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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mr. Mouse on April 13, 2022, 08:12:27 PM
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Listening to Battleground this week I was struck by a "how twisty a twist can Jim twist" thought: What if the White Council isn't afraid of Harry? What if the Senior Council has been trying to manipulate him via the series of threats they've posed toward him all these years. This would be a more extended version of what He Who Walks Behind did when Harry ran away from Justin. He pretended to be there to kill Harry, but only went at it with a fraction of effort. The Walker's purpose was to scare Harry, test him, and evaluate whether he had what it took for the contest to come in the BAT. Similarly, elements of the Council have been trying to keep Harry off balance with the Doom of Damocles, the threat to hand him over to the Red Court for execution, drafting him into the wardens against his will, placing him again under the Doom of Damocles with Molly, threatening to expel him, and finally expelling him right after he binds a Titan. They've been trying to forge him into their weapon/champion in an abusive manner reminiscent of Justin. The question then becomes how successful they'll be seen to have been at that.
Just a thought.
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We have independent verification from Cowl that the Wardens were afraid of Harry.
Morgan was afraid that Harry was a Destroyer, but how widely his Starborn status was known is debatable.
Mostly he was seen set a bad example to members of the White Council, advertising as a wizard.
They are certainly afraid of Harry now, they saw his control over the Sprites and they suspect he has the Eye of Baylor. They didn’t know about the super weapons, Amorachius or Bob, that he had picked up a Denarius, or half a dozen other things.
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I don't know why I should take anything Cowl says as true. We see how well taking what even allies like Justine says as true has worked.
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Looking back at the attack by the Walker on teenage Harry, it was probably a test to see if he was indeed a Starborn. On Cowl's pronouncement in Dead Beat, it doesn't matter. You can fear a thing and use it. And fear is a useful tool for crowd control.
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I don't know why I should take anything Cowl says as true. We see how well taking what even allies like Justine says as true has worked.
Cowl has no need to lie in his mind, Harry (and everyone else) are beneath him, and he has completely obscured his identity. However I wonder if Mouse could identify him by scent?
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I'm trying to think when Mouse would have had access to Cowl's scent...
In DB, Cowl was outside in the rain with Harry and Kumori went in to get Bob... while Butters was "taking cover" with Mouse.
Mouse was at the museum, but is left out of the narrative after that, I don't remember him going to the college...
I don't think there was any opportunity there for Mouse to get his scent, was there any other time that mouse and Cowl were in the same location?
Mouse wasn't with the rescue team in WN at the battle in the Deeps...
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Cowl has no need to lie in his mind, Harry (and everyone else) are beneath him, and he has completely obscured his identity. However I wonder if Mouse could identify him by scent?
Everybody mortal is beneath a Walker, too, but still He Who Walks Beside works through deceit and manipulation while possessing Justine. Heck, obscuring one's identity is lying to others about who you are. If he has no need to lie he has no need to hide his face.
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I'm trying to think when Mouse would have had access to Cowl's scent...
In DB, Cowl was outside in the rain with Harry and Kumori went in to get Bob... while Butters was "taking cover" with Mouse.
Mouse was at the museum, but is left out of the narrative after that, I don't remember him going to the college...
I don't think there was any opportunity there for Mouse to get his scent, was there any other time that mouse and Cowl were in the same location?
Mouse wasn't with the rescue team in WN at the battle in the Deeps...
I don't think that Mouse would need Cowl's scent per-say, all he'd need is the scent of Cowl's intentions, and an ordinary dog can figure that out, so put it on steroids for a Foo Dog.. He'd simply pick him out of a crowd by scent that he is a bad guy and let Harry know.
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Mouse may have met Cowl’s alter ego already, remember he gave evidence to the White Council, in a future meeting he can identify who Cowl is if on the White Council.
Jim may be setting us up for a Scooby Doo reveal on Cowl.
With Harry as Shaggy.
This would suggest Cowl is Old Man Jenkins.
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I'm trying to think when Mouse would have had access to Cowl's scent...
In DB, Cowl was outside in the rain with Harry and Kumori went in to get Bob... while Butters was "taking cover" with Mouse.
Mouse was at the museum, but is left out of the narrative after that, I don't remember him going to the college...
I don't think there was any opportunity there for Mouse to get his scent, was there any other time that mouse and Cowl were in the same location?
Mouse wasn't with the rescue team in WN at the battle in the Deeps...
It was heavily alluded in the zoo short story segment from Mouse' POV that Cowl and Kumori were the ones who stole the litter of foo puppies from the monastery in the first place.
