ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: prince lotore on February 09, 2024, 06:33:33 PM
-
I was rereading the series and it seems to me that Carlos is no longer Harry's friend. Carlos knows that harry is "working the problem" of the black council from the other side but is constantly suspicious of him. He puts a tracker on harry then gets Harry's only other friends that are wizards to accuse him of being disloyal. The whole time giving the Morgan line if you have nothing to hide let me interrogate you until I believe you. When Harry needs to talk to people to prevent from being thrown out of the council Carlos puts him on a security detail so he can't. And when Harry asks where this is coming from he is told Anastasia. But if he switched sides to team merlin after the beating that Molly gave him it could be part of a plan to isolate harry to either take him off the table for whatever the upcoming starborn event is or to force harry to tow the line for the white council. Either way I expect that it will be Carlos who comes after harry next and will probably be in charge of monitoring harry now that he isn't a wizard anymore. I also expect that Carlos now blames harry for what happened to the other wardens with dracul
-
I find Carlos very "Schrödinger's Loyalty" right now.
He may have given up on Harry; or it may all be an act. We don't know, for sure.
But please note: when they spoke privately at the end of White Night, Carlos expressed very strong support for the idea that Harry would embed himself with the Black-Hat crew and work his way toward the White-Council traitor(s) from that side. And everything he's done since then to "alienate" Harry could equally be seen as working to support Harry in that mission.
It occurs to me that maybe Jim himself hasn't decided which way to write it, and is holding off to see which way will work better.
-
Yeah they went South on the Carlos character. Without any justification. At least not as yet. We might need a book with carlos's viewpoint
-
I assume getting his spine bent into directions it shouldn't go by Molly in an act of treachery (which it has to be from his viewpoint, despite us knowing that Molly had no control over her actions) just may have colored Carlos's viewpoint.
-
The worst injuries of Carlos' life have come at the hands of the White Court and when he's been involved with Winter as an ally.
His injuries in the Wraith Deeps were his first as a mage. Molly messed him up badly and he was helping her. The PT/BG action led to his embarrassment during the meeting, a traumatic battle where he lost his two closest friends besides Harry and a climactic battle where he was merely a living shield instead of a major player. To him, being involved with the Winter and White Courts, is one of the worst places that a mage can be.
So now we have his relationship with Harry to consider. He still thinks of harry as a friend, but he can't completely trust him. He's wrong about Harry not telling him all his secrets, but Harry is beholden to Winter and is very friendly with the White Court. Blaming Harry for Kimiko and Wild Bill can be excused as trauma but even with his doubts he did argue against Harry's expulsion.
His warning talk with Harry at the end on BG wasn't handled well, but he had been thru nearly as much stress and trauma as Harry during that time. He wasn't thinking clearly and running nerves just as raw. I think he'll give Harry the benefit of the doubt when next they meet, but he'll be wary and Harry needs to be a tad more tactful himself.
-
It's also worth noting that Carlos... actually kinda has a point?
Like, Harry is acting sus as fuck in PT/BG.
Carlos: "Yo Man, we're kinda worried that you've be enthralled by the Totally not White Queen™. Can you talk to us about what's going on"
Harry: *Grounds staff and begins Channeling Magic* "FUCK YOU, I'M NOT SUS, YOU'RE SUS. FUCK OFF OR FIGHT ME".
Like, actually what the fuck dude. You treat your frenemies/enemies with less venom then you do you supposed friends/allies, and then go all 'boo hoo woe is me, why don't they believe me' when they don't trust you.
Trust is a two way street Harry, you learned this in like, book 3 with Murphy, remember?
-
I think after you are almost killed 15 times for random strangers who just asked you to save them you get a little credit in the could I have become evil bank. Now granted harry could say that he is protected from the white court because of Murphy but is there really any proof that the council will accept from harry that he is his own man
-
If they don't give you credit for having the last 4 Knights of the Cross as close friends ...
-
If they don't give you credit for having the last 4 Knights of the Cross as close friends ...
THIS.
Being friends with the KotC's is about the closest thing you'll ever get in the Dresdenverse to overt, external, objective proof.
-
THIS.
Being friends with the KotC's is about the closest thing you'll ever get in the Dresdenverse to overt, external, objective proof.
Indeed, I think the injury Carlos got when he tried to make love to the Winter Lady did more than physical damage to him. Since Molly never warned him of possible severe physical injury if he made love to her, he not only blames her but now suspects the whole Winter Court. That makes him very vulnerable to any negative suggestions about anyone connected with the Winter Court. Thus the paranoia that the White Council feels about Harry is underscored in this case by the experience that Carlos had.
-
It's also worth noting that Carlos... actually kinda has a point?
Like, Harry is acting sus as fuck in PT/BG.
Carlos: "Yo Man, we're kinda worried that you've be enthralled by the Totally not White Queen™. Can you talk to us about what's going on"
Harry: *Grounds staff and begins Channeling Magic* "FUCK YOU, I'M NOT SUS, YOU'RE SUS. FUCK OFF OR FIGHT ME".
Like, actually what the fuck dude. You treat your frenemies/enemies with less venom then you do you supposed friends/allies, and then go all 'boo hoo woe is me, why don't they believe me' when they don't trust you.
Trust is a two way street Harry, you learned this in like, book 3 with Murphy, remember?
Actually, he learned the wrong lesson with Murphy, or maybe he learned both at once. Harry was almost certainly right to keep Murphy in the dark as much as he did, at that time. It was only after the loup garou rampage rubbed her nose in reality that it was probably safe to bring her fully into the loop. Even after that, she occasionally starts to let her craving to use the Law as a comfort belief cause her to do something that would make a diasaster, and Harry has to remind her of the loup garou and Carmichael to sober her up. Or remember the incident with the gruff at Mac's.
The Council has excellent reason to distrust Harry, based on his own past actions and inactions. Harry, likewise, has good reason to distrust the Council. The fault lies on both sides. As Carlos pointed out, Harry would have been very wise to put in more regular appearances at Edinburgh, to maintain a good PR image and good relations with some of the other Wizards. But Harry has reason to dislike associating with them, too.
The Council are afraid, in effect, that they're seeing Kemmler II emerging. We don't know the history of Kemmler in detail, for all we know he might have started out as an apparently 'good guy' in the early stages.
But remember what Bob told Harry about Kemmler, back in Dead Beat:
"...he was a necromancer...he had truck with demons, he was buddies with most of the vampire courts...and some of the uglier fairies, too. Plus he had his own little cadre of baby Kemmlers to help him..."
Sound familiar? From the POV of the more skeptical Council members, the above sounds more than a little like Harry. Not every detail, but Harry has apparently come back from the dead, he reanimated Sue, he's way too close for comfort with the White Court, he's known to have trafficked with demons, he's hooked up with a whole mess of entities who are, at best, not friendly to humanity, he's the Winter Knight, he's Margaret McCoy's son, he's managed to make himself the Warden of Demonreach (the ultimate unexploded bomb!), his former apprentice (a warlock herself!) is now Winter Lady, he's accumulating a number of powerful artifacts, he's gathering minions (the paranet would look an awful lot like a mechanism to do that from one POV) plus outfits like the Chicago protectors, he's allies (sort of) with Marcone, ...and he's copping an attitude.
What do we expect the Council to assume? I suspect Carlos himself is probably torn. I don't think, based on what he said in Battleground, that he thinks Harry is evil...but I do think he's afraid Harry might be headed that way in spite of himself, losing his footing on the slippery slope, so to speak.
The Council's attitude is completely reasonable, from their POV.
-
The problem is the White Council has selective memory where Harry is concerned.
No one can deny that many of Harry's exploits look shady from an outside view. But they don't give him credit for the bright ones or the times that he does the right thing when it might have been wiser to step aside.
Yes, he started the war with the Red Court (Though it was more that he gave them a pretext to put their plans in motion.), but he did it to save innocents from slavery and death. He resolved the war between Winter and Summer. He stood with the KotC as the Denarians tried to start anew Black Death. He stopped Kimmler's heirs. He again stood with the KotC to prevent the corruption of the Archive. He uncovered the traitor within the Council. He destroyed the Red Court. He dealt the deciding blow to Ethniu. These are the things that they know about but give no credit for. Saving the world in Cold Days and being literally on the side of the angels (Multiple casual interactions with Archangel Uriel come to mind.) would be more to his good but they don't know about those beyond what Harry's reported.
-
The problem is the White Council has selective memory where Harry is concerned.
No one can deny that many of Harry's exploits look shady from an outside view. But they don't give him credit for the bright ones or the times that he does the right thing when it might have been wiser to step aside.
Yes, he started the war with the Red Court (Though it was more that he gave them a pretext to put their plans in motion.), but he did it to save innocents from slavery and death. He resolved the war between Winter and Summer. He stood with the KotC as the Denarians tried to start anew Black Death. He stopped Kimmler's heirs. He again stood with the KotC to prevent the corruption of the Archive. He uncovered the traitor within the Council. He destroyed the Red Court. He dealt the deciding blow to Ethniu. These are the things that they know about but give no credit for. Saving the world in Cold Days and being literally on the side of the angels (Multiple casual interactions with Archangel Uriel come to mind.) would be more to his good but they don't know about those beyond what Harry's reported.
It depends on what you mean by credit. From the Council's POV, the issue is not whether he did most of those things, but rather the question: 'Why did he do it?'
That is, what were his motives, and what are the effects on him, and where is he going? Remember, a warlock can do good things and become a dangerous monster as a side effect. It almost happened to Molly, and I'm sure other warlocks got trapped trying to do what they thought was right. By many accounts, the start of Margaret's darkness was misguided idealism.
The Council is afraid they're seeing Kemmler II in embryo. That could be true even if all of Harry's motives are good. Yeah, he wiped out the Red Court. But that has both good and bad effects. He struck the decisive blow against Ethniu...but that could be in the service of good or bad intentions. Even if his intentions are good, the results could end up being catastrophically bad, and the Council knows that.
They aren't asking where he's been or what he's done or why, they're asking "Where is this going?" Which is a different question.
-
The Council is afraid they're seeing Kemmler II in embryo. That could be true even if all of Harry's motives are good. Yeah, he wiped out the Red Court. But that has both good and bad effects. He struck the decisive blow against Ethniu...but that could be in the service of good or bad intentions. Even if his intentions are good, the results could end up being catastrophically bad, and the Council knows that.
Or there are a lot of power politics going on, let's not forget that at least three on the Sr Council do not think that Harry is a baby Kemmler.. However there is at least one who feels threatened by Harry's growing power. And yes, in many ways Harry has made his own bed and given that one or two of influence to twist and use all that he has done against him.. As I said, the hurt that Carlos received when he attempted to have sex with Molly went deeper than the mere physical and candidate number one for manipulation against Harry.
-
It depends on what you mean by credit. From the Council's POV, the issue is not whether he did most of those things, but rather the question: 'Why did he do it?'
That is, what were his motives, and what are the effects on him, and where is he going? Remember, a warlock can do good things and become a dangerous monster as a side effect. It almost happened to Molly, and I'm sure other warlocks got trapped trying to do what they thought was right. By many accounts, the start of Margaret's darkness was misguided idealism.
The Council is afraid they're seeing Kemmler II in embryo. That could be true even if all of Harry's motives are good. Yeah, he wiped out the Red Court. But that has both good and bad effects. He struck the decisive blow against Ethniu...but that could be in the service of good or bad intentions. Even if his intentions are good, the results could end up being catastrophically bad, and the Council knows that.
They aren't asking where he's been or what he's done or why, they're asking "Where is this going?" Which is a different question.
If you saw one of the most promising talents of the past century who is also a Starborn, walking close to the darkness, would you try a calm and reasoned intercession or would you bully, threaten and ostracize him even though he has not done any dark acts?
The Council became antagonistic to Harry when he used a political move to save Molly. Until he got on Langtry's bad side there, Harry was a rising star. He had emerged from the Doom, been promoted to the Wardens and then to the Warden in charge of North America. He wasn't even required to report to any of the three Senior Council members living there.
As Mira said, this is all about politics. Langtry feels threatened by Harry and doesn't like the direction that he thinks Harry would lead or influence the Council toward. He now has the best of both worlds as he sees it. Harry is a Council outcast, and he can still use Harry by exploiting his incapability to refuse to do the right thing.
-
The Council became antagonistic to Harry when he used a political move to save Molly. Until he got on Langtry's bad side there, Harry was a rising star. He had emerged from the Doom, been promoted to the Wardens and then to the Warden in charge of North America. He wasn't even required to report to any of the three Senior Council members living there.
Yes, but not quite, more politics, remember in Summer Knight there was that faction of the Sr. Council that wanted to have him busted back to apprentice. They refused to see that Bianca's party in Grave Peril was basically a set up by the Red Court to make trouble. Harry realized that and wasn't going to go, but was forced to when he lost Michael's Holy Sword, and it was further complicated by Susan forging the invitation so she could go and get a scoop.. Both sides were willing to make him the scapegoat for the start of their war. Those who were against him, didn't trust him because of who his mother was, they also couldn't believe a boy of his tender years could have knocked off a powerful former Warden like Justin without black magic.. They had voted to condemn instead of placing him under the Doom and they sure as heck didn't believe he deserved to be made a full wizard at 16. So that faction wasn't hard to convince that Harry deserved to be booted out of the White Council, or put under the sentence of death.
-
If you saw one of the most promising talents of the past century who is also a Starborn, walking close to the darkness, would you try a calm and reasoned intercession or would you bully, threaten and ostracize him even though he has not done any dark acts?
But Harry has committed more than a few dark acts. Usually in the service of a good cause, with his back to the wall, but it still happened. And a lot of what we know Harry to have done in a good cause could easily look like dark acts from another perspective.
Given the Council's overall attitudes about black magic, and their experience with Kemmler, I suspect the anti-Harry crowd's preference would be 'kill him now, while it's still relatively easy and not too many innocent bystanders get caught up in it'. My guess is that the 'ostrasize and warn' approach is the result of a compromise between Harry's Council enemies, who want him dead today, and his allies, who aren't sure or still have some faith in him. I suspect there's a large swath of 'not sure'.
As Mira said, this is all about politics. Langtry feels threatened by Harry and doesn't like the direction that he thinks Harry would lead or influence the Council toward. He now has the best of both worlds as he sees it. Harry is a Council outcast, and he can still use Harry by exploiting his incapability to refuse to do the right thing.
Probably there's some truth in that. Langtry would see that as 'being smart', though I suspect that deep down, he'd still prefer Harry dead. From Langtry's POV, it's better to kill potential warlocks early, before they can do more damage.
Remember how high the stakes are. Kemmler, for ex, was the single largest cause of World War One. Between the fighting itself, and the influenza plague it accelerated, and the nasty aftermath all over eastern Europe and Asia and other places, that adds up to (depending on how you count it) tens to hundreds of millions dead. If you count the USSR as a side-effect of WWI, that adds more millions of victims dead in the gulags and the intentional mass starvations. Plus he was apparently prevented from Darkhallowing himself to Mab-level by a narrow margin.
I don't agree with Langtry and the Council's actions, but I have no trouble understanding them. If I didn't have 'inside' information about Harry, I might agree with Langtry.
-
Given the Council's overall attitudes about black magic, and their experience with Kemmler, I suspect the anti-Harry crowd's preference would be 'kill him now, while it's still relatively easy and not too many innocent bystanders get caught up in it'. My guess is that the 'ostrasize and warn' approach is the result of a compromise between Harry's Council enemies, who want him dead today, and his allies, who aren't sure or still have some faith in him. I suspect there's a large swath of 'not sure'.
The time to have done that though was back during the events of Summer Knight. Harry had some powerful members of the Sr Council backing him, but if the Merlin wanted to push it, he may have succeeded. That attempt failed, in part because I believe they underestimated Harry. The irony of all of this is Harry has never planned his path, with him it just seem to happen..
Gaining the loyalty of the Wee Folk, thus an army? Shocking Mab and scaring the hell out of the White Council, planned? No, Harry just repaying them in pizza and freeing many of them held in bondage by the White Court, now he has their loyalty.
Warden of Demonreach? We are just beginning to learn what that means... Planned? Hell no, Harry didn't even have a clue that the place had a Warden,or needed a Warden, why it needed one, or that his little ceremony would make him one, he just wanted to protect Morgan.
Winter Knight? If he could have avoided that one, he would have, but he had to save his daughter, and in the process wiped out the whole Red Court, something the White Council had failed to do in their war or wars with them.. Point being, Harry now has the Winter Court at his back on top of everything else.
So now the White Council has booted him out of the Council, which is a rather feeble gesture considering the three things I just rattled off, oh yeah, one more thing, with the exception of the Holy Grail, Harry is also now holder of the Artifacts. So short of assassination, if they can convince Eb to murder his grandson, there isn't a heck of a lot they can do.
-
The problem is the White Council has selective memory where Harry is concerned.
No one can deny that many of Harry's exploits look shady from an outside view. But they don't give him credit for the bright ones or the times that he does the right thing when it might have been wiser to step aside.
Yes, he started the war with the Red Court (Though it was more that he gave them a pretext to put their plans in motion.), but he did it to save innocents from slavery and death. He resolved the war between Winter and Summer. He stood with the KotC as the Denarians tried to start anew Black Death. He stopped Kimmler's heirs. He again stood with the KotC to prevent the corruption of the Archive. He uncovered the traitor within the Council. He destroyed the Red Court. He dealt the deciding blow to Ethniu. These are the things that they know about but give no credit for. Saving the world in Cold Days and being literally on the side of the angels (Multiple casual interactions with Archangel Uriel come to mind.) would be more to his good but they don't know about those beyond what Harry's reported.
The thing is: it's not the White Council's job to extend trust, to look for more-charitable explanations, to hope for the best. They do not allow themselves to mind-probe motivations & intentions.
They go by actions and likely intentions.
Their job is to find and stop sorcerors before they do too much damage.
Picking one of your examples:
Harry showed up with Sue, heroically rescued a bunch of wardens, and went on to heroically prevent any of the Kemmlerites from finishing the Darkhallow.
But of course EvilHarry(tm) would do exactly that: EvilHarry wouldn't want any of the other Kemmlerites to become a protogod of death-fueled vengeance. Note that all the other Kemmlerites were also equally-avid about stoppying anyone (but themselves) from succeeding, just like Harry was!
But Harry showed up to that party riding a 66-million-year-old necromantic monster. You don't get that sort of power in moments (I mean, Harry literally did... but so far as the Council is concerned, you can't... so obviously Harry didn't). What Harry did -- riding in on Sue -- proved to the council beyond all reasonable doubt that he had been secretly-studying Black Magic (to wit, Necromancy) for many years; in effect, showing that he was likely a disciple of one of Kemmler's disciples, and every bit as dangerous as any of Kemmler's disciples themselves!
-
Harry showed up with Sue, heroically rescued a bunch of wardens, and went on to heroically prevent any of the Kemmlerites from finishing the Darkhallow.
