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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: OutsideIn on April 10, 2024, 01:07:19 AM
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I think Harry and Lara do marry ...do the wild thing honeymoon...and Lara conceives...just a afterthought twist... besides Maggie needs to be a big sister. 😳😜👍
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I think Harry and Lara do marry ...do the wild thing honeymoon...and Lara conceives...just a afterthought twist... besides Maggie needs to be a big sister. 😳😜👍
She already is..
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I don't think there will be another child. Not with Lara. I kind of hope, he won't marry her, but I admit, if he does, it would definitely make his life even more interesting.
I kind of hope that Murphy will upgrade in Valhalla and come back as a valkyrie during the next 2 or 3 books after 12 Months. Because of how he always saw her with his Sight.
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I think Harry and Lara do marry ...do the wild thing honeymoon...and Lara conceives...just a afterthought twist... besides Maggie needs to be a big sister. 😳😜👍
I think it's unlikely, that's what Thomas' baby will be used for. That'll be the tension between them. If they get married, which is probable, IMO (just so Murph can return and get that funny surprise, lol).
Maggie already is a big sister (sorta). And I hope Jim at least starts writing both Maggie and Bonnie is a way that makes sense before throwing another character with no personality into the story.
Besides, Harry wouldn't want another child, and certainly not like this. I don't think it matters if Mab demands it, he'll find a way around it, it's just too much to ask from him at this point.
Personally, I still doubt anything physical could happen with Lara, there's still the protection from Murphy, and while it's not clear how it works now that she's dead or the influence the wedding could have on it, it just seems kind of silly to establish the protection in one book, just when Harry is going to need it the most being in the White Court, for it to just be swept away by a wedding vow that is going to be, probably, very carefully worded by lawyers, not by feelings/intentions.
I don't think there will be another child. Not with Lara. I kind of hope, he won't marry her, but I admit, if he does, it would definitely make his life even more interesting.
I kind of hope that Murphy will upgrade in Valhalla and come back as a valkyrie during the next 2 or 3 books after 12 Months. Because of how he always saw her with his Sight.
I think there's a fair chance for that. 1. If we're to believe the insinuation that Gard makes in Aftermath, Valkyrie is a state/position that can be obtained, and we all know how Murphy is, she climbed up the ladder pretty fast in her old job, she would at least try to do it in the afterlife as well, if it's remotely possible. 2. Harry is slowly being surrounded by weapons/attributes/allies that he will need for whatever final battle he has to fight, it wouldn't surprise me that what happened to Murph was a strategic play to put her (even if only to play with the myth of it) in place to be the Valkyrie that favors him and accompany him to victory.
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I think there's a fair chance for that. 1. If we're to believe the insinuation that Gard makes in Aftermath, Valkyrie is a state/position that can be obtained, and we all know how Murphy is, she climbed up the ladder pretty fast in her old job, she would at least try to do it in the afterlife as well, if it's remotely possible. 2. Harry is slowly being surrounded by weapons/attributes/allies that he will need for whatever final battle he has to fight, it wouldn't surprise me that what happened to Murph was a strategic play to put her (even if only to play with the myth of it) in place to be the Valkyrie that favors him and accompany him to victory.
I think you are mistaken, Valkyrie isn't a state/position that can be obtained.. Though Jim might make it one.
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I think Harry and Lara do marry ...do the wild thing honeymoon...and Lara conceives...just a afterthought twist... besides Maggie needs to be a big sister. 😳😜👍
WoJ is that there are no more plot-twist-new-family-member elements planned.
I don't think Harry & Lara can get together... WK+Whampire is a pairing of sex-mojo's that's very unstable!
WK-Mantle would almost-certainly try to kill the Whampire trying to control it, who would likely need to kill the WK if she was to survive.
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I don't think there will be another child. Not with Lara. I kind of hope, he won't marry her, but I admit, if he does, it would definitely make his life even more interesting.
I kind of hope that Murphy will upgrade in Valhalla and come back as a valkyrie during the next 2 or 3 books after 12 Months. Because of how he always saw her with his Sight.
Unless Vaderrung makes an exception, I doubt it. I think Valkyries need to be alive to be "hired". That said, we haven't seen the last of Murphy.
Side note: Jim better give us a fitting death for Rufus... like a passing mention that he slipped in the bathtub and broke his neck. Every time I re read or listen to Fool Moon I am like "let that a**hole die, Harry!"
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... Rufus...
errrr... Rudolph?
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I think Harry and Lara do marry ...do the wild thing honeymoon...and Lara conceives...just a afterthought twist... besides Maggie needs to be a big sister. 😳😜👍
Mab's comment on the establishment of the lasting alliance between Winter and The White Court stated that there should be an issue, a "blending of bloodlines". That means a kid.
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Mab's comment on the establishment of the lasting alliance between Winter and The White Court stated that there should be an issue, a "blending of bloodlines". That means a kid.
Yeah, but until it happens it is more of a hope..
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Mab's comment on the establishment of the lasting alliance between Winter and The White Court stated that there should be an issue, a "blending of bloodlines". That means a kid.
I think Mab -- as per her usual MO -- has set herself up in a win-win situation.
If the marriage goes off, then she's got deep tentacles of power into the Whampire Court (and possibly an heir on the way (but it seems dubious; I'm sure Summer-fertility could overcome whampire infertility issues... Winter notsomuch... ).
If Harry wiggles out, she's got a more-political, more-competent Knight.
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I think is possible that Harry and Lara married, but nothing physical between them, as Harry is protected and will hold to that protection for the memory of Murphy.
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I think is possible that Harry and Lara married, but nothing physical between them, as Harry is protected and will hold to that protection for the memory of Murphy.
I agree.
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I think is possible that Harry and Lara married, but nothing physical between them, as Harry is protected and will hold to that protection for the memory of Murphy.
I find that logistically dubious; let me explain...
- Justine broke the whamp protection via "friendly but not meaningful" sex.
- I'm pretty sure a Winter-Law-valid command from Mab would be, "go have not-meaningful sex with the woman of your choice, so you can fulfill your marital obligations."
- And the WK-Mantle would largely obligate Harry to do so.
I don't think Jim would write this, but I think the Dresdenverse is pretty clear how that'd all work; so I think Harry's going to wiggle out of the marriage some other way.
My current WAG is that he doesn't find a way to wiggle out... but an attempt to murder him gives him the out he needs: mirror!Harry kidnaps our Harry on his wedding-day.
Then -- having publicly jilted Lara at the altar, and publicly disobeyed Mab's command -- Harry returns to his own universe a day or two later.
He'll ... uh ... have some 'splainin to do. It's not the sort of thing either Lara or Mab is likely to forgive.
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I find that logistically dubious; let me explain...
- Justine broke the whamp protection via "friendly but not meaningful" sex.
- I'm pretty sure a Winter-Law-valid command from Mab would be, "go have not-meaningful sex with the woman of your choice, so you can fulfill your marital obligations."
- And the WK-Mantle would largely obligate Harry to do so.
I do not think that is possible. Changes, Ghost Story and Cold Days are the books I reread the less, so I may be misremembering, but I think Harry made a clause that Mab cannot just ordering him around. No puppeteer. And for Murphy Harry will have the will power to resist the mantle or whatever. Marrying someone for political reasons can be argued as a part of the WK obligations, but I do not think that includes being raped. And being forced to have sex unwillingly is rape. Also, if Mab forced him to do something like that, Harry would be rebellious all the way, useless to her.
But even more important, I think Mab is not aware of the protection. Once (if) she realizes that is the case, she won't force Harry to break it. She has shown respect for Murphy and for Harry's feelings about her.
And yes, your scenario for Harry evading the wedding is quite probable.
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I do not think that is possible. Changes, Ghost Story and Cold Days are the books I reread the less, so I may be misremembering, but I think Harry made a clause that Mab cannot just ordering him around. No puppeteer. And for Murphy Harry will have the will power to resist the mantle or whatever. Marrying someone for political reasons can be argued as a part of the WK obligations, but I do not think that includes being raped. And being forced to have sex unwillingly is rape. Also, if Mab forced him to do something like that, Harry would be rebellious all the way, useless to her.
But even more important, I think Mab is not aware of the protection. Once (if) she realizes that is the case, she won't force Harry to break it. She has shown respect for Murphy and for Harry's feelings about her.
And yes, your scenario for Harry evading the wedding is quite probable.
I agree, Harry's protection from Susan lasted for years to Lara's shock and her burn back in White Night when they kissed. Harry apparently didn't any relations with a woman in all of that time. It wasn't until he had that affair with Luccio did he begin to have relations again and his protection went away. I don't see Harry having casual sex with anyone so he could have relations with Lara, unless he cared for her in that way. I also doubt that, though possible I guess, that Lara could arrange for Harry to be raped.
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I do not think that is possible. Changes, Ghost Story and Cold Days are the books I reread the less, so I may be misremembering, but I think Harry made a clause that Mab cannot just ordering him around. No puppeteer. And for Murphy Harry will have the will power to resist the mantle or whatever. Marrying someone for political reasons can be argued as a part of the WK obligations, but I do not think that includes being raped. And being forced to have sex unwillingly is rape. Also, if Mab forced him to do something like that, Harry would be rebellious all the way, useless to her.
But even more important, I think Mab is not aware of the protection. Once (if) she realizes that is the case, she won't force Harry to break it. She has shown respect for Murphy and for Harry's feelings about her.
And yes, your scenario for Harry evading the wedding is quite probable.
