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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: seanham on July 07, 2021, 02:48:45 AM
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I was recently thinking about the different vampire courts, and I realized that the White Court are by far the most underpowered. The B Court can rapidly "reproduce," and they are known to be the most dangerous but have the most weaknesses. R Court vampires can "reproduce" at similar rates as B Court but are less powerful because they do not have the same inherent potency as B Court and have a need to feed. Finally, the W Court reproduces at the lowest rates; their powers are directly tied with how powerful their Hunger inherently is and how full the Hungry is. The main advantage of the W Court is that they can most easily pass for humans. My question is, why is the W Court so much weaker than the other courts. One could say that they are the strongest because they are not directly powerful in the physical sense but instead use puppets and political power to get what they want but does that makeup for their inherent weakness? Could this be another reason for the Harry Lara marriage? Would a wizard W Court baby be the start of something new and powerful for the W Court and help them gain more power and respect?
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The Red Court is extinct.. The Black Court is just nasty.. I wouldn't underestimate the White Court, their power is in their connections, Lara does have powerful allies, and her rep wasn't hurt by her actions during the recent Battle of Chicago.
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The Red Court is extinct.. The Black Court is just nasty.. I wouldn't underestimate the White Court, their power is in their connections, Lara does have powerful allies, and her rep wasn't hurt by her actions during the recent Battle of Chicago.
Yes, however, this is only taking into account recent events. Before, when the White King actually in charge, he didn't have many of the connections Lara has (or none that I know of). Just look at the old muscle Harry called them Barbies/Ken Dolls. They were immediately upgraded to much more threatening and intelligent individuals after Lara took over. Lara has made the W Court the powerful force it is today, not W Court powers (yes, powers may have helped, but as the book says, W Court sex slaves made bad tools).
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Yes, however, this is only taking into account recent events. Before, when the White King actually in charge, he didn't have many of the connections Lara has (or none that I know of). Just look at the old muscle Harry called them Barbies/Ken Dolls. They were immediately upgraded to much more threatening and intelligent individuals after Lara took over. Lara has made the W Court the powerful force it is today, not W Court powers (yes, powers may have helped, but as the book says, W Court sex slaves made bad tools).
That was during Harry's lifetime, though. Raith had stopped feeding upon his birth, and was preserving the tank. We can assume there weren't huge changes in his behavior so as to go unnoticed, but it seems likely he couldn't do all the things he could have previously done.
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The White Court has the ability to plant what are essentially post-hypnotic suggestions and immediately seize control of human and sufficiently quasi-human beings- Lara captivated a Einherjar, for instance.
Red Court can over time create junkies addicted to their saliva, Black Court can create living weapon Renfields; but neither of these processes is fast.
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I actually rank the White Court as the most powerful. By far. Their mix of power and lack of weaknesses is essentially a perfect fit for the modern world.
While they are not consistently as powerful physically as the Blacks or Reds, they also are not as vulnerable as the Blacks or Reds. I think it's a problem when you can't go out during the day or are vulnerable to children armed with Super Soakers backed up by a Priest.
And, the Whites can throw down with the Blacks or Reds, just in short bursts. Meanwhile, objects of faith or sunlight or holy water or garlic have no impact on them. A White with a full charge can absolutely tank a tremendous amount of damage, provided it isn't instantly lethal.
All of the vampires can control humans to a certain degree. Blacks can create Renfields. These are berserkers, but not good at anything else. The Reds were also able to control some human institutions -- of broken and weak governments. We aren't entirely sure what means that they employed, but my impression is that it was cartel tactics of bribes, violence and intimidation. Lara wields influence over the U.S. Govt., as she demonstrated by getting US Navy evac for Harry's wounded at Chicken Pizza.
The proof, in the end, the Blacks are all but destroyed (by the Whites, btw) and the Reds are destroyed (by the soon-to-be White Consort).
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Yeah it's the difference between Molly and Harry.
Sure, Harry is better at making things asplode, but he's also simpler to fight. Just need to get in and fight.