Harry did, he rationalized that he wasn't doing anything wrong technically because Sue wasn't human. Oh, let's not forget that he was aided in doing that by a fallen angel.. But how could they have know that? Did he even get called on the carpet to be questioned about it? No.. However did the White Council have a better answer for Cowl and Company? They didn't seem to did they.
But Harry showed up to that party riding a 66-million-year-old necromantic monster. You don't get that sort of power in moments (I mean, Harry literally did... but so far as the Council is concerned, you can't... so obviously Harry didn't). What Harry did -- riding in on Sue -- proved to the council beyond all reasonable doubt that he had been secretly-studying Black Magic (to wit, Necromancy) for many years; in effect, showing that he was likely a disciple of one of Kemmler's disciples, and every bit as dangerous as any of Kemmler's disciples themselves!
Maybe, but they kept him on as a Warden for some time after that.. In fact wasn't that part of the paperwork that Rashid was going to fill out to get him reinstated in Cold Days? Can't remember if reinstating his Warden status was part of that or not.. Maybe he lost that when he became Winter Knight...
Their job is to find and stop sorcerors before they do too much damage.
Well, if that's what they really think Harry is, then they blew that one BIG TIME! :o They are ALL guilty of enabling and aiding one of the most dangerous sorcerers in the modern era and should immediately chop off their own heads, beginning with the Merlin! ::)
-
The thing is: it's not the White Council's job to extend trust, to look for more-charitable explanations, to hope for the best. They do not allow themselves to mind-probe motivations & intentions.
They go by actions and likely intentions.
Their job is to find and stop sorcerors before they do too much damage.
Picking one of your examples:
Harry showed up with Sue, heroically rescued a bunch of wardens, and went on to heroically prevent any of the Kemmlerites from finishing the Darkhallow.
But of course EvilHarry(tm) would do exactly that: EvilHarry wouldn't want any of the other Kemmlerites to become a protogod of death-fueled vengeance. Note that all the other Kemmlerites were also equally-avid about stoppying anyone (but themselves) from succeeding, just like Harry was!
But Harry showed up to that party riding a 66-million-year-old necromantic monster. You don't get that sort of power in moments (I mean, Harry literally did... but so far as the Council is concerned, you can't... so obviously Harry didn't). What Harry did -- riding in on Sue -- proved to the council beyond all reasonable doubt that he had been secretly-studying Black Magic (to wit, Necromancy) for many years; in effect, showing that he was likely a disciple of one of Kemmler's disciples, and every bit as dangerous as any of Kemmler's disciples themselves!
Then, I'll say that the Council is riddled with villains, even among the highest members, because if they believe that Harry's actions are a likely long-term dark plot then they're basing it off what they would likely do in that situation. Or they're all slipping into paranoia and think every action of any of their members not personally witnessed is an evil trick.
Why spare any kids that have broken any of the seven laws? Harry survived only because self-defense is permitted, and Eb took him under the Doom. Molly because Harry accepted the Doom and used politics on Langtry. Trust was extended.
Why later promote a suspected warlock to the Wardens? And then to Warden commander for North America? That's only the region with the foremost power of the mortal world, the center of the White Court and the frontline vs the Red Court. And Demonreach is located there. Doesn't that show an extension of trust?
Why not move against Harry once he took over Demonreach? If you thought he was going to pull a Kemmler type power play, you left him all the unmonitored time he needed to set it up. For that matter, he could destroy the world at any time by throwing open the prison. Again, they trusted him not to do it.
Why not expel a Warden that didn't toe the line against the Reds? The duly appointed Warden of North America reported the time and location of the Reds' first strike and asked for aid to preempt it. He was ordered to stand down, disobeyed, formed an alliance with a foreign power, ended the threat of the Reds completely with the help the KotC and a black-ops crew of wizards, seemingly dies in the aftermath and resurfaces in the service of that foreign power, immediately goes no contact for a year on Demonreach, pops back up to serve that same foreign power again but is still counted upon as a high level liaison with said power during the most important political event since the creation of the Accords.
When the Ethniu event breaks out, our untrustworthy warden risks his life to save a neighborhood of mortals, alerts his field commander to a Black Court ambush and is instrumental in stopping it, delays a Jotun assault at great personal risk, organizes a small army and strikes the final blow in the decisive battle. But he (technically)violated one of the seven laws during this pitched battle to save the world so he's now over the line and declared a convicted warlock that will be executed if he sneezes wrong. Why suspend the sentence? If he's truly over the line, they should have sent a strike team from Edinborough immediately. He wasn't running or hiding, just sleeping in the home of a retired KotC under a guard of capital A angels. Isn't that how all budding Dark Lords recover?
I don't disagree about keeping a close eye on Harry but he's more than earned a modicum of trust.
-
The thing is: it's not the White Council's job to extend trust, to look for more-charitable explanations, to hope for the best. They do not allow themselves to mind-probe motivations & intentions.
They go by actions and likely intentions.
Their job is to find and stop sorcerors before they do too much damage.
...
But Harry showed up to that party riding a 66-million-year-old necromantic monster. You don't get that sort of power in moments (I mean, Harry literally did... but so far as the Council is concerned, you can't... so obviously Harry didn't). What Harry did -- riding in on Sue -- proved to the council beyond all reasonable doubt that he had been secretly-studying Black Magic (to wit, Necromancy) for many years; in effect, showing that he was likely a disciple of one of Kemmler's disciples, and every bit as dangerous as any of Kemmler's disciples themselves!
Maybe, but they kept him on as a Warden for some time after that.. In fact wasn't that part of the paperwork that Rashid was going to fill out to get him reinstated in Cold Days? Can't remember if reinstating his Warden status was part of that or not.. Maybe he lost that when he became Winter Knight...
Well, if that's what they really think Harry is, then they blew that one BIG TIME! :o
Harry's opponents on the Council would agree with you there. That's pretty much exactly what they think. They think the Council has indulged a dangerous likely warlock for years, let him build up a serious power base, and opened the way to worse things. They mostly think Harry should have been executed years ago, when it would still have been easy and no bystanders need be harmed.
They would go on to say, though, that 'we are where we are', and for them, the longer the inevitable reckoning is delayed, the more painful it's going to be. So even if it would have better for most people to kill Harry 20 years ago, or 15, or 10...it'll only keep getting worse as time passes, the cost of the containment operation will keep rising, esp. for innocent bystanders.
Harry's allies take a more sympathetic view, and are more prepared to take a chance on him based on circumstances, but they can't prove their position about Harry. From the collective Council POV, his enemies could still be right, based on the data.
I'm pretty sure there's also a swath of the Council that is not quite sure about Harry either way. (I suspect Carlos falls here.)
As a result, the Council position is perpetually muddied, and it has been for years. The ruling Carlos had to deliver looks pretty much like the result of a massive unsatisfactory compromise between the ones who want him dead yesterday, his allies, with the undecided voting a middle road. As with many (but not all) compromises, it satisfies no one and infuriates everybody.
Then, I'll say that the Council is riddled with villains, even among the highest members, because if they believe that Harry's actions are a likely long-term dark plot then they're basing it off what they would likely do in that situation.
That's pretty much standard Council procedure, and has been for centuries, for what it's worth. As Luccio observed back in the day, the Council isn't in the justice business, they're in the 'restraining power' business.
Why spare any kids that have broken any of the seven laws? Harry survived only because self-defense is permitted, and Eb took him under the Doom. Molly because Harry accepted the Doom and used politics on Langtry. Trust was extended.
And note that in both cases this was the exception, not the rule, and many Council members thought Harry should die at the time. Ditto Molly. In both cases, the result was an exception, and Langtry and his faction considered that it was a dangerous mistake in both cases.
Usually, a strongly-suspected warlock gets no second chance.
Why later promote a suspected warlock to the Wardens?
Because the situation was desperate, Luccio was one of Wizards somewhat sympathetic to Harry, and many people thought Harry being a Warden was a mistake at the time.
Why not move against Harry once he took over Demonreach? If you thought he was going to pull a Kemmler type power play, you left him all the unmonitored time he needed to set it up. For that matter, he could destroy the world at any time by throwing open the prison. Again, they trusted him not to do it.
You answer your own question.
Harry's enemies on the Council, I'm sure, wanted to take him down once he became THE Warden. But they couldn't convince his allies to go along...and now he is the Warden. So any attempt to take him down risks catastrophe if he threatens to release the monsters. So even if they're going to go after him, it's no longer simple or easy.
From the POV of Harry's enemies, his becoming Warden isn't a sign of trust, it's a sign that they were Right All Along and time is running out.
But he (technically)violated one of the seven laws during this pitched battle to save the world so he's now over the line and declared a convicted warlock that will be executed if he sneezes wrong. Why suspend the sentence?
Because the Council is divided and can't reach agreement. His enemies want him dead, his allies are his allies (to a point, anyway) and the middle of the road can't decide. So his enemies got a death sentence and his allies got it suspended. Compromise in a divided Council.
2
If he's truly over the line, they should have sent a strike team from Edinborough immediately.
And I have no doubt his hard-line opponents wanted to do just that. Strike hard and fast, while's he still tired and weak, and maybe you can take him out without him releasing the monsters or using his artifacts or getting help from Winter. But they couldn't get the rest of the Council to go along.
The Council's actions make perfect sense...when you remember that it's a giant committee, and even the Senior Council has to reach agreement among themselves.
-
Then, I'll say that the Council is riddled with villains, even among the highest members, because if they believe that Harry's actions are a likely long-term dark plot then they're basing it off what they would likely do in that situation ...
I don't think villains. But a mix of extreme aversion to innovation, and blindness to changing circumstances. Plus of course the famous (and infamously misattributed):
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
I think the White Council engages in an awful lot of that "doing nothing" part of things!
...
Or they're all slipping into paranoia and think every action ... is an evil trick ...
This too... even moreso.
How long was Wizard Peabody in place? Subtly increasing peoples' suspicions; subtly increasing their fear.
Even after Peabody's explicit controls were broken, I think he had decades (maybe even a century or so?) to instill habitual thought-patterns; unconscious patterns that would be incredibly hard to break.
So yeah: paranoia rampant? Absolutely!
-
So yeah: paranoia rampant? Absolutely!
On steroids, plus refusal to see that the world has changed. Fewer still willing to step up and train the next generation of wizards, kids are still showing up with talent but without masters to guide them, experiment and more often than not got down a dark path simply because they don't know better. With the zero tolerance policy and the lack of interest in real trials for these kids and fewer wizards willing to put their own heads on the line under the Doom to try and redeem them, too many future wizards are losing their heads before they even begun.
This is what Margaret tried to warn them of and ultimately rebelled against.
-
Harry did, he rationalized that he wasn't doing anything wrong technically because Sue wasn't human... However did the White Council have a better answer for Cowl and Company? They didn't seem to did they.
Maybe, but they kept him on as a Warden for some time after that...
Politics -- and fear of being murdered by Rampires -- make strange bedfellows.
They needed him.
And maybe there were people arguing "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!" and suggesting the White Council would do better to bring Harry into the wardens, where many other wardens would be routinely interacting with him... all the better to spot warlock-ism's, eh?
-
Politics -- and fear of being murdered by Rampires -- make strange bedfellows.
They needed him.
And maybe there were people arguing "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!" and suggesting the White Council would do better to bring Harry into the wardens, where many other wardens would be routinely interacting with him... all the better to spot warlock-ism's, eh?
I'm sure Luccio used just that argument with Harry's enemies on the Council. There's precedent, too. The Council tends to make people with warlock-ish talents into Wardens so they can watch each other.
IIRC, JB said once that one of the reasons Chandler was a Warden was precisely that he had a knack for time magic. As a Warden he can use that knack to police the magical world, and at the same time the other Wardens are around him all the time so if he starts to misuse it, he can be detected and dealt with. JB also pointed out that Molly might well end up as a Warden because of her mind magic talent.
-
I'm sure Luccio used just that argument with Harry's enemies on the Council. There's precedent, too. The Council tends to make people with warlock-ish talents into Wardens so they can watch each other.
IIRC, JB said once that one of the reasons Chandler was a Warden was precisely that he had a knack for time magic. As a Warden he can use that knack to police the magical world, and at the same time the other Wardens are around him all the time so if he starts to misuse it, he can be detected and dealt with. JB also pointed out that Molly might well end up as a Warden because of her mind magic talent.
That was one of the possibilities that Harry saw in his soul gaze of her, he also saw her as an inhuman monster, and a vanilla human mother..
-
I'm sure Luccio used just that argument with Harry's enemies on the Council. There's precedent, too. The Council tends to make people with warlock-ish talents into Wardens so they can watch each other.
IIRC, JB said once that one of the reasons Chandler was a Warden was precisely that he had a knack for time magic. As a Warden he can use that knack to police the magical world, and at the same time the other Wardens are around him all the time so if he starts to misuse it, he can be detected and dealt with. JB also pointed out that Molly might well end up as a Warden because of her mind magic talent.
Making people with warlock tendencies warden actually makes sense in a way.
1) it reminds what would happen to them if they went warlock ie caught and beheaded 2) it shows them the harm abusing their powers would cause. They mostly end up hating warlocks and everything about warlock ensuring they dont become warlocks.
-
Making people with warlock tendencies warden actually makes sense in a way.
1) it reminds what would happen to them if they went warlock ie caught and beheaded 2) it shows them the harm abusing their powers would cause. They mostly end up hating warlocks and everything about warlock ensuring they dont become warlocks.
Or they can do an enormous amount of damage because of their position of power. Think of a would be warlock warden as a bad cop, and the damage a bad cop does in a community. The result is a lot of innocents hurt or dead, and major scandal for the White Council.
-
Making people with warlock tendencies warden actually makes sense in a way.
1) it reminds what would happen to them if they went warlock ie caught and beheaded 2) it shows them the harm abusing their powers would cause. They mostly end up hating warlocks and everything about warlock ensuring they dont become warlocks.
That's only a good idea if they are going to be in constant contact with other wardens. In practice, the North American wardens have months to years where they rarely see one another. They have plenty of time to train in methods to avoid detection and recruit followers. Harry sees more major magical action than any other warden besides Morgan and they still think he had the free time to build his plot for world domination.
And yes, I can see that plot:
Get raised as a warlock by Justin, rebel and kill him in "self-defense".
Bob, otherwise known as the Word of Kemmler.
Take advantage of your grandfather's mercy and get trained further. Earn the trust of several Senior Council members.
Work with local law enforcement and organized crime to build contacts.
Form an alliance with the White Court and later the Winter Court.
Help overthrow the power structure of the White Court while forging "relations" with the new leaders.
Stop the heirs of Kemmler. You're not ready to advance your plans and it'll build more favor with the Senior Council.
Go to war with the Red Court with the support of the Council, Winter and the White Court emerging victorious as the new Winter Knight.
Take down the Formor and openly marry the Queen of the White Court.
Out of context it all holds together but it leaves out some things that don't add up to evil incarnate rising:
Stopping the Denarians at multiple points while resisting their efforts to recruit you, including actual coin possession.
Having KotC show up to aid rather than oppose you on multiple occasions and being ally, mentor, houseguest, baby-sitter (Molly) and drinking buddy with each of the KotC that served since you've been a wizard.
Getting Soulfire from an Archangel.
Actually, telling the Council about most of these things openly with the exceptions of Bob, the Coin and Soulfire.
It's easier to just jump to a general conclusion and summary judgement than put in the work of investigating. Just approaching Michael and asking him to address some areas of concern would get most of this. Unless they think Harry has convinced a KotC to lie for him.
-
That's only a good idea if they are going to be in constant contact with other wardens. In practice, the North American wardens have months to years where they rarely see one another. They have plenty of time to train in methods to avoid detection and recruit followers. Harry sees more major magical action than any other warden besides Morgan and they still think he had the free time to build his plot for world domination.
Did they spot that tendency in Justin? I doubt that he turned warlock after he retired.. The fact that he hid and stole Bob when the wardens killed Kemmler is a good indication that he was..
-
That's only a good idea if they are going to be in constant contact with other wardens. In practice, the North American wardens have months to years where they rarely see one another ...
I'm pretty sure the Harry-as-Warden POV (which is the only one we have) is largely an artifact of post-Ramp-War warden scarcity. But they likely didn't revisit a bunch of policies based on older assumptions (just as they didn't revisit the amount of the "warden stipend" (when in fact the WC is filthy-rich and it's in their own interests for wardens to be financially secure).
Just inertia.
... but it leaves out some things that don't add up to evil incarnate rising:
Stopping the Denarians at multiple points while resisting their efforts to recruit you, including actual coin possession.
Having KotC show up to aid rather than oppose you on multiple occasions and being ally, mentor, houseguest, baby-sitter (Molly) and drinking buddy with each of the KotC that served since you've been a wizard.
Getting Soulfire from an Archangel.
Actually, telling the Council about most of these things openly with the exceptions of Bob, the Coin and Soulfire.
I do not believe most of this list has actually been reported to the Council.
Fighting the Denarians? I think it's known, but that's just being sane; it doesn't prove anything. And AFAIK mostly that only showed up (from the White Council perspective) when Harry needed to act as Winter Emissary in protection of the Gangster Baron... which to the White Council is a bunch of bad-guys mutually backstabbing one another and being incautious around the time-bomb that is an immature Archive. And Harry looks pretty indistinguishable, in all the stabbing and bad-guy'ing & carelessness with the Archive.
Picking up a Denarius? Not on the record! That'd get him killed ASAP: remember, nobody think there's any way to escape.
Buddying up with KtoC's? Not well known.
Remember, Langtry had to ask Dresden which Sword was Michael's. If the WC had realized Harry worked (repeatedly) with all the K's ot C, I bet Langtry would have that info fresh in his mind when coming to a warlock-trial summoned by Dresden.
Soulfire -- not sure anyone knows about that, either. Bob does... but the White Council? The Senior Council? Umm... not that I recall seeing.
-
Soulfire -- not sure anyone knows about that, either. Bob does... but the White Council? The Senior Council? Umm... not that I recall seeing.]
I don't think that it is general knowledge, I don't think most if any of his friends know about it. In a fight his enemies are surprised to discover that he has Soulfire. Why? Because it isn't something that archangels commonly give out. I don't think Michael even knows he has Soulfire, or I don't remember that he knows.
-
... I don't think Michael even knows he has Soulfire, or I don't remember that he knows.
I don't think Michael knows enough about wizards & spells to have "Soulfire (yes or no)" on his radar at all.
I think Harry used it on the Cornerhounds he & Eb fought; but I'm not sure it really shows as such... it's possible Eb would just pin it down to "the kid's learned how to pack a harder punch!"
I don't think anyone else on the White Council even had a chance to see Harry use Soulfire.
-
I don't think anyone else on the White Council even had a chance to see Harry use Soulfire.