Having just reread Changes, Mab can order Harry into bed with someone. The only condition he set was that she does not command him to raise his hand against his loved ones. But I don't think she wants to force him. As she said at the end of Battle Ground, she has buried many lovers, but the fight must be fought still. In her roundabout, tough love fae way, Mab is telling him to grieve, but to get back on the horse. She is probably aware of the protection, but expects Harry, Lara and Molly to figure a way around it especially since Harry works better when given a task and allowed to complete it in his own manner.
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Having just reread Changes, Mab can order Harry into bed with someone. The only condition he set was that she does not command him to raise his hand against his loved ones. But I don't think she wants to force him. As she said at the end of Battle Ground, she has buried many lovers, but the fight must be fought still. In her roundabout, tough love fae way, Mab is telling him to grieve, but to get back on the horse. She is probably aware of the protection, but expects Harry, Lara and Molly to figure a way around it especially since Harry works better when given a task and allowed to complete it in his own manner.
Mab maybe able to order him to bed with someone, but he cannot force him to have sex! Erections are often connected to emotions and attitude, so if Harry doesn't wanna, I don't see it happening.. Yeah, maybe with lots of stimulation, drugs, spells, hypnosis perhaps, but that kind of gets into whether it was involuntary, which is something we've discussed before, though it's been a long time.. If it is rape or otherwise involuntary, does it destroy the original protection? My thinking is it wouldn't, if fidelity is the basis of the protection. Since true love seems to be tied into the protection, fidelity must be part of it.
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Having just reread Changes, Mab can order Harry into bed with someone. The only condition he set was that she does not command him to raise his hand against his loved ones. But I don't think she wants to force him. As she said at the end of Battle Ground, she has buried many lovers, but the fight must be fought still. In her roundabout, tough love fae way, Mab is telling him to grieve, but to get back on the horse. She is probably aware of the protection, but expects Harry, Lara and Molly to figure a way around it especially since Harry works better when given a task and allowed to complete it in his own manner.
Ah yes, my favourite old theory about that loophole. (Mab is going to ask Harry to kill her, without realizing that after several years serving her, Harry loves her (not in the romantical sense!). So, Harry will be free of the obligations of the WK. Another option, that was not available before, is that Murphy comes back looking different and for some reason Mab, without knowing who she is, asks Harry to kill/destroy her, Instant freedom for Harry and nor him nor Mab would know why.
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... Erections are often connected to emotions and attitude, so if Harry doesn't wanna, I don't see it happening.. Yeah, maybe with lots of stimulation, drugs, spells, hypnosis perhaps ...
The only needed "drug" is already in Harry's system: the hyper-sexual & hyper-aggressive WK Mantle.
Harry has been able to keep it mostly under control (tho he broke some of Andi's ribs, I think, in Cold Days; and almost murdered Rudy in Battle Ground).
Harry does "wanna" (kind of a lot!) but doesn't often act on those wants (and never casually) because he makes a conscious decision not to... often in the face of extreme/supernatural provocation.
Mab could well eliminate that decision-making step, within the bounds of Winter Law and her specific bargain with Harry.
But, as I said: I don't think Jim is going to write it that way; that's how the rules of the Dresdenverse would work out if he wrote that situation, but I'm pretty sure he'll write something different.
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The only needed "drug" is already in Harry's system: the hyper-sexual & hyper-aggressive WK Mantle.
But technically, is that is mantel not Harry. It was Harry and not the mantel that shared true love with Murphy... So Harry is still protected.
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... But technically, is that is mantel not Harry. It was Harry and not the mantel that shared true love with Murphy... So Harry is still protected.
(a) No, it's Harry. The WK-mantle only boosts what's already there, makes some impulses louder than others. Everyone has these dark impulses.
(b) true love's protection vs. whampires isn't relevant to the WK Mantle, its urges, etc... Harry has zero protection from the WKM & Mab's authority under Winter Law (including valid orders such as "go f--k someone before your wedding-day").
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(a) No, it's Harry. The WK-mantle only boosts what's already there, makes some impulses louder than others. Everyone has these dark impulses.
(b) true love's protection vs. whampires isn't relevant to the WK Mantle, its urges, etc... Harry has zero protection from the WKM & Mab's authority under Winter Law (including valid orders such as "go f--k someone before your wedding-day").
[a] I'm not so sure about that... If the mantle boosts impulses that are already there, why wouldn't it boost the loving impulse just as strongly as the dark violent one? After all the love/hate thing seem to exist on the head/tails sides of the emotional coin. So because of the mantle, Harry's true love impulse might be stronger than ever.
Mab has no authority over Harry's emotions and the mantle only enhances them. True love is one of the strongest forces on earth, also I doubt that Mab, even the mantle can force Harry to have sex, it's more complicated than that.
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[a] I'm not so sure about that... If the mantle boosts impulses that are already there, why wouldn't it boost the loving impulse just as strongly as the dark violent one?
Because it's a Winter Mantle. It amplifies Harry's aggression, his territoriality, his sex-drive, his taste for violence.
It quiets his urge to compromise, his caution, and most if not all of his gentler emotions; it cannot mute them, but it often takes Harry an act of will to calm himself, to reconnect with those.
... also I doubt that Mab, even the mantle can force Harry to have sex, it's more complicated than that.
I think Winter Law takes no account of love. That doesn't mean the love doesn't exist, doesn't have impact; but love is a mystery to Winter, and the Law does not take it into account. Sex, in the Winter Court, is I think mostly about power; not affection or pleasure.
I'm pretty sure Winter Law would thus consider "go f--k someone" a perfectly valid command from the Queen of Winter.
And the WK Mantle would respond accordingly.
As you note, none of this actually forces Harry to have sex ... But I think he loses the protections of the Mantle if he violates Winter Law so egregiously as disobeying a direct & legla order from the Queen; remember his proclamation "Fuck Winter Law!" in Molly's apartment.
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I am not sure. It does not seem normally orders Harry things that are not his strict job. I do not think Harry refusing to obey that command you suggest would be considered Harry rejecting Winter itself.
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I am not sure. It does not seem normally orders Harry things that are not his strict job...
Do we know what Harry's "strict job" (as WK) even is?
I think I recall Bob telling Harry -- back in Summer Knight? -- that the Knight had different specific obligations to each of the 3 Queens; IIRC it was implied that there was no (or very little) overlap. But I don't think we ever heard what those obligations were.
We also know the Knights exists as both a mortal-interface element (interacting with mortals in ways the Queens may not) and explicitly (at least the WK) as a killer; and furthermore, that one of the SK's specific obligations is to act to limit the damages done by the WK.
... I do not think Harry refusing to obey that command you suggest would be considered Harry rejecting Winter itself.
I don't expect we're going to see Jim write things such that canon will resolve the question; so unless someone poses it at a signing+Q&A event or an online AMA, I expect the issue will remain both unresolved, and moot. ;)
But remember: Harry had sex as the centerpiece of the WK binding ritual.
I don't think Winter understands or cares about love but I think sex can carry all sorts of potency within Winter (and broadly within Faerie).
I think Winter Law... hmmm; shall we say "takes notice"? ... of sex.
Harry may find himself with a lot less wiggle-room than he's used to.
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I agree with all what you said, and until it is said in the books. we can especulate. I have the feeling if he Harry had thought that Mab could ask him to rape someone, he would not have considered becoming the WK or he would have make extra conditions in his "deal" with her. In your defense, perhaps Harry thought that Mab won't order him that, even if technically the law would allow her that. I do not know.
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But remember: Harry had sex as the centerpiece of the WK binding ritual.
Yes, he did, but it wasn't against his will, he did it because it was part of the ritual and becoming Winter Knight was the only way to save his daughter. There was no force involved, it was his choice.
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Yes, he did, but it wasn't against his will, he did it because it was part of the ritual and becoming Winter Knight was the only way to save his daughter. There was no force involved, it was his choice.
"Have sex with me or your daughter dies" is pretty God-damned coercive sex; pretty much any parent is "willing" under those circumstances.
Harry had been resisting Mab's overtures for over a decade before that.
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"Have sex with me or your daughter dies" is pretty God-damned coercive sex; pretty much any parent is "willing" under those circumstances.
Harry had been resisting Mab's overtures for over a decade before that.
Again, but that really break his true love protection? Key word here, coercive, means it was against his will. Wasn't just his daughter's life, but his, and his grandfather's lives as well, only viable bad choice among some worse choices was to become the Winter Knight. Part of that ritual was having sex with Mab, no choice in that either, if he wanted to become the Winter Knight. Would you call that being unfaithful to his true love? And yes, he would have gone on resisting Mab's overtures, but lives were on the line, his daughter, and his own..
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I see the situation of becoming a WK differently. Harry was the one asking for it, initiating the deal. It is different that if Mab has taken Maggie as a hostage and asked Harry to have sex with her. And if now that he already is the WK Mab forces him to have sex, I think Mira has a point, it should not break the protection.
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Unfortunately, the true love protection can be invalidated by force.
In Turncoat, Madeline threatens to kidnap Justine and use her powers to have her have sex with a random partner so that she can then devour her. Thomas takes this very seriously and proceed to beat the brakes off her, so we know this is a valid threat.
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I was going to say that we did not see it working and Madeline is not a trust source, but you are right, Thomas believed her. And he should know.
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I was going to say that we did not see it working and Madeline is not a trust source, but you are right, Thomas believed her. And he should know.
