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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on June 19, 2021, 11:15:46 AM
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Upon reading the discussion about Lord Raith's immunity to magic, a thought came to me.
According to Lash, Margaret got the courage to leave Raith after she met Malcolm, with whom
she created a star born, Harry. Okay, she also managed to figure out a way to neutralize him through her death curse, which I think was well planned in advance. So here goes my thoughts on this and why it connects to Mab wanting Harry to marry Lara and why maybe it pisses Molly off so much..
Living with Raith as suggested, Margaret figured out a way to do him in even if she couldn't kill him. Many of us think that he has been protected all along by an Outsider, or perhaps even Nemesis. Heck the Hunger Demon maybe closely related, which could explain the White Court's connections as we saw back in White Night, though I do need to reread and this a spare of a moment idea.. Anyway, she figured that out and what Nemesis's plans were, that is when she began to understand the importance of a star child to stop them/it.. That is why she wanted to give birth to one, knowing the history of star borns and that so far they do more harm than good, she was very selective about finding the right man to father this child. She met Malcolm. I wonder if in the process of creating a star born, she also used the same formula to neutralize Lord Raith?
Now fast forward to now, Mab understands the connection between the White Court and Nemesis/Outsiders as well, she cannot overtly go against the White Court, but she figures her
Knight like his mother will figure it out in the intimacy of marriage and take out Lara and the rest pf the Court for her.. This presets a huge risk for Harry, and while Mab is willing to sacrifice her Knight, keeping him in the dark, Molly isn't.
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You could be right but Lash never mentioned Malcolm. Margaret found the strength to do something important. To create a starborn.
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You could be right but Lash never mentioned Malcolm. Margaret found the strength to do something important. To create a starborn.
Yeah, I got to fix that, understand it was about five this morning when I wrote that, and didn't have time to reread the passage. The passage reads;
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth--becauseof whyyou were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
She then says the circumstances and conditions potentially gives him the ability to wield power over Outsiders. Which is interesting, it implies that not all star borns are conceived for the same reason, and the specific reason Margaret conceived Harry was to kick Outsider butt. No, Lash doesn't mention Malcolm, however from what Eb said, even Chauncy, and what Malcolm told him, her meeting Malcolm and falling in love with him, seeing what kind of man he was, helped her to see it was possible. We also have the soul gaze talk from Margaret and the dream talk from Malcolm that the two of them agreed knowing the burden it would put on the child conceived as Harry was to conceive him. So yes, Margaret figured it out and knew what had to be done, but at the same time she needed a partner to father such a child. When she met Malcolm, it took her over the goal line so to speak.
Which begs another question, both Justin and the Senior Council seem to have assumptions as to why Harry was conceived as a star born.. But do they know the real reason Margaret conceived him? I think not.
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Margaret had seen the outer gates and spoke to the gatekeeper there. She had intensive contact with Lea. She knew about the outsider threat and wanted to do something about it. Maybe it was also part of her dealings with Lea. Maybe she wanted to correct a mistake in the past.
I think she wanted to help the world. She is described as an idealist as well.
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Margaret had seen the outer gates and spoke to the gatekeeper there. She had intensive contact with Lea. She knew about the outsider threat and wanted to do something about it. Maybe it was also part of her dealings with Lea. Maybe she wanted to correct a mistake in the past.
I think she wanted to help the world. She is described as an idealist as well.
Yes, she was an idealist, but trying to correct a past mistake by hanging out with vampires and having a child by one? Now she may have gotten the secret on how to stymie Raith's abilty to feed from Lea.. That might explain part of the bargain that was struck between her and Lea.
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Yes, she was an idealist, but trying to correct a past mistake by hanging out with vampires and having a child by one? Now she may have gotten the secret on how to stymie Raith's abilty to feed from Lea.. That might explain part of the bargain that was struck between her and Lea.
Hanging out with vampires and seeing all their doings might actually have helped triggering it.