He used it against the Skin Walker on Demonreach, don't know if Listens to Wind witnessed that or since at that time Harry was using it to enhance his defense/offense against the Skinwalker, Listens to Wind might not have recognized it.. It is possible that the gift of Soul Fire is so rare, the White Council wouldn't know what it was if they saw it.
-
.... It is possible that the gift of Soul Fire is so rare, the White Council wouldn't know what it was if they saw it.
That seems possible, too.
Harry has it, and WoJ says Odin does... Do we know (for sure) that anyone else has it?
Bob knows about it -- apparently, quite a lot -- and much of his "magic theory" knowledge seems White-Council-Specific (and Kemmlerite, for Evil-Bob), so it may be abstruse or rare knowledge (something only the nerdiest of WC wizards would know of; maybe even something they'd need to check their archives to ID) but I suspect it's not utterly unknown to the WC ...
-
That seems possible, too.
Harry has it, and WoJ says Odin does... Do we know (for sure) that anyone else has it?
Bob knows about it -- apparently, quite a lot -- and much of his "magic theory" knowledge seems White-Council-Specific (and Kemmlerite, for Evil-Bob), so it may be abstruse or rare knowledge (something only the nerdiest of WC wizards would know of; maybe even something they'd need to check their archives to ID) but I suspect it's not utterly unknown to the WC ...
Agreed, Jim is still keeping his options open for future books. However I don't think since he is a god, you can put Odin in the same category as Harry. Was Odin ever a vanilla human? Wasn't he up there power wise as an angel to begin with, but without the restraints of either angels or archangels?
-
That's only a good idea if they are going to be in constant contact with other wardens. In practice, the North American wardens have months to years where they rarely see one another. They have plenty of time to train in methods to avoid detection and recruit followers. Harry sees more major magical action than any other warden besides Morgan and they still think he had the free time to build his plot for world domination.
And yes, I can see that plot:
Get raised as a warlock by Justin, rebel and kill him in "self-defense".
Bob, otherwise known as the Word of Kemmler.
Take advantage of your grandfather's mercy and get trained further. Earn the trust of several Senior Council members.
Work with local law enforcement and organized crime to build contacts.
Form an alliance with the White Court and later the Winter Court.
Help overthrow the power structure of the White Court while forging "relations" with the new leaders.
Stop the heirs of Kemmler. You're not ready to advance your plans and it'll build more favor with the Senior Council.
Go to war with the Red Court with the support of the Council, Winter and the White Court emerging victorious as the new Winter Knight.
Take down the Formor and openly marry the Queen of the White Court.
Out of context it all holds together but it leaves out some things that don't add up to evil incarnate rising:
Stopping the Denarians at multiple points while resisting their efforts to recruit you, including actual coin possession.
Having KotC show up to aid rather than oppose you on multiple occasions and being ally, mentor, houseguest, baby-sitter (Molly) and drinking buddy with each of the KotC that served since you've been a wizard.
Getting Soulfire from an Archangel.
Actually, telling the Council about most of these things openly with the exceptions of Bob, the Coin and Soulfire.
It's easier to just jump to a general conclusion and summary judgement than put in the work of investigating. Just approaching Michael and asking him to address some areas of concern would get most of this. Unless they think Harry has convinced a KotC to lie for him.
Part pf Harry's problem with the WC is an Image issue. From the average WV members perspective Harry only shows up to meetings that are generally about bad news.
Harry is a young wizard who should be kissing the rings of older members, trying to make friends and networking. Instead he shows up to meetings late, in the wrong attire and with the attitude that the Council is beneath him. Harry shows up on the WC worst days delivering bad news and expects the WC to back him up.
Image Harry as a core worker, Dude got the job based on friendship with the manager, skips meetings, shows up to criticize the work you have done, claims he can do better than you idiots.
Goes away for who knows how long. Breaks the rules ,is saved by senior management , wants your help with a project he messed up, and you are ordered to help him. Dude f***s off to who knows where. Comes back barely contributes. And then when the project seems like its doomed to fail, shows up with a brilliant solution and gets all the credit. That's Harry from the Average WC member
All anyone knows about Harry is that he is trouble. Harry makes the barest amount of effort to make friends with members of the WC
-
Part pf Harry's problem with the WC is an Image issue. From the average WV members perspective Harry only shows up to meetings that are generally about bad news.
Harry is a young wizard who should be kissing the rings of older members, trying to make friends and networking. Instead he shows up to meetings late, in the wrong attire and with the attitude that the Council is beneath him. Harry shows up on the WC worst days delivering bad news and expects the WC to back him up.
Image Harry as a core worker, Dude got the job based on friendship with the manager, skips meetings, shows up to criticize the work you have done, claims he can do better than you idiots.
Goes away for who knows how long. Breaks the rules ,is saved by senior management , wants your help with a project he messed up, and you are ordered to help him. Dude f***s off to who knows where. Comes back barely contributes. And then when the project seems like its doomed to fail, shows up with a brilliant solution and gets all the credit. That's Harry from the Average WC member
All anyone knows about Harry is that he is trouble. Harry makes the barest amount of effort to make friends with members of the WC
Don't know if I fully agree with all of that. He has an image problem, true, but more because in my opinion of who his mother was and how he became a full wizard in the first place. At least when he is debated among the Senior Members, those are the issues that are brought up, see Summer Knight. I also don't think he thinks the members of the White Council are beneath him, on the contrary he has always voiced a lot of respect for them. That doesn't mean that he isn't critical of them and some of their actions, but that isn't the same as thinking he is better than they are. He has made friends on the White Council, aside from his grandfather, wouldn't you call Listens to Wind and Rashid friends? Until Peace Talks he was on good terms with Luccio and the other Wardens, the younger ones even looked up to him. I believe he contributed a lot in the defense of Molly, he solved the mystery of who killed the Summer Knight, he uncovered that Peabody was the real murderer, and more importantly that he was manipulating the whole Council with his ink. I'd say on the whole that for a guy who doesn't make it to every meeting, Harry contributes quite a bit to it.
-
Harry gets resentment because he's skipped the seniority line. He's that new hire that gets promoted to VP, the new money among the established aristocrats.
He got started as a redeemed warlock and did a very short turn as McCoy's trainee. Then he was inducted into the Wardens out of merit but mostly necessity. Then the big change, Senior Warden of North America. Yes, he stopped the Heirs of Kemmler, but isn't he still a little young for such a post? Shouldn't we put him under one of the three Senior Council members who dwell there? He may be qualified but he should have an experienced mentor just to teach him the preferred WC protocols.
And Harry has a little too much arrogance and rebellion in his attitude. This reputation as a maverick makes him somewhat popular among the younger Wardens but doesn't win him any friends among the rank-and-file members. To them, he's always skipping the queue and brown nosing the Senior Council and officers of the Wardens. Harry only deals with the executives, some of whom don't like him, and usually stands against the CEO. He's like a star IT tech who always delivers but does so in as grating a manner possible short of outright insult. He's needed but not popular until the next system crash. Plus, he seems to be flirting with outside job offers that have conflicts of interest.
-
Harry gets resentment because he's skipped the seniority line. He's that new hire that gets promoted to VP, the new money among the established aristocrats.
That really isn't his fault, is it?
He got started as a redeemed warlock and did a very short turn as McCoy's trainee. Then he was inducted into the Wardens out of merit but mostly necessity. Then the big change, Senior Warden of North America. Yes, he stopped the Heirs of Kemmler, but isn't he still a little young for such a post? Shouldn't we put him under one of the three Senior Council members who dwell there? He may be qualified but he should have an experienced mentor just to teach him the preferred WC protocols.
Again, not his fault. Also I wouldn't say Harry was ever a warlock. Not to say he hasn't flirted with dark magic, he admits that he has, but he was never a full fledged warlock.
And Harry has a little too much arrogance and rebellion in his attitude. This reputation as a maverick makes him somewhat popular among the younger Wardens but doesn't win him any friends among the rank-and-file members. To them, he's always skipping the queue and brown nosing the Senior Council and officers of the Wardens. Harry only deals with the executives, some of whom don't like him, and usually stands against the CEO. He's like a star IT tech who always delivers but does so in as grating a manner possible short of outright insult. He's needed but not popular until the next system crash. Plus, he seems to be flirting with outside job offers that have conflicts of interest.
It is, what it is, he was never out to win a popularity contest.. Yet for a guy who supposedly is a loner, he has a lot of friends who are willing to put it on the line for him.
-
I think Harry is popular among the young wizards. Or at least, he was. I am mad at Carlos and what he can do with the young wizards he knows or mentors. But I am wondering what the WC average member will think after PT/BG. I am pretty sure everyone, elder or young, is more or less afraid of Harry. But I wonder if some of them truly valued what he did and if some of them admire him.
I agree with some of the thing tinfoil hat said, but I see the analogy is not a common business but a company of Technology or something like that, where you can skip positions based on your brilliant mind. A powerful wizard is akin to a super creative genius. Zukerberg, Gates, Musk, no matter what you think about them, they were CEO very young. And I think Harry is comparable with them because of his raw power and the fact that he finds ways to increase it even more.
Besides, when Harry became Senior Warden of USA there were very few wardens who could have done that. I do not think many people resented that choice at the moment.
-
I think Harry is popular among the young wizards. Or at least, he was. I am mad at Carlos and what he can do with the young wizards he knows or mentors. But I am wondering what the WC average member will think after PT/BG. I am pretty sure everyone, elder or young, is more or less afraid of Harry. But I wonder if some of them truly valued what he did and if some of them admire him.
I agree with some of the thing tinfoil hat said, but I see the analogy is not a common business but a company of Technology or something like that, where you can skip positions based on your brilliant mind. A powerful wizard is akin to a super creative genius. Zukerberg, Gates, Musk, no matter what you think about them, they were CEO very young. And I think Harry is comparable with them because of his raw power and the fact that he finds ways to increase it even more.
Besides, when Harry became Senior Warden of USA there were very few wardens who could have done that. I do not think many people resented that choice at the moment.
Yes, my point is Harry didn't appoint himself to any of this nor promote himself, others did that. It's like the nine year old genius going to MIT and blowing the curve... The normal collage aged brilliant students will resent that...
-
Most things are not really Harry's fault, but I do not think that will matter to the other WC members, again, elder or young. Some will resent him, some will b scared, some will be fascinated. But, generally speaking, it won't be good for Harry's image or popularity. But there is a wrinkle in this. Do you know the old sentence "there is no bad publicity" or that is good that they talk about you even if they do it in a mean way? Well, I am sure Harry is probably one of the most famous wizards in USA and perhaps even in the world. His reputation, good or bad, is wide. And I think that will be important some day.
Meanwhile, I wonder what will happens with the new threat that appeared in BG. I do not like their introduction but I imagine they will be important in 12M. I am talking about the Librarians.
-
Don't know if I fully agree with all of that. He has an image problem, true, but more because in my opinion of who his mother was and how he became a full wizard in the first place ...
No, there's (much) more to it than that.
It's unclear just how big that "more" is, and the exact shape of it; but let me remind you:
Consider the Council's POV:
1/ if Harry's story is true -- killing DuMorne was self-defense after the former Warden sent a summoned demon after him -- then Harry was raised by & apprenticed to a warlock; specifically, he was trained as a warlock (not as a WC wizard). And we know this actually is the case, because Harry keeps showing up with weird bits of wizardly ignorance unsuited for a full WC wizard (types of lycanthrope, 3-queens model of Summer/Winter courts, "Conjuritis," etc)... but with a really-outsized suite of combat-magic. And if his story isn't true -- DuMorne didn't attack first, it wasn't self-defense -- then he killed DuMorne in a full-blown 1st-Law-breaking warlock act.
Either way, that pre-WC background is a HUGE piece of Harry's "image problem;" it gives the overwhelming appearance of "whichever way it happened, he's still a warlock."
2/ Speaking of Harry's "outsized" combat power -- it's REALLY outsized, frighteningly-powerful: Harry scares entire combat-platoons of Wardens. Beginning -- as a barely-trained teen -- by taking out a fully-trained senior Warden, he moved on to vampires (all the big Courts), lycanthropes of various stripes (including the incredibly-tough Loup-Garou), on up to heavyweight Fae and thence to the Summer Lady. It's remarked that before he turned 40 he had seen more combat that most wizards ever saw in their lives, and defeated more-powerful foes than most ever defeated... and he's still in the "dumb kid just figuring stuff out" phase of his career! That's terrifying.
3/ When Harry first met McCoy's Sr-Council allies in the parking structure, one of them reminded McCoy "you know what he was meant to be." Now... we don't know "what he was meant to be." Just the Big Gun in a warlock's private brute-squad? Or something else, something more... a reference to his mom's "Starbabe" plan? And what about the reference to a "Destroyer" in the Morgan-POV short Journal (we don't even know what a "Destroyer" is; but presumably it's something known to (at least some of) the Senior Council)? But there's something about Harry, about his origin and/or early training, that makes him inherently problematic and worrisome, to those who know.
4/ His overall attitude of disrespect for the WC and their authority paints him in a proud and arrogant light; more than one senior wizard has remarked (when Harry complained about the stifling WC rules) that Harry is unaware of the horrors unrestrained wizardry has unleashed (and every time that happens, read the subtext there of Harry having pointed-out to them the inadequacy of his training, how Justin skipped the history and the "why" and the Laws, in favor of m0Ar POWER!
-
1/ if Harry's story is true -- killing DuMorne was self-defense after the former Warden sent a summoned demon after him -- then Harry was raised by & apprenticed to a warlock; specifically, he was trained as a warlock (not as a WC wizard). And we know this actually is the case, because Harry keeps showing up with weird bits of wizardly ignorance unsuited for a full WC wizard (types of lycanthrope, 3-queens model of Summer/Winter courts, "Conjuritis," etc)... but with a really-outsized suite of combat-magic. And if his story isn't true -- DuMorne didn't attack first, it wasn't self-defense -- then he killed DuMorne in a full-blown 1st-Law-breaking warlock act.
I don't think Harry lied, it was established that he was trained to become an "enforcer" eventually. Harry was raised ignorant of the
White Council and the Seven Laws. Somehow the White Council missed that one of their Wardens, i.e. Justin was either a warlock at the time of his retirement, or turned so shortly after.. How does that happen? Harry was more innocent victim, an angry one with a lot of power, than warlock, according to what Eb saw in his soul gaze of him.. Now that isn't to say that Eb may have blinded himself to the facts because Harry was his grandson, but as an experience wizard and the Council's designated assassin, I believe Eb would recognized it if Harry was a warlock or so far down the road towards that that he was irredeemable.
Either way, that pre-WC background is a HUGE piece of Harry's "image problem;" it gives the overwhelming appearance of "whichever way it happened, he's still a warlock."
Image doesn't make him a warlock.. It was also established back in Death Masks by the Ulsharavas, that though Harry is stained somewhat by black magic and admits to making a bad call or two, that he wasn't a warlock.. If he were the Ulsharavas wouldn't have answered his questions. Appearances are not evidence, one needs facts to prove something.
2/ Speaking of Harry's "outsized" combat power -- it's REALLY outsized, frighteningly-powerful: Harry scares entire combat-platoons of Wardens. Beginning -- as a barely-trained teen -- by taking out a fully-trained senior Warden, he moved on to vampires (all the big Courts), lycanthropes of various stripes (including the incredibly-tough Loup-Garou), on up to heavyweight Fae and thence to the Summer Lady. It's remarked that before he turned 40 he had seen more combat that most wizards ever saw in their lives, and defeated more-powerful foes than most ever defeated... and he's still in the "dumb kid just figuring stuff out" phase of his career! That's terrifying.
That still doesn't make either evil or a warlock, all it establishes is that he is powerful, as seen by Eb in the soul gaze. Also especially in his earlier years he was a lot of kaboom with no control.. Yes, he has seen a lot of combat for one of his years, but so has Carlos for that matter, the same could be said of any young Warden who fought in the war with the Red Court. I guess you could call Harry the Audie Murphy of wizards... Audie Murphy who entered the army during WWII at the age of 16 and became the country's most decorated war hero.
3/ When Harry first met McCoy's Sr-Council allies in the parking structure, one of them reminded McCoy "you know what he was meant to be." Now... we don't know "what he was meant to be." Just the Big Gun in a warlock's private brute-squad? Or something else, something more... a reference to his mom's "Starbabe" plan? And what about the reference to a "Destroyer" in the Morgan-POV short Journal (we don't even know what a "Destroyer" is; but presumably it's something known to (at least some of) the Senior Council)? But there's something about Harry, about his origin and/or early training, that makes him inherently problematic and worrisome, to those who know.
More important question I think should be, how does the Council know what Harry was meant to be? And if they knew, how come they let him fall into the hands of someone like Justin in the first place?
4/ His overall attitude of disrespect for the WC and their authority paints him in a proud and arrogant light; more than one senior wizard has remarked (when Harry complained about the stifling WC rules) that Harry is unaware of the horrors unrestrained wizardry has unleashed (and every time that happens, read the subtext there of Harry having pointed-out to them the inadequacy of his training, how Justin skipped the history and the "why" and the Laws, in favor of m0Ar POWER!
There I totally disagree, he never had an attitude of disrespect for the WC. Yes, he disagrees with a lot of their ideas as outmoded, and has clashed verbally with them, but he also more often as not speaks of their power and the rules. If he disrespected the White Council he wouldn't have turned Molly over to their justice for trial as a warlock. At the end of the day he still believed in their justice.
-
Mira, I think this time I agree with Geek. I mean, you are right Harry is a victim of Justin, he is not a warlock and he respected the WC rules...but he was raised as a warlock, he sometimes acts like a warlock (full of rage) and he is verbally disrespectful. Do he presents like a Warlock-wonna-be. I think Harry is a sort of young Anakin Skywalker. He has the potential to become a great Jedi master, or Darth Vader. And the WC knows his potential for dark and that scares them. Aside from Eb, they did almost nothing to help him to remain in the light. Luckily, Harry, with the things he learnt from his dad and the guidance of people like Michael, is mostly good.
-
Mira, no one is arguing that Harry is a warlock, but that the White Council somewhat justified in their suspicion of him based off the information they have.
Aside from Eb, we do not know if any council members have soulgazed Harry, so only secondhand accounts of most of Harry's adventures and character are known to them. We, as readers, have all the necessary information but everything isn't known to the council and a good bit of the exonerating info isn't. A demonstration of soulfire at that council vote would probably have swayed it.
Rashiid knows enough, Eb, Luccio and Listens probably trust him, and Carlos will at least talk before fighting but the rest just don't have enough to make an argument for or against Harry in a council vote and will follow Langtry, (who probably would trust Harry but is biased against him for reasons of pride and politics.)
-
Part pf Harry's problem with the WC is an Image issue. From the average WV members perspective Harry only shows up to meetings that are generally about bad news.
Harry is a young wizard who should be kissing the rings of older members, trying to make friends and networking. Instead he shows up to meetings late, in the wrong attire and with the attitude that the Council is beneath him. Harry shows up on the WC worst days delivering bad news and expects the WC to back him up.