Fighting a prepared Molly on the other hand is all smoke and mirrors. Sure she'll go down easier once you find her, but you've got to do it first.
High-tier illusions and mental manipulation are scary stuff.
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The Whites are not as physically powerful as the the Blacks are and the Reds were but they can survive long enough to use their weaknesses against them. Even if they have trouble getting holy water or don't have the belief in holy items, an aerosol garlic spray would ruin a Black's day.
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The Whites are not as physically powerful as the the Blacks are and the Reds were but they can survive long enough to use their weaknesses against them. Even if they have trouble getting holy water or don't have the belief in holy items, an aerosol garlic spray would ruin a Black's day.
I don't know, that flying drop kick that Lara delivered to the back of Ethinu's head to pop the eye from her head was pretty wicked and powerful. I wouldn't underestimate them.
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I don't know, that flying drop kick that Lara delivered to the back of Ethinu's head to pop the eye from her head was pretty wicked and powerful. I wouldn't underestimate them.
She's the Queen, arguably the most powerful and well-fed Wamp there is. Others aren't going to have her power.
The Wamps are formidable politically and against humans, but against almost anything else, they're on even terms or below. It took publishing a book and arming the masses with knowledge to exterminate most of the Blamps. If someone paid Shagnasty enough, he'd wipe out the Wamps on his own in a month.
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She's the Queen, arguably the most powerful and well-fed Wamp there is. Others aren't going to have her power.
The Wamps are formidable politically and against humans, but against almost anything else, they're on even terms or below. It took publishing a book and arming the masses with knowledge to exterminate most of the Blamps. If someone paid Shagnasty enough, he'd wipe out the Wamps on his own in a month.
As I recall she had several ladies with her, and I bet one doesn't onto Lara's kick ass team unless you can really kick ass.
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She's the Queen, arguably the most powerful and well-fed Wamp there is. Others aren't going to have her power.
The Wamps are formidable politically and against humans, but against almost anything else, they're on even terms or below. It took publishing a book and arming the masses with knowledge to exterminate most of the Blamps. If someone paid Shagnasty enough, he'd wipe out the Wamps on his own in a month.
We don't know the relative power of the various House heads. Whites can feed most easily, though- don't underestimate their throwing down in a street and then sprinting through a dance club before coming back for round 2. And their supernatural healing isn't to be underestimated.
And we don't know the Whites couldn't handle the Blacks- the Whites used humanity as a cat's paw. Preference doesn't mean incapability.
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As I recall she had several ladies with her, and I bet one doesn't onto Lara's kick ass team unless you can really kick ass.
Sure, I bet there's a dozen members of the family that are well fed and well trained. But those same high-level Wamps were broken like toys by Shaggy in TC. In their place of power. Across their threshold, and whatever wards they had in place.
Likewise, Eb could have taken Lara out at the end. The Wamps are formidable up close with humans that they can whammy or enemies they can beat to a pulp. But their top tier against top tier wizards isn't a fair fight, much less anyone else with power.
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We don't know the relative power of the various House heads. Whites can feed most easily, though- don't underestimate their throwing down in a street and then sprinting through a dance club before coming back for round 2. And their supernatural healing isn't to be underestimated.
And we don't know the Whites couldn't handle the Blacks- the Whites used humanity as a cat's paw. Preference doesn't mean incapability.
Between Peace Talks and Battle Ground, I was left with the impression that Harry was close to raw strength with Lara, and yet he was like a child in Mavra's grip. I'm sure Lara is stronger going all out, but it still seemed like WK and WCV were on one tier, and BCV was on another.
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I'm thinking when Lara was reduced to a barely animate skeleton and devoured Madelaine. That's a hellacious amount of damage to take and be visibly healing from.
A strong, fully-fed White seems to have Wolverine-like healing- at first. When sufficiently injured, they go feral, and also feed indiscriminately. Don't underestimate that.
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Between Peace Talks and Battle Ground, I was left with the impression that Harry was close to raw strength with Lara, and yet he was like a child in Mavra's grip. I'm sure Lara is stronger going all out, but it still seemed like WK and WCV were on one tier, and BCV was on another.