Or does he? Has this been tested? What is strange is why if a simple sex act with anyone can break the protection why didn't Thomas and Justine think about her having sex with someone else a long time before she finally did in Ghost Story? Or at what point did their love become, "true love"? Supposedly Blood Rites, but didn't they love one another before? Thomas happily fed off of her without being burnt for years.. Did he stop feeding because he was willing to die than kill her, or because it began to burn him?
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Or does he? Has this been tested? What is strange is why if a simple sex act with anyone can break the protection why didn't Thomas and Justine think about her having sex with someone else a long time before she finally did in Ghost Story? Or at what point did their love become, "true love"? Supposedly Blood Rites, but didn't they love one another before? Thomas happily fed off of her without being burnt for years.. Did he stop feeding because he was willing to die than kill her, or because it began to burn him?
As for why didn't they use other sex partners: no idea. Weird.
When did true love begin: presumably during Blood Rites, BUT I honestly don't believe that it is true love. I think after the almost fatal feeding, Nemesis took over completely and whatever was left of the real Justine (also not sure we have ever seen the real Justine at all) died. The whole true love stuff has been faked by Nemesis. And I hope the pregnancy is also fake, because this would be extremely dark.
Faked true love burn is easy. Any wizard could do it, if they work concentrated and precise. Even the shawl Justine gave to Thomas could just be a cursed object which burns WCVs when their skin is exposed to it.
And I also think, just sleeping with anyone else is too easy. There must be something more behind breaking a true love "curse".
And didn't Thomas regularly have joggers in Harry's bed. I assume they had sex there. So if the curse is broken when one of the partners sleeps with someone else, why did Justine still burn Thomas? Or did he stop having sex with others once he became a hairdresser?
Or do BOTH true love partners need to have sex with others?
Will we ever know?
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As for why didn't they use other sex partners: no idea. Weird.
When did true love begin: presumably during Blood Rites, BUT I honestly don't believe that it is true love. I think after the almost fatal feeding, Nemesis took over completely and whatever was left of the real Justine (also not sure we have ever seen the real Justine at all) died. The whole true love stuff has been faked by Nemesis. And I hope the pregnancy is also fake, because this would be extremely dark.
Faked true love burn is easy. Any wizard could do it, if they work concentrated and precise. Even the shawl Justine gave to Thomas could just be a cursed object which burns WCVs when their skin is exposed to it.
And I also think, just sleeping with anyone else is too easy. There must be something more behind breaking a true love "curse".
And didn't Thomas regularly have joggers in Harry's bed. I assume they had sex there. So if the curse is broken when one of the partners sleeps with someone else, why did Justine still burn Thomas? Or did he stop having sex with others once he became a hairdresser?
Or do BOTH true love partners need to have sex with others?
Will we ever know?
He had sexual contact or gave that kind of pleasure to the women who's hair he dressed. Does that count as a sex act? It's what White Court Vamps do, and it is very much about sexual pleasure. And yeah, that's one of my questions as well, is it only the vanilla mortal that can blow the true love protection by being unfaithful? Or is a WCV even capable of feeling true love? Apparently Thomas is, or that may come from his mother. As I said in another post, I wouldn't be shocked if Justine was infested with Nemesis from the very beginning and it was a long term set up for poor Thomas.
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He had sexual contact or gave that kind of pleasure to the women who's hair he dressed. Does that count as a sex act? It's what White Court Vamps do, and it is very much about sexual pleasure. And yeah, that's one of my questions as well, is it only the vanilla mortal that can blow the true love protection by being unfaithful? Or is a WCV even capable of feeling true love?
Based on what we've seen so far, there is no doubt in my mind that WC members are capable, at least in principle, of any human emotion or reaction or experience. They are magically-altered, demon-parasitized human beings. They can be soulgazed, they generate tech bane when they use magic, etc.
Apparently Thomas is, or that may come from his mother. As I said in another post, I wouldn't be shocked if Justine was infested with Nemesis from the very beginning and it was a long term set up for poor Thomas.
The only problem with that intriguingly horrible thought is that Thomas experienced the love burn effect with Justine after what happened in Blood Rites. For that to work, the love has to be mutual. So at least at that point, Justine did love Thomas, whatever else Nemesis might or might not have been engaged in.
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Justine's protections continued even after Thomas was sexually active with others; there were both quick flings (e.g. the jogger he brought back while rooming with Harry) and longer-term but less intense occasions as "Toe-moss" the hairdresser. Thomas' faithfulness doesn't impact Justine's protection.
Presumably, after intimacy with Justine but before he engaged in any sort of erotic intimacy with another party, Thomas himself was protected from other whampires' feeding on (or touching) him.
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The only problem with that intriguingly horrible thought is that Thomas experienced the love burn effect with Justine after what happened in Blood Rites. For that to work, the love has to be mutual. So at least at that point, Justine did love Thomas, whatever else Nemesis might or might not have been engaged in.
Did she? Or can Nemesis mimic true love so that Thomas would truly believe she loved him? Still doesn't answer the question as to why it took years before they figured out that if she simply had a one night stand with somebody they could consummate their true love? He is a White Court Vamp, she has been kine for years, they both know how the protection gig works. I mean, forgive me I don't remember which book, but I remember the scene in a night club, Thomas and Justine were there, she is wearing some kind of rubber suit so he can have his arm around her without burning.. Why the elaborate work around when a meaningless one night stand would do the trick? Years went by between Blood Rites and Ghost Story when we finally see Justine coming home with a girl friend to have sex supposedly in front of Thomas so she and Thomas can then make love? Really? Why did she have to bring her friend home? Couldn't she just have told Thomas? I mean he'd know fairly quickly if her protection was still there. This is also the time when supposedly Harry is dead, but what if through Nemesis, Justine knows he really isn't, that as Winter Knight his star born status will soon be asserting itself in the coming years.. So it's time to begin part two of the plan, set Thomas up for the events in Peace Talks.. Why? Thomas is one of Harry's weaknesses, also divide and distract while they mount an attack at the Gates.
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Did she? Or can Nemesis mimic true love so that Thomas would truly believe she loved him? Still doesn't answer the question as to why it took years before they figured out that if she simply had a one night stand with somebody they could consummate their true love? He is a White Court Vamp, she has been kine for years, they both know how the protection gig works. I mean, forgive me I don't remember which book, but I remember the scene in a night club, Thomas and Justine were there, she is wearing some kind of rubber suit so he can have his arm around her without burning.. Why the elaborate work around when a meaningless one night stand would do the trick? Years went by between Blood Rites and Ghost Story when we finally see Justine coming home with a girl friend to have sex supposedly in front of Thomas so she and Thomas can then make love? Really? Why did she have to bring her friend home? Couldn't she just have told Thomas? I mean he'd know fairly quickly if her protection was still there. This is also the time when supposedly Harry is dead, but what if through Nemesis, Justine knows he really isn't, that as Winter Knight his star born status will soon be asserting itself in the coming years.. So it's time to begin part two of the plan, set Thomas up for the events in Peace Talks.. Why? Thomas is one of Harry's weaknesses, also divide and distract while they mount an attack at the Gates.
If they were truly in love, then they wanted to be faithful to each other. So, there would be no lovers that the others didn't know and approve of. And though it wouldn't be very difficult to arrange, it would still be a pain to have to find a third every time they wanted to have sex. They probably did know that this was a solution but didn't want to resort to it.
I don't remember the random jogger, but Thomas never had intercourse with any of his hair clients and so no physical act there. Jim tends to favor the mechanical over the metaphysical in most of these situations. Harry still loved Susan after hooking up with Luccio, but his protection was broken nonetheless.
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If they were truly in love, then they wanted to be faithful to each other ...
I think the more's of the Whampires -- even whampires in love -- are very different around the issue of being "faithful." It's literally a matter of eating, of survival.
... And though it wouldn't be very difficult to arrange, it would still be a pain to have to find a third every time they wanted to have sex ...
I'm pretty sure it'd be *incredibly* easy for them to set up.
The White Court is chock-full of willing -- in fact, eager! -- mortal partners. $$$ is not an object for them, either. Set up a an apartment next door with 3-4 clued-in models, and most of the time at least one of them is literally just 30 seconds away.
... They probably did know that this was a solution but didn't want to resort to it.
That seems unlikely, tbh. OTOH, I don't have a "likely" seeming alternative to offer.
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I don't remember the random jogger ...
Very early-on in... I don't actually remember which story. It's while Thomas is living with Harry.
But: Harry comes home grouchy, and a cute girl comes out of the shower. Harry says something biting, the girl snaps back... then concludes that Harry is just Thomas' (gay) lover, being jealous. She calls Thomas "very naughty" or somesuch.
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Vincentric said what I want to say.
Justine and Thomas always knew how to break the protection. But they did not want to have sex with other people, they want to be faithful. I think it was in GS that Harry saw the moment Justine says something like "enough, I do not want this anymore, let's break the protection and move on". And I always thought it was a practical, rational decision but now I see it as a red flag of Nemesis. They normally are too emotional and do not want to share their lover with anyone else.
Thomas did not have sex with anyone while the True Love was in, that is why he was always hungry. The hairdresser thing only helped him so much.
I do believe that protection is for each member of the pair separately. I think if Susan (after leaving) have had sex with someone, Harry would still be protected until he began sleeping with Luccio.
I also think whampires are perfectly able to love. I do not think Thomas is that special. It is probably very unusual, and in that sense yes, Thomas is special. But physically, it is possible for any of them.
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Justine and Thomas always knew how to break the protection. But they did not want to have sex with other people, they want to be faithful. I think it was in GS that Harry saw the moment Justine says something like "enough, I do not want this anymore, let's break the protection and move on". And I always thought it was a practical, rational decision but now I see it as a red flag of Nemesis. They normally are too emotional and do not want to share their lover with anyone else.