Image Harry as a core worker, Dude got the job based on friendship with the manager, skips meetings, shows up to criticize the work you have done, claims he can do better than you idiots.
Goes away for who knows how long. Breaks the rules ,is saved by senior management , wants your help with a project he messed up, and you are ordered to help him. Dude f***s off to who knows where. Comes back barely contributes. And then when the project seems like its doomed to fail, shows up with a brilliant solution and gets all the credit. That's Harry from the Average WC member
All anyone knows about Harry is that he is trouble. Harry makes the barest amount of effort to make friends with members of the WC
Don't know if I fully agree with all of that. He has an image problem, true, but more because in my opinion of who his mother was and how he became a full wizard in the first place.
True...but that doesn't really change much. His mother being who she was, and his association with Justin, are all the more reason Harry really should have been making more of an effort, all along, to reassure the other Wizards and project an 'I'm not my mother' image.
Yeah, that's not fair. Yes, we know Harry isn't the nightmare a lot of the other Council members think he is. But Harry still should have been making more of an effort, in part precisely because of who his mother was.
One thing Harry did apprently inherit from Margaret is his attitude. They both have a lot of pride, and a substantial tendency to take a 'FU' attitude to authority they don't respect, which is most authority.
But whether that lack of respect is justified or not, it's still a character flaw, one that has helped put Harry in the position he's now in.
As I said, there is fault on both sides in the Harry/Council relationship.
-
4/ His overall attitude of disrespect for the WC and their authority paints him in a proud and arrogant light; more than one senior wizard has remarked (when Harry complained about the stifling WC rules) that Harry is unaware of the horrors unrestrained wizardry has unleashed (and every time that happens, read the subtext there of Harry having pointed-out to them the inadequacy of his training, how Justin skipped the history and the "why" and the Laws, in favor of m0Ar POWER!
Note, too, that over the years, Harry himself has been forced to admit that some of the stuff the older Wizards do and insist on turned on to be necessary, even if unpleasant. Harry is still very young inexperienced, as Wizards go, and he still has a lot to learn.
-
There I totally disagree, he never had an attitude of disrespect for the WC. Yes, he disagrees with a lot of their ideas as outmoded, and has clashed verbally with them, but he also more often as not speaks of their power and the rules. If he disrespected the White Council he wouldn't have turned Molly over to their justice for trial as a warlock. At the end of the day he still believed in their justice.
His attitude about the Council has gone back and forth, sometimes naively trusting, sometimes contemptuous. It's a mark of his youth and inexperience that (esp. in the early books) he tends to see a failure to live up to their ideals and PR entirely as damning, 'either or'.
"The Council can bite me." A quote from one of the early books, from an incident in which Harry was doing something stupid that the Council would have advised against. A few minutes later, he learned how stupid what he was doing was (dealing with Chaunzoggorth).
-
His attitude about the Council has gone back and forth, sometimes naively trusting, sometimes contemptuous. It's a mark of his youth and inexperience that (esp. in the early books) he tends to see a failure to live up to their ideals and PR entirely as damning, 'either or'.
"The Council can bite me." A quote from one of the early books, from an incident in which Harry was doing something stupid that the Council would have advised against. A few minutes later, he learned how stupid what he was doing was (dealing with Chaunzoggorth).
I think it is a maturing process isn't it? Then there is the fact of all the White Council wizards, Harry is the least shielded from the outer world, i.e. modern world, and it's attitudes. He has also gotten to know at least two wizards, i.e. Mort and Elaine who have avoided becoming members the White Council. I think that too has shaped his attitude in the later years.
-
I don't think Harry lied ...
I'm not trying to argue how things are.
I'm saying how I think things look, from the White Council perspective.
No, Harry didn't "lie" about what happened with Justin; he may have been mistaken in small ways -- or even large ways -- but I think he told the truth as best he could.
But the WC doesn't employ magic to detect or coerce the truth.
And from what they can tell, things look awfully bad where Harry's concerned; it's unclear whether it'd be worse if he was lying or not!
(BTW, @Mira -- I've noted this as a repeated pattern of yours: you respond to something presented as an in-world perspective (how things seem to a character, given their limited Watsonian knowledge) as if it were a full-info Doylist/reader argument; it's very disconcerting).
-
It's also worth noting that Carlos... actually kinda has a point?
Like, Harry is acting sus as fuck in PT/BG.
Carlos: "Yo Man, we're kinda worried that you've be enthralled by the Totally not White Queen™. Can you talk to us about what's going on"
Harry: *Grounds staff and begins Channeling Magic* "FUCK YOU, I'M NOT SUS, YOU'RE SUS. FUCK OFF OR FIGHT ME".
Like, actually what the fuck dude. You treat your frenemies/enemies with less venom then you do you supposed friends/allies, and then go all 'boo hoo woe is me, why don't they believe me' when they don't trust you
...
The thing is: that's not what happened.
If Carlos had come to Harry with his concerns, that'd be one thing.
But it wasn't Carlos.
It was Regional Commander Ramirez, senior Warden... with both a combat-crew and one or more personally-invasive "detection" wizards, confronting Harry out of the blue and...errr... "probing" Harry without his consent.
No, Harry didn't respond well to that.
In fact, he couldn't cooperate with them. He doesn't know all those other wizards, their loyalties and ideologies. Maybe one of them is explicitly going to go debrief the Merlin about how best to take down Harry. Maybe another is in the "Dresden is a warlock we'll have to take down sooner or later; his black magic will corrupt him eventually, inevitably..." camp. He doesn't know, and so he cannot extend that kind of trust (the kind that Carlos, alone, might have elicited).
This is, BTW, exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say that this could still be Carlos trusting Harry and working to buff Harry's "rebel / bad-boy" cred, and build him up with the Black Hat crew: Carlos showed up with a bunch of freaking Wardens, when he knows that:
(a) Harry generally distrusts all Wardens (barring a few specific individuals)
(b) Harry hates having his privacy invaded
(c) Harry is actively trying to look like a Black Hat(tm).
So when Carlos shows up with a posse of unknown-to-Dresden Wardens and demands personal info and accountability... looks a lot like Carlos "aiding and abetting" those points a+b=c
-
The thing is: that's not what happened.
If Carlos had come to Harry with his concerns, that'd be one thing.
But it wasn't Carlos.
It was Regional Commander Ramirez, senior Warden... with both a combat-crew and one or more personally-invasive "detection" wizards, confronting Harry out of the blue and...errr... "probing" Harry without his consent.
No, Harry didn't respond well to that.
In fact, he couldn't cooperate with them. He doesn't know all those other wizards, their loyalties and ideologies. Maybe one of them is explicitly going to go debrief the Merlin about how best to take down Harry. Maybe another is in the "Dresden is a warlock we'll have to take down sooner or later; his black magic will corrupt him eventually, inevitably..." camp. He doesn't know, and so he cannot extend that kind of trust (the kind that Carlos, alone, might have elicited).
This is, BTW, exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say that this could still be Carlos trusting Harry and working to buff Harry's "rebel / bad-boy" cred, and build him up with the Black Hat crew: Carlos showed up with a bunch of freaking Wardens, when he knows that:
(a) Harry generally distrusts all Wardens (barring a few specific individuals)
(b) Harry hates having his privacy invaded
(c) Harry is actively trying to look like a Black Hat(tm).
So when Carlos shows up with a posse of unknown-to-Dresden Wardens and demands personal info and accountability... looks a lot like Carlos "aiding and abetting" those points a+b=c
I agree with you but you're making your argument on a bad basis.
The wardens that Carlos brought were some of his and Harry's best friends among the ranks. It was Carlos, Wild Bill, Hoshino and Chandler. But they did approach Harry in a tactless manner. They should have done it at Murphy's or Michael's or Mac's, not on a dark road in the country. Carlos could have then taken Harry aside and talked off the record.
Again, it's a matter of information. As readers we have it all, the characters have bits and pieces.
-
The thing is: that's not what happened.
If Carlos had come to Harry with his concerns, that'd be one thing.
But it wasn't Carlos.
It was Regional Commander Ramirez, senior Warden... with both a combat-crew and one or more personally-invasive "detection" wizards, confronting Harry out of the blue and...errr... "probing" Harry without his consent.
No, Harry didn't respond well to that.
In fact, he couldn't cooperate with them. He doesn't know all those other wizards, their loyalties and ideologies. Maybe one of them is explicitly going to go debrief the Merlin about how best to take down Harry. Maybe another is in the "Dresden is a warlock we'll have to take down sooner or later; his black magic will corrupt him eventually, inevitably..." camp. He doesn't know, and so he cannot extend that kind of trust (the kind that Carlos, alone, might have elicited).
This is, BTW, exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say that this could still be Carlos trusting Harry and working to buff Harry's "rebel / bad-boy" cred, and build him up with the Black Hat crew: Carlos showed up with a bunch of freaking Wardens, when he knows that:
(a) Harry generally distrusts all Wardens (barring a few specific individuals)
(b) Harry hates having his privacy invaded
(c) Harry is actively trying to look like a Black Hat(tm).
So when Carlos shows up with a posse of unknown-to-Dresden Wardens and demands personal info and accountability... looks a lot like Carlos "aiding and abetting" those points a+b=c
You are leaving out a key point which blows any trust Harry may have had when Carlos and company confronted him on the way back from the Raith estate. Earlier on the beach when Harry had had his run with Thomas in the opening chapter of Peace Talks, Carlos shows up and secretly puts a tracking device on Harry. This says that Harry was a target for some reason even before Thomas went off the rails. Then when they catch up to Harry later because sex can be detected on him, they jump to conclusions it was sex with Lara, and Harry isn't about to kiss and tell that it was with Murphy... Meanwhile Chandler is signaling Harry not to trust any of his fellow Wardens.. Confirming this is the fact that Carlos had secretly put a tracking device on Harry from the onset. Why? If it had happened post Thomas assassination, it would make some sense, but it happened before all of that went down. This screams that something was afoot to get Harry or to try and get Harry before all of this started, and Carlos was willing to go along..
I agree with you but you're making your argument on a bad basis.
The wardens that Carlos brought were some of his and Harry's best friends among the ranks. It was Carlos, Wild Bill, Hoshino and Chandler. But they did approach Harry in a tactless manner. They should have done it at Murphy's or Michael's or Mac's, not on a dark road in the country. Carlos could have then taken Harry aside and talked off the record.
Again, it's a matter of information. As readers we have it all, the characters have bits and pieces.
In this case we readers don't have it all either, why was the tracking device put on Harry in the first place? I also agree that the approach was tactless, they also jumped to conclusions, sex was detected on Harry, he came from a visit with Lara, ergo, he must have had sex with Lara, who's brother is Thomas, who is the accused. Not sure how many or if any of the Wardens know that Thomas is actually Harry's brother, they do know that they are friends. Also Carlos must know Harry well enough by now that approaching him in the manner they did would only backfire..
-
You are leaving out a key point which blows any trust Harry may have had when Carlos and company confronted him on the way back from the Raith estate. Earlier on the beach when Harry had had his run with Thomas in the opening chapter of Peace Talks, Carlos shows up and secretly puts a tracking device on Harry. This says that Harry was a target for some reason even before Thomas went off the rails ...
This isn't really relevant to the question of Carlos and where his trust really lies.
He and Harry agreed to a plan where Carlos was to suck up to the Merlin-loyalist mainstream, lean in on the letter-of-the-law enforcement, and generally work his way up the "traditional" ladder of trust inside the White Council... all the while keeping his ears and eyes open for discrepancies and oddities that might reveal "Black Council" agents.
Now, we can't tell: is he still doing that?
Carlos is acting that way... years later. Without ever touching base & confirming with Harry that he's still sticking to that plan. And similarly, he's acting like his trust in Harry is slipping, like he thinks Harry is compromised, maybe no longer trustworthy.
But then, according to their original plan, Harry was supposed to act just the opposite, the White Council member getting impatient with WC restrictions, making dubious alliances and even allying with rivals and enemies of the WC. Harry has sure been keeping up his end of things! So of course, "conservative Carlos" has to act like he distrusts Harry.
And we -- the readers -- are stuck wondering if Carlos really has turned against Harry, or if he's just playing his role so well he's fooled Harry, too!
... Not sure how many or if any of the Wardens know that Thomas is actually Harry's brother, they do know that they are friends ...
I think the first WC wizard besides Harry himself (and Margaret LaFey) to learn of Thomas' parentage (and being Harry's brother) was when Harry told Ebenezer near the end of PT.
... Also Carlos must know Harry well enough by now that approaching him in the manner they did would only backfire..
Indeed; I'd argue that this is decent evidence that Carlos is still on Harry's side: Carlos staged that little melodrama -- showdown on the dark road -- to demonstrate his own "I'm with the Merlin" credentials, face-down the "problem" Harry Dresden, and to let Harry in turn demonstrate his "I'm a loose cannon, with dubious alliances and possibly under the influence of Lara Raith" credentials.
By this analysis, Carlos was sending a message to Harry: "look how I set up a confrontation where you had to refuse cooperation, full of over-the-top melodrama, let's ham it up for the undoubted post-confrontation debrief and likely observers-in-the-dark."
-
Mira, I think this time I agree with Geek. I mean, you are right Harry is a victim of Justin, he is not a warlock and he respected the WC rules...but he was raised as a warlock, he sometimes acts like a warlock (full of rage) and he is verbally disrespectful. Do he presents like a Warlock-wonna-be. I think Harry is a sort of young Anakin Skywalker. He has the potential to become a great Jedi master, or Darth Vader. And the WC knows his potential for dark and that scares them. Aside from Eb, they did almost nothing to help him to remain in the light. Luckily, Harry, with the things he learnt from his dad and the guidance of people like Michael, is mostly good.
The Harry Anakin comparison works well. Both are the chosen ones, and have anger issues, trust issues etc.
The way i see it, the older WC members know he is a starborn and a destroyer but the question becomes whose.
The older wizards know prophecy is a dicy business. Just cause someone is a destroyer doesn't mean that they will destroy only your enemies what if you are what they were meant to destroy.
Most wizards are good at rules lawyering. Saying 1 think that could mean 3 or more different things, they have to be since faes are a thing. So it makes them worried about the destroyer / starborn in their midst
-
The Harry Anakin comparison works well. Both are the chosen ones, and have anger issues, trust issues etc.
The way i see it, the older WC members know he is a starborn and a destroyer but the question becomes whose.
The older wizards know prophecy is a dicy business. Just cause someone is a destroyer doesn't mean that they will destroy only your enemies what if you are what they were meant to destroy.
Most wizards are good at rules lawyering. Saying 1 think that could mean 3 or more different things, they have to be since faes are a thing. So it makes them worried about the destroyer / starborn in their midst
I agree with this for the most part. I think they know they need a starborn to lead in the coming BAT, their problem is it didn't go to plan. To have Margaret LeFey as the child's mother wasn't the plan. To have her murdered shortly after birth by the head of the White Court wasn't part of the plan. To have the child raised for his first six years on the run by his vanilla father without their protection wasn't part of the plan. To have that father die or be murdered and the child disappear into the swamp of the child protection agency until his talents awoke wasn't part of the plan. To have that child then adopted by an former warden turned warlock wasn't part of the plan. Not to realize that the child was being raised by that former warden turned warlock wasn't the plan. The fact that that former warden turned warlock was raising him to be a destroyer wasn't part of the plan. Then for that child at sixteen battle and kill that former warden turned warlock wasn't part of the plan.
That the sixteen year old kid would survive his trial at their hands, be declared a wizard, and then survive three years with the Blackstaff and go his very independent way wasn't part of the plan... In other words the White Council never has had control over this starborn child, and not being in control is something the White Council hates. That's a huge reason why they have never trusted Harry.
-
Luccio has known about Thomas since Turn Coat.
-
Luccio has known about Thomas since Turn Coat.
Has she?
I hadn't remembered.
-
Has she?
I hadn't remembered.
They talked about it in the car.
-
They talked about it in the car.
Do you have the chapter in Turn Coat where they talk? Don't doubt you, just want to read for context.
-
Chapter 28, as they are leaving Chateau Raith.
-
Chapter 28, as they are leaving Chateau Raith.
Thanks! I will go read it.
-
Chapter 28, as they are leaving Chateau Raith.
Ah yes, the infamous conversation where Luccio told Harry a version of his mother quite different from what he had heard from Thomas, Eb, Nicodemus, Chaunzoggoroth, and others...and didn't seem to notice. :lol:
-
This isn't really relevant to the question of Carlos and where his trust really lies.
He and Harry agreed to a plan where Carlos was to suck up to the Merlin-loyalist mainstream, lean in on the letter-of-the-law enforcement, and generally work his way up the "traditional" ladder of trust inside the White Council... all the while keeping his ears and eyes open for discrepancies and oddities that might reveal "Black Council" agents.
Now, we can't tell: is he still doing that?
Carlos is acting that way... years later. Without ever touching base & confirming with Harry that he's still sticking to that plan. And similarly, he's acting like his trust in Harry is slipping, like he thinks Harry is compromised, maybe no longer trustworthy.
But then, according to their original plan, Harry was supposed to act just the opposite, the White Council member getting impatient with WC restrictions, making dubious alliances and even allying with rivals and enemies of the WC. Harry has sure been keeping up his end of things! So of course, "conservative Carlos" has to act like he distrusts Harry.
And we -- the readers -- are stuck wondering if Carlos really has turned against Harry, or if he's just playing his role so well he's fooled Harry, too!
I think the first WC wizard besides Harry himself (and Margaret LaFey) to learn of Thomas' parentage (and being Harry's brother) was when Harry told Ebenezer near the end of PT.
Indeed; I'd argue that this is decent evidence that Carlos is still on Harry's side: Carlos staged that little melodrama -- showdown on the dark road -- to demonstrate his own "I'm with the Merlin" credentials, face-down the "problem" Harry Dresden, and to let Harry in turn demonstrate his "I'm a loose cannon, with dubious alliances and possibly under the influence of Lara Raith" credentials.
By this analysis, Carlos was sending a message to Harry: "look how I set up a confrontation where you had to refuse cooperation, full of over-the-top melodrama, let's ham it up for the undoubted post-confrontation debrief and likely observers-in-the-dark."
You've made a good argument, I'll grant you that. I think it could be right. I'm not saying I believe it, but I wouldn't rule it out, where I might have before I read this.
I think it might also be partly true. I think Carlos might be, partly, playing an act with Harry, but at the same time no longer sure about him, either. So his warnings at the confrontation might be both at once.
One thing Carlos said that could be read either way, or both at once, IIRC, was to advise Harry to stop talking before he said something he 'can't overlook', or words to that effect. That implies that he doesn't want to take Harry down...but it might also be a warning that Harry is close enough to the line that he can't rule out it coming to that.
There might be multiple meanings in play all at once in Carlos' actions in that scene.