I've been trying to get "would Mouse still recognize them by scent and hold a grudge?" into an AMA since then, mainly because his lack of hostility toward Elaine in WN might exonerate her if so.
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It was heavily alluded in the zoo short story segment from Mouse' POV that Cowl and Kumori were the ones who stole the litter of foo puppies from the monastery in the first place.
I've been trying to get "would Mouse still recognize them by scent and hold a grudge?" into an AMA since then, mainly because his lack of hostility toward Elaine in WN might exonerate her if so.
I think Mouse would remember very well if Cowl stole him and his brothers and sisters and I doubt he will be forgiving.
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They were certainly behind it, but they most likely used intermediaries for the dog napping, coming off all Cruella de Ville is a bit below a man who aspires to be a god.
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We have independent verification from Cowl that the Wardens were afraid of Harry.
We don't have any great reason to trust Cowl, however! Unless you subscribe to the "Cowl is secretly Future!Harry" theory (it's one of my favorites, tbh). I suspect, though, that it's true... the Wardens were (and are!) afraid of Harry.
Even if that was 100% accurate... the wardens aren't Senior Council. Policy stuff the Council does overarching strategies, etc) isn't known to them. They are just tools (ba-dum-tssss).
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... This would be a more extended version of what He Who Walks Behind did when Harry ran away from Justin. He pretended to be there to kill Harry, but only went at it with a fraction of effort. The Walker's purpose was to scare Harry, test him, and evaluate whether he had what it took ...
I know this is a popular theory, but... has it been WoJ'ed?
Because in the Raith Deeps, in those few (accelerated) seconds when Lash joined Team Dresden, she claimed that it WAS significant that Harry had defeated HWWB: not some fake-out or mere "test" on the Outsiders' part.
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The White Council shouldn’t know about the Walker, they think that it was a wizards dual between a fully trained former warden and an apprentice which the apprentice won.
The White Council though never seemed to address why they had no record of Justin taking on Harry as an apprentice. They merely seem to accept he was Justin’s apprentice.
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... The White Council though never seemed to address why they had no record of Justin taking on Harry as an apprentice. They merely seem to accept he was Justin’s apprentice.
They apparently investigated enough to be clear that Justin had gone warlock, and was actively practicing black magic. I'd expect a warlock would avoid "prematurely" exposing an apprentice to the White Council, and I'd expect the Council wouldn't think this odd. And... where else would a 16-year-old kid get enough magical "juice" to take down a combat-veteran senior Warden? One who was in on the kill of Kemmler himself, at that, so no slouch!
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They apparently investigated enough to be clear that Justin had gone warlock, and was actively practicing black magic. I'd expect a warlock would avoid "prematurely" exposing an apprentice to the White Council, and I'd expect the Council wouldn't think this odd. And... where else would a 16-year-old kid get enough magical "juice" to take down a combat-veteran senior Warden? One who was in on the kill of Kemmler himself, at that, so no slouch!
That is why the Council was so divided and still are.. Let us not forget that Eb had orders to kill his sixteen year old charge, if he noticed anything.
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And yet it’s quite clear Morgan’s faction at least we’re aware of Harry’s connection to Eb.
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The White Council shouldn’t know about the Walker, they think that it was a wizards dual between a fully trained former warden and an apprentice which the apprentice won.
The White Council though never seemed to address why they had no record of Justin taking on Harry as an apprentice. They merely seem to accept he was Justin’s apprentice.
I do not think the council keeps an administration about these things.
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I do not think the council keeps an administration about these things.
Which is why it must be stopped. I think poor Carlos situation arose from being sexually abused by his Master, and the White Council wilfully ignoring it.
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Which is why it must be stopped. I think poor Carlos situation arose from being sexually abused by his Master, and the White Council wilfully ignoring it.
Most powerful wizards are a few centuries old. Now if a boy or girl is sexually abused we take it seriously, at least where I live. But the scandals of the past could continue for so long because people did think differently. They did not take the children's testimonies seriously and were easily cowed by people with authority.
The older wizards would not take these things as serious as we do and might think it more important to protect the wizard than the apprentice.
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And yet it’s quite clear Morgan’s faction at least we’re aware of Harry’s connection to Eb.
Morgan was. I took his short story as an insight that his loyalty is not as monolithic as everyone thought it was. He has personal opinions. He made have thought Margaret a pure bad seed warlock- we don't know- but he also was willing to accept her request to guard her child and was angry at himself for failing an innocent boy.
