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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: OutsideIn on March 18, 2024, 11:30:08 AM
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Listens
If Star Borns are so important why is listens in the field life at risk. Listens even used his own value in leverage for his life with Ethnic...
Starborns seem to be dwindling...
Confirmed Starborns?
Harry
Elaine (unless months separation is enough)
Listens
Drakul
....?
And how many does the council have since they've been trying to eliminate Harry?
And what does Listens know about it, he seems to know something...
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There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders.
— LASH TO HARRY DRESDEN
"Child of the Stars" HWWB
Lea said HWWB was trying to "mold" Harry
Every 666 years "mark of the beast"/man
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You don't get to be the best without some practical experience. You can train to a very high level, but you still want some actual on the job training. Listen is in the field just like Harry, because they need to be used to these types of situations or they won't be ready at the ultimate moment.
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You don't get to be the best without some practical experience. You can train to a very high level, but you still want some actual on the job training. Listen is in the field just like Harry, because they need to be used to these types of situations or they won't be ready at the ultimate moment.
Harry has more or less been tested since he was sixteen.
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Harry has more or less been tested since he was sixteen.
And according to Mab, who was around for the last Stars and Stones, he's just now rounding into shape. Listen has been the point man for the Formor in Chicago, so he has a similar role. Near death experiences caused by their given assignments are pretty common for both of them. Perhaps the "forged in fire" training is the only way to get the Starborn ready for the big event.
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Harry has more or less been tested since he was sixteen.
He must have gone through many difficult trials
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He must have gone through many difficult trials
Yeah, we have no clue as to what or whom shaped Listen or Drakul to make them what they are today. Again, I think it goes back to the guy that Margaret chose to be the father of her starborn child, Malcolm. That's why again and again, it is mentioned that Harry inherited his father's good heart. That sets Harry apart for the other two known starborns, and could be the main reason why the early attempts by Justin etc failed to mold him. If I remember correctly it wasn't until she met and fell in love with Malcolm did Margaret decide to conceive a starborn child.
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... Star Borns ...
Elaine (unless months separation is enough)
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Elaine confirmed per WoJ to have potential to be a starborn.
Months (even days) of separation is, I think, too much: our "prospective starborns" list is only a few long, after all... but with over 10 million births per month worldwide, we'd be swimming in starborns if the window/potential is open for multiple months.
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Elaine confirmed per WoJ to have potential to be a starborn.
Months (even days) of separation is, I think, too much: our "prospective starborns" list is only a few long, after all... but with over 10 million births per month worldwide, we'd be swimming in starborns if the window/potential is open for multiple months.
Potential isn't the same as is, not to say she couldn't be, but it may be a tease like both Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom both potentially fit the prophecy to be the one to take down Voldemort.
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Potential isn't the same as is, not to say she couldn't be, but it may be a tease like both Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom both potentially fit the prophecy to be the one to take down Voldemort.
Except that being a Starborn isn't a unique & singular thing, a "chosen one" (emphasis on one) of prophesy: we already know there are others wandering round the Dresdenverse.
For reference, the WoJ specifically says:
Q: Is Elaine another candidate to wield power over Outsiders (the way Harry supposedly is)?
A: Yes. There’s a reason Justin picked the two of them.
You're correct, this doesn't pin down Elaine as absolutely a Starborn; but it is very-strongly implied here (unless Jim's channeling his "inner Mab" to weasel some misleading implications into the fandom... an undeniable possibility!)
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[Except that being a Starborn isn't a unique & singular thing, a "chosen one" (emphasis on one) of prophesy: we already know there are others wandering round the Dresdenverse.
However it is rare.. Also in my opinion Harry will have qualities that will set him apart from other star born.
You're correct, this doesn't pin down Elaine as absolutely a Starborn; but it is very-strongly implied here (unless Jim's channeling his "inner Mab" to weasel some misleading implications into the fandom... an undeniable possibility!)
Weaseling indeed.. Why Justin picked the two of them can mean both could be star born.. Or since both have some of the right aliments of the stars, with two tickets he increased his chances of winning the star born lottery..
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... can mean both could be star born.. Or since both have some of the right aliments of the stars, with two tickets he increased his chances of winning the star born lottery..
As I so often do, I'll chant the magic words, "I don't think we have enough information to be sure."
My best surmise is that Justin had no way to be certain, by himself... But maybe Mab does? Maybe Justin bought "two wizard-children, Starborn" from the fae.
Or maybe the Outsiders themselves know? Harry believes Justin summoned HWWBehind, and if that's correct, Justin could have been following Outsider info-sources.
Or, as you say, maybe he was just playing Starborn Lotto. Birth certificates would list date&time of birth.
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Or maybe the Outsiders themselves know? Harry believes Justin summoned HWWBehind, and if that's correct, Justin could have been following Outsider info-sources.
My memory of Harry's flashback provided by Lea in Ghost Story is fuzzy, but if I remember it correctly Justin didn't summon HWWBehind. So in that case he may have been going for the star born lottery..
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As I so often do, I'll chant the magic words, "I don't think we have enough information to be sure."
My best surmise is that Justin had no way to be certain, by himself... But maybe Mab does? Maybe Justin bought "two wizard-children, Starborn" from the fae.