-
Ah yes, the infamous conversation where Luccio told Harry a version of his mother quite different from what he had heard from Thomas, Eb, Nicodemus, Chaunzoggoroth, and others...and didn't seem to notice. :lol:
Thank you! I actually was going to post something very similar once I reread the chapter. My question is a bit different in that it was Luccio telling Harry that along with knowing who his mother was, at least she knew that Margaret had lived with Lord Raith and had a kid by him. I find it hard to believe that other wardens, and at least some of the Senior Council didn't figure out that Harry had a vampire for a half brother.. Or that as Blackstaff, Eb would not be in the know about this. But then again the White Council seems to be into a lot of willful ignorance, like it is also hard to believe that so few know that Eb is Harry's grandfather.
-
I think there was a statement by Jim Butcher that collectively the Senior Council members know everything there is to know about Harry Dresden.
The problem is that they don't share that information with each other.
APG
-
I think there was a statement by Jim Butcher that collectively the Senior Council members know everything there is to know about Harry Dresden.
The problem is that they don't share that information with each other.
APG
Then they know everything, they just don't talk about it.. However from the times he has been called on the carpet before the Senior Council, they have twelve different opinions about what they know.
-
Then they know everything, they just don't talk about it.. However from the times he has been called on the carpet before the Senior Council, they have twelve different opinions about what they know.
No individual knows everything or even most of the things Harry has done. And they do not share information unless asked and event then only grudgingly. So, they tend to form their opinions on incomplete information without context and therefore leap to summary and erroneous conclusions. That old adages about "assumptions" come into play too often here.
-
No individual knows everything or even most of the things Harry has done. And they do not share information unless asked and event then only grudgingly. So, they tend to form their opinions on incomplete information without context and therefore leap to summary and erroneous conclusions. That old adages about "assumptions" come into play too often here.
But it isn't about what Harry has done, it's about who his mother was. If Luccio knew that she gave birth to Lord Raith's son, and it is common knowledge that Harry is Margaret's son, then logic says she isn't the only one who figured out who Harry's brother is.
Thought just entered my exhausted sweaty head, someone on the Council is also infested with Nemesis, set up Justine, to entrap Thomas, knowing that Harry and Lara both would move heaven and earth to free him.. The idea being that in the process and aftermath Harry would either violate or come close enough to be booted from the Council, and then be targeted and killed.. Thus getting Nemesis's future star born foe out of the way.
-
But it isn't about what Harry has done, it's about who his mother was. If Luccio knew that she gave birth to Lord Raith's son, and it is common knowledge that Harry is Margaret's son, then logic says she isn't the only one who figured out who Harry's brother is.
Thought just entered my exhausted sweaty head, someone on the Council is also infested with Nemesis, set up Justine, to entrap Thomas, knowing that Harry and Lara both would move heaven and earth to free him.. The idea being that in the process and aftermath Harry would either violate or come close enough to be booted from the Council, and then be targeted and killed.. Thus getting Nemesis's future star born foe out of the way.
Luccio reached her conclusions working from the opposite point of the logic chain. She knew that Margaret was Harry's mother, and that Thomas was Lord Raith's son, but she didn't connect them until Harry revealed that they were brothers. Until that point, she had no idea that Maragret had another child, much less that the child was Lord Wraith's.
-
Thank you! I actually was going to post something very similar once I reread the chapter. My question is a bit different in that it was Luccio telling Harry that along with knowing who his mother was, at least she knew that Margaret had lived with Lord Raith and had a kid by him.
That she had hooked up with LR, yes. But Luccio didn't know that she'd had a child with LR until Harry more or less told her during that conversation. That caught her by surprise, it caused her to refer to Margaret as a 'selfish bitch' when she found out. Even Eb didn't know about that.
-
That she had hooked up with LR, yes. But Luccio didn't know that she'd had a child with LR until Harry more or less told her during that conversation. That caught her by surprise, it caused her to refer to Margaret as a 'selfish bitch' when she found out. Even Eb didn't know about that.
I didn't read it that way, the way I read it was Harry, who was caught by surprise that she knew or had figured it out.
Page 208 Turn Coat, Luccio admits she knew Harry's mother and he starts to ask questions about her. Then Luccio says;
Anastasia gave me a rather worn smile. "But she didn't spend all that time in Faerie, did she?"
I looked up at the rear view mirror, back toward Chateau Raith.
"And Thomas is the son of the White King himself."
I didn't answer.
She exhaled heavily. "You look so different from him. Except perhaps for something in the jaw. The shape of the eyes."
Then when they get back to the apartment, Harry asks her; same page
"Are you going to tell anyone?" I asked quietly.
She looked out the window as she considered the question. Then she said, "Not unless it is relevant."
Granted it could go either way, but when Luccio says that Margaret didn't spend all of her time with the Fae, I think she already knew who Thomas was. And in truth, if anyone on the Council took the time to think about it, they would have figured it out as well. If Eb didn't, I think it was because he chose to keep his head in the sand about having a vampire for a grandson.
-
You've made a good argument, I'll grant you that. I think it could be right. I'm not saying I believe it, but I wouldn't rule it out, where I might have before I read this ...
Yes; this is exactly my point: I'm not saying that I believe it, either; but neither do I rule it out!
I call it the case of Carlos' "Schrödinger's Loyalty" -- it's in a fundamentally unknowable state, with surrounding facts that support either one or the other (or in fact several intermediate states) and we won't actually know until Jim writes us a resolution.
I am pretty sure Jim is deliberately leaving this issue unresolved for the readers. I don't know if he's undecided, or just playing up the ambiguity for a later "dramatic reveal."
-
I do not think everyone can so easily deduce Thomas and Harry are brothers unless they see them together and see the way they behave with each other. The White Council in general does not know the details of Margaret time with Raith and vampires do not look their age. They probably do not know much about Lord Raith lovers. I do think Mira may be right about Eb though, that he was basically in denial. Because I suspect he knew more about his daughter's life after leaving the Council that the other wizards knew. So he could have made some numbers, see that the dates were right...and that it could explain Harry's friendship with a white vampire.
-
I do not think everyone can so easily deduce Thomas and Harry are brothers unless they see them together and see the way they behave with each other. The White Council in general does not know the details of Margaret time with Raith and vampires do not look their age. They probably do not know much about Lord Raith lovers. I do think Mira may be right about Eb though, that he was basically in denial. Because I suspect he knew more about his daughter's life after leaving the Council that the other wizards knew. So he could have made some numbers, see that the dates were right...and that it could explain Harry's friendship with a white vampire.
I don't think Eb had a clue.
He was thunderstruck, like it had never occurred to him.
Now, that itself may have been denial: he certainly knew Margaret was hanging around Lord Raith, and Harry has certainly attracted plenty of suspicion of being "under the influence" (i.e. having sex with) for hanging around with whampires. So Eb not even considering that issue speaks to some denial!
But specifically Thomas being his grandson... no, I think the surprise was complete; after all, whampire fertility is very very low, and (mortal) mothers who survive even lower (whamp moms, I think, can boost their own survival by increasing their feedings to offset the proto-whamp who feeds on them). So he wasn't willing to face the idea that his precious baby-Maggie was Doing the Dirty (and doubtless enjoying it very much) with nasty ol' papa-Raith, but even if she had been, he confidently expected no offspring.
-
It is weird to me the way people who is not in the know behave about Thomas and Harry. Some of them, like most White Council members, act like they do not want to know, as if it was a private issue who Harry wants to have sex with...except in this case the person could, in theory, completely bend Harry's will and mind. Eb, on top of that, acts like if Harry was having a normal boyfriend that grandpa did not like, even when Harry never gave any sign of liking men and never would feel inclined to get involved with the vampires just for lust. I do not even remember if Eb knows that Harry is aware that Margaret was hiding from the White Court when she died. If he knows, even worse. Why would be Harry willing to have a boyfriend from the vampires that hated his mom? And, if Harry was so desperate for the lust of a wampire, why Thomas and not Lara?
Then other people also act as, yes, well, Harry has a friend, there are rumours, but it is not clear. We think they are just friends. The friend is dangerous, but that is par for the course with Harry. And that is all.
-
... even when Harry never gave any sign of liking men and never would feel inclined to get involved with the vampires just for lust ... And, if Harry was so desperate for the lust of a wampire, why Thomas and not Lara? ...
I (strongly) suspect that the victims' sexual preference has very little relevance to a strong whampire like Thomas or Lara; they could have almost anyone they want, male or female, gay or straight, regardless of "sexual preference."
Many wizards have enough strength of will to resist... but likely not all of them. And a whampire that "got the drop" on a wizard, closed-in to grappling/wrestling range, could likely overwhelm many of those who resisted the remote-mojo.
Remember how hard it was for Carlos to resist Lara (he had to invoke a Soulgaze, to see her Demon)... and Lara wasn't even trying (not in earnest) -- she was just testing him a bit.
Now imagine if she was trying... if she had invoked her Demon to super-speed into grips with him before he could react, when he was already stunned by her presence.
And Carlos is an unusually combat-capable wizard! Not in the same class as Harry & others we've seen, but way better than most.
So from the POV of the average WC observer, Harry hanging out with Thomas -- and then Lara -- looks like a high-probability case of one or both of them having "gotten to" him, one way or another. Not a certainty, by any means! But likely.
-
I agree both Thomas and Lara can have anyone they want if they are trying, but I do not think they can have a relationship with them when they act like normal persons, if there is not previous sexual interest. I mean, sure, Harry could have been in Thomas thrall, but then, I think he would not be able to do normal wizard things. And if they really think that Thomas "captured" Harry, then they should have do a research to try to save him, or, at the very least, completely cut their ties with him so Harry cannot tell the whampires any Council secret. That is precisely my point, everybody seems to be disgusted that Harry is with Thomas, but it is half-assed. Like, they should take one of these two positions a) panic that Harry in on a whampire pocket. Try to save him or consider him lost b) shrug and decide that Harry is not in danger and he can choose who to date/have sex/whatever. But they seem to be in a middle ground, which I do not understand well.
-
I (strongly) suspect that the victims' sexual preference has very little relevance to a strong whampire like Thomas or Lara; they could have almost anyone they want, male or female, gay or straight, regardless of "sexual preference."
I actually wonder about that. In theory, maybe. But I wonder if the preferences of the vampire matters in that. For ex, we're told the reason LR didn't mindrape Thomas (or his dead brothers) into submission is that his own tastes didn't run that way. I wonder if the whammy doesn't work as well if the vampire is totally uninterested in the target.
Also, there have been hints that the older Wizards can cancel the whammy entirely. IIRC, there was a scene where Lara was spinning the whammy on Harry and Stacy, and Harry was struggling to keep his thoughts straight, and then Stacy did something and it all just suddenly stopped.
-
I didn't read it that way, the way I read it was Harry, who was caught by surprise that she knew or had figured it out.
Page 208 Turn Coat, Luccio admits she knew Harry's mother and he starts to ask questions about her. Then Luccio says;
Anastasia gave me a rather worn smile. "But she didn't spend all that time in Faerie, did she?"
I looked up at the rear view mirror, back toward Chateau Raith.
"And Thomas is the son of the White King himself."
I didn't answer.
She exhaled heavily. "You look so different from him. Except perhaps for something in the jaw. The shape of the eyes."
Granted it could go either way, but when Luccio says that Margaret didn't spend all of her time with the Fae, I think she already knew who Thomas was. And in truth, if anyone on the Council took the time to think about it, they would have figured it out as well. If Eb didn't, I think it was because he chose to keep his head in the sand about having a vampire for a grandson.
Yeah, that part you could read either way, but there's an earlier part of the conversation that gives a different twist. Justine had said something during the conversation back at Chez Raith, and Harry had hoped Stacy hadn't noticed it. She had, and she brings it up during the ride afterward. He tells her he can't discuss it with the Captain of the Wardens, but maybe he can with Anastasia. Then he asks her if she has any living family. They talk about that for a moment, and Harry mentions growing up as an orphan.
Then Harry adds, his throat tight:
"And if I did find someone, I would do anything necessary to protect him. Anything.
It's at that point that Stacy puts the final pieces together.
Anastasia looked out the window, letting out a hiss of what sounded like anger. "Margaret. You selfish bitch."
When you add that part in, it looks like Stacy knew that Margaret had disappeared off the Wardens' radar, unaccounted for, for five years or so. She also knew that Margaret had had dealings with Lord Raith. It was Justine's comment (which may or may not have been Nemesis-related) that give her the clue that led her very sharp mind to put the pieces together and realize that Harry and Thomas are half-brothers.
That whole conversation is actually very important. It reveals a lot about why the Council does what it does. Stacy says specifically that the Laws of Magic are 'not about justice', or fairness. She tells Harry a lot about his mother.
The weird thing about the conversation, though, is that what Stacy says doesn't match what he heard from Eb, Nicodemus, Chaunzoggorth, Lord Raith, Thomas, etc. All their versions more or less tally, it's Stacy's version that is the odd one out. Now it could be that Stacy is just leaving out the worst of it to spare Harry's feelings. But the really weird thing is that Harry's internal monologue doesn't seem to notice the discrepancy.
-
That whole conversation is actually very important. It reveals a lot about why the Council does what it does. Stacy says specifically that the Laws of Magic are 'not about justice', or fairness. She tells Harry a lot about his mother.
The weird thing about the conversation, though, is that what Stacy says doesn't match what he heard from Eb, Nicodemus, Chaunzoggorth, Lord Raith, Thomas, etc. All their versions more or less tally, it's Stacy's version that is the odd one out. Now it could be that Stacy is just leaving out the worst of it to spare Harry's feelings. But the really weird thing is that Harry's internal monologue doesn't seem to notice the discrepancy.
Would have to go back and reread the whole chapter again. One thing that could be a factor is the fact that Anastasia was heavily under the influence of Peabody ink at the time, and was trying to manipulate Harry. As per Harry's last conversation with Rashid in the infirmary when he was told about the ink, how much under control Anastasia was by Peabody. Long and the short of it Anastasia was basically following orders to get close to Harry. At the time when she told Harry about his mother, he had real feelings for her. People in love don't always have the best judgement, thinking she loved him may have led Harry to trust everything she told him, even if it clashed with what others had told him.
-
... I mean, sure, Harry could have been in Thomas thrall, but then, I think he would not be able to do normal wizard things ...
I think if the whampire just crushes the wizard's will with overwhelming lust, said wizard likely couldn't muster the focus to flickum his bickus, iykwim.
But a more careful, slower seduction... or giving them some recovery time (while still keeping them on a psychic leash)... wizards treated that way could (I think) still be very capable.
I don't recall which story it was, where Harry discovered just such whampire controls buried in a lawyer's mind, leaving the very-finely-disciplined legal intellect essentially unimpaired. I presume it would be similar for a wizard, and their mental discipline.
... And if they really think that Thomas "captured" Harry, then they should have do a research to try to save him, or, at the very least, completely cut their ties with him so Harry cannot tell the whampires any Council secret. That is precisely my point, everybody seems to be disgusted that Harry is with Thomas, but it is half-assed. Like, they should take one of these two positions a) panic that Harry in on a whampire pocket. Try to save him or consider him lost b) shrug and decide that Harry is not in danger and he can choose who to date/have sex/whatever. But they seem to be in a middle ground, which I do not understand well.
I find this very well-reasoned & persuasive. I can only "make excuses" for the White Council here; explain how their motivation could work out to the actions they did. They clearly didn't do things they "should" do (as you clearly laid out, above).
To begin with, I think the WC is stultifying under centuries of tradition and multiple layers of no-longer-relevant bureaucratic policy. In particular, much of the supernatural world is roiling and unstable and innovating, in light of the upcoming Starborn Cycle terminus; but the WC hasn't adjusted or adapted. In particular, they have a tradition of letting every wizard do whatever, independently, and only step in with Warden Action when the wizard goes too far. So they may be a bit suspicious of Harry being whampire-dominated, but that's his business until/unless it goes towards breaking the Laws of Magic.
That scene in Peace Talks where Ramirez & Co confront Harry about Lara, that's the WC beginning to "take official notice."
There's also, I think, some "we are the White Council" arrogant blindness going on, related to the aforementioned uptick in supernatural action (which the WC hasn't matched, or adapted to). They don't/can't believe any group would be so self-confident as to attempt such a brazen subversion of a WC wizard and warden.
The WC hasn't noticed -- as an organization -- that many of the other supernatural powers have in fact become much more-active and much more-aggressive, and that they -- the WC -- are beginning to look (to those predators) much like an aging buck: still impressive, but no longer quite up to the task of protecting the herd... or itself.
-
I find this very well-reasoned & persuasive. I can only "make excuses" for the White Council here; explain how their motivation could work out to the actions they did. They clearly didn't do things they "should" do (as you clearly laid out, above).
Thank you.
And you are probably right about all what you said. I wonder what the supernatural world in general will think about the White Council after the Titan attack. It will be known that they had a good part in the action.
-
... I wonder what the supernatural world in general will think about the White Council after the Titan attack. It will be known that they had a good part in the action.
Yeah.
The accorded nations all saw the WC fighting -- and fighting very effectively! -- at the Battle of Chicago. It may give them pause in their various subtle sniping attcks...
-
To begin with, I think the WC is stultifying under centuries of tradition and multiple layers of no-longer-relevant bureaucratic policy. In particular, much of the supernatural world is roiling and unstable and innovating, in light of the upcoming Starborn Cycle terminus; but the WC hasn't adjusted or adapted. In particular, they have a tradition of letting every wizard do whatever, independently, and only step in with Warden Action when the wizard goes too far. So they may be a bit suspicious of Harry being whampire-dominated, but that's his business until/unless it goes towards breaking the Laws of Magic.
That scene in Peace Talks where Ramirez & Co confront Harry about Lara, that's the WC beginning to "take official notice."
There's also, I think, some "we are the White Council" arrogant blindness going on, related to the aforementioned uptick in supernatural action (which the WC hasn't matched, or adapted to). They don't/can't believe any group would be so self-confident as to attempt such a brazen subversion of a WC wizard and warden.
The WC hasn't noticed -- as an organization -- that many of the other supernatural powers have in fact become much more-active and much more-aggressive, and that they -- the WC -- are beginning to look (to those predators) much like an aging buck: still impressive, but no longer quite up to the task of protecting the herd... or itself.
I think that's probably kind of inherent to the nature of the Council. It's made up of people who live for centuries, and the most influential, powerful, and potent of them are centuries old. An ingrained conservatism would be expected.
The more so, of course, because nine times out of then, they would be right. It's probably normal for the Council that the youngish Wizards and Witches, say anyone in their first lifetime-span (by which I mean someone from membership to 70 or 80) would likely get excited about this or that Super-Duper-Unprecedented Major Big Deal all the time. The mature and older Wizards and Witches, though, have seen it all before...and before...and before. They don't get all that excited about things, and like I said, 9 times out of 10 they'll be right.
(Sort of like the interaction of parents and teenagers, on a grander scale.)
