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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on November 02, 2021, 07:50:47 PM
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That seems like a perfectly rational thing to do. Was she punishing herself for acceding to Harry’s request?
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That seems like a perfectly rational thing to do. Was she punishing herself for acceding to Harry’s request?
It could also be a quick death.
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He threw Molly under the bus. He broke trust. Why would she do that given what he did? Uriel spells it out.
“It is one thing for you to say, ‘Let the world burn.’ It is another to say, ‘Let Molly burn.’ The difference is all in the name.” “Yeah,” I croaked. “I’m starting to realize that. Too late to do any good. But I get it.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 555). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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He threw Molly under the bus. He broke trust. Why would she do that given what he did? Uriel spells it out.
So… she hurt herself to punish Harry?
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So… she hurt herself to punish Harry?
Harry preaches at her in Turn Coat about just this thing. Under pressure he asks her to do just what he told her she shouldn't do. This is the very reason she was under the Doom. If a friend or a mentor does that to you, do you trust them?I stared at her for a minute. Then I said, in a very quiet voice, “I always know when I’m being tempted to do something very, very wrong. I start sentences with phrases like, ‘I would never, ever do this—but.’ Or ‘I know this is wrong but.’ It’s the but that tips you off.”
Do a really deep dive into Ghost Story because this is exactly the point. The whole book is about the chickens coming home to roost for Harry's bad choices for Molly.
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Harry preaches at her in Turn Coat about just this thing. Under pressure he asks her to do just what he told her she shouldn't do. This is the very reason she was under the Doom. If a friend or a mentor does that to you, do you trust them?Do a really deep dive into Ghost Story because this is exactly the point. The whole book is about the chickens coming home to roost for Harry's bad choices for Molly.
I just finished a re-read of GS today. I do get your point. However, Molly has agency. She could, probably should have, refused Harry’s request. Why didn’t she attempt to take care of herself when Harry died?
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I just finished a re-read of GS today. I do get your point. However, Molly has agency. She could, probably should have, refused Harry’s request.
Probably but her choice to trust and help her mentor was totally understandable. Harry got a push from the fallen but it was not like his choice was that strange for Harry either.
Why didn’t she attempt to take care of herself when Harry died?
She did. Maybe she could have done better but she was a warlock on the run and there was nothing she could have done about that.
She probably overestimated the effort the white council would put into it but that was understandable too and you want to err on the safe side in these situations.
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Mab states it in Cold Days when she tells Harry...
“Did she choose to be born with her gift for the Art? Did she choose to become someone so sensitive that she can hardly remain in a crowded room? I did not do that to her—you did.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 511). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Harry preaches at her in Turn Coat about just this thing. Under pressure he asks her to do just what he told her she shouldn't do. This is the very reason she was under the Doom. If a friend or a mentor does that to you, do you trust them?
Technically, his consent in asking for her to do the memory tampering for him makes all the difference.
But I don't find it odd in the slightest that she'd choose not to take her chances with beheading on the prospect that any of Harry's friends would either take her on without wanting a soulgaze before staking their own lives on her rehabilitation, would not notice her feelings of guilt and shame in said soulgaze, or would accept what she'd done once they figured out the specifics. What she did doesn't have to be illegal in and of itself to kill her, it just has to anger or horrify the people she would be asking to intercede in the suspended death sentence she was already under and cause them to turn their backs on her.
On top of that, Lea had plans to train Molly in her own direction. It's highly likely she would have been advising Molly of every reason not to go to the Council that she didn't think of on her own. Lea might even have been actively disrupting any any council allies who looked for her with the intent to step in for Harry - she could rationalize that as protecting Molly from them finding out what she did and turning on her for it.
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Even worse. Going to Eb or Listen to Wind was never a suggestion to be taken seriously. Even trying to find them was too dangerous. It is not that she could just visit Edinburgh or knew where they lived.
Harry also did not contact them to ask what was possible in case he died.
The whole suggestion was much like what Nicodemus said to his daughter before he killed her. It was empty words to make Molly and Harry go through with it.
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At the end of Changes, Molly was physically hurt, but still "clean" as far as the Council goes. Remember at the end of Turn Coat,Morgan says he said nothing about her backsliding to the Council. Would Luccio even be believed if she did decide to finger Molly because of all the psychological damage done to her by Peabody's ink. So yeah, she could have gone to Eb or Listens,especially if she had Michael by her side when she did it. You could make a whole pig out of all the bacon he has saved for the Council during the war with the Red Court and beyond. Also she could have refused Harry's request to assist him in the first place. Everyone seems to want to treat Molly like she was some victim. She was not, as of Changes she was over eighteen, so technically an adult, and even as a young kid she has always rebelled and had a mind of her own. It was thirteen year old Molly who suggested to Harry as she slipped out of her Catholic School uniform to "tie Susan up first" so he could have sex with her without being eaten in Death Masks. Molly was never some weak willed innocent, actually she is very much a chip off of her mother's block. Both have talent, both rebelled early and got themselves into trouble, both were saved by a shinning knight.. But there it ends because while Charity took the hint when a Holy Knight saved her and let her talent fade, Molly's knight was a wizard. So why didn't Molly go to Eb or Listens? Because she had her own ideas and because when it was time for a wizard to step up to take the Doom with her, the only one willing was Harry, and he was dead as far as she knew. She was also there at the end of Turn Coat, she knows what happened to Morgan, that he was innocent yet the Council wanted him convicted for political reasons.. So that was incentive enough for her not to trust anyone on the Council. Where was Carlos when all of this went down? He told Harry later I think that he chose to look the other way when she was the Rag Lady, but at the same time he could have stepped forward and offered to take the Doom with her. He didn't, now she is some kind of monster as far as he is concerned.
Ghost Story about the coming home to roost? Perhaps, easy for us to moralize while reading it. I think one can argue that it was wrong for Harry to drag Molly into it so he could get out of becoming Mab's monster. However when Harry was in the process of "throwing Molly under the bus" as you say, his vision for his future was distorted and he wasn't playing with a full mental deck. In that moment he couldn't see beyond the four walls of Forthill's office, but then neither could Molly. Harry's huge mistake here happened before that moment, his mistake in my opinion was not giving her the moral foundational training that Eb had given him. That moral foundation about magic, Molly never got it, from the time she screwed with the minds of her friends to the blocking of Harry's memory to assist his suicide, she always felt she could justify it if she felt it was the right thing to do. That is what made her a warlock, there was no rehabbing her from that view point. Her actions with her friends did great harm, but she thought she was helping them, did she ever repent that viewpoint? I don't remember her ever doing that.. She was told not to put her fingers on the hot stove least she get burnt, but she continued anyway and no one forced her.
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Even worse. Going to Eb or Listen to Wind was never a suggestion to be taken seriously. Even trying to find them was too dangerous. It is not that she could just visit Edinburgh or knew where they lived.
Morgan showed her how to open ways in TC. She knew where the way to Edinburgh opened in Chicago. She traveled it in TC and Changes.
Harry also did not contact them to ask what was possible in case he died.
That’s true.
The whole suggestion was much like what Nicodemus said to his daughter before he killed her. It was empty words to make Molly and Harry go through with it.
Ouch.
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Morgan showed her how to open ways in TC. She knew where the way to Edinburgh opened in Chicago. She traveled it in TC and Changes.