Or maybe the Outsiders themselves know? Harry believes Justin summoned HWWBehind, and if that's correct, Justin could have been following Outsider info-sources.
Or, as you say, maybe he was just playing Starborn Lotto. Birth certificates would list date&time of birth.
I think that's actually a key question. We know from word of JB that the various powers who might be looking for Harry, such as Ebenezar, as well as less well-intentioned folk, lost track after Margaret died, but we've never been told how or why. It might party be Lea, she might have been working to hide and protect Malcolm and Harry in secret, but I suspect there's more to it than that.
So the question of how they came to Justin's attention may be a really important one.
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So the question of how they came to Justin's attention may be a really important one.
Very much so, a possible explanation is Justin still had connection with the Wardens, so would get intelligence of awaking talent in some kids.. However that doesn't work because we know from Proven Guilty that most talented kids fall through the cracks. So who knows? A very important question indeed.
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I think that's actually a key question. We know from word of JB that the various powers who might be looking for Harry, such as Ebenezar, as well as less well-intentioned folk, lost track after Margaret died, but we've never been told how or why. It might party be Lea, she might have been working to hide and protect Malcolm and Harry in secret, but I suspect there's more to it than that.
So the question of how they came to Justin's attention may be a really important one.
I think the element where Morgan used his Summer Squire "favor" to become un-trackable was a hint from Jim: Harry vanished completely via Faerie magic; my guess is that it was part of Maggie-Sr's bargain(s) with Lea and/or Mab.
As Harry has noted, an incautiously-phrased "protect me" bargain with the fae can mean being stuffed into a faerie prison (and ironically: Harry himself then "protected" his own brother by stuffing him (with accute torture) into Occult SuperMax prison... Jim has a twisted sense of humor). Mab made sure none of the "interested parties" could find Harry. I WAG that it was Harry being born -- separated from his mother -- that allowed Raith's curse to target & kill her.
I think Mab & her handmaiden were very involved, from the beginning.
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As Harry has noted, an incautiously-phrased "protect me" bargain with the fae can mean being stuffed into a faerie prison (and ironically: Harry himself then "protected" his own brother by stuffing him (with accute torture) into Occult SuperMax prison... Jim has a twisted sense of humor). Mab made sure none of the "interested parties" could find Harry. I WAG that it was Harry being born -- separated from his mother -- that allowed Raith's curse to target & kill her.
That sounds way harsher than it should, in my opinion. I think it was the best of some bad alternatives given the crime that Thomas committed. Thomas was dying, short of finding a willing victim to feed him, putting him in the prison halted that. It also may have placated the Stavaelves somewhat if events hadn't blown up due to other events. Thomas wasn't going to survive where he was until his case could fully be investigated and a plea made, this gave him a chance, small, but a chance.. No, Harry didn't coldly "stuff" Thomas in prison where he is forced to relive his crimes, it was about all Harry could do for him, and as Warden of Demonreach, was able to do.
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That sounds way harsher than it should, in my opinion ...
It's harsh, yes. But simply factual.
It's also quite ironic that Harry jailed his brother to keep him safe... after specifically taking great care not to let the fae do exactly that to him!
... I think it was the best of some bad alternatives ... this gave him a chance, small, but a chance ...
This is also correct, IMHO.
Harry did do something "harsh" with Thomas... but not nearly as harsh as letting him get killed!
... No, Harry didn't coldly "stuff" Thomas in prison ...
Oh, I never said it was "cold" (in the sense of unfeeling).
But he did it... he did it unhesitatingly, despite knowing he was about to subject his own brother to intense torment. You can call that "cold," from a certain point of view... but if it was "cold" it was only that way by suppressing his anger and pain; to "coldly" do what needed doing, despite the costs.
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It's harsh, yes. But simply factual.
It's also quite ironic that Harry jailed his brother to keep him safe... after specifically taking great care not to let the fae do exactly that to him!
So what alternatives did Harry have here? Thomas was dying from the beating he had received. Most likely he would have either died in prison or be executed. This kept him alive, not in great shape maybe, but alive. Doesn't matter what Harry let or didn't let the fae do to him, he managed to avoid it.. Maybe Thomas should have thought things through a bit more before hand? But he didn't.
Oh, I never said it was "cold" (in the sense of unfeeling).
But he did it... he did it unhesitatingly, despite knowing he was about to subject his own brother to intense torment. You can call that "cold," from a certain point of view... but if it was "cold" it was only that way by suppressing his anger and pain; to "coldly" do what needed doing, despite the costs.
When you use verbs like "stuffed" the implication is there that it was coldly or unfeelingly done.. Words matter. No, considering the alternatives Harry didn't hesitate. And yes, subjecting Thomas to torment, but undeserved torment? Thomas has murdered many to satisfy his hunger demon, there is a price to be paid for that.
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When you use verbs like "stuffed" the implication is there that it was coldly or unfeelingly done.. Words matter ...
Words also have regional variation.
Where I live, "stuffed" carries more the implication of something done hastily.
That haste may even imply that you feel very strongly... but that isn't inherent, it comes from the context of use.
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Words also have regional variation.
Where I live, "stuffed" carries more the implication of something done hastily.
That haste may even imply that you feel very strongly... but that isn't inherent, it comes from the context of use.
Now it really doesn't apply, because yes, it was done quickly, but not thoughtlessly.