in Storm Front and Fool Moon. Granted that was a long time ago, but the same traits are visible.
Karrin has many virtues, but she also has a strong desire for control. Not to dominate others so much (though that can be a side effect when it goes badly) but rather control over her own situation, over events she's part of. When focused properly it made her a better cop, when it was focused badly it caused her to display bad judgement. Her reaction to out of control tends to be anger and an attempt to force control. She also hates to admit, even (or esp.) to herself, that she's afraid. It's a linked trait.
When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast. Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her. Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear. She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.
But Karrin was never good at admitting fear to others or herself, and she reacted to that fear by trying to control it, to apply her comfort belief (the law) to it, to treat it like a mundane criminal conspiracy or the like. This was dangerous self-deception, and it eventually cost Ron Carmichael his life.
The events of Fool Moon sobered Karrin up a lot, and also forcibly humbled her. After that, she usually recognized that the supernatural was too powerful for her, she simply was not going to have full control. Occasionally she started to fall into that former pattern, but Harry could usually bring her to her senses by reminding her of the loup garou. We saw variations on that happen (off the top of my head) in Death Masks, Blood Rites, Proven Guilty, and Small Favor. In each case she would start to slip back into old habits of thought, and either Harry would remind of the loup garou or some other supernatural event would remind her of the power imbalance, and she would sober up.
But when Harry apparently died and she was no longer a cop and no longer had Harry there, her control issues flared up again and that old anger and arrogance (which is disguised fear) reappeared.
Not really, because supposedly and many people here have argued that the main attraction of Murphy was the fact that she was very vanilla human, a believable character. That's what she was basically until she got fired from the police force. She was a martial arts champ, fine with in the limits of what is humanly possible for her size etc., believable. That's what people loved about her, but as time went on her character became more wonder womanish with supposedly the wisdom of Solomon, there are other characters that fit that role better than she did.
Exactly
Another issue with bringing Karrin back is the Harry/Karrin romantic/sexual relationship.
Back in the early books, a Harry/Karrin pairing seemed totally natural to me. I would find myself thinking that she made way more sense for Harry than Susan did. Their worlds and lives intersected comfortably. That was also before we knew about Harry's lifespan.
To my mind, though, even by Proven Guilty or White Night, the idea of Harry/Karrin seemed less and less plausible and natural. Harry's life was changing, it was kind of like they'd missed their 'launch window'. Also, Karrin's reasons for rejecting a relationship with Harry, way back when, were by no means trivial or bad. Harry's lifespan makes anything other than a temporary fling with a normal woman a highly doubtful prospect. Once we knew about his lifespan, suddenly Elaine or Molly both seemed like more natural prospects than Karrin. Elaine and Molly also seemed more 'natural' fits with the world Harry was moving in and the changes he was undergoing. By the time of Turn Coat, I had started sort of hearing that Taylor Swift song in my head when Molly was with Harry and he would be thinking about Karrin: You Belong With Me. When Harry was with Elaine, that too seemed more 'natural' after a while.
If Karrin were to come back as a baseline mortal...all the same relationship issues suddenly reappear, too. If she comes back as something other than a baseline mortal, one of her main character distinctions has vanished. I'm not sure this problem has a solution.
-
To be fair, that was true to her past characterization, though it had been a while since we had seen that side of her personality. We saw the same character traits come out after she lost her police position that she displayed in Storm Front and Fool Moon. Granted that was a long time ago, but the same traits are visible.
Agreed, I also think Harry is attracted to that kind of controlling personality because he was an orphan.
When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast. Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her. Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear. She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.
Susan's reaction was weird, on one hand she saw it as career enhancing, but on the other I don't think she actually believed the danger in spite of what she witnessed and experienced. In the end that's what was her downfall, her refusal to believe Harry when he told her why he wasn't going to Bianca's party. In some respects not unlike Murphy, but different, a smart woman so confident in her own judgement that she ignored what Harry was trying to tell her. Murphy so confident in her law background thought she was qualified to pass judgement on Nic, when it wasn't her place to judge.
Another issue with bringing Karrin back is the Harry/Karrin romantic/sexual relationship.
Back in the early books, a Harry/Karrin pairing seemed totally natural to me. I would find myself thinking that she made way more sense for Harry than Susan did. Their worlds and lives intersected comfortably. That was also before we knew about Harry's lifespan.