We know that this is the tenth time, that what's going on really is a Big Fat Deal, but it would naturally take time for the older Councilors to recognize that.
OTOH, as JB has said, when the Council takes the gloves off and starts punching for real, people feel it. They're a major power when they feel motivated, as Kemmler learned and as we've occasionally been seeing.
-
Would have to go back and reread the whole chapter again. One thing that could be a factor is the fact that Anastasia was heavily under the influence of Peabody ink at the time, and was trying to manipulate Harry. As per Harry's last conversation with Rashid in the infirmary when he was told about the ink, how much under control Anastasia was by Peabody. Long and the short of it Anastasia was basically following orders to get close to Harry. At the time when she told Harry about his mother, he had real feelings for her. People in love don't always have the best judgement, thinking she loved him may have led Harry to trust everything she told him, even if it clashed with what others had told him.
The thing is, it's not so much that Harry did or didn't trust her, it's that he didn't appear to even have noticed the discrepancy. That's the weird part.
-
I think that's probably kind of inherent to the nature of the Council. It's made up of people who live for centuries, and the most influential, powerful, and potent of them are centuries old. An ingrained conservatism would be expected ...
I've got a suspicion it depends on who's the Merlin, and the other Senior Council.
McCoy was advocating for an aggressive/activist stance for years. If he'd had 2-3 like-minded members on the SC -- and/or someone like that was the Merlin -- then I think the other Supernaturals would be looking at the wizards as much "harder" targets.
I suspect the prior Merlin (the one before Langtry) may have had such an outlook; or maybe Younger Langtry did -- when he first became Merlin -- but the one we see now is older and "wiser" and much more cautious...
-
I suspect the prior Merlin (the one before Langtry) may have had such an outlook; or maybe Younger Langtry did -- when he first became Merlin -- but the one we see now is older and "wiser" and much more cautious...
Or so set in his ways that he can no longer adjust to the modern world.
-
I think that's probably kind of inherent to the nature of the Council. It's made up of people who live for centuries, and the most influential, powerful, and potent of them are centuries old. An ingrained conservatism would be expected.
The more so, of course, because nine times out of then, they would be right. It's probably normal for the Council that the youngish Wizards and Witches, say anyone in their first lifetime-span (by which I mean someone from membership to 70 or 80) would likely get excited about this or that Super-Duper-Unprecedented Major Big Deal all the time. The mature and older Wizards and Witches, though, have seen it all before...and before...and before. They don't get all that excited about things, and like I said, 9 times out of 10 they'll be right.
(Sort of like the interaction of parents and teenagers, on a grander scale.)
We know that this is the tenth time, that what's going on really is a Big Fat Deal, but it would naturally take time for the older Councilors to recognize that.
OTOH, as JB has said, when the Council takes the gloves off and starts punching for real, people feel it. They're a major power when they feel motivated, as Kemmler learned and as we've occasionally been seeing.
I think as fans we misunderstand the purpose of the WC. Its to prevent the use of black magic. Fighting to protect humanity is Secondary. Think of the UN. Its main function that is mostly overlooked these days is to prevent direct war between the Superpowers, major, and regional powers. Preventing war in general is a secondary purpose. As long as there isn’t a global conflict its succeeding.
The point about the older wizards hearing Harry’s ideas and rolling their eyes because they think when his older his veiws will change makes sense. How many things did 14 yr old u promise he would never do that 30 yr old u is doing.
How many things did single u promise not to do when u got married that u are doing now. Harry’s idea might seem new and novel to him but to the others they are like cute kid.
-
I think as fans we misunderstand the purpose of the WC. Its to prevent the use of black magic. Fighting to protect humanity is Secondary. Think of the UN. Its main function that is mostly overlooked these days is to prevent direct war between the Superpowers, major, and regional powers. Preventing war in general is a secondary purpose. As long as there isn’t a global conflict its succeeding.
The point about the older wizards hearing Harry’s ideas and rolling their eyes because they think when his older his veiws will change makes sense. How many things did 14 yr old u promise he would never do that 30 yr old u is doing.
How many things did single u promise not to do when u got married that u are doing now. Harry’s idea might seem new and novel to him but to the others they are like cute kid.
There is truth in that, as in paraphrasing Mark Twain, " I thought my father was a dumb ass when I was 20, but was surprised how intelligent he seemed when I turned 21." I know that isn't exactly correct but you get the idea.. However some ideas do get out dated, and there is wisdom in realizing that.
-
I think as fans we misunderstand the purpose of the WC. Its to prevent the use of black magic. Fighting to protect humanity is Secondary. Think of the UN. Its main function that is mostly overlooked these days is to prevent direct war between the Superpowers, major, and regional powers. Preventing war in general is a secondary purpose. As long as there isn’t a global conflict its succeeding.
The point about the older wizards hearing Harry’s ideas and rolling their eyes because they think when his older his veiws will change makes sense. How many things did 14 yr old u promise he would never do that 30 yr old u is doing.
How many things did single u promise not to do when u got married that u are doing now. Harry’s idea might seem new and novel to him but to the others they are like cute kid.
And even with Harry, they're right a lot of the time, as we've been seeing.
Over time, Harry reluctantly came to the realization that the Council's hard-line attitude about warlocks is probably a necessity. Another time (I think it was in Changes), he finds himself musing about the necessity of keeping some magical knowledge secret, and then thinks with a start that he's 'turning into his teachers'.
-
I think as fans we misunderstand the purpose of the WC. Its to prevent the use of black magic. Fighting to protect humanity is Secondary.
Stacy said as much to Harry in their conversation in Turn Coat. It's not so much that protecting humanity is secondary, as that by restraining black magic, and evil wizards, that's the biggest single way they can usually protect humanity. The megathreats and monsters they take down are an issue, but they come along much more rarely than warlocks, and often when they do turn up it's a warlock that precipitates the threat.
-
And even with Harry, they're right a lot of the time, as we've been seeing.
Over time, Harry reluctantly came to the realization that the Council's hard-line attitude about warlocks is probably a necessity. Another time (I think it was in Changes), he finds himself musing about the necessity of keeping some magical knowledge secret, and then thinks with a start that he's 'turning into his teachers'.
Zero tolerance is easy and it works, but throwing out the baby with the bath water is never a good solution. I think that's what Harry was trying to say.
-
Zero tolerance is easy and it works, but throwing out the baby with the bath water is never a good solution. I think that's what Harry was trying to say.
I think you're right on all points.
But the WC is just too short-handed now -- after the losses of the Ramp-War -- and doesn't have the resources to catch those babies. Before that, I think they were too blind, not seeing the issue in the proper perspective.
Would the modern WC -- with the lessons learned -- use the luxury of time & resources (they had in prior decades) to "catch those babies", if they had such luxuries today? No telling, I think.
Will Harry leverage the Paranet&c into an alt-White-Council, intercepting proto-warlocks with the much-more-numerous mortal membership? I honestly hope so, I think it's got a lot of fun potential; it'd be (or become) a spin-off series, I think); but again: no way to tell, until/unless Jim writes it (or WoJ addresses it, yea or nay).
-
Would the modern WC -- with the lessons learned -- use the luxury of time & resources (they had in prior decades) to "catch those babies", if they had such luxuries today? No telling, I think.
I think the Merlin was right for the most part, they are shorter handed than they were and the consequences of a warlock slipping through is disastrous. However having said that, I think Harry was also right, the fact that they don't even bother with trials for the most part anymore and many of them are kangaroo courts, says the WC could take more trouble and risk to catch a lot of those babies, but it is easier just to toss the bathwater without checking the baby.
-
I think the Merlin was right for the most part, they are shorter handed than they were and the consequences of a warlock slipping through is disastrous. However having said that, I think Harry was also right, the fact that they don't even bother with trials for the most part anymore and many of them are kangaroo courts, says the WC could take more trouble and risk to catch a lot of those babies, but it is easier just to toss the bathwater without checking the baby.
*raises hand* Sorry to interrupt but, it's a "kangaroo court" an idiom? I had never heard of it. I imagine for context that it is a mock court, something for appearances, but I am intrigued.
On topic, so I was not frowned upon, I agree with Mira about the WC. I also think that so far the books have been underusing the paranet, but perhpas this is going to change, with more hackers around and Bob being able to access the internet. I mean, with Harry, our narrator, not being able to use computers, it was difficult to see what was going on with the paranet. But just as the muggle, ehrm, vanilla mortals are more and more dependent of internet, the paranet is probably exploding (mostly away of Harry's awareness until now).
-
raises hand* Sorry to interrupt but, it's a "kangaroo court" an idiom? I had never heard of it. I imagine for context that it is a mock court, something for appearances, but I am intrigued.
Essentially a kangaroo court is a mock court, a set up with the verdict predetermined by those doing the trying.
-
Ah, that is what i thought. Thank you!
-
Essentially a kangaroo court is a mock court, a set up with the verdict predetermined by those doing the trying.
Yeah, what she said.
Predetermined result, going through the motions for show (PR, spin-control, etc).
(I note that "mock" court/trial also has another meaning: a "practice" trial or other not-real event; but without any legal weight, either: a "kangaroo court" usually carries the implication of there being genuine consequences following the "conviction." So calling it a "mock" trial doesn't necessarily distinguish between the innocuous "only for practice" trial and the malign "only for show, but with real consequences" trial).
-
Thank you both. It is a funny idiom.
-
Thank you both. It is a funny idiom.
Idioms often are!
"Raining cats and dogs."
"Pulling my leg."
"Going cold turkey."
etc.
-
Indeed!
You have not idea how confusing it is for me with some of those. By the way. We have an idiom very similar in meaning to "pulling my leg" but it would translate as "pulling the hair". It is a little more complicated, because if you actually pull someone by grabbing their hair, that would be "tirar del pelo", but the idiom for when someone is pranking you is "tomar el pelo", which is...softer. Like taking someone hair in your hand but not actually pulling it. But anyways, it is about hair and not legs.
-
Indeed!
You have not idea how confusing it is for me with some of those. By the way. We have an idiom very similar in meaning to "pulling my leg" but it would translate as "pulling the hair". It is a little more complicated, because if you actually pull someone by grabbing their hair, that would be "tirar del pelo", but the idiom for when someone is pranking you is "tomar el pelo", which is...softer. Like taking someone hair in your hand but not actually pulling it. But anyways, it is about hair and not legs.
Oh, I'm quite aware that other languages have their odd/absurd idioms, too!
So no, I'm not surprised you find English difficult in this way... as with many things, English is just a bit worse in this regard than most languages are.
You may have heard: other languages have "loanwords." English drags the other language down an alleyway, hits it over the head, and goes through the pockets for loose vocabulary and grammar.
-
I love that joke :)
But seriously, I never tried to say English was worse than any other language. Just that it is the foreign language I use the most, so it is the one that usually baffles me with something like "it is raining cats and dogs". Or, well, Snowleopard loved to tell the story of when I was new here and I thought that "going commando" meant something like "going berserk" :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
-
I love that joke :)
But seriously, I never tried to say English was worse than any other language. Just that it is the foreign language I use the most, so it is the one that usually baffles me with something like "it is raining cats and dogs". Or, well, Snowleopard loved to tell the story of when I was new here and I thought that "going commando" meant something like "going berserk" :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
LMAO
Blood Rites: Gowan Commando.
There are lots of examples in the books, when I thought: this must be an idiom or something. Thank Google I could look some of them up. But I don't know how many I've been missing.
One always learns more.
-
Yeah they went South on the Carlos character. Without any justification. At least not as yet. We might need a book with carlos's viewpoint
Carlos has Harry come back from the dead is now a winter knight and then has Molly attack him. Isn’t that enough to push the man against Dresden?
He was loyal to Harry but since changes, so much has happened and so little trust has been gained. I can understand why he is suspicious of Harry now
-
Carlos has Harry come back from the dead is now a winter knight and then has Molly attack him. Isn’t that enough to push the man against Dresden?
He was loyal to Harry but since changes, so much has happened and so little trust has been gained. I can understand why he is suspicious of Harry now
Yes, a lot has happened, I still think someone on the Senior Council got to him. Remember Carlos was part of the plot to entrap Harry by putting that tracker on him.
-
I wouldn’t be surpsied if this is the case. If seemed quite off in fact all the wardens did.
I feel a lot when on in changes with regards to the council that we just haven’t been told. Essentially they implied the council was about to fall. Was it Lucio who said she couldn’t speak…. Then nothing. Coincidently we had the green guy step in as well. All this happened after the events of turn coat when the council was severely weakened. I think the events of changes were one huge cats poor, by the black hats to infiltrate the council. They got rid of a huge liability with the reds and Dresden was off their radar for a little while too. We think the good guys won. It was the black hats that won but we just haven’t seen that yet.
-
Carlos has Harry come back from the dead is now a winter knight and then has Molly attack him. Isn’t that enough to push the man against Dresden?
He was loyal to Harry but since changes, so much has happened and so little trust has been gained. I can understand why he is suspicious of Harry now
Yeah, no question that enough has happened to make it understandable if Carlos really has come to the conclusion that Langtry was right all along. I myself, as I have said, suspect that in fact Carlos is probably of divided mind. I suspect he kind of wants to believe in Harry...but can't quite anymore. I suspect that Carlos suspects that Harry is in the process of going off the rails and doesn't even realize it himself.
-
I think that is true. After all, Harry himself was worried about becoming a monster after becoming the Winter Knight. And so, Carlos thinks the same is possible. I still do not justify all Carlos' actions but I can admit that his fears are reasonable.
-
I think that is true. After all, Harry himself was worried about becoming a monster after becoming the Winter Knight. And so, Carlos thinks the same is possible. I still do not justify all Carlos' actions but I can admit that his fears are reasonable.
Yes, but his injuries from his encounter with Molly I believe hurt Carlos more deeply mentally and emotionally, than it did physically.
How can Carlos begin to understand what happened when he tried to make love to Molly, when Molly herself doesn't or didn't understand? This creates fear and paranoia and you can bet that someone on the Senior Council took advantage of that. Yes, since Carlos is a leader, his fellow Wardens went along, but not all of them.
-
Maybe the point has already made; if so, excuse the repetition.
Carlos knew Molly before she assumed the Winter Lady mantle and trusted her, in no way expecting that Molly would severely injure him when he attempted to get intimate with her in a wholly consensual situation (or what her mantle did to him, but same thing from Carlos' perspective). So he's seen what Molly's Winter mantle does irrespective of Molly's wishes/decisions and how irrelevant the consequences to a human are to her mantle.
Can we expect that Carlos would think that the Winter Knight's mantle would have some different, more gentle effect on Harry? Carlos must see Harry as extremely dangerous and inherently unpredictable, especially after what Carlos and the White Council saw and what Harry did during BG (and now Harry has a Titan bound to his will - and White Knight Harry may have the same power over the entities imprisoned by Demonreach). And with all the deaths, the WC held Dresden culpable to some degree for Chicago (even if it was simply because Dresden should have come to the WC sooner and been more open).
Seems to me Carlos' position is imminently understandable.
-
Maybe the point has already made; if so, excuse the repetition.
Carlos knew Molly before she assumed the Winter Lady mantle and trusted her, in no way expecting that Molly would severely injure him when he attempted to get intimate with her in a wholly consensual situation (or what her mantle did to him, but same thing from Carlos' perspective). So he's seen what Molly's Winter mantle does irrespective of Molly's wishes/decisions and how irrelevant the consequences to a human are to her mantle.
Can we expect that Carlos would think that the Winter Knight's mantle would have some different, more gentle effect on Harry? Carlos must see Harry as extremely dangerous and inherently unpredictable, especially after what Carlos and the White Council saw and what Harry did during BG (and now Harry has a Titan bound to his will - and White Knight Harry may have the same power over the entities imprisoned by Demonreach). And with all the deaths, the WC held Dresden culpable to some degree for Chicago (even if it was simply because Dresden should have come to the WC sooner and been more open).
Seems to me Carlos' position is imminently understandable.
Understandable, but it doesn't mean that it is the right. The deaths that the WC pinned on Harry were those who were Fomor and were really not human anymore, plus when the WC made that determination Harry had no credible defense to testify in his behalf. It also wouldn't have made any difference if Harry had come to them sooner about the coming attack, he found out about the same time they did.
It's Warden Harry not Winter Knight Harry that has that kind of power on the island.
What happened to Molly and Carlos was a dirty trick played on her by Mab because she never told Molly all the rules regarding being the Winter Lady. Yes, it makes Carlos' reaction understandable, it also explains a lot of Maeve's sexual frustration which led to her down fall.
-
Also, as far as I know, Harry does not know what Molly did to Carlos. So he never talked with him about that. Carlos may think that Harry supported Molly not only because it is his duty as WK but because he is basically brainwashed to think she is right.
-
I want to make a statement about the OP, because I haven't made a post in this thread before. Then I am going to make a separate post about the White Council though it will have to wait until tomorrow because I have a lot to say. I'll just tease that I have a totally different take on the Council's attitude towards Harry than I've read so far in this thread.
"Has Carlos sided with the Merlin against Harry?" Turn that idea around. Has the Arthur Langtry, A.K.A. the Merlin, attempted to recruit Carlos Ramirez to his point of view? We don't have any proof of this, but it makes a great deal of sense that Arthur would at least make the attempt to do so.
There is a description of two characters in the John Le Carre novel "Tinker, Taylor, Soldier Spy" that would seem to fit the Merlin and the late Warden Donald Morgan quite well. Together, these two characters were seen by their fellow members of British Intelligence as "the iron fist inside the iron glove." One of them was higher up in "The Circus" (MI6 I guess) and involved in planning intelligence operations while the other character was performing the actual field work. The one who got his hands dirty, so to speak. Arthur Langtry and Warden Morgan might have been described that way.
The Merlin probably feels the need to replace Morgan. Someone high up in the Wardens. Someone who can; to a degree, monitor the activities of one Harry Dresden. Though Morgan hadn't been able to do that after the events in Dead Beat. Harry mentioned Carlos reputation as a rising star within the Council, so that would appeal to the Merlin. Recruit someone the younger wardens like and can relate to.
Finally, after Carlos was nearly killed by Molly, it's possible the Merlin made an inquiry to discover what happened to the young warden. It wouldn't have been a personal secret that Carlos' physician; I think it was LTW, would have to keep from the Merlin. Arthur Langtry would have seen that incident as something he could use to sow doubt in Carlos' mind about Harry. Think of ideas, if not the exact sentences, the Merlin might have used to persuade Carlos. Molly was a warlock and she was Harry's apprentice. Harry trained her and now as the Winter lady Molly can't control herself. Do you think the Winter Knight can do any better when he is under the direct orders and influence of Mab? What about Harry's dalliance with the White Court? It isn't a one time event. He has been at Raith's mansion in Chicago several times and has made common cause with Raith's on several occasions. Harry Dresden needs to be protected from himself, before its too late.