Yes, she did, but she also witnessed Council justice before, both her own near miss and what happened to Morgan. I doubt she felt she'd find any sympathy there for her plight. Now if Carlos
had been able to talk with her and went to Edinburgh with her, or offered to be her new mentor or supervisor and put himself under the Doom with her, she might have had a chance. He didn't, though he found her physically attractive, did he ever look beyond that? Maybe Molly knew that too, and it was for this reason that her mantle reacted so violently to his attempted love making?
That’s true.
It's true that he didn't, but his mental state wasn't the best and he couldn't see beyond himself and little Maggie. And after Maggie was saved and he had the chance to talk to Eb about Molly, his mind was already blocked so he had no idea of what was coming next.
Oh, and one more thought, even though Eb didn't know of Harry's looming suicide, he did know he was now Mab's Winter Knight.. Remember his advice to Harry about how Mab can't totally force him to do things against his will, or something like that, it meshes with Uriel's seven words. Anyway, what I am getting at is knowing that, Eb never asked Harry about what happens to Molly now? Nor did Harry ask Eb to look after her once he'd been shipped off to Arctus Tor.
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Morgan showed her how to open ways in TC. She knew where the way to Edinburgh opened in Chicago. She traveled it in TC and Changes.
That would mean walking into Edinburgh blindly. The Merlin would love that and execute her on the spot. Technically she was a warlock on the run and after Harry was dead no formalities were needed, the suspension of her dead sentence was over.
Just walking into Edinburgh was out of question.
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That would mean walking into Edinburgh blindly. The Merlin would love that and execute on the spot. Technically she was a warlock on the run and after Harry was dead no formalities were needed, the suspension of her dead sentence was over.
Just walking into Edinburgh was out of question.
Why would she be, if it wasn't her doing that he was dead. All she needed was another wizard to step forward to take up her apprenticeship. None did. Instead of looking the other way as things got worse for her, if Carlos had captured her, soul gazed her and then offered to take Harry's place.
Truth is no one gave a damn about the fate of Molly, only Mab for very selfish reasons.
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Molly had agency sure but Ghost Story is not about that, it is about Harry and Harry is responsible for how he influenced Molly.
And Harry asked her to do it. It does not mean she is not responsible but it does mean Harry is responsible too. It is not a binary thing.
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Why would she be, if it wasn't her doing that he was dead. All she needed was another wizard to step forward to take up her apprenticeship. None did. Instead of looking the other way as things got worse for her, if Carlos had captured her, soul gazed her and then offered to take Harry's place.
Truth is no one gave a damn about the fate of Molly, only Mab for very selfish reasons.
But until someone took up that responsibility and that was recognized by the rest of the council. Someone who was prepared to risk death for her sake like Harry did. Until that time she was just a warlock on the run not because something she did in changes but because something she did in Proven Guilty. Carlos had his orders.
We can not expect anyone else to take up that burden. The chances for example that Eb would just have executed her are pretty high, she was not her granddaughter after all and he can be like that. The chances are that if she met somebody else first were even bigger.
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But until someone took up that responsibility and that was recognized by the rest of the council. Someone who was prepared to risk death for her sake like Harry did. Until that time she was just a warlock on the run not because something she did in changes but because something she did in Proven Guilty. Carlos had his orders.
We can not expect anyone else to take up that burden. The chances for example that Eb would just have executed her are pretty high, she was not her granddaughter after all and he can be like that. The chances are that if she met somebody else first were even bigger.
So Molly was doomed in any case, even if she never blocked his memories, he'd still be Winter Knight and she'd be on her own. But that is the whole point isn't it? Do you think that either Listens or Eb would have stepped up to take responsibility for her? Listens maybe, but not Eb. The situation with young Harry wasn't a simple clear case of taking on a would be warlock apprentice with him. Yes, Harry was under the Doom, and Eb had orders to kill him if he slipped, but nothing is said about Eb also getting the chop.
Molly had agency sure but Ghost Story is not about that, it is about Harry and Harry is responsible for how he influenced Molly.
I also think that is over stated.. 1] If Harry knew Molly had talent do you think he would have acted differently around her? 2] Charity kept it all under wraps thinking Molly's talent would just go away if she did or said nothing about it. Worse she aggravated Molly's interest in Harry by constantly harping on the evils of magic, in other words, forbidden fruit. Also do you think Harry's "influence" level on her would had been the same if she never had any magical talent?
And Harry asked her to do it. It does not mean she is not responsible but it does mean Harry is responsible too. It is not a binary thing.
Yes, and no, Harry was totally messed up mentally at that moment, all he could think about is saving his little girl and then the drastic move of killing himself so as not to become Mab's monster. He really cannot be held responsible, add in the poison of Lasciel's words "and it is all your fault!" Dialing emotions and desire for self loathing up to about 10. I think all of the above is the view that Uriel took.
With Molly it is also a case of yes and no, she was an adult, she was also raised in a strict Catholic home which aggravated her guilt to about 10 after the fact. On one hand she was helping the man she loved to kill himself, understood why he wanted to kill himself, knew she was the only one to help him kill himself, on the other hand suicide in one of the big no, no's sin wise in the faith she was brought up in.. So in for a penny in for a pound as they say, perhaps she already saw herself as damned so why not go full warlock? Also considering her emotions when she helped Harry she cannot be held fully responsible either.
Both needed an intervention to talk common sense, but there was no one at the time.
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So Molly was doomed in any case, even if she never blocked his memories, he'd still be Winter Knight and she'd be on her own.
Harry being winter knight does not change his status with the white council and Molly’s status with Harry and the white council automatically. Everything would still have been negotiable and that with Mab’s shadow over it.
But that is the whole point isn't it? Do you think that either Listens or Eb would have stepped up to take responsibility for her?
And had Molly any reason to think they would? I think mostly no on all accounts.
Listens maybe, but not Eb. The situation with young Harry wasn't a simple clear case of taking on a would be warlock apprentice with him. Yes, Harry was under the Doom, and Eb had orders to kill him if he slipped, but nothing is said about Eb also getting the chop.I also think that is over stated.. 1] If Harry knew Molly had talent do you think he would have acted differently around her?
If he had known earlier he would have discussed it with Michael and they would have watched her more closely. Michael always has a good influence on Harry so I think it would have ended much better and the white council would not have sentenced her.
2] Charity kept it all under wraps thinking Molly's talent would just go away if she did or said nothing about it. Worse she aggravated Molly's interest in Harry by constantly harping on the evils of magic, in other words, forbidden fruit. Also do you think Harry's "influence" level on her would had been the same if she never had any magical talent?
No, she would have found other examples.
Yes, and no, Harry was totally messed up mentally at that moment, all he could think about is saving his little girl and then the drastic move of killing himself so as not to become Mab's monster. He really cannot be held responsible, add in the poison of Lasciel's words "and it is all your fault!"
Not completely responsible maybe but it only needed a small push, it is not like it was out of character as Michael and Thomas knew.
Dialing emotions and desire for self loathing up to about 10. I think all of the above is the view that Uriel took.
Uriel had two views. Yes the fallen was to blame so he could do something about it but also Harry had some problems the fallen had exploited and something had to be done about that.
With Molly it is also a case of yes and no, she was an adult, she was also raised in a strict Catholic home which aggravated her guilt to about 10 after the fact. On one hand she was helping the man she loved to kill himself, understood why he wanted to kill himself, knew she was the only one to help him kill himself, on the other hand suicide in one of the big no, no's sin wise in the faith she was brought up in.. So in for a penny in for a pound as they say, perhaps she already saw herself as damned so why not go full warlock? Also considering her emotions when she helped Harry she cannot be held fully responsible either.