Thomas did not have sex with anyone while the True Love was in, that is why he was always hungry. The hairdresser thing only helped him so much.
But Thomas was always hungry because he tried to not be what he is, a vampire.. I guess the fall back line for Thomas in this case could be the famous President Clinton quote on whether or not he had sex with M.L., "Depends on what your definition of is, is." No, Thomas while feeding didn't have sex as in the classic sense, but while feeding he was giving sexual pleasure... So was it sex or not?
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Not in the sense that could break the protection. Jim was very clear that it had to be sex (and apparently heterosexual too, because he said something about the potential for creating life).
And Thomas was not hungry by the time he met Harry. He regularly fed from Justine and was ok. It was when the protection kicked that Thomas became hungry because he could not feed from Justine and did not want to cheat on her either. The hair saloon was just a way of survive and be functional, but he was always hungry. He fought every day against temptation and sometimes I feel that is dismissed in the world. In my opinion that makes him one of the strongest characters, at the least in the will department. I suspect that is going to help him inn the future, especially if he ends with a Sword.
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Not in the sense that could break the protection. Jim was very clear that it had to be sex (and apparently heterosexual too, because he said something about the potential for creating life).
And Thomas was not hungry by the time he met Harry. He regularly fed from Justine and was ok. It was when the protection kicked that Thomas became hungry because he could not feed from Justine and did not want to cheat on her either. The hair saloon was just a way of survive and be functional, but he was always hungry. He fought every day against temptation and sometimes I feel that is dismissed in the world. In my opinion that makes him one of the strongest characters, at the least in the will department. I suspect that is going to help him inn the future, especially if he ends with a Sword.
I agree. Thomas' will has my deepest respect. His fight against temptation also weakened him. He was less well fed than other Vampires. I have to think of his way to explain to Harry what it is like, when they run on the beach and he empties Harry's water bottle after Harry has just wettet his tongue with a little drop of water.
Very impressive demonstration. Just imagine being that thirsty and having that full bottle of water but you restrain yourself and just take a little sip, while the rest of the water is still there within your reach. And then doing this over a year. Very impressive.
Now that I think about the sex: the random joggers were at the beginning of Dead Beat when Thomas already lived with Harry for one year. Confirmed by the timeline https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline#sf
During that time, Justine was still at the Raith mansion, recovering from Blood Rites.
I am guessing the (fake) true love magic started after she got better and they started to have sex again. Was this during White Night? If yes, it would be 2 years after Dead Beat.
Thomas moved out at the end of Dead Beat. If I remember correctly, Justine started to be herself again in White Night, when she lead Harry and Carlos to the Raith Deeps. This would also have been the time when she and Thomas started being together again. When did Thomas show Harry the scarf? I'll look it up if I have time and come back to edit.
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Now that I think about the sex: the random joggers were at the beginning of Dead Beat when Thomas already lived with Harry for one year. Confirmed by the timeline https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline#sf
During that time, Justine was still at the Raith mansion, recovering from Blood Rites.
I am guessing the (fake) true love magic started after she got better and they started to have sex again. Was this during White Night? If yes, it would be 2 years after Dead Beat.
I don't think they had sex of any kind from Blood Rites until after that scene in Ghost Story when Justine came home with her lesbian friend, had sex with her, which broke her true love protection. That was the point of that scene once there was true love between them, Thomas couldn't touch Justine without being burnt, so up to that scene no sex between them. That was the point of the scene in the bar or night club where happy Thomas has his arm around Justine which surprises Harry, and they show him she is wearing a special skin tight rubber suit so he really isn't touching her. I don't think I dreamed that scene, but I cannot remember which book it is from.
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You did not dream the rubber suit scene, I remember that too. i do not remember the book.
I also forgot it was a lesbian friend who they use to break Justine's protection. That contradicts what Jim said before, about the potential for life.
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Thinking back, we don't actually know that Thomas has the protection, just that Justine does.
Justine burns Thomas and Madeleine, but Madeleine is not burned by Thomas. After Ghost Story and Cold Days, he regularly visited the Svartalves, so if he had it, it was frequently removed. He certainly does not burn Lara on the trip to Demonreach in Peace Talks. Perhaps the protection does not protect WC vampires.
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Thinking back, we don't actually know that Thomas has the protection, just that Justine does.
Justine burns Thomas and Madeleine, but Madeleine is not burned by Thomas. After Ghost Story and Cold Days, he regularly visited the Svartalves, so if he had it, it was frequently removed. He certainly does not burn Lara on the trip to Demonreach in Peace Talks. Perhaps the protection does not protect WC vampires.
Agreed, we also know if true love happens before the first feeding, the Hunger Demon can be burned out. That was the hope for Inari in Blood Rites. Thomas had his first feeding until death and his demon is engaged, he is a WCV.. It would make sense that once that happens the host shouldn't be able to feel true love again, because why would the parasite want to die once it matures and is feeding.. I know want is a poor word to use, but the parasite/demon depends on the host feeding to survive.. Vamps can feel love, Thomas loved Justine, supposedly true love, and Lara loves her little brother, a different kind of love.. Maybe it is something that superficially sounds cool, but doesn't stand up to logic if you think too deeply about it? Or the reason it doesn't stand up is Justine has never felt true love for Thomas, and it's been a Nemesis set up all along..
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... That contradicts what Jim said before, about the potential for life.
This is a very interesting point.
Did Jim mess up? Or has he dropped a clue?
Or just changed his mind, and retcon'ed the "true love" protection to include same-sex couples?
Maybe future stories will reveal things; or maybe someone could ask a pointed question during an AMA or other Q&A event.
Or maybe we'll wonder 'til the very end, because Jim's an Evil Bastad(tm).
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... If I remember correctly, Justine started to be herself again in White Night, when she lead Harry and Carlos to the Raith Deeps. This would also have been the time when she and Thomas started being together again...
If I recall correctly:
- That was the first time we saw her "being herself again" onscreen, but her self-report was that it had been happening for a while (and she displayed lots of broad awareness of the larger situation, just as if she had largely been compos mentis for a good long time)
- She wasn't yet being with Thomas, but said she expected she'd be able "to go back to her lord" soon.
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... After Ghost Story and Cold Days, he regularly visited the Svartalves, so if he had it, it was frequently removed ...
We know that -- as of the end of Ghost Story -- Thomas & Justine regularly removed the protection (or, if the theory of a Nemesis-fueled pseudo-protection is correct: Justine pretended to remove a protection that was never there).
Does seem kind of odd to anyone else that Thomas would be regularly visiting the Svartalves to sate his Hunger, when he & Justine have a very-workable solution at home...?
Maybe it's just that -- as with Connie Barrowill & Irwin Pounder -- a powerful nonhuman is simply a method he's using to eat deeply & satisfy the Hunger without killing a mortal. But still, something "feels off" to me, in this.
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... That contradicts what Jim said before, about the potential for life.
Also: can you provide a cite?
Not that I doubt you, but I'd like to go read it for more context, other clues, etc.
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We know that -- as of the end of Ghost Story -- Thomas & Justine regularly removed the protection (or, if the theory of a Nemesis-fueled pseudo-protection is correct: Justine pretended to remove a protection that was never there).
Does seem kind of odd to anyone else that Thomas would be regularly visiting the Svartalves to sate his Hunger, when he & Justine have a very-workable solution at home...?
Maybe it's just that -- as with Connie Barrowill & Irwin Pounder -- a powerful nonhuman is simply a method he's using to eat deeply & satisfy the Hunger without killing a mortal. But still, something "feels off" to me, in this.
Convenience probably. The arrangement with the Svartalves removes the need to search for human partners though there's no indication one way or another that they stopped using them. Thomas feeding from a number of sources looks more normal to other WC vampires also, so less threat to Justine from that angle.
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Also: can you provide a cite?
Not that I doubt you, but I'd like to go read it for more context, other clues, etc.
Ok people, I definitely was wrong. And of course I am very, very sorry. In answer to this I've been checking and I found what I quote below. I swear I was not dreaming. I am sure in some moment Jim said the Protection involved the potential for creating life (more or less like the sex magic in the books). But apparently many years ago he said another thing...and I do not if this helps us or not. Personally I am much more confused, because if True Love is, well, you know, just love, then how can it be so easily broken? I don't know, see for yourselves.
Source: https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/
2009 Lexington signing:
Q: What protections are there against the White Court?
A: True love – real true love, not just romantic love – protects only against WC vamps feeding through lust/intimacy.
2010 Lee’s Summit signing
Q: Do you have to have sex in order to have protection from the White Court?
A: No, you don’t have to. It is helpful, though.
Q: Can homosexuals be protected from the White Court?
A: Of course. Any time it is Real Love between equals, there’s the possibility of protection. A parent and child couldn’t be protected because they are not equals.
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Agreed, we also know if true love happens before the first feeding, the Hunger Demon can be burned out. That was the hope for Inari in Blood Rites. Thomas had his first feeding until death and his demon is engaged, he is a WCV.. It would make sense that once that happens the host shouldn't be able to feel true love again, because why would the parasite want to die once it matures and is feeding.. I know want is a poor word to use, but the parasite/demon depends on the host feeding to survive..
The demon can't really prevent the WV from feeling/experiencing love, or anything else. A WV is still a human, with all that that implies.
Vamps can feel love, Thomas loved Justine, supposedly true love, and Lara loves her little brother, a different kind of love.. Maybe it is something that superficially sounds cool, but doesn't stand up to logic if you think too deeply about it?