Most powerful wizards are a few centuries old. Now if a boy or girl is sexually abused we take it seriously, at least where I live. But the scandals of the past could continue for so long because people did think differently. They did not take the children's testimonies seriously and were easily cowed by people with authority.
The older wizards would not take these things as serious as we do and might think it more important to protect the wizard than the apprentice.
This is a dark topic. I will only note that the romantic attachment felt by some early adolescent students toward their teachers was discussed by ancient Greek sources as something to be encouraged as an additional motivator to do well at their studies- the dark underbelly of Greek/Roman intellectual culture. I could see this being part of Carlos' background specifically.
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I think this is a possibility because of how Harry treated Molly, there was a mutual attraction but Harry clearly stamped on it to be just a teacher to Molly. He was aware of the possibility of abuse in that relationship.
It also strikes me that Carlos in putting the moves on the Winter Lady must have known something like that would happen to him, subconsciously he must have anticipated and welcomed the attack, another excuse not to address his own underlying trauma, to find an external blame for his predicament, like his perpetual run on injuries, they are an excuse not to address it. Harry has has significantly worse and numerous injuries yet since breaking his back he has had relations with Mab and Murphy.
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... I think poor Carlos situation arose from being sexually abused by his Master, and the White Council wilfully ignoring it.
That seems possible.
But it's also possible that he's just phenomenally unlucky in this regard.
I've known 20something & 30something virgins who hadn't been abused; and Carlos' "Latin machismo" facade mostly provides cover for something embarrassing (and some comic relief for Jim & his audience).
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There is nothing strange about it. Some people just have more social skills than others and there is some luck involved as well.
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It’s quite likely that Jim has written the character to allow the reader to draw their own conclusions about Carlos predicament.
However Carlos is supposed to be more polished socially than for example Harry, he is past 30 now, and yet does not seem to have developed a significant relationship with anyone. He is Roman Catholic by faith and upbringing which may account for this and still maintains contact with his family in LA, so his facade may be for their benefit.
It will be a waste if there isn’t some revelation about Carlos to explain this in the future.
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Listening to Battleground this week I was struck by a "how twisty a twist can Jim twist" thought: What if the White Council isn't afraid of Harry? What if the Senior Council has been trying to manipulate him via the series of threats they've posed toward him all these years...
I don't think the Senior Council is at all united in how the think about (and approach) Harry.
I suspect that there is at least 1 member who has a "manipulate Harry" agenda... which they sometimes work via their position on the Council, and sometime do it via other assets.
I suspect more than one member, actually -- I think there's a Black Council member (still, even after Peabody's unmasking) on the White Council, and I'm pretty sure the BC has a use-Harry agenda! But I think there's likely at least one person pursuing their own personal agenda, that's at odds with both the B.C and the W.C.
It's entirely possible that *every* member of the White Council has their own personal agenda for Harry... because they're very-senior wizards (aka arrogant and self-confident to a very-nearly pathological degree).
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It's entirely possible that *every* member of the White Council has their own personal agenda for Harry... because they're very-senior wizards (aka arrogant and self-confident to a very-nearly pathological degree).
Yes it is possible, I do think as a group they had an agenda for Harry, but their mistake was thinking
they could control him.
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Even Eb thought he could control Harry.
That worked out poorly. I wonder if Eb will try to reconcile with Harry in realisation that Harry WILL make his own decisions. We know that nothing at Christmas Eve had occurred, but Eb was badly injured and may still have been out of action.
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The White Council shouldn’t know about the Walker, they think that it was a wizards dual between a fully trained former warden and an apprentice which the apprentice won.
The White Council though never seemed to address why they had no record of Justin taking on Harry as an apprentice. They merely seem to accept he was Justin’s apprentice.
Because they didn't have a record. They had Harry after the fact. Morgan couldn't have known who took Harry unless he knew in advance who was suppose to. Is this not a valid interpretation? In the conversation in the parking garage Butcher has Martha Liberty tell Eb "You know what he was meant to be.", implying that they knew what Justin did and why he did it.
In the attack at the small store someone summoned the Walker. The Walker was the test, but test was to see if Harry could fight back from the psychic attack. He didn't defeat the Walker he exploded the fuel tank. Butcher supports this in Peace talks during the fight in the parking garage.
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In the attack at the small store someone summoned the Walker. The Walker was the test, but test was to see if Harry could fight back from the psychic attack. He didn't defeat the Walker he exploded the fuel tank. Butcher supports this in Peace talks during the fight in the parking garage.