Both needed an intervention to talk common sense, but there was no one at the time.
There were a lot of people with common sense around but they were kept out of it. Thomas, Michael, Karin, ......
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The only one who had made a promise to Molly was Harry. He broke it, because his daughter was more important then his promise. You can debate the morality of that, but it is what he did.
As a discussion of what the author is writing, this has been ongoing since the first book. Harry isn't reliable. He doesn't keep his word. He'll promise anything to get what he wants and then try to get out of it.
Jim has Murphy tell him at one point, that he should spend more time not getting into these messes rather than trying to get out of them, referring to his deals with Lea and Mab. And it isn't just Mab. He hires Kincaid without any idea of where the money is going to come from to pay him. Then Thomas has to bail him out. As a character I wouldn't loan him money or let him sleep over at my house. ;D
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That is another thing. Harry abused the teacher pupil relationship. That is very serious. He should have teacher her a different lesson.
In some ways Lea did a better job as she pointed out to Harry.
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Harry being winter knight does not change his status with the white council and Molly’s status with Harry and the white council automatically. Everything would still have been negotiable and that with Mab’s shadow over it.
Would it? With Mab's shadow hanging over everything? You really think that would work out well?
And had Molly any reason to think they would? I think mostly no on all accounts.
It would matter if Molly had a reason, but she got her answer at her trial.
If he had known earlier he would have discussed it with Michael and they would have watched her more closely. Michael always has a good influence on Harry so I think it would have ended much better and the white council would not have sentenced her.
But he didn't know, did he? Charity made sure he didn't know, she would have overruled any discussion about Molly's talents between Michael and Harry. Plus that little rebellious streak was in Molly from the get go, that is what got her into trouble in the first place.
No, she would have found other examples.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean that they'd be good ones. Molly went out of her way to do opposite of what her mother especially wanted.. Call it a teenage thing. Considering who she ran with, without talent she still could have gotten into a lot of trouble.
Uriel had two views. Yes the fallen was to blame so he could do something about it but also Harry had some problems the fallen had exploited and something had to be done about that.
Not just exploited, Lasciel knew Harry intimately, her shadow lived in his head for many years, she knew exactly what buttons to push.
There were a lot of people with common sense around but they were kept out of it. Thomas, Michael, Karin, ......
Let's not forget that Changes is all about Harry going to these people for help to save little Maggie, but it wasn't enough, they had no answers.. He even summoned an archangel to plea for help, an old Norse god, in the end he was left with the least bad of several bad options. The only Winter Knight in action he ever witnessed was Slate, and what he had heard of others, Bob had told him. Harry didn't want to become a monster. Ironic that Carlos now calls him a monster, but I digress. Uriel tells him before he makes his decision that if he strays from the path out of love, he can get back on the path.. But did Harry really have time to ponder that? Eb tells him at C.I. that Mab cannot really force him to go against his will, but the dye had already been cast by then.. Uriel's seven words were great and made Harry feel better, but the damage had already been done.
The only one who had made a promise to Molly was Harry. He broke it, because his daughter was more important then his promise. You can debate the morality of that, but it is what he did.
Yeah, letting your daughter die, your grandfather die, and yourself die, for a promise... Morally that can be argued several ways depending on point of view and belief system. However to think Molly wasn't unaware of what she did, is a mistake, she knew exactly what she was doing and knew that sometimes promises have to be broken. She made the decision she made just like when she went into the heads of her friends to cure their drug addiction.
As a discussion of what the author is writing, this has been ongoing since the first book. Harry isn't reliable. He doesn't keep his word. He'll promise anything to get what he wants and then try to get out of it.
That simply isn't true, if it were, he would have taken up a coin a long time ago and Michael wouldn't be his friend.
Jim has Murphy tell him at one point, that he should spend more time not getting into these messes rather than trying to get out of them, referring to his deals with Lea and Mab. And it isn't just Mab. He hires Kincaid without any idea of where the money is going to come from to pay him. Then Thomas has to bail him out. As a character I wouldn't loan him money or let him sleep over at my house
Um, he was a scared 16 year old kid when he made his deal with Lea.. Mab bought the contract, Murphy has no clue about any of that, she thinks she does, but she has no clue how that even works. Which deal? The one to clear out Mavra's nest or the one to shoot him through the heart? If he is so untrustworthy how is it he ends up with the Spear of Destiny?
at is another thing. Harry abused the teacher pupil relationship. That is very serious. He should have teacher her a different lesson.
He may have been wrong about some stuff, but he didn't abuse the teach/pupil relationship. He never tried to exploit or abuse her. Taught her a different lesson? About what? Let us not forget he wasn't the only teacher in her life, she had her parents, Michael and Charity, Father Forthill, she was around Murphy, other Holy Knights, on the whole a pretty solid foundation.
In some ways Lea did a better job as she pointed out to Harry.
Yes, and the Fae are tricky, they like to twist, Lea did a good job in preparing Molly to be a Lady, that was never Harry's goal. His goal was to mostly to help her keep her head and his along with it.
Lea didn't give a damn if what she taught Molly may cost her her head.
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Jim set the stakes for Harry's obligation to Molly, life or death. If Harry didn't want the obligation he should have let Molly die in Proven Guilty. The end result would have been the same.
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Molly had agency sure but Ghost Story is not about that, it is about Harry and Harry is responsible for how he influenced Molly.
And Harry asked her to do it. It does not mean she is not responsible but it does mean Harry is responsible too. It is not a binary thing.
Honestly, the laser focus on Harry hurts the series. Particularly the last two books they would have been much better had it been from multiple POVs. A battle of that scale seems small when seen through the eyes of one person.
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Jim set the stakes for Harry's obligation to Molly, life or death. If Harry didn't want the obligation he should have let Molly die in Proven Guilty. The end result would have been the same.
He did his best with in his capacity.. He was her mentor, not her parents, her thoughts and attitudes were shaped before he became her teacher. None of us is perfect, especially Harry, on the contrary he is all too human. It is a wonder really that Harry functions at all, from the age of 6 until he was sixteen he wasn't loved, he got no moral guidance, no support. Harry learned one lesson well, that was to survive.
Molly assisting Harry's suicide or going to C.I. even though he told her not to go, was done out of love and her part. Not unlike Murphy leaving Art's Place in Battle Ground after Harry told her to stay there to protect those who had taken shelter. She did that out of love also, and the desire to be part of the action, did Harry fail there as well because she didn't listen to him? Yes, Harry took on obligations to Molly and he failed with some of them. But it is also true that Molly isn't some fragile little doll being manipulated, she made her own choices, early on.
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Honestly, the laser focus on Harry hurts the series. Particularly the last two books they would have been much better had it been from multiple POVs. A battle of that scale seems small when seen through the eyes of one person.
Multiple POV tends to break the story. I want to skip chapters to continue with the POV I was reading.
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Would it? With Mab's shadow hanging over everything? You really think that would work out well?
The Gatekeeper saw no problem in Harry being the winter knight. Molly would have had a few years extra until Harry got into trouble with the council. Enough time maybe to become a wizard herself or arrange something else.
It would matter if Molly had a reason, but she got her answer at her trial.But he didn't know, did he? Charity made sure he didn't know, she would have overruled any discussion about Molly's talents between Michael and Harry.
The question was what if Harry knew? Michael is not stupid. He would have had a discussion with his wife and they would come up with something better than ignoring it.
Plus that little rebellious streak was in Molly from the get go, that is what got her into trouble in the first place.