There's isn't any contradiction.
To produce the protection effect, there has to be genuine, self-abnegating love on both sides. Sexual intercourse transfers energy from one to the other, not just fluids. If that mutual love is present, the energy from the other person will then burn a WC vampire that tries to feed on it...even if that energy came from that WV.
Subsequent sex without love transfers energy as well, which wipes away/drowns out/covers the protective energy, and after that the person is vulnerable again. Note that even if two people are protected after a single encounter, one of them can have sex with someone else and lose the protection, while the other still has it.
Can the personal energy transfer by means other than sex? JB has said yes, at least in theory, but we've only ever seen it work with sex. Apparently even a hug transfers a little energy from person to person, from what Bob has said. Maybe an intense enough love might provide protection from no more than an embrace, but we've never seen it happen.
The fact that Justine burns Thomas indicates that there was indeed mutual love present when they were together. It wouldn't work otherwise.
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Did she? Or can Nemesis mimic true love so that Thomas would truly believe she loved him?
The protection doesn't depend on belief, it depends on the actual presence of mutual Love. Nemesis would have to do more than make Thomas believe it, it would have to be able to produce the burn when a WV tries to feed, to maintain such a deception.
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The protection doesn't depend on belief, it depends on the actual presence of mutual Love. Nemesis would have to do more than make Thomas believe it, it would have to be able to produce the burn when a WV tries to feed, to maintain such a deception.
What makes you think that Nemesis isn't able to maintain the deception.
I believe he can.
@all
True love – real true love, not just romantic love – protects only against WC vamps feeding through lust/intimacy.
Also, I have thought about this concept of true love. When is it true love instead of just love? And does that mean that not every kind of romantic love between equals is true love? What is it then? What is the difference?
Any time it is Real Love between equals, there’s the possibility of protection.
So it is just any real love. But what is it that triggers the protection?
Is it the mutual will to selfless sacrifice oneself? Ok, so what if the will is there but there is no opportunity to act on it? Is there still protection.
The quote only says "the possibility of protection", so not all couples who truly love are protected automatically. There must be a trigger not all couples experience. Otherwise it wouldn't be so rare.
We don't have many true love examples in the books:
#1 Harry twice: Susan and later Murphy.
Susan: Harry was willing to sacrifice himself to safe her in Grave Peril. He went into the Rampires' stronghold to safe her, completely disregarding the consequences.
Murphy: they saved each other's lives several times.
#2 Thomas and Justine: though I honestly doubt , that it is real, because I believe that Nemesis can fake it really well.
#3 the unknown owner of the wedding ring which burned Lara's hand. Story told by Thomas.
Q: Do you have to have sex in order to have protection from the White Court?
A: No, you don’t have to. It is helpful, though.
So what now? :o
The protection can be there without sex. But when having sex with someone else, you can easily break this powerful protection that is so hard to come by. So bad cards for true love couples who prefer swinger club activities, lol.
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The protection doesn't depend on belief, it depends on the actual presence of mutual Love. Nemesis would have to do more than make Thomas believe it, it would have to be able to produce the burn when a WV tries to feed, to maintain such a deception.
I think it would be a mistake to believe that Nemesis isn't capable of that, that's why they are such a threat. Yes, the protection depends on the presence of actual mutual love, but how do you define that exactly? True love has nothing to do with sex.. Sex can be be better with it, but you can enjoy sex without any love at all. Sex is a physical act, true love is an emotional state, one that is quite complicated.
To produce the protection effect, there has to be genuine, self-abnegating love on both sides. Sexual intercourse transfers energy from one to the other, not just fluids. If that mutual love is present, the energy from the other person will then burn a WC vampire that tries to feed on it...even if that energy came from that WV.
I remember reading that even a wedding ring of someone sharing true love will burn a WCV. Again true love doesn't depend on sex! What about unrequited love? One person can truly love another and that love isn't returned. Is that person protected? The emotion is present, so why not?
We don't have many true love examples in the books:
What about Michael and Charity, I'd say they truly love one another.. I think Malcolm and Margaret truly loved one another. I think Gard was truly in love.
So what now? :o
The protection can be there without sex. But when having sex with someone else, you can easily break this powerful protection that is so hard to come by. So bad cards for true love couples who prefer swinger club activities, lol.
Which makes no sense and cheapens the meaning of what true love is.. True love isn't a fragile thing, poor judgement under the influence shouldn't break it.. One can make a mistake, and the partner who truly loves that person can sincerely forgive that mistake.. Is the protection broken in that case?
Also, I have thought about this concept of true love. When is it true love instead of just love? And does that mean that not every kind of romantic love between equals is true love? What is it then? What is the difference?
I think they are intertwined, physical attraction can lead to falling in love. However one can fall out of love as easily as one falls in love, very fragile at this state. Next comes actually being in love, it's stronger, there is commitment there between the couple, often leads to marriage or cohabitation. However while it might lead to true love, it doesn't mean that the couple are in a state of true love. So what is true love? It involves a lot of tolerance for starters on the part of both partners, the ability to see beyond all the faults of the other, to see the good and want to share your soul with the other.. That might be trite crap, but that's my opinion of what true love is for what it's worth.
Ok people, I definitely was wrong. And of course I am very, very sorry. In answer to this I've been checking and I found what I quote below. I swear I was not dreaming. I am sure in some moment Jim said the Protection involved the potential for creating life (more or less like the sex magic in the books). But apparently many years ago he said another thing...and I do not if this helps us or not. Personally I am much more confused, because if True Love is, well, you know, just love, then how can it be so easily broken? I don't know, see for yourselves.
I agree Dina, true love isn't easily broken, not by a bit of unfaithfulness, because true love often defies logic. More confusing, the partner who was unfaithful may lose protection, but should the faithful one, who still might truly love the other lose his or hers?
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What about Michael and Charity, I'd say they truly love one another.. I think Malcolm and Margaret truly loved one another. I think Gard was truly in love.
I agree, I suppose this is true love.
But what I meant to say: there is no evidence in the books that for example Michael and Charity are protected. I mean they are already under protection of the angels.
Did Thomas ever go into their house? I can't remember. Did Thomas ever touch either of them? Maybe I'll put special emphasis on looking for those moments during my next reread.
With Margaret and Malcolm I think it is implied that they were protected from Lord Raith somehow, probably by true love, but again there is no clear evidence in the book. One can just assume.
Also no evidence with Gard and Hendricks. They loved each other, but was it really true love? Or just mutual attraction and admiration? Or just love love, not true love.
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... Nemesis would have to do more than make Thomas believe it, it would have to be able to produce the burn when a WV tries to feed, to maintain such a deception.
This hardly seems insurmountable.
Nemesis is a Walker, one of the most-powerful of all Outsiders.
If Justine is Nemfected, it hardly seems outside Nemesis' power to create some burns when a whampire touches her.
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This hardly seems insurmountable.
Nemesis is a Walker, one of the most-powerful of all Outsiders.
If Justine is Nemfected, it hardly seems outside Nemesis' power to create some burns when a whampire touches her.
Exactly. Or to curse an object to cause burns whenever touched by a vampire.
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... With Margaret and Malcolm I think it is implied that they were protected from Lord Raith somehow, probably by true love, but again there is no clear evidence in the book. One can just assume ...
I think Margaret probably had a very good idea what sorts of magical resources Papa Raith had available; whampire's I think can have minor magical gifts, but cannot be very-potent as wizards (not nearly at the White Council level!).
One of the things Harry has stressed (repeatedly) is: when a WC Wizard knows what they face, they can often prepare an overwhelming counter to that.
Add to that: Margaret LaFey may have had bargains in place to prevent being tracked; if not, she likely arranged them ASAP after leaving Papa Raith! And we know (from Turn Coat, where Morgan bargained with the fae for this) how the Fae can & will make somebody untraceable; I expect Lea (and certainly Mab!) can do the same as Morgan got from Summer.
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Michael has burnt vampires at the party that was Susan's downfall, but I think those were rampires. I do not remember anything about white. I believe Thomas and Michael avoid touched each other when they met. Nevertheless I have a feeling Michael-Charity is not True Love. Nor Malcolm-Margaret. I think (absolutely not proof, just my interpretation) that for True Love you have to give yourself completely to your partner. Charity hid a part of herself to Michael, her magical side. And Margaret, I think, hid even more from Malcolm.
About unrequited love, no, I believe that is not enough. Harry loved Luccio, but she did not love him back. And Harry was not protected.
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I agree, I suppose this is true love.
But what I meant to say: there is no evidence in the books that for example Michael and Charity are protected. I mean they are already under protection of the angels.
Did Thomas ever go into their house? I can't remember. Did Thomas ever touch either of them? Maybe I'll put special emphasis on looking for those moments during my next reread.
With Margaret and Malcolm I think it is implied that they were protected from Lord Raith somehow, probably by true love, but again there is no clear evidence in the book. One can just assume.
Also no evidence with Gard and Hendricks. They loved each other, but was it really true love? Or just mutual attraction and admiration? Or just love love, not true love.
As in where any of the above touched or the attempt to be fed upon? No, no proof of protection on page, but do you need that kind of proof of true love for the above mentioned? Like the Supreme Court Justice said about pornography, "he knew when he saw it.."