Was he? Or is it he just didn't take into account heat and the damage it can do? Also Mavra and company seemed to freak when anvils were raining from the sky.. If they were all that strong, they would have had an answer for that.
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I'm thinking when Lara was reduced to a barely animate skeleton and devoured Madelaine. That's a hellacious amount of damage to take and be visibly healing from.
A strong, fully-fed White seems to have Wolverine-like healing- at first. When sufficiently injured, they go feral, and also feed indiscriminately. Don't underestimate that.
I think they're very formidable against humans and average wizards. But against a Blamp, that they presumably can't whammy or feed from? That exceed their raw strength, can also take massive damage, and can feed from them? Not as formidable.
Ramps seem like wimps, so I'm not going to argue against a Wamp taking one on. But unless the Wamp is specifically geared up to take on one, I don't see your average Wamp taking out your average Blamp.
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Wamps don't have Blamp weaknesses. Holy water, garlic- religious symbols are probably out, but that's it. Conflict isn't about arm wrestling matches.
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Wamps don't have Blamp weaknesses. Holy water, garlic- religious symbols are probably out, but that's it. Conflict isn't about arm wrestling matches.
Conflict is about what people bring to the fight.
If it's a battle where they're expecting Blamps, then Wamps can bring supplies. Garlic smoke bombs and holy water pistols might come in handy.
Likewise, Blamps can wear a wetsuit and avoid contact with most of that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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The WCV don't just mimic human. They possess the free will of a naturalized resident of reality. Something neither the blacks or reds actually did.
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Power within the Dresden Files is just like real life in that it isn't one thing. One person can be powerful because of money, another because of fame, another because of fighting ability, and another because of firepower. The list goes on.
The Black Court is the strongest of the Houses in pure brute force, and magical capabilities. These qualities made them formidable to be sure, and feared, and hated by many. As strong as they are, they have major flaws.
1. They are deathly vulnerable to things that aren't difficult to obtain.
2. It is virtually impossible for them to blend in with humanity.
3. They are devoid of kindness, honesty, or trustworthiness. They have no real friends or allies.
4. Although they are capable of intelligence, and cunning, it isn't a defining quality of the species.
The White Court is not on their level with regards to brute force, and magical power, but they are very dangerous. As I mentioned earlier, there is more than one route to power. The White Court uses intelligence, guile, misdirection, manipulation, political connections, and wealth.
The White Court could never have faced the Black Court in a head to head fight, but they didn't need to. They took sensitive information about the Black Court's exploits and made it very public. Then all they had to do was sit back and watch as all the people who hated, and feared the Black Court hunted them down.
The White Court brought them down without ever putting themselves into harms way.
A good comparison would be Winter Knight Harry Dresden vs vanilla mortal John Marcone. Sure Harry could absolutely destroy Marcone, but Marcone wouldn't face him directly. He'd have someone pick Harry off from 500 yards with a 50 cal.
So the White Court might be underpowered in some ways vs the Black Court, but who's on the run, hiding, and facing extinction?
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Exactly..
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Power within the Dresden Files is just like real life in that it isn't one thing. One person can be powerful because of money, another because of fame, another because of fighting ability, and another because of firepower. The list goes on.
The Black Court is the strongest of the Houses in pure brute force, and magical capabilities. These qualities made them formidable to be sure, and feared, and hated by many. As strong as they are, they have major flaws.
1. They are deathly vulnerable to things that aren't difficult to obtain.
2. It is virtually impossible for them to blend in with humanity.
3. They are devoid of kindness, honesty, or trustworthiness. They have no real friends or allies.
4. Although they are capable of intelligence, and cunning, it isn't a defining quality of the species.
The White Court is not on their level with regards to brute force, and magical power, but they are very dangerous. As I mentioned earlier, there is more than one route to power. The White Court uses intelligence, guile, misdirection, manipulation, political connections, and wealth.