Sure but ignoring it is always worse. Some things were drilled into her and difficult to ignore by her. She did stay a virgin and she did not use heroine for example. They could have tried the same thing with the seven laws. It would not have been automatically hopeless.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean that they'd be good ones. Molly went out of her way to do opposite of what her mother especially wanted.. Call it a teenage thing.
Sure but a combination of Harry and Michael could have prevented things in an earlier stage, that was the question I was answering.
Considering who she ran with, without talent she still could have gotten into a lot of trouble.
Sure but not with the council so no beheading. She did have some boundaries so there was a good chance she would recover from it.
Not just exploited, Lasciel knew Harry intimately, her shadow lived in his head for many years, she knew exactly what buttons to push.
But the buttons were there in his nature. None of his friends who knew him best were really surprised.
Let's not forget that Changes is all about Harry going to these people for help to save little Maggie, but it wasn't enough, they had no answers.. He even summoned an archangel to plea for help, an old Norse god, in the end he was left with the least bad of several bad options. The only Winter Knight in action he ever witnessed was Slate, and what he had heard of others, Bob had told him. Harry didn't want to become a monster. Ironic that Carlos now calls him a monster, but I digress. Uriel tells him before he makes his decision that if he strays from the path out of love, he can get back on the path.. But did Harry really have time to ponder that? Eb tells him at C.I. that Mab cannot really force him to go against his will, but the dye had already been cast by then.. Uriel's seven words were great and made Harry feel better, but the damage had already been done. Yeah, letting your daughter die, your grandfather die, and yourself die, for a promise... Morally that can be argued several ways depending on point of view and belief system. However to think Molly wasn't unaware of what she did, is a mistake, she knew exactly what she was doing and knew that sometimes promises have to be broken. She made the decision she made just like when she went into the heads of her friends to cure their drug addiction.
Not the point. This is about Harry. That a person has free will is never an argument to tempt or ask that person to do something wrong and also not a cop out for you when you asked it. Especially if you have influence over and responsibility for that person and Harry had both.
That is what con men do. They find a soft target and they will tell you it is their fault because they are stupid and greedy but that does not absolve them. There are always people to abuse.
That simply isn't true, if it were, he would have taken up a coin a long time ago and Michael wouldn't be his friend.
Harry has potential and can be saved but his road to hell is still open. Exactly the kind of person Michael wants to help.
Um, he was a scared 16 year old kid when he made his deal with Lea.. Mab bought the contract, Murphy has no clue about any of that, she thinks she does, but she has no clue how that even works. Which deal? The one to clear out Mavra's nest or the one to shoot him through the heart? If he is so untrustworthy how is it he ends up with the Spear of Destiny?
Because Nicodemus did not. Moral perfection was not part of the deal.
He may have been wrong about some stuff, but he didn't abuse the teach/pupil relationship. He never tried to exploit or abuse her.
He avoided one form of abuse but not all of them. Abuse is not always about force either. Enlisting her to arrange his suicide is a form of abuse of that relation. At some level she just wanted to please her teacher.
Taking her to CI was another one. He did not even warn her.
Taught her a different lesson? About what? Let us not forget he wasn't the only teacher in her life, she had her parents, Michael and Charity, Father Forthill, she was around Murphy, other Holy Knights, on the whole a pretty solid foundation.
All those other teachers had their own responsibilities to her.
Yes, and the Fae are tricky, they like to twist, Lea did a good job in preparing Molly to be a Lady, that was never Harry's goal. His goal was to mostly to help her keep her head and his along with it.
Lea didn't give a damn if what she taught Molly may cost her her head.
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The Gatekeeper saw no problem in Harry being the winter knight. Molly would have had a few years extra until Harry got into trouble with the council. Enough time maybe to become a wizard herself or arrange something else.
But that is Rashid, who sees things differently, at Molly's trial he is the only one until the rest returned that didn't just rubber stamp her execution. And I doubt that he voted for Harry's expulsion from the Council, most likely wasn't even there. Would she have had those extra years? Woulda, shoulda, coulda, that is hypothetical, in Turn Coat she had already back slid once, and both her and Harry could have lost their heads except Morgan and Luccio didn't turn her in. It wasn't what Harry was teaching, or how he was teaching, or worry about her beloved Harry losing his head as well, none of that stopped her from violating the Law when she thought she was right. It could simply be that the Merlin was right, the slippery slope to warlockhood is steep and almost impossible to come back from.
The question was what if Harry knew? Michael is not stupid. He would have had a discussion with his wife and they would come up with something better than ignoring it.
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Michael knew that his wife had talent once, I cannot believe he didn't give it a thought on whether or not that trait could be handed down to one of his kids. Perhaps he thought if he raised them to be God fearing with in the Faith, there wouldn't be a problem. We've no answer to that question, except neither he nor Charity discussed this at any time with Harry. But then I remember a time, and there are still are people out there who think if you teach sex education that it only encourages
kids to have sex..
Sure but ignoring it is always worse. Some things were drilled into her and difficult to ignore by her. She did stay a virgin and she did not use heroine for example. They could have tried the same thing with the seven laws. It would not have been automatically hopeless.
But apparently they didn't, I am not even sure that either Charity or Michael know what the Seven Laws are, their focus was the Ten Commandments. And you are right Molly believes in them, that is what damaged her when she assisted Harry's suicide. Her heart and mind agreed with what Harry wanted, that is why she did it, however her conscience tore her apart because assisting a suicide goes so against the Faith she was raised in. Which brings up yet another point, why didn't she go to her father and mother, or Father Forthill after Harry died and confess what she had done and why she did it. They could have helped her more than Eb or even Listens to Wind, once her head was back on straight, then Michael himself could have taken her to the Council and plea that someone step forward to either test her to be a full wizard or finish her apprenticeship.
Sure but a combination of Harry and Michael could have prevented things in an earlier stage, that was the question I was answering.
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Could have, but prevention only works when you understand what it is you are trying to prevent. We know from Proven Guilty that Harry had no clue as to whether any of the Carpenter kids had talent, and because he was never told about Charity no reason to suspect it. All Charity knew was when she was Molly's age her talent showed itself and she went down a very dark path. I'd go so far as to say if it weren't that dragon and Michael coming along to kill it and her falling in love with him, she could have lost her own head long ago. She isn't a stupid woman, however out of fear and ignorance she did the worst thing possible for her children, hoping that if she kept it to herself the talent wouldn't rear it's head. This would have happened even if the Carpenters had never met Harry, with perhaps a worse conclusion, because the talent is in the genes not the environment.
Sure but not with the council so no beheading. She did have some boundaries so there was a good chance she would recover from it.
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True, no beheading, but the streets of Chicago are rough places, a lot of ugly things can happen to runaways who take to the streets. She wouldn't have been the first nor sadly the last to be killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or raped etc, her up bringing wouldn't save her from those things.
But the buttons were there in his nature. None of his friends who knew him best were really surprised.
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Of course they weren't, we all have buttons that others who know us well can push and do. Yes, his friends may have known about them, but because they were his friends they didn't try to manipulate him by pushing them. Lasciel did, that is why it was such a big deal when Harry threw off her Shadow, in the end he resisted the button pushing. She was only really successful when he was hurt and desperate, and then she did it out of revenge, she wanted him dead... She knows Harry's over developed conscience, hurt, so much on the line, he is helpless to do anything, "and it is all your fault!"
Not the point. This is about Harry. That a person has free will is never an argument to tempt or ask that person to do something wrong and also not a cop out for you when you asked it. Especially if you have influence over and responsibility for that person and Harry had both.