I never was a fan of a Harry/Karrin romantic relationship simply because I preferred it when they had a professional relationship. Friendship was fine, but romance mucked it up in my opinion. I didn't care for his relationship with Susan either because though I won't say that she didn't love him, her ambition complicated their relationship.
To my mind, though, even by Proven Guilty or White Night, the idea of Harry/Karrin seemed less and less plausible and natural. Harry's life was changing, it was kind of like they'd missed their 'launch window'. Also, Karrin's reasons for rejecting a relationship with Harry, way back when, were by no means trivial or bad]
Yes, and those reasons didn't go away with time, they were just as valid in Peace Talks as they were back in Proven Guilty. Actually I lost a lot of respect for the character when the romance took over. Why? Because it was refreshing for a man and a woman to have a normal professional/friendship working relationship, I never saw any real sexual tension between them.
If Karrin were to come back as a baseline mortal...all the same relationship issues suddenly reappear, too. If she comes back as something other than a baseline mortal, one of her main character distinctions has vanished. I'm not sure this problem has a solution.
In short, it doesn't! Murphy was a vanilla mortal, as such, when she was murdered, she should stay D-E-A-D.. That sounds blunt, but in my opinion the rest of the series is going to be complicated enough without the distraction of a returning Murphy from Valhalla.. To quote Gard, they don't return until living memory of them is gone, and there is a reason for that. Murphy died, we can mourn her, but the series needs to move on.
-
When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast. Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her. Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear. She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.
Susan's reaction was weird, on one hand she saw it as career enhancing, but on the other I don't think she actually believed the danger in spite of what she witnessed and experienced.
I agree with that 100%. She believed with the intellectual part of her mind, but the gut-level fear that would be a natural reaction was absent. On some deep level she wasn't taking it seriously. She was entranced by the vision of writing the Story, and even when Harry pointed out that she would never be permitted to publish it anyway, I don't think she really heard him.
Years ago, I made a comparison with Susan and her reactions: imagine if, instead of an invite to the Vampire Ball, Susan had been given an opportunity of a lifetime for a reporter. Imagine she had a chance to interview President Bush and Osama bin Laden at the same time, any questions allowed and answered. The sort of thing a reporter can only fantasize about.
But there's a condition: to get to the interview she has to swim naked through a tank of chummed reef sharks. Would she accept? Of course not, it would be obvious suicide. She would recognize the sharks as a lethal threat. But she didn't, deep down, think of the vampires that way, because 'there's no such thing as vampires'. They weren't real to her.
The monsters were quite real for Karrin from the beginning, as is shown by her natural, healthy reaction: fear. Karrin was visibly terrified of the supernatural, but had trouble admitting it to herself.
I never was a fan of a Harry/Karrin romantic relationship simply because I preferred it when they had a professional relationship. Friendship was fine, but romance mucked it up in my opinion. I didn't care for his relationship with Susan either because though I won't say that she didn't love him, her ambition complicated their relationship.
Yes, and those reasons didn't go away with time, they were just as valid in Peace Talks as they were back in Proven Guilty. Actually I lost a lot of respect for the character when the romance took over. Why? Because it was refreshing for a man and a woman to have a normal professional/friendship working relationship, I never saw any real sexual tension between them.
Oh, I did. There was definitely sexual and romantic tension. It's just that it didn't necessarily make sense for them to act on it.
-
I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?
Define marry.
I meant the actual ritual and ceremony. The part of the sex is a secondary mystery but it is also relevant for the first part because we know that traditionally marriages were not valid until they were consummated.
The reason I asked is that 'marriage' can have specialized meanings in the sort of Old World political alliance scenarios such as Mab is invoking. Will Harry marry Lara? Maybe, but I don't know that it'll end up being what we usually think of as marriage.
There are obvious issues. For ex, realistically, Lara can't be faithful. She has to feed, at least occasionally. Harry would not be wise to indulge in much marital sex with Lara, for the same reason he would not be wise to relax with a hit of heroin. But I envision 'political' arrangements that might be called a marriage, too.
(Also, I'm pretty sure Harry would be very reluctant to have kids with Lara! And if they did, making sure those kids escaped the White Court status would be a maximum priority for Harry. Which doesn't mean JB might not do it, of course.)
-
It is quite improbable for Lara to get pregnant, at least in theory. Perhaps Harry's magic could help with that. But I insist, in my opinion they won't have sex. Harry is protected and will try to keep it that way.
-
It is quite improbable for Lara to get pregnant, at least in theory ...
Except "improbable" is very-far from "impossible"(particularly if Jim needs a story to go a certain way).