I could go on, add more negative thoughts or give these ideas more detail, but I'm pretty sure everyone gets the point. I feel fairly confident Langtry has recruited; or has begun the process of recruiting, Carlos as his new right hand. However, there is one other factor that makes Carlos Ramirez the perfect target for the Merlin to recruit. He is young and naïve; relatively speaking, to the remaining "old guard" members of the wardens. Remember in Turn Coat, Harry asked Morgan if he knew that he would be blamed for La Fortier's death, that there wasn't a reasonable way for Morgan to defend himself. Morgan's reply was "I've seen it happen before." The remaining "old guard" has as well. More than that, they saw that the Merlin was ready to sacrifice Morgan to save his position and did sacrifice Morgan's memory and reputation in an attempt to make the White Council look strong. With that example, it is not likely many or any of them would want to take Morgan's place.
-
I like that, it is quite probable.
-
I want to make a statement about the OP, because I haven't made a post in this thread before. Then I am going to make a separate post about the White Council though it will have to wait until tomorrow because I have a lot to say. I'll just tease that I have a totally different take on the Council's attitude towards Harry than I've read so far in this thread.
"Has Carlos sided with the Merlin against Harry?" Turn that idea around. Has the Arthur Langtry, A.K.A. the Merlin, attempted to recruit Carlos Ramirez to his point of view? We don't have any proof of this, but it makes a great deal of sense that Arthur would at least make the attempt to do so.
There is a description of two characters in the John Le Carre novel "Tinker, Taylor, Soldier Spy" that would seem to fit the Merlin and the late Warden Donald Morgan quite well. Together, these two characters were seen by their fellow members of British Intelligence as "the iron fist inside the iron glove." One of them was higher up in "The Circus" (MI6 I guess) and involved in planning intelligence operations while the other character was performing the actual field work. The one who got his hands dirty, so to speak. Arthur Langtry and Warden Morgan might have been described that way.
The Merlin probably feels the need to replace Morgan. Someone high up in the Wardens. Someone who can; to a degree, monitor the activities of one Harry Dresden. Though Morgan hadn't been able to do that after the events in Dead Beat. Harry mentioned Carlos reputation as a rising star within the Council, so that would appeal to the Merlin. Recruit someone the younger wardens like and can relate to.
Finally, after Carlos was nearly killed by Molly, it's possible the Merlin made an inquiry to discover what happened to the young warden. It wouldn't have been a personal secret that Carlos' physician; I think it was LTW, would have to keep from the Merlin. Arthur Langtry would have seen that incident as something he could use to sow doubt in Carlos' mind about Harry. Think of ideas, if not the exact sentences, the Merlin might have used to persuade Carlos. Molly was a warlock and she was Harry's apprentice. Harry trained her and now as the Winter lady Molly can't control herself. Do you think the Winter Knight can do any better when he is under the direct orders and influence of Mab? What about Harry's dalliance with the White Court? It isn't a one time event. He has been at Raith's mansion in Chicago several times and has made common cause with Raith's on several occasions. Harry Dresden needs to be protected from himself, before its too late.
I could go on, add more negative thoughts or give these ideas more detail, but I'm pretty sure everyone gets the point. I feel fairly confident Langtry has recruited; or has begun the process of recruiting, Carlos as his new right hand. However, there is one other factor that makes Carlos Ramirez the perfect target for the Merlin to recruit. He is young and naïve; relatively speaking, to the remaining "old guard" members of the wardens. Remember in Turn Coat, Harry asked Morgan if he knew that he would be blamed for La Fortier's death, that there wasn't a reasonable way to defend himself. Morgan's reply was "I've seen it happen before." The remaining "old guard" has as well. More than that, they saw that the Merlin was ready to sacrifice Morgan to save his position and did sacrifice Morgan's memory and reputation in an attempt to make the White Council look strong. With that example, it is not likely many or any of them would want to take Morgan's place.
Very interesting and plausible. I also think that Peabody's ink also plays a role in this somewhere. One wonders as Rashid did at the end of Turn Coat how much damage had been done and for how long had it been going on? He also added that it was going to take a lot of work to undo the damage it had caused. However having said that, how much was able to be repaired? Did the Merlin include himself as someone who might need physical deprogramming? Not unlike Luccio, the Merlin could have been physically changed by the ink? It would make sense that he would be made a target like she was. Remember the Council decided that an innocent man, Morgan was to be sacrificed least the Council look bad. If they were knowingly willing to execute an innocent man, just how far would they be willing to go? I also imagine since Harry was the guy that uncovered all of this, it would make Harry a target for whomever was behind the plot, since we really don't know who Peabody was making his ink for, or for what reason. Also interesting now that I think of it, of the Senior Council members the three that I remember on page being shocked by the fact that they had been manipulated by Peabody's ink were LTW, Eb, and Rashid, the very people who would stand up for Harry at the time of the vote against him, but weren't present. On page anyway, I don't remember much being said by any other Council Members also were subjected to Peabody's ink.
I can also see a lot of conclusion jumping on the part of the White Council on just how the Winter Court functions and the powers of it's Queens and Knights. Also again, secrets can come back to bite one in the ass as they say, i.e. Harry up until Peace Talks had told no one of the White Council that Thomas was his half brother. So yeah, Harry going to great lengths to try and save Thomas, a well known White Court vampire, would automatically make Harry suspect. It's also interesting that of all the Wardens mentioned at the beginning of Peace Talks, Chandler seemed to be the only Warden not going along with the general consensus that Harry might be up to no good and had to be trailed. This is before any assassination etc by Thomas, true, Harry didn't help his case after it happened when he didn't answer questions or took offense at the scan for his recent sexual activity.. It was Chandler who was giving him warning signals not to play along, not his friend Carlos. However that too can be seen two ways, Chandler didn't go along with Harry being suspect of anything, thus was warning him.. Or Chandler wanted to set Harry up so things would go worse for him.. This could go along with the reason other than Harry and Carlos, Chandler was the only Warden survivor in the fight against the Black Court, or presumably he survived, because he was shipped into another dimension.. Guess we will find out more in Mirror Mirror.
-
There have been some really interesting posts in this thread, with a number of good points made by a number of different people. But I think the overall analysis of the White Council is missing something and it has to do with secrets. Who is clued in, has deep knowledge of what is going on when it comes to Harry Dresden, and who doesn't. The White Council is not a monolith. The White Council can be mentally divided into several factions. Not political factions, but different groups defined by the level of knowledge they possess. Because of gaps in knowledge, these different Council groups fear Harry for different reasons.
Harry was voted out of the Council by a general vote of all it's members. The rank and file members who are not wardens, not support staff who work in Edinburgh HQ and not members of the Senior Council, probably know the least about Harry, but they make up a majority of the White Council. They are therefore the easiest to frighten and manipulate into voting against Harry. Remember, that in their eyes Harry initiated a war with the Red Court and his destruction of the Reds allowed the Fomor to rise. These two things on their own probably got some of their friends killed and put their own lives in danger. Then there was the botched trial of Morgan, which also got a number of wizards killed. They could have blamed Harry for that as well. If that is the case, they might have a point. There is a reason why warlocks are bound and forced to wear a hood. It's so they can't do they kind of things Peabody did. In some peoples minds, that might be enough to vote Harry out. Add a fear campaign to fully turn the normie wizards against Harry and he's out.
The Wardens have a higher level of knowledge, but I'd bet very few of them are fully clued in. Someone like Morgan, because of his close association with the Merlin, might have had more knowledge of what it means that Harry is Starborn, and maybe more knowledge than even Captain Lucio currently has. Though there is no way to be certain of this. The micro-fiction blog Jim wrote about Morgan suggests his knowledge was at a high level. I'd bet that most wardens think that Harry is a good candidate to go warlock and might be headed in that direction; Carlos Ramirez would be in this group, and others might see parallels between Harry and Kemmler. That might be the limit of what they know and what they fear.
I think the Senior Council members who know about Harry being Starborn; and who know what that means or could mean, think Harry becoming the next Heinrich Kemmler is the least of their potential problems. Also, not all of the Senior Council may be fully clued-in. I think there is a decent chance that Senior Council member Cristos is in the dark on this. Harry thought Cristos was Black Council, but it seems more like Cristos is a buffoon or someone's useful idiot, than a true power player of the very highest level. If Cristos didn't already know before he joined the Senior Council, I don't see why anyone already on the Senior Council would want to clue him in.
Why don't I think Harry = Kemmler 2.0 is the real fear driving the Senior Council? Jim stated that Drakul thought that Kemmler's behavior was amusing, something that was funny. While that gives us a clue just how twisted Drakul is, I think it also tells us that he didn't rate Kemmler that highly. Kemmler was a very dangerous person, but even though things like setting up World War One was supposedly one of his projects, I suspect the mad necromancer was somewhat random in his depravity. Beings like Nemesis and Drakul rank higher on the bad news scale because they have a plan. Make that plans. Their interests might diverge greatly from one another.
The the Senior Council's behavior toward Harry is really strange. At least it seems that way to me. Vincentric said something interesting about this. Here a quote: If you saw one of the most promising talents of the past century who is also a Starborn, walking close to the darkness, would you try a calm and reasoned intercession or would you bully, threaten and ostracize him even though he has not done any dark acts?
It seems counter productive. Almost like the Senior Council was pushing Harry towards the dark side. Kind of dumb, unless that is exactly what they wanted to do. Well, maybe not make Harry into a monster that would turn on the Council, but a monster they could control. Isn't that what Justin DuMorne tried to do, in a very crude way? Of course, making a monster you can control would be a real tricky thing to do. It didn't work out so well for Justin.
I want to give you some evidence for what I am thinking. First, consider something Mab said to Harry and then the rest of the conversation between Mab and Ebenezar:
Mab - "Be comforted, my Knight: I chose you for times precisely such as these, when an elemental of destruction is what is most needed."
What does Mab mean when she describes Harry using the word "elemental?" In simplest terms, when you are using elemental as an adjective, it means "related to, or embodying the powers of nature." But when you are using elemental as a noun it means, "a supernatural entity or force thought to be physically manifested by occult means." (Both definitions from the online Oxford Dictionary) It could mean Harry uses supernatural force or supernatural forces were used to create Harry. I'm think that with Harry being Starborn, it means the later. She is naming Harry as a force who was created for causing destruction.
Mab then starts gushing over Harry's potential for "true greatness" and it really starts to irk Ebenezar.
Eb - “He is not your weapon, Mab.” And Eb's voice is described as having granite in it.
Mab – “He is exactly my weapon. By his own choice. Which is more than your people ever gave him. And they call the Sidhe wicked and deceitful.” At this point Harry looked at Ebenezar but Eb refused to meet Harry’s gaze.
Ebenzar might have used different words or phrases to contest Mab. "He is your Knight Mab, not your plaything." Instead, Ebenezar; without any prompting or hints from Mab, described Harry as a weapon. That is exactly how Mother Winter described Harry in Cold Days:
Mother Summer narrowed her eyes. "Is he ready?"
Mother Winter - "There is no time to coddle him," she rasped. "He is a weapon. Let him be made stronger."
Though Margaret LeFay's role in Harry being Starborn is somewhat vague at this point, I think the White Council started to manipulate and mold Harry from time they found him. Whether that was right after Malcolm Dresden died or after Harry killed Justin, I can't be certain. Justin might have part of the Council's plan and turned on the Council or he may have been operating independently all along. We don't have enough information to know with certainty. I think Ebenezar was in on the plan, whenever it started. He said he soulgazed Malcolm Dresden. "...a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen."
If Justin raising Harry was part of the Council's plan to mold Harry, when Harry broke the First Law by killing Justin, the Council believed they had made a mistake, that Harry was a mistake. It didn't matter that Harry acted in self defense or that Justin had become a warlock himself. Harry was too dangerous and too unpredictable to trust. Of course, Ebenezar felt differently and he managed to get Harry a reprieve, The Doom. The Council's fear that Harry couldn't be controlled remained and even Ebenzar's closest allies remained warry of Harry.
Martha Liberty - "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk."
I think Ebenzar believes that as long as Harry might still become a weapon of the White Council, he can protect Harry from the Council's wrath. The thing about weapons, is when they get used in wars, they usually get used up and then are discarded. I'm not sure Eb is doing Harry any long-term favors by trying to protect him.
I wonder if there are any other starborn besides Harry, Listen and Dracul? Specifically, any other starborn the Senior Council might want to use in Harry's place. With Ethniu locked up and with Korb wanting him dead, Listen needs a new employer. :D
What do you think? Except for that last sentence, that was a lame joke. Am I on the right track? I know this puzzle is missing some pieces, but it feels right to me. Harry is a weapon who may have been created by the will of Margaret LeFey, but one who has been molded by the White Council, until they gave up on him. Except for Ebenezar and maybe Listen's to Wind and a few others.
Post Script: This is why LTW and Eb don't want tell Harry everything. Harry might not react well to this information. An elemental of destruction not reacting well could be a real problem.
-
Jim stated that Drakul thought that Kemmler's behavior was amusing, something that was funny. While that gives us a clue just how twisted Drakul is, I think it also tells us that he didn't rate Kemmler that highly. Kemmler was a very dangerous person, but even though things like setting up World War One was supposedly one of his projects, I suspect the mad necromancer was somewhat random in his depravity. Beings like Nemesis and Drakul rank higher on the bad news scale because they have a plan.
I'm still a bit confused what to make of that bit, given we know from DB that Kemmler's research interests included "how to use necromancy against the black court". Looking for weaknesses in his elite personal guard seems like the kind of thing Drakul would find pretty far from amusing.
Unless the WOJ meant Drakul found Kemmler's earlier career with the world wars and stuff funny, until he crossed a line in his final publication? The timing seems awfully coincidental that the Council had been after him for the best part of a century and only got him for good shortly after he published the one thing that might have genuinely pissed Drakul off. I wonder if Drakul took a page from the Stokerlypse and exploited the council into being his mob to burn down Kemmler and purge (almost) all the copies of his last book.
-
Harry was voted out of the Council by a general vote of all it's members. The rank and file members who are not wardens, not support staff who work in Edinburgh HQ and not members of the Senior Council, probably know the least about Harry, but they make up a majority of the White Council. They are therefore the easiest to frighten and manipulate into voting against Harry. Remember, that in their eyes Harry initiated a war with the Red Court and his destruction of the Reds allowed the Fomor to rise. These two things on their own probably got some of their friends killed and put their own lives in danger. Then there was the botched trial of Morgan, which also got a number of wizards killed. They could have blamed Harry for that as well. If that is the case, they might have a point. There is a reason why warlocks are bound and forced to wear a hood. It's so they can't do they kind of things Peabody did. In some peoples minds, that might be enough to vote Harry out. Add a fear campaign to fully turn the normie wizards against Harry and he's out.
One has to wonder though, who remained in the general membership of the White Council? How easily were they influenced? In my opinion most things the Merlin said most would go along with, we saw that at Molly's trial when he wanted to push through her conviction in Proven Guilty. We also saw how pissed the Merlin was in a controlled way when Harry stood up in defense of her and won some serious political points that ultimately saved her. I also remember Eb after it was over warning Harry that the Merlin wouldn't forget that Harry had gotten the upper hand politically against him. As I said in a earlier post, the three Senior Councilors who also carry influence over the general membership, Eb, LTW, and particularly Rashid were missing the day that it came to a vote. We've seen in the past how Rashid has been able with his logic and wisdom and support, to delay or blow up plans to bring down Harry. Whether it was in Summer Knight or Proven Guilty, Rashid when he makes an appearance has made a huge difference.
I think Ebenzar believes that as long as Harry might still become a weapon of the White Council, he can protect Harry from the Council's wrath. The thing about weapons, is when they get used in wars, they usually get used up and then are discarded. I'm not sure Eb is doing Harry any long-term favors by trying to protect him.
I wonder if there are any other starborn besides Harry, Listen and Dracul? Specifically, any other starborn the Senior Council might want to use in Harry's place. With Ethniu locked up and with Korb wanting him dead, Listen needs a new employer. :D
I do think that Harry was meant to be a weapon for the White Council, but Margaret threw a monkey wrench into the cogs when she chose Malcolm to be Harry's father. While I do think it was Lord Raith who killed Margaret, it is very possible that the White Council or elements of it were behind the murder of Malcolm. It is also very possible that Eb allowed Harry to get lost with in the foster care black hole because he didn't want to draw attention to the fact that he was Harry's grandfather. What they hadn't foreseen was the corruption of Justin, otherwise the White Council was perfectly happy with him raising Harry.
As to how many more star born there are, I imagine there are hundreds just because a lot of babies are born at those times. However very few have magical or potential for magical talent.. Though it could be that many of the world's most powerful leaders are indeed star born in their charisma.
-
As to how many more star born there are, I imagine there are hundreds just because a lot of babies are born at those times. However very few have magical or potential for magical talent.. Though it could be that many of the world's most powerful leaders are indeed star born in their charisma.
First, I agree with this paragraph of Mira's post. Many starborns, most of them magically irrelevant.
About what Mira and the others were saying. I still don't know who killed Malcolm and I do not discard Winter. I can see Lea killing him (not directly) because she thought Harry would turn to her. Which reminds me, I want to see the "I am your fairy godmother" scene. But about the rest, everyone sees Harry as a weapon. Everyone but his friends, daughter and brother, and that pushes him to become a monster. But I do think Malcolm was not planned for anyone and that he is the key to make Harry more than a weapon and not a monster. I hope we are going to see more of this.
-
I'm still a bit confused what to make of that bit, given we know from DB that Kemmler's research interests included "how to use necromancy against the black court". Looking for weaknesses in his elite personal guard seems like the kind of thing Drakul would find pretty far from amusing.
Unless the WOJ meant Drakul found Kemmler's earlier career with the world wars and stuff funny, until he crossed a line in his final publication? The timing seems awfully coincidental that the Council had been after him for the best part of a century and only got him for good shortly after he published the one thing that might have genuinely pissed Drakul off. I wonder if Drakul took a page from the Stokerlypse and exploited the council into being his mob to burn down Kemmler and purge (almost) all the copies of his last book.
I think it is possible, even probable that Kemmler didn't write something that said, "Here is how to use necromancy against a Black Court vampire" or anything that directly stated or hinted that the Black Court is vulnerable to necromancy. I think it is more likely that Harry made an intuitive leap that necromancy can be used against the Black Court.
It is even possible that Lash gave Harry help making this connection because she translated Kemmler's original writing into something Harry could understand and fully grasp. Lash would have known about Harry's conflict with Mavra; and especially known about previous injury he suffered, because Lash once stated that she could feel what Harry felt, and would have wanted Harry to have the knowledge to do more than survive any future hostile encounters with Mavra. Seeing as Harry had refused to take up the coin, Lash couldn't count on Harry having the full abilities of a Denarian to deal with Mavra or any other Black Court vampire the next time he encountered one.