Did he really? Perhaps in her teenage mind Harry was some kind of hero, but then so was her father. That was no more Harry's fault than it is Michael's. When Harry was at the Carpenters recovering from injuries it was because he and Michael had fought together to save some portion of the world from something. Heck they named their youngest son after him. However Harry wasn't at the Carpenters on a daily basis, he didn't see them much socially, his impression was that Charity didn't like him so he seldom visited the house. Go back and read the passages when he and young Molly interacted, Harry never overtly or covertly tried to influence her.. The BIG THING is he was kept IGNORANT of her mother's history, so he had no reason to look for talent. Molly didn't attempt cute magical parlor tricks around him, she didn't suddenly become Wonder Woman on the play ground. Harry only saw her as a nice intelligent kid who helped her mother raise her younger bothers and sisters. And even if he had been able to spot her talent before it all went wrong, would Charity have allowed him to either begin her training or get another better qualified wizard who could? Michael might have gone along with it, but what of Charity? She only went along with it after the horse had left the barn and her daughter's head was in real jeopardy.
That is what con men do. They find a soft target and they will tell you it is their fault because they are stupid and greedy but that does not absolve them. There are always people to abuse.
But Harry never tried to con Molly, he didn't preplan his suicide thus grooming Molly to assist him.. She got a real dose of reality at her trial, she knew what was at stake when she attempted to go into Luccio and Morgan's minds.. She didn't do that because Harry groomed her to do that or abused her so she'd do that. She did it because she still suffered from the black magic addiction that ultimately creates a warlock. That is why it is so hard to rehab one.
Harry has potential and can be saved but his road to hell is still open. Exactly the kind of person Michael wants to help.
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Yes, and it is thus for all of us.. We all have free will and make choices, and sometimes that road is paved with good intentions that leads to hell.
Because Nicodemus did not. Moral perfection was not part of the deal.
I'm not so sure about that, remember what Hades said about the Artifacts, they only end up in the hands of those who pass the test. Morality could very well be part of it,Nic was lying to begin with, he willingly sacrificed his daughter so he could gain his prize.. Ever stop to think that requiring a blood sacrifice was part of the test? God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac, and he was willing to go along with it.. However an angel stopped him when he was willing to do that. The point is that Nic was willing to sacrifice his daughter, not to prove his love of God but to gain a prize for power, then he lied to her, saying in Hades her soul wouldn't face judgement or punishment from the Almighty.
He avoided one form of abuse but not all of them. Abuse is not always about force either. Enlisting her to arrange his suicide is a form of abuse of that relation. At some level she just wanted to please her teacher.
You know as well as I that it was a lot more complicated than that. There are mitigating factors, i.e. Harry's state of mind, he was hurt, a Fallen Angel had just whispered that it was all his fault, he was being forced into becoming what he didn't want to be, a monster. There was no one to tell him that becoming Winter Knight wouldn't necessarily make him a monster. Uriel could have, but he didn't.. So he thought of the one way out of it, death, and the only person who could help him fool Mab was Molly. Would he have done it had he realized what kind of harm he was doing to her? I won't say that he wouldn't have,but he may have explained it better to her in order for her to make her decision. People assist the suicide of their loved ones every day,why? Because they want to end their suffering. Some do suffer the damage of conscience like Molly did, and others never lose a moments sleep over it. The point is they too were asked, did the loved one who asked them abuse them by asking?
All those other teachers had their own responsibilities to her.
Yes, and it is the sum of all those teachers, not just Harry.. He should have let them cut off her head because he failed some of his responsibilities later to her? Really? She was in the position to lose her head before Harry ever was her teacher, that damage had already been done. She understood the stakes once he became her teacher, the point is, saving her from the chop gave her a chance. Not unlike the Holy Knights, their job is giving a chance for redemption, but the redeeming part is up to the Denarian who gives up the coin and given another chance at life. Harry saved her head the first time, but rest was really up to Molly.
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Nothing that anybody else did or didn't do has anything to do with Harry's obligation. Nor does it have anything to do with Molly's agency. Harry failed his obligation to Molly. It doesn't matter if he asked and she acquiesced. He shouldn't have asked. It's that simple.
Molly can choose to go to hell by her own free will. But Harry had no right to use his position to push her.Honestly, the laser focus on Harry hurts the series. Particularly the last two books they would have been much better had it been from multiple POVs. A battle of that scale seems small when seen through the eyes of one person.
It might have been better if he had embraced the claustrophobia of combat.
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Nothing that anybody else did or didn't do has anything to do with Harry's obligation. Nor does it have anything to do with Molly's agency. Harry failed his obligation to Molly. It doesn't matter if he asked and she acquiesced. He shouldn't have asked. It's that simple.
Molly can choose to go to hell by her own free will. But Harry had no right to use his position to push her.It might have been better if he had embraced the claustrophobia of combat.
You make it sound like Harry coldly and calculatingly put her in that position. It didn't go down that way, plain and simple. Harry was at the end of his rope, mentally, physically, emotionally, he was choosing death/suicide rather than become a monster. However he couldn't do it alone. Yes, it put Molly in a tough position, but to think she didn't understand and made her own choice, you are mistaken.. That is why she doesn't hold a grudge towards Harry. Yes, he put her in a tough position so do a lot of desperate people who ask of us stuff that maybe they shouldn't. However agreeing to it or not agreeing is her choice.. Yes, that was hard on her, but consider the alternative, if little Maggie, Harry, and Eb all died at once or Harry's worst fears about being Winter Knight came true and he ended up like Slate.. What would that do to her head if she had chosen to say, no..
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It isn't about Molly. It's about Harry. It doesn't matter why he did it. No outcome is ever about the events of that moment. He made the choice of how he was going to live and what happened was a direct result of that choice. Every step Harry takes has consequences and he moves like a bull in a china shop.
Frankly it's starting to get old, at least for me. Jim needs to raise his game and get on with it. It looked like Skin Game could have been that book But the followup brought out every bad habit he has.
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It isn't about Molly. It's about Harry. It doesn't matter why he did it. No outcome is ever about the events of that moment. He made the choice of how he was going to live and what happened was a direct result of that choice. Every step Harry takes has consequences and he moves like a bull in a china shop.
Frankly it's starting to get old, at least for me. Jim needs to raise his game and get on with it. It looked like Skin Game could have been that book But the followup brought out every bad habit he has.
Sure it is about Molly, and the choices she made as well. Harry didn't do anything to her that she hadn't already done to herself. If she was this poor victim of Harry's manipulation, Mab wouldn't have taken any interest in her and she'd suck worse than Lily as Lady..
Harry has made some bad choices, but he also made a lot of good choices as well. No, he didn't make a choice as to how he was going to live.. He didn't chose for his mother to be murdered shortly after his birth, he didn't chose for his father to be murdered when he was six, he didn't chose to live in an orphanage for the next five years or to be adopted by a warlock who wanted to make a weapon out of him.. He didn't chose to have magical talent, he didn't chose to be star born, he didn't chose to have a real fae godmother, nor did he chose to have a vampire brother... All those things shaped him and they were not of his choosing. He's worked his way around them as best he could, with mixed results.
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You make it sound like Harry coldly and calculatingly put her in that position.
That is another point that comes up regularly in the books, your emotions are not always your best councilors. No it was not coldly and calculatingly but it was what he did.