Yes and no, the exploding gas tank did end HWWB's attack, but up to that point young sixteen year old scared shitless Harry Dresden wasn't exactly buckling under the Outsider psychic attack either. Impressive since young Harry had no clue as to what or why he was being attacked. He had no defense since he didn't know at the time that there was such a thing as a psychic attack, or how to defend himself from it. He kept up his adolescent smart ass fall back defense act that we've all become familiar with, and it more or less worked. We don't know how long it would have worked because HWWB decided to murder the gas station attendant, which horrified and piss young Harry off and he ignited the gas pump. So while perhaps not definitive, whoever sent the Walker did get quite a bit of data on young star born Harry Dresden.
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I don’t think we have seen an accurate or full version of these events either.
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Yes and no, the exploding gas tank did end HWWB's attack, but up to that point young sixteen year old scared shitless Harry Dresden wasn't exactly buckling under the Outsider psychic attack either. Impressive since young Harry had no clue as to what or why he was being attacked. He had no defense since he didn't know at the time that there was such a thing as a psychic attack, or how to defend himself from it. He kept up his adolescent smart ass fall back defense act that we've all become familiar with, and it more or less worked. We don't know how long it would have worked because HWWB decided to murder the gas station attendant, which horrified and piss young Harry off and he ignited the gas pump. So while perhaps not definitive, whoever sent the Walker did get quite a bit of data on young star born Harry Dresden.
We appear to agree.I don’t think we have seen an accurate or full version of these events either.
I wouldn't argue with that.
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I would suggest Bonea has the full version, and will exposition the hell out of it at some point in the future like a good little Talking Head.
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I would suggest Bonea has the full version, and will exposition the hell out of it at some point in the future like a good little Talking Head.
I suspect (rather strongly) that (just like with "real" biology & reproduction) Bonea will be 50% Lash + 50% Harry... and NOT contain 100% of either; and that the Shadow in turn only contained a tiny fraction of Lasciel's knowledge: the info most-likely to tempt one Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, the utility that would make him want more of the same.
Given that Lash had *just* promised to tell Harry about his mom & about the whole Starborn thing, that's the only bit of info that I'm (relatively) certain Bonea holds.
Next-most-likely, I think, are extra info on Outsiders, and secret/confidential info on the White Council & the Black Council, and/or any other powerful magical agents moving pieces behind the scenes.
Finally... I'm pretty certain that there's some info (info Harry would consider critical) that Lasciel never placed into her Shadow. And, I suspect, there is some false information -- things Lash "knew" and Bonea "knows" that Lasciel implanted as explicit disinformation.
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I suspect (rather strongly) that (just like with "real" biology & reproduction) Bonea will be 50% Lash + 50% Harry... and NOT contain 100% of either; and that the Shadow in turn only contained a tiny fraction of Lasciel's knowledge: the info most-likely to tempt one Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, the utility that would make him want more of the same.
Given that Lash had *just* promised to tell Harry about his mom & about the whole Starborn thing, that's the only bit of info that I'm (relatively) certain Bonea holds.
Next-most-likely, I think, are extra info on Outsiders, and secret/confidential info on the White Council & the Black Council, and/or any other powerful magical agents moving pieces behind the scenes.
Finally... I'm pretty certain that there's some info (info Harry would consider critical) that Lasciel never placed into her Shadow. And, I suspect, there is some false information -- things Lash "knew" and Bonea "knows" that Lasciel implanted as explicit disinformation.
I do not think it is all that elaborate. The shadow was never meant to be active for more than a few days or at most weeks.
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I believe there is a WOJ (referring to Bob) that Spirits of intellect inherit the full memories of both parents.
There is no way Harry even contributed one recipe for pancakes let alone 50% of them!
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I believe there is a WOJ (referring to Bob) that Spirits of intellect inherit the full memories of both parents.
There is no way Harry even contributed one recipe for pancakes let alone 50% of them!
I agree, Harry wouldn't, he was never a cook, Lasciel would, she had the knowledge of an angel, which she always was, fallen or not.
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Bonea has the full memories (unbuggered around with by virtually everyone) and Lasciel.
She can be a reliable narrator and more, she can review Harry’s early memories and help him solve his fathers death, and his abduction into the foster care care system, as well as what really happened with Justin, details he has forgotten, or didn’t realise were important at the time.
Lasciel’s memories on the other hand give exposition as to the Denarians, what they really are doing. Lasciel was frantic to get Bonea, but what if it wasn’t maternal concern but instead dread that millenia long plans were being exposed? Things even Nick isn’t aware of?