Harry really needs to re-think the idea that he can turn his back on necromancy, that his temporary resurrection of Sue was a onetime event. As dangerous as using necromancy might be; both because of the possible mind altering side effects and that Harry would be breaking one of the Laws, it is probably the only weapon Harry might wield against Drakul that would be effective. I suppose Harry could teach Ebenezar to use necromancy against Drakul; seeing as the Black Staff can break the Laws of magic without consequences, but there isn't any guarantee Eb will be around much longer.
P.S. I just reread Morgan's micro-fiction. I should have done that before making the long post I made above. I now have two possible scenarios for what happened to both young Harry and Malcolm. However, I have other duties to attend to at the moment, so I will have to write them down later. These ideas are not fully filled in, but they are enough to suggest the general path of events.
-
Harry really needs to re-think the idea that he can turn his back on necromancy, that his temporary resurrection of Sue was a onetime event. As dangerous as using necromancy might be; both because of the possible mind altering side effects and that Harry would be breaking one of the Laws, it is probably the only weapon Harry might wield against Drakul that would be effective. I suppose Harry could teach Ebenezar to use necromancy against Drakul; seeing as the Black Staff can break the Laws of magic without consequences, but there isn't any guarantee Eb will be around much longer.
It's very possible that Harry will turn to necromancy in the BAT. It isn't for nothing that over the series Jim has added various weapons and knowledge to Harry's quiver most likely for future use. Let's not forget more than once Harry has rattled off several skills he has acquired from necromancy to Darkhallow,
-
Rereading Morgan’s journal, the late warden said he expected Captain Luccio to read it so it turns out she did know what Morgan knew about Harry or learned from Morgan’s journal what he knew. Morgan said that he made a promise to Margaret LeFay to protect Harry but he failed to do so. This is really odd seeing as Margaret was on the run from the Wardens as well as Lord Raith and company. Perhaps we will learn the complete story of how this occurred sometime down the line.
Morgan didn’t know who killed Malcolm Dresden and the warden said he couldn’t be certain Malcolm’s death was a murder, but I think we can safely assume that it was just that. Morgan tracked Harry and his father until the time of Malcolm’s death, but he wasn’t able to arrive until after Harry had been placed into the foster care system and disappeared from the system and it was done in every way possible, magically as well as bureaucratically. Morgan also said that he looked for Harry for years after this but couldn’t find him. Morgan then said, “that bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could,” but did he?
Morgan said that because of the amount of time Harry was missing, being hidden by Justin, the Council couldn’t be certain Harry hadn’t been infected by Nemesis. This is why he felt it was probably safer to kill Harry outright, but of course Ebenezar felt differently.
We know Justin DuMore eventually got a hold of Harry, but that doesn’t mean Justin was responsible for Malcolm’s death or that he was the individual who placed Harry into the system and made his records disappear.
It appears that Lea visited Harry from time to time before he was adopted by Justin. Dina has stated that she thinks Lea might have murdered Malcolm. She isn’t the only person to have come to this conclusion. I and at least one or two others have placed Lea on the suspect list for Malcolm’s death. Lea kills Malcolm as part of a deal with Justin or someone else. We don’t know what Lea was promised to get out of this deal, though we do know that she was eventually able to cut Justin out of the picture and get her hooks into Harry. Lea getting Harry to get rid of Justin is accurate, but the rest of it is speculative.
There is another scenario where the White Council is responsible for the murder of Malcolm Dresden. It might seem a bit far fetched, but it is a possibility. Morgan said he tracked Harry and Malcolm until Malcolm’s death, but he was away on a mission at the time, and this is why Morgan wasn’t able to get to young Harry. How convenient for the killer.
Donald Morgan was loyal to Arthur Langtry. Whatever conversation or communication he had with Margaret LeFay he probably reported to the Merlin. This seems especially likely to me as it concerned a soon to be starborn individual. Morgan, being a straightforward person, would have told the Merlin that he promised Margaret that he would protect her child.
The Merlin would have known that Warden Morgan wouldn’t willingly break his given word; especially concerning the protection of a child, so he went along with Morgan keeping tabs on Harry and Malcolm’s movements only asking for occasional updates. For some reason, after six years the Merlin decided the situation with Harry had to change. Perhaps the Merlin had a good reason, perhaps he learned there was a competing party looking to find Harry or perhaps the Merlin never liked the idea of a non-magic user looking after a starborn whose mother had been a strong magic practitioner. Whatever the reason, the Merlin sends Morgan on a time consuming mission to sideline him and sends the Blackstaff to kill Malcolm Dresden; both for Harry’s greater good and the good of the White Council.
Here is why I don’t consider this scenario just a wild ass guess. In Peace Talks, when Harry is arguing with Eb about Maggie’s safety, Harry tells Ebenezar about the emotional harm he suffered when Eb abandoned Harry to be placed in the foster care system. Ebenezar couldn’t even look Harry in the face as Harry said this and Ebenezar didn’t deny it. That is a problem. If Justin DuMorne found Harry first and with Lea’s help or by himself, made Harry disappear, why didn’t Eb set Harry straight? “Hoss, I’m sorry, but you are wrong. I didn’t abandon you, Justin DuMorne made you disappear before me or anyone on the Council could find you. We didn’t see you until after you killed Justin in a duel.”
Maybe Ebenezar didn’t kill Malcolm, but there is a contradiction here, and not a small one. I would have thought that one of the Beta readers would have noticed it first. I hope this isn’t some Dresden multiverse nonsense. I don’t have a problem with little things, like in one book there is a Brighter Future Society, but in another book it is the Better Future Society, that the description of Mort Lindquist’s home changes dramatically between books, Bianca’s dead lover changes names between Storm Front and Grave Peril or Harry has never been inside Marcone’s castle in Cold Days or Skin Game, but I think in the same book Harry mentions he went inside that same castle when he was a ghost. These are little details that tell us there is a Dresden multiverse, but they aren’t major contradictions which threaten to seriously break continuity.
I think there are two answers that resolve this situation. One is Morgan was wrong. Justin didn’t disappear Harry. By some means Justin got ahold of Harry later on. Ebenezar was responsible for making Harry disappear into the state system. The second is Ebenezar stood back and watched it happen. In that case Eb almost certainly knows who killed Malcolm Dresden and kept this secret, just like he kept the secret of Margaret's death from Harry. But why would Eb do that if Justin killed Malcolm? Ebenezar kept his knowledge of Margaret's murder from Harry because he didn't want Harry going off after Lord Raith when he knew Harry couldn't harm Raith and would just get himself killed. If Justin killed Malcolm, that excuse doesn't fit.
Only Morgan was in doubt about young Harry’s whereabouts. Ebenezar knew, or at least knew who disappeared Harry and wasn't concerned about it. This would suggest Eb considered the party who disappeared Harry was keeping the child safe. Not someone who would use or twist Harry for their own means. This would mean it was someone Ebenezar trusted. Who could that be?
-
It appears that Lea visited Harry from time to time before he was adopted by Justin. Dina has stated that she thinks Lea might have murdered Malcolm. She isn’t the only person to have come to this conclusion. I and at least one or two others have placed Lea on the suspect list for Malcolm’s death. Lea kills Malcolm as part of a deal with Justin or someone else. We don’t know what Lea was promised to get out of this deal, though we do know that she was eventually able to cut Justin out of the picture and get her hooks into Harry. Lea getting Harry to get rid of Justin is accurate, but the rest of it is speculative.
Somehow I don't think that Lea murdered Malcolm, because I seem to remember her saying to Harry back in Summer Knight or perhaps Grave Peril that she had promised to keep Harry safe. The only way I could see her murdering Malcolm would be that for some reason in her twisted Fae mind, which doesn't track logically like a human brain, it was the only way to keep Harry safe. That's not to say that it perhaps Lea sacrificed Malcolm, killing him in the most humane way she knew how, but if you asked her, she wouldn't call it murder. I am also willing to bet that if I am right, she had Mab's backing all of the way, maybe did it under Mab's orders. The kicker might be that their logic was sound, as in they feared that Malcolm was vulnerable to Nemesis, and thus Harry was.. But yeah, a lot of dark speculation.
One wonders, was it Lea that made sure that Harry disappeared into the foster care system? Did the Winter Court fear plans that the White Council had for young Harry? Or what they would do to Harry? Was it merely an accident that Harry fell into Justin's hands in the first place?
Here is why I don’t consider this scenario just a wild ass guess. In Peace Talks, when Harry is arguing with Eb about Maggie’s safety, Harry tells Ebenezar about the emotional harm he suffered when Eb abandoned Harry to be placed in the foster care system. Ebenezar couldn’t even look Harry in the face as Harry said this and Ebenezar didn’t deny it. That is a problem. If Justin DuMorne found Harry first and with Lea’s help or by himself, made Harry disappear, why didn’t Eb set Harry straight? “Hoss, I’m sorry, but you are wrong. I didn’t abandon you, Justin DuMorne made you disappear before me or anyone on the Council could find you. We didn’t see you until after you killed Justin in a duel.”
It is possible that Lea made Harry disappear so that Eb and the White Council couldn't find him, because she knew that the White Council had put his mother under a death warrant. Then again, we don't know if there was a traitor on the White Council.. Nor do we know how long Peabody's ink had been doing it's thing. The truth is though that Eb did abandon Harry, he never kept any ties with or kept track of Harry and Malcolm.
-
Somehow I don't think that Lea murdered Malcolm, because I seem to remember her saying to Harry back in Summer Knight or perhaps Grave Peril that she had promised to keep Harry safe. The only way I could see her murdering Malcolm would be that for some reason in her twisted Fae mind, which doesn't track logically like a human brain, it was the only way to keep Harry safe. That's not to say that it perhaps Lea sacrificed Malcolm, killing him in the most humane way she knew how, but if you asked her, she wouldn't call it murder. I am also willing to bet that if I am right, she had Mab's backing all of the way, maybe did it under Mab's orders. The kicker might be that their logic was sound, as in they feared that Malcolm was vulnerable to Nemesis, and thus Harry was.. But yeah, a lot of dark speculation.
There is a WoJ that states that Margaret did not make the best deal she might have made with Lea. The general speculation I have seen on this statement is that Margaret didn’t include Malcolm as someone Lea should have protected. Either Maragret saw Malcolm as someone who would be ignored because he wasn’t a player in the great game or Margaret wasn’t thinking clearly because she was pregnant, concerned with the safety of her unborn child and being chased by bad guys who wanted her dead. That might be enough to throw anyone off their game.
One wonders, was it Lea that made sure that Harry disappeared into the foster care system? Did the Winter Court fear plans that the White Council had for young Harry? Or what they would do to Harry? Was it merely an accident that Harry fell into Justin's hands in the first place?
It is possible that Lea made Harry disappear so that Eb and the White Council couldn't find him, because she knew that the White Council had put his mother under a death warrant. Then again, we don't know if there was a traitor on the White Council.. Nor do we know how long Peabody's ink had been doing it's thing. The truth is though that Eb did abandon Harry, he never kept any ties with or kept track of Harry and Malcolm.
This isn’t directly related to your statement above, but it is something that is interesting and might be of some relevance later on. On my last reread of Changes I noticed that Ebenezer and Lea know each other, and not just by reputation. After the battle is finally over Ebenezer walked up to both Harry and Lea; I think they were sitting next to each other, and Eb looked at Lea and said, “Family business.” Please excuse us.” Lea just smirked at Ebenezar and walked away.
One, that is a rather informal way to speak to one of the highest ranking members of the Winter Court. If Eb didn’t know Lea, he would have probably introduced himself and been a bit more formal in his request to have Lea leave. More important and to the point, remember in Battle Ground the Erlking recognized the amulet Harry was wearing; or the jewel in the amulet, as being one that belonged to Margaret Lefay or of her design. When Harry responded that Margaret LeFay was his mother, he got a sideways look from Ebenezar. Harry then went on to explain that Eb didn’t believe in giving away this type of information freely and this would probably come up in a future talk with Eb.
So, for Ebenezer to freely say he needed some privacy with Harry to discuss “family business,” that means that Ebenezar knew that Lea already knew about Eb and Harry’s family connection. It means Eb and Lea knew each other pretty well. Maybe Eb has even made deals with Lea in the past. If so, that would mean Lea has made deals with the Grandfather, his daughter and his grandson. Lea being Harry’s fairy godmother almost make her family, to Harry at least; though in a really odd way.
-
So, for Ebenezer to freely say he needed some privacy with Harry to discuss “family business,” that means that Ebenezar knew that Lea already knew about Eb and Harry’s family connection. It means Eb and Lea knew each other pretty well. Maybe Eb has even made deals with Lea in the past. If so, that would mean Lea has made deals with the Grandfather, his daughter and his grandson. Lea being Harry’s fairy godmother almost make her family, to Harry at least; though in a really odd way.
I haven't reread the books you mentioned and don't remember them. That's why rereading the series is important because as the series goes on looking back at the subtleties of what was said or unsaid become significant sometimes. The thought just hit me reading the above that maybe Eb didn't abandon young Harry or lose track of him in the foster system at all. Given his secrecy about his family thinking he was protecting young Harry by not advertising his relationship to him, could Eb have made a bargain with Lea to watch over Harry in his absence? We know she was the nice lady that visited from time to time when Harry was in the orphanage. And yeah, when and if the truth ever comes out about that bargain, if it was made, I can see Harry resenting both Lea and Eb because of it. I don't think since he endured years in an orphanage and ended up with Justin that that was a very good bargain as far as he was concerned.
-
I haven't reread the books you mentioned and don't remember them. That's why rereading the series is important because as the series goes on looking back at the subtleties of what was said or unsaid become significant sometimes. The thought just hit me reading the above that maybe Eb didn't abandon young Harry or lose track of him in the foster system at all. Given his secrecy about his family thinking he was protecting young Harry by not advertising his relationship to him, could Eb have made a bargain with Lea to watch over Harry in his absence? We know she was the nice lady that visited from time to time when Harry was in the orphanage. And yeah, when and if the truth ever comes out about that bargain, if it was made, I can see Harry resenting both Lea and Eb because of it. I don't think since he endured years in an orphanage and ended up with Justin that that was a very good bargain as far as he was concerned.
I think you may be on to something. I'll go a little further. I won't be surprised if we eventually discover that Lea made separate deals with Margaret, then Ebenezer, Justin; perhaps later or perhaps around the same time as Ebenezer, and finally Harry. Being second only to Mab in all things Winter, I can imagine Lea recounting how she kept the word of every deal she made while exploiting every loophole available to her, to advance her own agenda.
-
I think you may be on to something. I'll go a little further. I won't be surprised if we eventually discover that Lea made separate deals with Margaret, then Ebenezer, Justin; perhaps later or perhaps around the same time as Ebenezer, and finally Harry. Being second only to Mab in all things Winter, I can imagine Lea recounting how she kept the word of every deal she made while exploiting every loophole available to her, to advance her own agenda.
Yes, and this made Lea perhaps the most dangerous being in the Winter Court. Why? Because Lea is no Mab. She thought she was, she thought she was every bit as clever and strong as Mab, but she was not. This is hinted at back when we first meet her and Harry is terrified of her because she wanted to turn him into a hound to keep him safe. I started a thread about it years ago when I started to reread the books. On the reread it became very apparent to me that Lea wanted Mab's job, she thought she was stronger and more clever than Mab. Now it could be that she was actually infected with Nemesis long before she was given the Knife at the party back in Grave Peril. When you think about it, why was she so happy to get it? She wasn't accepting it on behalf of her Queen. Lea thought the Knife gave her power, and she thought she could wheel and deal and maybe overthrow Mab because of it. It also may have been Lea's motivation to give the Knife to unhappy Maeve, making her part of the conspiracy, and we saw how that ended. However when Lea's madness became too overt, Mab caught it in time to treat and supposedly cure her, though Mab didn't spot it soon enough to save Maeve.
So going back to your original idea of Lea making all these separate bargains, most of which backfired makes sense when you think of it in the context that Lea may have already have been infected at that time. What better way for Nemesis to take out the star born child that would have the power to defeat it some day? It would appear to everyone at the time that Lea was making these bargains to keep her godchild safe, but all of the while she was being used by Nemesis to take out that child. The plan came close to succeeding when young Harry killed Justin and almost lost his head for it... It was a near thing, it also underscores what Eb said in his journal back in Turn Coat, paraphrasing now, "it is almost like there is a divine hand in all of this.." Hmmmmm... :-\ Does a certain covert wet works archangel come to mind? Dare we say, Uriel? :o
Okay, I went back and found the exact quote, to me rereading it now, it seems more profound. page 379, Turn Coat;
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a higher power of some sort, attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it.
Bet all the eggs in the hen house that that higher power is Uriel, under the direction of his Boss of course.
-
I agree with your first statement that Lea is no Mab. Thinking of Lea becoming the next Mab makes me think about the Peter Principle. The idea of a person who is confident and successful at their job and because of their success this person is promoted, perhaps several times, until they are promoted to a job they are incompetent to perform and they fail completely.
I am much less sanguine about the idea that Lea was taken over by Nemesis prior to being given the Athame by Bianca. Lea clearly underestimated Harry's potential and his unwillingness to be cowed by anyone. (I suppose in Harry's case it would be, "Harry refused to be dogged.") It is the main reason why Harry was able to outmaneuver Lea in Grave Peril, though Harry had to risk his life to do so. Lea made the mistake of thinking Harry hadn't really changed from the frightened and easily manipulatable 16 year-old she had first met.
-
I am much less sanguine about the idea that Lea was taken over by Nemesis prior to being given the Athame by Bianca. Lea clearly underestimated Harry's potential and his unwillingness to be cowed by anyone. (I suppose in Harry's case it would be, "Harry refused to be dogged.") It is the main reason why Harry was able to outmaneuver Lea in Grave Peril, though Harry had to risk his life to do so. Lea made the mistake of thinking Harry hadn't really changed from the frightened and easily manipulatable 16 year-old she had first met.
As far as Harry goes, yes, Lea underestimated him, however that doesn't change her ambition and desire to perhaps become Queen herself. Her early dialogue when we first meet her suggests that she thought she could do a better job at Mab's job, than Mab. What you have to ask yourself and admittedly at that point in time we don't know if that kind of ambition among the Fae is normal. If it isn't, what is driving it? Is Lea the exception that proves the rule? Or was she infected and Nemesis was driving her ambition?
Either way, the gift of the infected Knife at the Party gave her a way to overthrow Mab. Then Lea went ahead and gave the infected Knife to Maeve. One of the things that Lea says in the brief conversation with Harry while she was in ice in Proven Guilty was how Mab set her straight, very brief because she went mad again.. Who are the two Fae in the Winter Court who sought to undermine and overthrow Mab? Lea and Maeve, who were the two Fae infected? Lea and Maeve.. When Lea was going around making all these bargains supposedly to keep baby then very young Harry safe, which didn't, she could have been infected. Then when that failed, what did Nemesis do? Go after the Queen strongest to go against them, Mab, so the infected Knife was introduced.