It didn't go down that way, plain and simple. Harry was at the end of his rope, mentally, physically, emotionally, he was choosing death/suicide rather than become a monster. However he couldn't do it alone. Yes, it put Molly in a tough position, but to think she didn't understand and made her own choice, you are mistaken..
She shared Harry’s misunderstanding but again Molly’s agency is not the point, this is about what Harry did.
Harry was in a position of power and responsibility over Molly. That makes all matters of consent troublesome. That is not just about sex, that is about everything. That is why how Harry guided her was so important.
That is why she doesn't hold a grudge towards Harry.
That is nice but not the point. And the downside of it is that she held a grudge towards herself.
Yes, he put her in a tough position so do a lot of desperate people who ask of us stuff that maybe they shouldn't. However agreeing to it or not agreeing is her choice..
But this is not “The Carpenter files”. Asking for it was Harry’s choice.
And all the emotional turmoil makes it understandable but not right. At the base of his decision was Harry’s refusal to research things he fears. He did not even know basic things about being winter knight.
Yes, that was hard on her, but consider the alternative, if little Maggie, Harry, and Eb all died at once or Harry's worst fears about being Winter Knight came true and he ended up like Slate.. What would that do to her head if she had chosen to say, no..
The alternative was simple. No suicide and bring Kincaid in stead of Molly. I know about the words of the fallen but Molly did not.
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That is another point that comes up regularly in the books, your emotions are not always your best councilors. No it was not coldly and calculatingly but it was what he did.
Yes, but how it that different than any two people who are close, one is suffering and the other agrees to prevent that suffering? Like I said, assisted suicides happen every day and are agreed upon by the two parties. I also think both Harry and Molly were convinced at that point in time that it would be bad not just for Harry but for the world in general to be Winter Knight. Yes, emotions are not the best to go on, but as humans that is what we often do. I don't think Harry can be condemned or praised on this, it is what it is... Human, and Molly reacted in kind. As I said earlier I don't think her situation would have been better if Harry hadn't asked her.
She shared Harry’s misunderstanding but again Molly’s agency is not the point, this is about what Harry did.
Harry was in a position of power and responsibility over Molly. That makes all matters of consent troublesome. That is not just about sex, that is about everything. That is why how Harry guided her was so important.
True, but at the same time the position Harry was in and his mental/emotional state cannot be discounted. Because of that I feel that he cannot be held fully responsible for what he asked of Molly. Actually not unlike Rudolph shooting Murphy, a lot led up to that moment, the attack on Chicago took him over the edge.
That is nice but not the point. And the downside of it is that she held a grudge towards herself.
But that is also a no win, if she hadn't tried to help Harry I think she would have felt just as guilty. And it is debatable whether or not she had been cured of her tendency to break one of the Laws of Magic by going into people's heads if she thinks it is important she do so.
But this is not “The Carpenter files”. Asking for it was Harry’s choice.
And all the emotional turmoil makes it understandable but not right. At the base of his decision was Harry’s refusal to research things he fears. He did not even know basic things about being winter knight.
But in a sense it is just as much Carpenter Files, because Molly also made a choice, freely.
Harry did try to research his fears, the example before him was Slate.. He did ask Bob, who didn't have exactly the kind of reassuring answers you want if you want to have anything to do with the Winter Court. Of course those answers were based on Bob's own prejudices, but other than Lea, [who didn't give straight answers either], the information was, what it was.
The alternative was simple. No suicide and bring Kincaid in stead of Molly. I know about the words of the fallen but Molly did not.
Not that simple as you know, he did bring Kincaid into it, but if that fact remained in his mind, Mab would know and stop the suicide.. That is why Molly was brought in.. As to the Lasciel effect, no, Molly didn't know about that, she only knew about Harry's mental/emotional state at the time. What we don't know is whether or not she tried to talk him out of it. You have to consider Kincaid as well, yeah, he likes the money and all, but he also went along with it. That is what pissed Ivy off so much. I don't think it was just Harry in a power position over Molly, but that given her information she agreed with him about the Winter Knight gig, as did Kincaid given his information.
It wasn't Harry deliberately taking advantage of Molly, he turned to her because there was no one else.
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At the end of Changes, Molly was physically hurt, but still "clean" as far as the Council goes. Remember at the end of Turn Coat,Morgan says he said nothing about her backsliding to the Council. Would Luccio even be believed if she did decide to finger Molly because of all the psychological damage done to her by Peabody's ink.
Luccio also didn't have a whole lot of latitude to complain about someone peeking at whether her mind had been tampered with, when it had, after OK'ing Molly checking Harry for mental tampering when Michael noticed the removal of fire from his inventory.
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Luccio also didn't have a whole lot of latitude to complain about someone peeking at whether her mind had been tampered with, when it had, after OK'ing Molly checking Harry for mental tampering when Michael noticed the removal of fire from his inventory.
Which might not even be a violation of the law, it could be that Harry and Morgan are just too strict. We know the rules can change somewhat when you want or do not want to behead someone.
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Luccio also didn't have a whole lot of latitude to complain about someone peeking at whether her mind had been tampered with, when it had, after OK'ing Molly checking Harry for mental tampering when Michael noticed the removal of fire from his inventory.
I doubt the Council knew about Molly checking Harry, but yeah, unauthorized, it is against the Law. Now perhaps you can make a plea, she had good reason and a Holy Knight asked her, but it still was breaking the Law. They are overly strict, technically Harry and Molly were breaking the Law when they did their mental sparing to over come the inadequate mental defense techniques that the Council allows that almost got Harry killed. Remember the Corpsetaker making fun of Harry, because he didn't have a chance against her using the sanctioned mental defense technique that he was legally allowed.
Which might not even be a violation of the law, it could be that Harry and Morgan are just too strict. We know the rules can change somewhat when you want or do not want to behead someone.
Oh I doubt they changed that Law much if at all, that is why Morgan told Harry with his dying breath that he hadn't turned in Molly. Both Molly and Harry would have been toast, and at the time when she tried to go into their heads they didn't act like the Law had been relaxed, and actually neither did Mouse.
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I doubt the Council knew about Molly checking Harry, but yeah, unauthorized, it is against the Law. Now perhaps you can make a plea, she had good reason and a Holy Knight asked her, but it still was breaking the Law. They are overly strict, technically Harry and Molly were breaking the Law when they did their mental sparing to over come the inadequate mental defense techniques that the Council allows that almost got Harry killed.
The sparring did not break the law because they invited each other to do so, it was technically not an invasion. That is important. I don’t think Harry would have done it if it was a violation of the laws anyway. He might do such things under pressure when he sees no way out but deliberately after thinking about it several times? Unlikely.
Remember the Corpsetaker making fun of Harry, because he didn't have a chance against her using the sanctioned mental defense technique that he was legally allowed. Oh I doubt they changed that Law much if at all, that is why Morgan told Harry with his dying breath that he hadn't turned in Molly. Both Molly and Harry would have been toast, and at the time when she tried to go into their heads they didn't act like the Law had been relaxed, and actually neither did Mouse.
The law does not change but the interpretation changes over time and over persons and the interpretation can be politically motivated. Lucio seems to be more relaxed about some grey areas and Morgan is very strict. But Lucio has the laws ingrained in her very person as well, that is why even enthralled she used a knife to kill.
Also how Morgan reacted on the dinosaur was different from how the others reacted.
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The sparring did not break the law because they invited each other to do so, it was technically not an invasion. That is important. I don’t think Harry would have done it if it was a violation of the laws anyway. He might do such things under pressure when he sees no way out but deliberately after thinking about it several times? Unlikely.