The White Court could never have faced the Black Court in a head to head fight, but they didn't need to. They took sensitive information about the Black Court's exploits and made it very public. Then all they had to do was sit back and watch as all the people who hated, and feared the Black Court hunted them down.
The White Court brought them down without ever putting themselves into harms way.
A good comparison would be Winter Knight Harry Dresden vs vanilla mortal John Marcone. Sure Harry could absolutely destroy Marcone, but Marcone wouldn't face him directly. He'd have someone pick Harry off from 500 yards with a 50 cal.
So the White Court might be underpowered in some ways vs the Black Court, but who's on the run, hiding, and facing extinction?
We're basically agreed. What the Wamps lack in raw power and ability, they make up for with other resources. I have no problem acknowledging that Titans are more powerful than wizards, and also acknowledging that Harry beat a Titan when armed with the right resources.
But the Blamps' greatest weakness isn't garlic or holy water or sunlight, or even that they don't play well with each other or others. It's their age, and the time it takes for one to gain enough power and influence to enact change.
We've seen the same thing with wizards and Ramps. The elders are slow to adapt to new ideas.
If a modern human could be turned into a Blamp and given enough power and authority to enact change, then they'd be terrifying.
I expect we might see just that in the near future with Yoshimo, Wild Bill, and/or Chandler. If modern wizards with power and experience fighting a modern war with modern weapons are given authority in Drakul's ranks, then we could see a formidable Blamp army in the near future.
Blamps with enchanted cloaks that holy water rolls off of like blood off Warden cloaks. Wind charms created by Dark Yoshimo that keep a breeze blowing around Blamps to prevent garlic from hitting them full on. Renfields trained by camp kaboom veteran Wild Bill, covered in body armor and modern weapons and working like a military unit to protect high value assets, or crossing thresholds to drag victims out of their homes.
That's assuming the Blamps haven't been stockpiling items touched by True Love from their victims to use in an assault against the Wamps when they're ready. Imagine them collecting souvenirs and testing them on a captured Wamp for a hundred years.
Given the right mindset, the Blamps can be just as resourceful as the Wamps.
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Given the right mindset, the Blamps can be just as resourceful as the Wamps.
I don't disagree, however is it a given that Yoshimo, Wild Bill will automatically fight on the side of the Blamps? Yes, they are turned and will have to kill to survive, but after a lifetime of being a Warden it is still possible that part of who they were will survive. It that is true, Mavra's plan may blow up in her face. I think we will see Chandler again, I think Harry will find him when he does his thing in the alternate timeline, and he will be an ally.
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Pretty sure if that was an option they'd have discovered it and stopped converting enemies by now.
There's pretty much got to be a degree of mental contamination from the conversion to egomaniac super-zombie to make them always chaotic evil.
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Pretty sure if that was an option they'd have discovered it and stopped cinverting enemies by now.
There's pretty much got to be a degree of mental contamination from the conversion to egomaniac super-zombie to make them always chaotic evil.
Or just straight up replacement by a phage of some sort shoved into the body instead of the person.
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I was recently thinking about the different vampire courts, and I realized that the White Court are by far the most underpowered. The B Court can rapidly "reproduce," and they are known to be the most dangerous but have the most weaknesses. R Court vampires can "reproduce" at similar rates as B Court but are less powerful because they do not have the same inherent potency as B Court and have a need to feed. Finally, the W Court reproduces at the lowest rates; their powers are directly tied with how powerful their Hunger inherently is and how full the Hungry is. The main advantage of the W Court is that they can most easily pass for humans. My question is, why is the W Court so much weaker than the other courts. One could say that they are the strongest because they are not directly powerful in the physical sense but instead use puppets and political power to get what they want but does that makeup for their inherent weakness? Could this be another reason for the Harry Lara marriage? Would a wizard W Court baby be the start of something new and powerful for the W Court and help them gain more power and respect?
They are the most dangerous. They are more or less immortal. They aren't vulnerable to holy water or the traditional things the Council publicized. And they can enslave their victims without creating more Vamps.