Remember: every whampire of the White Court is an "improbable" pregnancy.
-
Except "improbable" is very-far from "impossible"(particularly if Jim needs a story to go a certain way).
Remember: every whampire of the White Court is an "improbable" pregnancy.
Don't think it will happen though, didn't Jim say no more kids for Harry?
-
Im i the only one who thinks that Lara and Harry are going to fall for each other and both of them will not release how the the other feels.
Before you shoot me hear me out.
Lara already likes Harry according to the valkyrie. Harry considers Lara the most human monster he has met. Harry's crouching moron hidden badass thing is catnip to the ladies in his life. Plus nothing would make Harry more miserable than it. I mean just think of the angst
-
You're not alone, we're just in the minority.
Lara would make a great love interest for Harry. It would also solve his money and information contact problems. Jim might go the other way because Lara would make Harry's professional life too easy.
-
I had thought early on that Lara was a good match for Harry, however I doubt that it will end in a happily ever after for them.
The difference between Lara and Susan and even Murphy, is Lara fully understands that Harry is no ordinary man, he is a powerful wizard and she respects that power. I don't think that reality ever fully sunk into either Susan or Murphy's head, I don't think they ever fully respected that power.
-
Except "improbable" is very-far from "impossible"(particularly if Jim needs a story to go a certain way).
Remember: every whampire of the White Court is an "improbable" pregnancy.
Not quite. The improbable pregancy acute for women. That is why Papa Raith has several children. But even when they are very old, none of his daughters has a child. Neither does Madeleine (as far as we know).
I had thought early on that Lara was a good match for Harry, however I doubt that it will end in a happily ever after for them.
The difference between Lara and Susan and even Murphy, is Lara fully understands that Harry is no ordinary man, he is a powerful wizard and she respects that power. I don't think that reality ever fully sunk into either Susan or Murphy's head, I don't think they ever fully respected that power.
I agree. I also like Lara as a character But she is a monster and Harry would not accept what she does.
-
... But she is a monster and Harry would not accept what she does.
This, I think.
Lara has to harm people to survive. Likely has to kill people if she's to maintain her top-tier power... and getting deposed is likely a death-sentence in the White Court.
I don't see any way for Harry to be OK with this.
I think we're looking at a "professional working relationship," with some simmering sexual tension; but no intimacy.
I expect Mab knows this, and ordering Harry to "marry Lara" is (among other things) her way of ramping-up Harry's training.
-
Don't think it will happen though, didn't Jim say no more kids for Harry?
I do know that he said no more "unexpected relatives" (brother... grandfather... daughter... each of those came as a living relative, previously-unknown to Harry. I think Jim might weasel a pregnancy (with child to follow) "doesn't count."
Technically.
Remember: every little loophole Mab & Lea exploit, those are Jim Butcher's writing. He revels in weasel-wording!
That said... I too think it won't happen. He's written Maggie & Bonnie, and I think that suffices from an authorial POV, he doesn't need to add another child.
-
Don't think it will happen though, didn't Jim say no more kids for Harry?
JB also said, more than once, that he wasn't going to kill Karrin or power her up. He sometimes changes his mind, and sometimes his hand is forced by the flow of the story.
Not saying I consider Harry/Lara as parents likely, but I wouldn't absolutely rule it out, either. Not when it could cause Harry so much worry and grief.
(I wonder, if Lara did fall pregnant with Harry, would she want the child to escape White Courtdom, or would she be fighting against Harry to make sure her child was immortal too?)
-
Im i the only one who thinks that Lara and Harry are going to fall for each other and both of them will not release how the the other feels.
I wonder if Lara's already been down that road in the past.
According to Thomas, Lara has a scar on her palm where she once tried to pick up the 'wrong wedding ring'. Presumably one charged with love. What I've wondered ever since then was whether or not that wedding ring was Lara's. After all, we know next to nothing about her past, other than that she met Stacy when Stacy was young and wild.
-
According to Thomas, Lara has a scar on her palm where she once tried to pick up the 'wrong wedding ring'. Presumably one charged with love. What I've wondered ever since then was whether or not that wedding ring was Lara's. After all, we know next to nothing about her past, other than that she met Stacy when Stacy was young and wild.
Somehow I doubt it, unless it was a man's wedding ring and belonged to a long lost beloved husband. I guess if she had been married, she could have continued to wear it until the true love that she felt or he felt caused the ring to burn her. But you'd think that would be on her finger.