I don't disagree, but if that is completely kosher with the Council, then why are the mental defensive techniques taught to and allowed by the Council so pathetic?
This is what Harry says about it in Dead Beat page 166 paperback
Gulp. Mental magic is a dark, dark, dark grey area of the art. Every wizard who makes it to the White Council has received training in how to defend against mental assaults, but it is perfunctory at best. After all the Council made it a special point to wipe out wizards who violated the sanctuary of another's mind. It's one of the Laws of Magic, and if the Wardens caught someone doing it, they killed them, end of story. There was no such thing as an expert at that kind of magic on the White Council, and as a result the defense training was devised by relative amateurs..
Presumably if you are a new member of the Council you receive defensive training, but it is almost useless because 1] they have no experts in mind magic, 2] they are so afraid of it and of breaking the law, they barely teach it.. So given that explanation, even though they gave each other full permission to spar, Harry and Molly were walking a dangerous tightrope between legal and not legal. Given the charges against Molly to begin with, this could have been an excuse to lop off both Harry and Molly's heads.
The law does not change but the interpretation changes over time and over persons and the interpretation can be politically motivated. Lucio seems to be more relaxed about some grey areas and Morgan is very strict. But Lucio has the laws ingrained in her very person as well, that is why even enthralled she used a knife to kill.
The interpretation hadn't changed, Morgan was grateful to Harry for trying to save him and prove his innocence. He was also grateful to him for exposing Peabody and thus saving Luccio as well. He also in the end found out what it was like to be a hounded man by an over zealous enforcer, so he didn't turn in Molly. What I believe is, if it had been the old Morgan of a few books before Proven Guilty, both Harry and Molly would have lost their heads on the spot. As far as Luccio goes, she was so damaged and for intents and purposes enthralled by Peabody, if she made any charges I think they'd have been mostly ignored.
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The interpretation can be pretty flexible as we have seen several times and some things that are not really violations of the law can be enough to have your head cut off if the council wants to. As soon as you get in the grey area it can become politics pretty fast and they don’t have to be consistent or even rational about it if it suits them.
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Multiple POV tends to break the story. I want to skip chapters to continue with the POV I was reading.
I do… until I keep reading and get intersted in the new chapter.
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You make it sound like Harry coldly and calculatingly put her in that position. It didn't go down that way, plain and simple. Harry was at the end of his rope, mentally, physically, emotionally, he was choosing death/suicide rather than become a monster. However he couldn't do it alone. Yes, it put Molly in a tough position, but to think she didn't understand and made her own choice, you are mistaken.. That is why she doesn't hold a grudge towards Harry. Yes, he put her in a tough position so do a lot of desperate people who ask of us stuff that maybe they shouldn't. However agreeing to it or not agreeing is her choice.. Yes, that was hard on her, but consider the alternative, if little Maggie, Harry, and Eb all died at once or Harry's worst fears about being Winter Knight came true and he ended up like Slate.. What would that do to her head if she had chosen to say, no..
Harry literally said he’d let the world burn to save Maggie. Uriel pointed out how he failed Molly with that blinkered view. Uriel was right. Molly followed Harry’s lead. She trusted him. Asking Molly to assist his suicide damaged Molly severely whether she holds a grude or not. Harry owns that terrible mistake.
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It isn't about Molly. It's about Harry. It doesn't matter why he did it. No outcome is ever about the events of that moment. He made the choice of how he was going to live and what happened was a direct result of that choice. Every step Harry takes has consequences and he moves like a bull in a china shop.
Frankly it's starting to get old, at least for me. Jim needs to raise his game and get on with it. It looked like Skin Game could have been that book But the followup brought out every bad habit he has.
Yeah. I have to agree. Skin Game is a damn good book that seemed to stretch Harry and force the character to grow. Peace Talks/Battle Ground felt like a return to Harry of the first three to five books. It was really odd.
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Harry literally said he’d let the world burn to save Maggie. Uriel pointed out how he failed Molly with that blinkered view. Uriel was right. Molly followed Harry’s lead. She trusted him. Asking Molly to assist his suicide damaged Molly severely whether she holds a grude or not. Harry owns that terrible mistake.
It was still her decision to do it, her choice.. Harry cannot be held responsible because his brain wasn't working right at the time. What proves that point, is he didn't think beyond his death, what about his little girl? He knows how terrible it is to be left as an orphan, yet consign his daughter to that fate? No, is the answer, he wouldn't.. I also think that added to the guilt trip of his own when it comes to Maggie, it wasn't just killing her mother, who was no longer human by the way, but his willingness to leave her an orphan
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It was still her decision to do it, her choice..
Which does not reduce Harry’s responsibility at all. For Molly’s conversations with Uriel see “The Carpenter Files”
Harry cannot be held responsible because his brain wasn't working right at the time.
Uriel disagreed. He helped Harry because the fallen crossed a line but he was pretty clear about what was wrong about Harry’s interactions with Molly and who was responsible.
And he did his best to explain it to Harry. Let Molly burn.
What proves that point, is he didn't think beyond his death, what about his little girl? He knows how terrible it is to be left as an orphan, yet consign his daughter to that fate? No, is the answer, he wouldn't.. I also think that added to the guilt trip of his own when it comes to Maggie, it wasn't just killing her mother, who was no longer human by the way, but his willingness to leave her an orphan
As usual Harry felt guilty for the wrong reasons. Susan sacrificed herself for Maggie and he should honor her for it. And Susan was still human enough to sacrifice herself.
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It was still her decision to do it, her choice.. Harry cannot be held responsible because his brain wasn't working right at the time. What proves that point, is he didn't think beyond his death, what about his little girl? He knows how terrible it is to be left as an orphan, yet consign his daughter to that fate? No, is the answer, he wouldn't.. I also think that added to the guilt trip of his own when it comes to Maggie, it wasn't just killing her mother, who was no longer human by the way, but his willingness to leave her an orphan
This reminds me of Harry’s first meeting with Thomas in Cold Days I’ve always felt Thomas’ criticism and anger at Harry was fully justified. That Harry’s guilt and frustration with himself equally justified. Yes, Harry was played with and pushed by a fallen, but, he was driving down that road before he got that last little nudge.
Harry’s guilt at excluding and by extension judging Thomas was perfectly appropriate. As is his guilt over failing Molly.
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Here's the thing. Harry can't control anyone but himself. Whatever he does is on him. It isn't on Molly or anyone else. Molly may well have made bad decisions of her own. But this is about what Harry did. If your personal code says something is wrong and you do it anyway, then it's wrong.
Harry tells Susan this at the beginning of Changes.“Susan. Whatever happens from here . . . we’re done.” I looked up at her. “You know that. You knew it when you chose not to tell me.”
If you tell her it's over, then it's over. And you have given up the right to make decisions of any type where that individual is concerned. And Harry tricked Susan into changing. And he knew he was doing it.If Molly abused her magic or came anywhere near violating any of the Laws of Magic, she’d be executed at once—and I’d join her.
He knew the price she might have to pay and he asked anyway. It isn't all that hard. And he left her to face the music alone.
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And Harry tricked Susan into changing. And he knew he was doing it.
You are the first person I’ve seen mention that fact. Why do we never talk about Harry lying to Susan?
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You are the first person I’ve seen mention that fact. Why do we never talk about Harry lying to Susan?
We did talk about it in previous threads.
Because it did not get Harry’s attention later. It was not the thing Harry was guilty about probably because it was overshadowed by the killing itself.