Michael has burnt vampires at the party that was Susan's downfall, but I think those were rampires. I do not remember anything about white. I believe Thomas and Michael avoid touched each other when they met. Nevertheless I have a feeling Michael-Charity is not True Love. Nor Malcolm-Margaret. I think (absolutely not proof, just my interpretation) that for True Love you have to give yourself completely to your partner. Charity hid a part of herself to Michael, her magical side. And Margaret, I think, hid even more from Malcolm.
I don't think Charity hid that from Michael, he loved her in spite of it, and she loved him so much she was able to give up magic all together. Something according to Langtree, especially once they've started down the dark magic path is almost impossible to do. Charity by her own admission had started down that dark path, only true love could do such a thing I think. Margaret knew leaving Raith for Malcolm would mean her death at some point, yet she did it and gave up her former ways, I also think true love had something to do with that.
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Of course both couples love each other too much, I just do not think it is True Love with the arbitrary laws in the Dresden Universe. Anyway, it is my personal opinion, nothing in canon.
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Of course both couples love each other too much, I just do not think it is True Love with the arbitrary laws in the Dresden Universe. Anyway, it is my personal opinion, nothing in canon.
You could be right, here is a thought I had, while what Harry felt for Susan was true love, I am not so sure she felt the same way about him. Or what if Harry has no protection now, it is because what he and Murphy felt for one another wasn't really true love? Like I said, the idea of true love protecting one against a WCV and that it very fragile is a cool idea, but if the reader thinks too deeply about it, it doesn't work at all.
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... Or what if Harry has no protection now, it is because what he and Murphy felt for one another wasn't really true love? ...
We know Harry was protected during Peace Talks -- he burned Lara (surprising them both).
AFAIK, we don't know anything about after Rudy killed Murphy.
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... I don't think Charity hid that from Michael ...
I am quite certain that she did.
She was desperate that Harry not tell Michael, or anyone else in her family.
Later -- driving Michael & Molly home from the warehouse where Harry managed to get the Doom levied -- Michael wondered how Molly could have wound up with magic, begins to ask about heritibility, and Harry has to fast-talk Michael to hide Charity's secret.
Now... Michael isn't a stupid man; when it comes to matters supernatural, he is in fact quite clued-in. It's entirely-possible that he realized how important it was to Charity not to have to admit to Michael that she has been a wicked sorceress, and he allowed Charity & Harry to think he hadn't seen through the deception. Or not.
But if he knows -- Charity isn't the one who told Michael.
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We know Harry was protected during Peace Talks -- he burned Lara (surprising them both).
AFAIK, we don't know anything about after Rudy killed Murphy.
I don't remember that.. Do you have the chapter? I don't doubt you, but I want to read for context. And since he hasn't had sexual contact since, no reason why he still wouldn't be protected.
Yeah, Michael would know, one of his angels would have told him, who knows Charity may have been a redemption project all along, love was as bonus.
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It happens when they are rescuing Thomas.
Lara is doubly surprised because Harry wasn't protected when they sparred with staves the day before but burns her after they strip to descend the dumbwaiter shaft and brush elbows. Lara immediately guesses that he was with Murphy and congratulates him. Harry gets a boost because it confirms to him that the thing with Murphy is real.
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It happens when they are rescuing Thomas.
Lara is doubly surprised because Harry wasn't protected when they sparred with staves the day before but burns her after they strip to descend the dumbwaiter shaft and brush elbows. Lara immediately guesses that he was with Murphy and congratulates him. Harry gets a boost because it confirms to him that the thing with Murphy is real.
Thanks
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... And since he hasn't had sexual contact since, no reason why he still wouldn't be protected ...
We don't know that.
The protection may not survive the death of the loved one; or it may... afaik neither WoJ nor canon stories have spoken to the matter.
... Yeah, Michael would know, one of his angels would have told him, who knows Charity may have been a redemption project all along ...
I'm sure Charity's redemption was part of "the plan all along," but also I'm sure the angels would not have told Michael: directly contravening mortal free will (such as violating a deep dark secret) is one of the things that Angels Do Not Do.
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Also, I have thought about this concept of true love. When is it true love instead of just love? And does that mean that not every kind of romantic love between equals is true love?
Yes, that's exactly what it means. JB has said specifically that 'romantic love', meaning the fantasy that the diamond mongers and the advertising industry and the chocolate companies and Hollywood peddles, won't cut it. That's self-centered, it's about living out a fantasy, and about hormones and infatuation.
Which can be misleading because the real thing can of course also include that sort of romantic gesture or symbol, and of course a couple who does have the real thing can also be sexually attracted and hot for each other. But it's ancillary to the core of it.
Is it the mutual will to selfless sacrifice oneself? Ok, so what if the will is there but there is no opportunity to act on it? Is there still protection.
Yes, if the will is genuinely there and there is a sexual interaction to transfer the 'tainted' (from the Hunger POV) energy.
The quote only says "the possibility of protection", so not all couples who truly love are protected automatically. There must be a trigger not all couples experience. Otherwise it wouldn't be so rare.
It's not so rare as all that. It isn't necessarily common, but it's not that 1 in a million ever experience, either. It's more common in couples who have been together for years than in newlyweds, more common in older people than younger, but it's not vanishingly rare.
The protection can be there without sex. But when having sex with someone else, you can easily break this powerful protection that is so hard to come by. So bad cards for true love couples who prefer swinger club activities, lol.
Yes. Absolutely yes.
In the Dresdenverse, there is no such thing as casual sex. It always transfers some soul-energy, some magical essence, along with genetic fluids. Even the most 'slam bam thank you ma'am' encounter does that. It may not always matter very much, but it most certainly can.
Harry's hesitation about casual sexual encounters saved his life in White Night, because he was still shielded by Susan even after four years.
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I agree, I suppose this is true love.
But what I meant to say: there is no evidence in the books that for example Michael and Charity are protected. I mean they are already under protection of the angels.
Did Thomas ever go into their house? I can't remember. Did Thomas ever touch either of them? Maybe I'll put special emphasis on looking for those moments during my next reread.
Thomas wouldn't prove anything either way. Neither would Lara. Madeline would, if she wasn't dead.
Remember what Thomas explained to Harry about how that works back in Turn Coat: the Hunger demon tries to feed every time there's flesh-to-flesh physical contact between a White Vampire and another human being (including another White Vampire!). But most WVs, most of the time, can restrain the Hunger so the attempt is stopped. Thomas' Hunger tries to feed a little from Harry every time they do that knuckle-bump move, for ex. But it's easy for Thomas to restrain the effect there.
I said Madeline would prove something touching Michael/Charity because as Thomas noted, she had so little self-discipline that she could never restrain her Hunger, she let it try to feed every time she touched someone, so she always triggered any Protection she encountered. But Madeline is suffering from a case of terminal death.
The burn effect kicks in when the Hunger actually begins to feed. Thomas gets burned by Justine because his Hunger wants to eat her so bad he can't restrain it with her. But he could touch Charity or Michael and it would be fine unless for some demented reason he tried to feed, then I'm pretty sure zap. (Even assuming the angels let things go that far.) Lara, likewise, could shake hands with Michael or Protected Harry and be fine as long as her Hunger was on the leash.
Remember White Night. Harry and Lara were actualy making out, so Harry could use the emotional energy to drive a spell. This had gone on for a couple of minutes, but she only got burned when her Hunger slipped the leash for a moment, then Susan's energy burned Lara's mouth.
It's the energy that burns the WV when they try to feed on it, if it's been 'tainted'.
That's why sex (or according to JB, other theoretical ways) is necessary for the protection. John and Jane might love each other with the deepest of devotion, fully prepared to die for the other if need be, but if there's never been sufficient physical contact to transfer the 'tainted' energy, they aren't protected because that taint isn't there.
It's not about 'fair'.
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I agree Dina, true love isn't easily broken, not by a bit of unfaithfulness, because true love often defies logic. More confusing, the partner who was unfaithful may lose protection, but should the faithful one, who still might truly love the other lose his or hers?
They don't.
If John and Jane Doe are Protected by their mutual love and active sexual life, and Jane for whatever reason has a one night stand that she regrets on a business trip...Jane is now vulnerable, John is still protected. Again, that's not a reward, just How It Works. If he stays celibate for the rest of his life, he's Protected for the rest of his life, unless something else wipes it away.
Does it matter if Jane cheated because she was drunk and not thinking straight? Nope. Does the fact that John is sometimes a complete jerk to other people undo his protection? Nope. It's not about fairness or justice or morality.
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I think it would be a mistake to believe that Nemesis isn't capable of that, that's why they are such a threat.
This hardly seems insurmountable.
Nemesis is a Walker, one of the most-powerful of all Outsiders.
If Justine is Nemfected, it hardly seems outside Nemesis' power to create some burns when a whampire touches her.
It's more than just touching. Nemesis would have to initiate the burn when, and only when, a WV tries to feed on her. Which means Nemesis would have to accurately assess the mental state and intentions of every WV that touched Justine, to know whether the contact was a feeding attempt or not. If Lara accidentally brushes Justine's arm in the course of a day, and kept her Hunger leashed (as she usually does) and gets burned anyway...
As for whether Nemesis can do that...well, yeah, maybe it can. We don't have any definite data to say it can't. But we also don't have any definite data in the other direction. It's pure guesswork.
Here's where Occam's Razor cuts usefully.
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I remember reading that even a wedding ring of someone sharing true love will burn a WCV. Again true love doesn't depend on sex!
But contact is required, as far as we know. The same tainted energy then spreads into the object, if it's a symbol of that Love. But it can't be just any object, it has to somehow symbolize the love in question.