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Interesting thought. If there was a serious security risk posed by the White Court, I do suspect Mab would try and address it (assuming she has the resources).
However, I am not so sure how she would. Mab isn't just a warrior. She is also a master strategist and diplomat. She made the Accords after all. I suspect she would attempt to sandbag the White Court or even turn them to her side before outright destroying them.
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Turning the White Court to her side could be the reason; or at least part of the reason, why Mab agreed to the alliance. Forcing the wedding between Harry and Lara might be Mab's insurance policy. If the White Court's Outsider influence can't be overcome or sidetracked, Mab's knight gets in close enough to learn the secrets his mother learned and if necessary put that knowledge to deadly use.
This is assuming the OP is correct or close to correct. I think Mira might be on to something, though some pieces to this puzzle are still missing.
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Turning the White Court to her side could be the reason; or at least part of the reason, why Mab agreed to the alliance. Forcing the wedding between Harry and Lara might be Mab's insurance policy. If the White Court's Outsider influence can't be overcome or sidetracked, Mab's knight gets in close enough to learn the secrets his mother learned and if necessary put that knowledge to deadly use.
This is assuming the OP is correct or close to correct. I think Mira might be on to something, though some pieces to this puzzle that are still missing.
Now fast forward to now, Mab understands the connection between the White Court and Nemesis/Outsiders as well, she cannot overtly go against the White Court, but she figures her
Knight like his mother will figure it out in the intimacy of marriage and take out Lara and the rest pf the Court for her.. This presets a huge risk for Harry, and while Mab is willing to sacrifice her Knight, keeping him in the dark, Molly isn't.
Why is it Mab can't move overtly against the White Court?
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Why is it Mab can't move overtly against the White Court?
They are members of her accords and clearly behave as allies. If Mab just attacks them everybody else will get scared and her accords will be history.
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They are members of her accords and clearly behave as allies. If Mab just attacks them everybody else will get scared and her accords will be history.
They are scared of her, that's why they signed the Accords. Pretty sure working with Outsiders is a violation of Mab's Accords too. Don't forget she makes and enforces those rules. If anything, if she attacked the White Court she'd have most of the rest on side. They don't like the White Court. It would be a chance to remove an enemy/competitor and they all want to stay on Mab's good side. This is as true in the Dresden Files as in the real world.
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They are scared of her, that's why they signed the Accords. Pretty sure working with Outsiders is a violation of Mab's Accords too. Don't forget she makes and enforces those rules. If anything, if she attacked the White Court she'd have most of the rest on side. They don't like the White Court. It would be a chance to remove an enemy/competitor and they all want to stay on Mab's good side. This is as true in the Dresden Files as in the real world.
That is not how it worked in history. If you punish without cause everyone will feel unsafe from you and that never ends well. You need a pretext people can get behind.
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That is not how it worked in history. If you punish without cause everyone will feel unsafe from you and that never ends well. You need a pretext people can get behind.
So when Mab moved openly against the Red Court...what would you call that? Mab can attack who she likes. It's not that she is free from consequence but for the last millennia she has been setting the balance of power at her level.
As for real history, I think we might well venture into Touchy Topics so I think we should leave it there. As for a pretext the others can get behind or acting without cause...Mab has cause and a good pretext: they are allied with her greatest enemies, the Outsiders. This is a violation of the Accords, which allows her to go after the violaters and can expect support of the other nations. Which of the Accorded Nations that have broken the rules and/or allied with Outsiders has not been dealt with. The Red Court, Black Court, Fomor, Denarians etc have all been smashed with Mab's involvement (with the possible exception of Mab possibly not being involved in the downfall of the Black Court...although it's likely as everyone resented how powerful they were, and they were allied with Outsiders).
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So when Mab moved openly against the Red Court...what would you call that? Mab can attack who she likes. It's not that she is free from consequence but for the last millennia she has been setting the balance of power at her level.