I don’t know if Susan believed that lie but I do not think she cared. She was as single minded as Harry at that point. It achieved what she wanted most and she got the complete red court as a bonus.
The whole action was completely within the spirit of their agreement.
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This is about Harry's hero journey. How does he evolve as a character if these defects don't exist? It isn't that Harry must be completely moral, but he must recognize when he crosses lines that he's drawn, and mistakes he's made.
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Trick Susan? What do you think she would have done once her daughter's throat was cut? The one who really screwed Susan was Martin, not Harry. Martin was the one playing both sides and got little Maggie kidnapped in the first place. Oh yeah, desperate, Harry made sure she knew, hoping that she'd turn, but what he did, was make sure her turning saved their daughter as well as himself and his grandfather. Yeah, he feels guilty about it, but that doesn't make him wrong.
This is also about choices both made long before the above moment...
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Trick Susan? What do you think she would have done once her daughter's throat was cut? The one who really screwed Susan was Martin, not Harry. Martin was the one playing both sides and got little Maggie kidnapped in the first place. Oh yeah, desperate, Harry made sure she knew, hoping that she'd turn, but what he did, was make sure her turning saved their daughter as well as himself and his grandfather. Yeah, he feels guilty about it, but that doesn't make him wrong.
This is also about choices both made long before the above moment...
Well he lied. If you are an all lies are equally and terrible wrong type of person then the discussion is over.
If you go for a utilitarian morality then I do not think Harry did anything wrong at that moment. Destroying the red court brought the greatest good for the most people.
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To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin. Jim lays to out clearly.
I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.
I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?
Her lips peeled away from her teeth.
His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.
So who is the hero of the story?
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To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin. Jim lays to out clearly.
Just as ruthlessly? Really? Martin had a plan, but would it have worked? Just what was his plan? He was willing to kill off all of his followers, he was willing to kill off an innocent little girl and her family and did murder her adopted family.. You compare that with what Harry did?
I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.
I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?
Her lips peeled away from her teeth.
Yes, he may look at it that way, but at the same time it was the only way to save their daughter. You think Susan shouldn't have known the truth that it was Martin who set up her child to be coldly sacrificed to kill her father and grandfather. And if Harry wasn't so ruthless as you put it, what would have happened do you suppose? I can tell you how it stood in that moment and if Harry hadn't told Susan the truth or helped her to see the truth.. Five minutes later, dead Maggie, dead, Harry, dead Eb, Susan turning once she sees her child murdered, and failing and still dead..
His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.
Yeah, he said that but do you really think it made any difference to Susan whether or not a knife could hurt her once she went over the edge, began to turn and rip Martin's throat out.. Or say, Harry didn't say the knife couldn't have hurt her, do you think it would have changed anything once Susan saw her baby's throat being cut and she realized who staged it?
Well he lied. If you are an all lies are equally and terrible wrong type of person then the discussion is over.
Yeah, but that kind of belief is a bit hypercritical or falls into the "he who is without sin cast the first stone," category. No one is that pure and truthful 100% of the time..
If you go for a utilitarian morality then I do not think Harry did anything wrong at that moment. Destroying the red court brought the greatest good for the most people.
It did, and Harry made some very difficult choices, his main aim was to save his daughter. And even though one can argue with plenty of certainty that his decisions were right given the outcome. Harry still feels guilty because a lot of people still died.
So who is the hero of the story?
I don't think there is one hero of this story.
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How is Martin's behavior functionally different than Harry's? The only difference that I can see is the desired outcome. Martin meant to end the Reds. Harry meant to save his daughter. Killing the Reds was a happy accident. Only Martin made it possible for any of them to survive.
You may not like that but you would need to take it up with the author. That was the story he wrote. That makes Martin the Hero. The whole mission was a suicide run until that point. Going in, Harry neither knew the Grey Council would step in, or had any idea that Martin would give him the final weapon he would need.
I was very excited when I read Changes the first time, but this type of thing is what is getting old. Changes is a demonstration of dumb luck. The only one with a clear idea of what he wanted to accomplish was Martin. Harry only understands it as Martin dies. This ain't no way to run a railroad.
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How is Martin's behavior functionally different than Harry's? The only difference that I can see is the desired outcome. Martin meant to end the Reds. Harry meant to save his daughter. Killing the Reds was a happy accident. Only Martin made it possible for any of them to survive.
What Martin did was planned over several years, and he was using everyone. He was also fine with the slaughter of Maggie's adoptive family. It was Martin's actions telling the Red King where and who little Maggie was that set all of this off. That sent Susan off to tell Harry, and it all flows from there. If Martin hadn't set any about little Maggie, the Red King wouldn't have attempted his spell to kill Eb etc.. Harry would never had known about Maggie, and things would have gone on as before, with the exception that the Red Court most likely have continued. And no the end of the Red Court was no accident, it was Harry's skill and hard choices that reversed the whole thing and wiped out the Red Court.
You may not like that but you would need to take it up with the author. That was the story he wrote. That makes Martin the Hero. The whole mission was a suicide run until that point. Going in, Harry neither knew the Grey Council would step in, or had any idea that Martin would give him the final weapon he would need.
I don't see Martin as the hero at all, not even remotely, nor do I see in any way that it was written that way. The end doesn't always justify the means.
I was very excited when I read Changes the first time, but this type of thing is what is getting old. Changes is a demonstration of dumb luck. The only one with a clear idea of what he wanted to accomplish was Martin. Harry only understands it as Martin dies. This ain't no way to run a railroad.
Not exactly, Martin was always head of the Resistance, they had goals. What Harry and everyone else didn't know was he saw everyone as his pawns to achieve his goal. Yeah, well a lot of things work out in the end due to dumb luck. Martin was an excellent double agent, no one was supposed to know who's side he was on. That doesn't make him a hero, at the end he was more about gloating as to how he had everyone fooled than ending the Red Court.
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To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin. Jim lays to out clearly.So who is the hero of the story?
Susan :)
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Susan :)
She certainly gave more than anyone else.
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What was Harry's plan for Chicken Pizza? What series of steps would have ended with Maggie and Harry walking off into the sunset talking about Big Bird? Could you aim me at it?
I'm pretty sure that Jim didn't want you to see Martin as the Hero. He was suppose to be the tragic figure. However it was his plan and not Harry's that killed the Red King. Harry was simply the dagger.Everything he had done, I realized, he had done for one reason: to be sure that I was standing here when it happened. To give me a chance to change everything.
There aren't very many ways to parse that, are there?Susan :)
;)
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What was Harry's plan for Chicken Pizza? What series of steps would have ended with Maggie and Harry walking off into the sunset talking about Big Bird? Could you aim me at it?
I don't claim that he had one, his only desire was to save his child, himself, and his grandfather from death. In contrast, Martin had been setting things up coldly for years playing both sides. All Harry had were a small group of friends willing to put it on the line to help him, a strong talent, the knowledge how to reverse the Red King's spell back at him, and in desperation the will to make the final very hard choices.
I'm pretty sure that Jim didn't want you to see Martin as the Hero. He was suppose to be the tragic figure. However it was his plan and not Harry's that killed the Red King. Harry was simply the dagger.
I don't see Martin as a tragic figure either, he had Susan's total trust, then betrayed her when he told the Red King where little Maggie was.
Everything he had done, I realized, he had done for one reason: to be sure that I was standing here when it happened. To give me a chance to change everything.
No, it was at best a gamble.
Susan
Yes, in the end she was a hero, but. . .