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Does it matter if Jane cheated because she was drunk and not thinking straight? Nope. Does the fact that John is sometimes a complete jerk to other people undo his protection? Nope. It's not about fairness or justice or morality.
I think it does matter, if Jane was drunk, she cannot be held responsible fully for what happened. Cheating on someone is a choice..
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I think it does matter, if Jane was drunk, she cannot be held responsible fully for what happened. Cheating on someone is a choice..
But it's not about morality or choice or responsibility. Before she cheated, John's energy lay over her and made her toxic to the White Court Hunger. After sex with someone else, either that energy is wiped away or diluted out or covered over, and a WV is free to feed on her. The question is not whether she was responsible or not. It's whether the unloving sex happened to wipe out the protection.
Again, it's no different than if she got pregnant while engaged in drunken sex that she regrets. Yeah, she was drunk. Yeah, she desperately wishes she had been faithful, and fully intends to stay faithful from now on. But she's still pregnant and John is still not the father.
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But it's not about morality or choice or responsibility. Before she cheated, John's energy lay over her and made her toxic to the White Court Hunger. After sex with someone else, either that energy is wiped away or diluted out or covered over, and a WV is free to feed on her. The question is not whether she was responsible or not. It's whether the unloving sex happened to wipe out the protection.
If that be the case, then the concept of true love is BS isn't it? Already there has been some debate on whether Michael/Charity, Malcolm/Margaret etc are or aren't cases for true love. How do you define the difference between mere monogamy [not true love,] and monogamy that is true love? It isn't about morality, that's not what I am talking about, morality has nothing to do with it, but emotion has everything to do with it. The White Court Demon feeds off of emotion, true love is an emotion, an emotion so strong that it burns the demon and it's host. In your own definition of what blows the protection, you call it cheating.. Calling it cheating implies a moral judgement of infidelity, it is also an emotional choice to have sexual contact with another.. It's that emotional choice in my opinion that blows the protection, not the physical sex itself. Rape, or accidental sex when one isn't in a state to make a responsible emotional choice to have it, shouldn't break the protection, because the emotions of that person for his or her beloved partner remains the same.
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If that be the case, then the concept of true love is BS isn't it? Already there has been some debate on whether Michael/Charity, Malcolm/Margaret etc are or aren't cases for true love. How do you define the difference between mere monogamy [not true love,] and monogamy that is true love? It isn't about morality, that's not what I am talking about, morality has nothing to do with it, but emotion has everything to do with it. The White Court Demon feeds off of emotion, true love is an emotion, an emotion so strong that it burns the demon and it's host. In your own definition of what blows the protection, you call it cheating.. Calling it cheating implies a moral judgement of infidelity, it is also an emotional choice to have sexual contact with another.. It's that emotional choice in my opinion that blows the protection, not the physical sex itself. Rape, or accidental sex when one isn't in a state to make a responsible emotional choice to have it, shouldn't break the protection, because the emotions of that person for his or her beloved partner remains the same.
It's a combination of emotion and mechanics though. The protection is a two-part thing that needs both to work.
To establish the protection, you have to be in love and then have sex with that loved one. From then on, as long as you are faithful to each other physically the protection is up. It will not expire as long as the love lasts, but sex with another, willing or unwilling, breaks the protection. It can then be rebuilt by having sex with the loved one again. It can be a bug or a feature but that's entirely dependent on circumstances.
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It's a combination of emotion and mechanics though. The protection is a two-part thing that needs both to work.
To establish the protection, you have to be in love and then have sex with that loved one. From then on, as long as you are faithful to each other physically the protection is up. It will not expire as long as the love lasts, but sex with another, willing or unwilling, breaks the protection. It can then be rebuilt by having sex with the loved one again. It can be a bug or a feature but that's entirely dependent on circumstances.
It still doesn't answer the question about what is the difference between ordinary love, not protected, and true love, protected.. I can see the first easily broken, but not the second, human emotions just don't work that way.
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It still doesn't answer the question about what is the difference between ordinary love, not protected, and true love, protected.. I can see the first easily broken, but not the second, human emotions just don't work that way.
What is or isn't True Love is a question for Jim. So far, the protection has only been broken through the mechanical component of sex. We've never seen a situation of falling out of love breaking it
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What is or isn't True Love is a question for Jim. So far, the protection has only been broken through the mechanical component of sex. We've never seen a situation of falling out of love breaking it
Which is weird, how do you fall out of true love? I wonder if anyone has ever asked Jim that? That's why I have said as a reader that while on the page the concept of true love burning the Hunger Demon, it's best not to over think it because a lot of aspects of it doesn't really make sense.
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Which is weird, how do you fall out of true love? I wonder if anyone has ever asked Jim that? That's why I have said as a reader that while on the page the concept of true love burning the Hunger Demon, it's best not to over think it because a lot of aspects of it doesn't really make sense.
A fundamental betrayal that destroys trust would be my best guess. I don't think Harry and Susan could have renewed their relationship had she survived Changes. Keeping Maggie a secret, hurt Harry deeply and he sais that they couldn't get past that.
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But it's not about morality or choice or responsibility. Before she cheated, John's energy lay over her and made her toxic to the White Court Hunger. After sex with someone else, either that energy is wiped away or diluted out or covered over, and a WV is free to feed on her. The question is not whether she was responsible or not. It's whether the unloving sex happened to wipe out the protection.
-- LordDresden2
If that be the case, then the concept of true love is BS isn't it?
No. That doesn't even make sense.
Already there has been some debate on whether Michael/Charity, Malcolm/Margaret etc are or aren't cases for true love. How do you define the difference between mere monogamy [not true love,] and monogamy that is true love? It isn't about morality, that's not what I am talking about, morality has nothing to do with it, but emotion has everything to do with it. The White Court Demon feeds off of emotion, true love is an emotion, an emotion so strong that it burns the demon and it's host. In your own definition of what blows the protection, you call it cheating.. Calling it cheating implies a moral judgement of infidelity, it is also an emotional choice to have sexual contact with another.. It's that emotional choice in my opinion that blows the protection, not the physical sex itself. Rape, or accidental sex when one isn't in a state to make a responsible emotional choice to have it, shouldn't break the protection, because the emotions of that person for his or her beloved partner remains the same.
But it does break the protection, because the protection is not about morality.
The protection is caused by love, but it is not love in itself. The protection can remain if the love has ceased, and the love can still exist but the protection be wiped away, because after the protection is created, they are two different things.
The protection is created by the combination of love and sexual interaction at a specific moment. The mutual love must exist at that time, and it creates the protection by tainting the energy that is exchanged between the lovers. (I use the word 'taint' from the White Court pov.)
Once created, the protection exists until wiped away, even if the love ceases. Love created the protection, but the protection is not the love in itself. Destroying the protection is not destroying the love that created it.
That's why Harry was still protected, even after Susan died. Their love had ceased (at least in any earthly mortal sense), but the protection still existed, because the protection, once created, was a separate thing. Likewise, the protection created by genuine love in that moment can endure, even if something happens to cause that love to cease afterward, because they are two different things after that moment.
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It still doesn't answer the question about what is the difference between ordinary love, not protected, and true love, protected.. I can see the first easily broken, but not the second, human emotions just don't work that way.
You're confusing the emotions with the protection effect created by the emotions. They aren't the same thing after the effect is created.
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A fundamental betrayal that destroys trust would be my best guess. I don't think Harry and Susan could have renewed their relationship had she survived Changes. Keeping Maggie a secret, hurt Harry deeply and he sais that they couldn't get past that.
Or a long separation, and different life experiences turning you into different people could potentially do it. Being forced by conflicting moral/religious beliefs to take opposite sides on some heartfelt matter might do it.
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You're confusing the emotions with the protection effect created by the emotions. They aren't the same thing after the effect is created.
Aren't they? How so? The protection is created by the emotion> The protection remains as long as the emotion remains.. The protection isn't something that exists in a vacuum, it is fed by the emotion of true love. It's the very emotion that is toxic to the Hunger Demon... The Hunger Demon is allergic to true love, if it comes in contact with it during the vulnerable time before it's first heavy feeding until death, it goes into severe anaphylactic shock and burns to death.. The emotion feedings sustain it, however it remains allergic to the true love emotion, so sensitive to it that contact even with an object associated with the person in true love can cause it to break out in a rash, or in this case make the host vampire get burned from contact.
No. That doesn't even make sense.
Oh it does, if it includes rape, which is an act of violence done through sex.. The rape victim still feels the emotion of true love for whomever.. The emotion that the Hunger Demon is allergic to, as long as it remains, the protection should remain..
But it does break the protection, because the protection is not about morality.
I never said it had anything to do with morality, it doesn't.. You can call it morality, but it is about human emotions. You, yourself speak about breaking the protection in moralistic terms when you use the term, "cheating."
The protection is caused by love, but it is not love in itself. The protection can remain if the love has ceased, and the love can still exist but the protection be wiped away, because after the protection is created, they are two different things.
??? Protection is caused by love, but not love in of itself? Really? No, something else is going on here, people make love all of the time, for many reasons, but very few of them experience true love. Or the kind of true love that the Hunger Demon is allergic to. Harry never ceased to love Susan even when she was absent all of those years, thus he was protected. When he met Luccio he was ready to move on, he did, he was no longer held back by the emotion he had felt for Susan. Thus he lost his protection. It is also possible that his protection continued even if Susan no loved him after she left for South America.
The protection is created by the combination of love and sexual interaction at a specific moment. The mutual love must exist at that time, and it creates the protection by tainting the energy that is exchanged between the lovers. (I use the word 'taint' from the White Court pov.)