As for real history, I think we might well venture into Touchy Topics so I think we should leave it there. As for a pretext the others can get behind or acting without cause...Mab has cause and a good pretext: they are allied with her greatest enemies, the Outsiders. This is a violation of the Accords, which allows her to go after the violaters and can expect support of the other nations. Which of the Accorded Nations that have broken the rules and/or allied with Outsiders has not been dealt with. The Red Court, Black Court, Fomor, Denarians etc have all been smashed with Mab's involvement (with the possible exception of Mab possibly not being involved in the downfall of the Black Court...although it's likely as everyone resented how powerful they were, and they were allied with Outsiders).
The red court was openly allied with the outsiders, they used outsiders against the white council in open battle. And Mab did not act on her own.
Vadderung, Uriel, the white council, ..
Also the red court was not exactly careful with winter, Mab had enough pretexts.
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The red court was openly allied with the outsiders, they used outsiders against the white council in open battle. And Mab did not act on her own.
Vadderung, Uriel, the white council, ..
Also the red court was not exactly careful with winter, Mab had enough pretexts.
But Mab was very careful to at least "appear" to be neutral, the biggie if I remember right is allowing the White Council to pass though the Nevernever in Winter Territory. Winter didn't overtly fight on the side of the White Council against the Red Court, but allowing the White Council to pass through her lands safely was huge..
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The red court was openly allied with the outsiders, they used outsiders against the white council in open battle. And Mab did not act on her own.
Vadderung, Uriel, the white council, ..
Also the red court was not exactly careful with winter, Mab had enough pretexts.
It was even spelled out in Dead Beat that bringing in the outsiders like they did meant that they had declared war on both Summer and Winter and that by all rights they'd basically committed suicide.
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But Mab was very careful to at least "appear" to be neutral, the biggie if I remember right is allowing the White Council to pass though the Nevernever in Winter Territory. Winter didn't overtly fight on the side of the White Council against the Red Court, but allowing the White Council to pass through her lands safely was huge..
But that was the genius of it. This made the red court follow the white council on winter territory which gave her another pretext.
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But that was the genius of it. This made the red court follow the white council on winter territory which gave her another pretext.
Yup, Mab, ever the master three dimensional chess player..
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It was even spelled out in Dead Beat that bringing in the outsiders like they did meant that they had declared war on both Summer and Winter and that by all rights they'd basically committed suicide.
It goes back further than Dead Beat, it begins in Grave Peril when Lea gets the Atheme. Darth Bathrobe intended to decapitate the Council and take Mab out of the picture. When the Reds begin their incursion the BC knows that Mab is weak and logic says this is when they attacked Arctis Tor. Mab had to protect her Wellspring. And Harry ended up foiling Cowl. In Changes she returned the favor, she sends her Knight and Lea and arranges things with Santa Clause. She did what the Merlin said he was going to do. End it once and for all.
Why Mab is arranging for Lara to Marry Harry may have something to do with the Archive and the Oblivion War, since both Lara and Thomas are involved.
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I would add that Mab's resources; while impressive, are mostly at the Outer Gates. Most of the rest will be assigned to fighting the Fomor. Plus, Mab only puts herself in harm's way to strike at an enemy under the most dire circumstance. This wouldn't be it. That's one explanation. Another is the possibility that any attempt by the Outsiders to get the White Court on their side won't be aimed at the entire White Court, it will be aimed at recruiting their leader. Even if the demons which infests each White Court vampire was a product of something the Outsiders did, it doesn't follow that the White Court become the Outsiders natural ally. It may have been the manipulation of Lord Raith that makes it seem that way.
Lara has access to her father's library and any notes he may nave kept. Getting some guarantee of controlling a surviving principality and becoming immune to magic might be an enticement to switch sides if it looks like the Outsiders might win. Mab getting Harry next to Lara fits in with my earlier stated idea that the forced marriage is Mab's insurance policy. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies, or potential enemies, closer.