There is a problem there though, Harry still loved Susan, but at the time that Lara was burned from contact with him, there was a good chance that Susan had already moved on emotionally from him..
Once created, the protection exists until wiped away, even if the love ceases. Love created the protection, but the protection is not the love in itself. Destroying the protection is not destroying the love that created it.
Really? Seems to me as long as the true love exists it's like getting a booster shot. As long as the true love emotion is felt by the would be victim, the Hunger Demon is going to have an allergic reaction and the host vampire is going to feel the burn.
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... Nemesis would have to initiate the burn when, and only when, a WV tries to feed on her. Which means Nemesis would have to accurately assess the mental state and intentions of every WV that touched Justine, to know whether the contact was a feeding attempt or not. If Lara accidentally brushes Justine's arm in the course of a day, and kept her Hunger leashed (as she usually does) and gets burned anyway...
As for whether Nemesis can do that...well, yeah, maybe it can. We don't have any definite data to say it can't. But we also don't have any definite data in the other direction. It's pure guesswork.
Here's where Occam's Razor cuts usefully.
Given that "feeding" is -- as you say -- explicitly at attempt to drain energy from the victim, Nemesis has NO NEED to "assess the mental state and intentions" of the whampire.
"Was my host psychically assaulted during that contact" is a very simple test; that test + an automatic "if so, burn whoever attempted the assault" both seem well within the power of a Walker.
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Given that "feeding" is -- as you say -- explicitly at attempt to drain energy from the victim, Nemesis has NO NEED to "assess the mental state and intentions" of the whampire.
"Was my host psychically assaulted during that contact" is a very simple test, and an automatic "if so, burn whoever attempted the assault" both seem well within the power of a Walker.
Indeed!
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Aren't they? How so? The protection is created by the emotion> The protection remains as long as the emotion remains..
No. The protection remains as long as nothing wipes it away. Once created, it exists independently. Even if the love dies between the principals, the protection remains until it is undone.
The protection isn't something that exists in a vacuum, it is fed by the emotion of true love.
Yes, in the moment of the sexual act. Then it exists separately.
Oh it does, if it includes rape, which is an act of violence done through sex..
Having been thinking about this since I posted yesterday, I'm not sure rape would undo it. There are two reasons for that, one theoretical and one practical. The theory reason is that we don't know if that exchange of soul-energy happens in non-consensual sex, AFAIK JB has never said either way. If it didn't, the original protection would probably endure.
The practical reason is that a White Vampire could then overcome the protection either by restraining his/her Hunger longer enough to carry out a rape, or assigning a minion to do it, or hiring it done, and then feed. We've never seen or heard of anybody doing that that I recall, so possibly it wouldn't work.
??? Protection is caused by love, but not love in of itself? Really? No, something else is going on here, people make love all of the time, for many reasons, but very few of them experience true love. Or the kind of true love that the Hunger Demon is allergic to. Harry never ceased to love Susan even when she was absent all of those years, thus he was protected.
No. Harry's love for Susan cannot protect him, it can only protect Susan. It's Susan's love for Harry that protects him. It's the other-focus of love, the prioritization of the other over oneself, that produces the protection. You can't shield yourself, at least not that way.
When he met Luccio he was ready to move on, he did, he was no longer held back by the emotion he had felt for Susan. Thus he lost his protection.
No, he lost his protection when he had sex with Luccio. With or without his continuing love for Susan, that would undo the protection, because Susan's protective energy would no longer be present in Harry. It would be replaced by Stacy's, and she doesn't love him, so it doesn't make his own energy poisonous to WVs.
It is also possible that his protection continued even if Susan no loved him after she left for South America.
It certainly did. He had it up until Luccio.
There is a problem there though, Harry still loved Susan, but at the time that Lara was burned from contact with him, there was a good chance that Susan had already moved on emotionally from him.. Really? Seems to me as long as the true love exists it's like getting a booster shot.
Not unless they had sex in the meantime. Otherwise there's no way for the 'booster shot' to reach the protectee.
As long as the true love emotion is felt by the would be victim, the Hunger Demon is going to have an allergic reaction and the host vampire is going to feel the burn.
Nope. Not unless he or she hasn't had sex with someone else in the meantime. Otherwise he or she is going to be vampire chow.
Remember, the key to the protection is the soul-energy transferred during sex (and other times in theory according to JB). Normally, it doesn't matter to a WV, but if it's tainted with Love. It makes the food poisonous. That energy has to be present to provide the protection. It has to get from one person to the other, and sex is the only route we've seen.
It's not just the emotion and will by themselves, it's the energy tained by them. That energy remains in place, once transferred, until replaced. But if it gets replaced, it's gone.
The energy transfers with any sex, but it's only a problem for the WVs if its tainted by love at the time of the transfer.
Although, I do recall Lara mentioning that sexual virgins are especially appealing to WVs. That might be related to the absence of any interfering presence on the 'fresh food'.
The protection will last for life, if it's not removed, regardless of the status of the relationship or the emotions after it's created. Likewise, it can be removed regardless of the status of those things afterward.
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What exactly does JB say on the subject? Where are the WOJs?
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What exactly does JB say on the subject? Where are the WOJs?
I think Mira is right, @LordDresden2 -- you're asserting quite a few things as "fact" that (as best I remember) aren't overtly stated in the books' canon or in WoJ's.
I don't think everything Jim has "implied" to be true in the Dresdenverse actually is true... And so conclusions from implications seem dubious in the extreme.
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I am a tad confused here. I always thought that the love one feels is the thing that protects one (after it clicked with a sexual act). But that is not right. We know Harry realized Luccio did not love him when he realized HE was not protected. So it seems LordDresden2 is right, that is the love of your partner which protects you. But I do not think once established the protections lasts pretty much for ever (except sex with other people breaks it). I think it only lasts while you still keep your love. In my opinion, if Harry had stopped loving Susan, his protection would have disappeared, even if Harry had not had sex with other person. Sex with Luccio broke it. And then, sex with Murphy restored it and, I think, it is still happening, because Harry still loves him. But I guess we will have to wait and see.
Also, in case anyone is interested, I have a new theory about how Harry can stop being the WK. It is not my favourite theory but it is a plausible one. Murphy will be back in some way that NOBODY will recognize her. She will be involved in the BAT and, for some reason, she will crossed Mab. Mab will order Harry to take her down, thus breaking their deal of not ordering Harry to lay a hand on someone he loved.
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I am a tad confused here. I always thought that the love one feels is the thing that protects one (after it clicked with a sexual act). But that is not right. We know Harry realized Luccio did not love him when he realized HE was not protected. So it seems LordDresden2 is right, that is the love of your partner which protects you. But I do not think once established the protections lasts pretty much for ever (except sex with other people breaks it). I think it only lasts while you still keep your love. In my opinion, if Harry had stopped loving Susan, his protection would have disappeared, even if Harry had not had sex with other person.
I strongly suspect Harry stopped loving Susan after he discovered she had hidden Maggie's existence from him.
But the protection, once formed, isn't in the emotions of the protected, it's in their life-energy. It's like a suit of armor the other person wrapped around them. Until it's destroyed/removed/whatever it is that happens, it's there.
Inanimate objects can't love in themselves, but they can be wrapped in that same energy if they become a symbol of mutual love, and it'll burn a WV, as witness Lara's scared hand. (I still wonder if that wedding ring in question might not have been hers, when she was younger.)
Also, in case anyone is interested, I have a new theory about how Harry can stop being the WK. It is not my favourite theory but it is a plausible one. Murphy will be back in some way that NOBODY will recognize her. She will be involved in the BAT and, for some reason, she will crossed Mab. Mab will order Harry to take her down, thus breaking their deal of not ordering Harry to lay a hand on someone he loved.
I could almost imagine that happening, esp. if Mab did it on purpose to produce just exactly that result. On one level, I'm not sure Mab CAN knowingly break a deal...but then again, is Valkyrie-Murphy Murphy? Or is it like Odin/Santa? Fae Law hinges on technicalities and 'from a certain point of view', after all.
I don't think it's an accident, though, that Mab told Harry once that he was the most promising knight she had had since Tam Lin, or words to that effect. The interesting thing about that is that the story of Tam Lin is about someone who escapes from the control of the Sidhe.
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I think Mira is right, @LordDresden2 -- you're asserting quite a few things as "fact" that (as best I remember) aren't overtly stated in the books' canon or in WoJ's.
I don't think everything Jim has "implied" to be true in the Dresdenverse actually is true... And so conclusions from implications seem dubious in the extreme.
Most of what I said was stated outright in either Blood Rites, White Night, or Turn Coat. Granted, it's stated by characters in story, so it's always possible they're wrong or incomplete, but it's coming from people in a position to know.
It's true that nobody has ever said the protection is eternal, but nobody has ever said, or implied, that it isn't, unless it gets wiped away. So yeah, maybe it might wear off eventually with time or something, but there's no more evidence for that than against it.
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Most of what I said was stated outright in either Blood Rites, White Night, or Turn Coat. Granted, it's stated by characters in story, so it's always possible they're wrong or incomplete, but it's coming from people in a position to know.
It's true that nobody has ever said the protection is eternal, but nobody has ever said, or implied, that it isn't, unless it gets wiped away. So yeah, maybe it might wear off eventually with time or something, but there's no more evidence for that than against it.
No, it isn't stated outright in those books, it's your read of what is stated in those books. Some of us read what was said differently, and what is said is just ambiguous enough that there is truth in both. The author in a long series has to leave some wiggle room.