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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on May 17, 2021, 03:55:42 PM
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Sorry I am rambling this morning, but these squirrels are finding their way onto the exercise wheel
of my brain..
1] We know that Morgan was aware of Harry from the get go and what he was supposed to be..
So did he keep quiet at Harry's trial when he was sixteen? If so. Why? It cannot all be because he fell into Justin's hands.. In fact all the more reason to push for the chop..
2] At the trial they must have known Harry was the son of Margaret, but were mostly ignorant that Eb was his grand father? Why promote Harry to full wizard while still a minor? Overlook sort of that he broke the First Law, putting him under the Doom in the hands of the Blackstaff.. Oh yeah, Eb had orders, watch him, kill him if need be.. If he was going full warlock? Some thought he already had, or for signs that he couldn't be controlled? Did being Blackstaff mean that Eb was immune from suffering the same fate as Harry if he went bad? There were some as late as Summer Knight who were still calling Harry a warlock, how come they weren't demanding Eb's head as well?
So in effect was Harry's trial a sham to cover up the fact that they lost control of him and the experiment back when Malcolm died and Morgan failed to keep track of him? Also the cover up
continues because they still thought up until Battle Ground that they could still use Harry.. Now, like Kemmler they fear he has become too powerful, so after the Battle of Chicago they set up a kangaroo court to convict him, sort of, they still want to control him... Good luck with that..
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Sorry I am rambling this morning, but these squirrels are finding their way onto the exercise wheel
of my brain..
1] We know that Morgan was aware of Harry from the get go and what he was supposed to be..
So did he keep quiet at Harry's trial when he was sixteen? If so. Why? It cannot all be because he fell into Justin's hands.. In fact all the more reason to push for the chop..
2] At the trial they must have known Harry was the son of Margaret, but were mostly ignorant that Eb was his grand father? Why promote Harry to full wizard while still a minor? Overlook sort of that he broke the First Law, putting him under the Doom in the hands of the Blackstaff.. Oh yeah, Eb had orders, watch him, kill him if need be.. If he was going full warlock? Some thought he already had, or for signs that he couldn't be controlled? Did being Blackstaff mean that Eb was immune from suffering the same fate as Harry if he went bad? There were some as late as Summer Knight who were still calling Harry a warlock, how come they weren't demanding Eb's head as well?
So in effect was Harry's trial a sham to cover up the fact that they lost control of him and the experiment back when Malcolm died and Morgan failed to keep track of him? Also the cover up
continues because they still thought up until Battle Ground that they could still use Harry.. Now, like Kemmler they fear he has become too powerful, so after the Battle of Chicago they set up a kangaroo court to convict him, sort of, they still want to control him... Good luck with that..
I'd always wondered about the thought of a cover up regarding Harry disappearance into the foster system. I think the Council expelled him as he now has plausible deniability to fight anyone he wants. But I agree, any attempt at trying to control Harry will go poorly.
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I'd always wondered about the thought of a cover up regarding Harry disappearance into the foster system. I think the Council expelled him as he now has plausible deniability to fight anyone he wants. But I agree, any attempt at trying to control Harry will go poorly.
Yeah, it just makes no sense to me that when Harry came before the Council as a sixteen year old would be warlock that Eb defended that they didn't know who he really was..
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I mean, they might have been calling for Eb's head. We don't know much of what happens internally in the White Council. Especially as Harry barely is involved most of the series. Yes he is a Warden but he tries to keep his head out.
As for Morgan, I think Morgan was pushing for execution just as much as other senior White Council wizards. They were wary though as they didn't have evidence, and I suspect they were scared Eb might go rogue over it and try and split the Council. But the Senior Council would have known what Harry was, as would have the most senior warden's like Luccio.
You could well be right that the initial trial was to throw off suspicion about their knowledge of Harry and what he is, and also their involvement in his life.
Harry is uncontrollable by nature, perhaps literally, and the Council will learn that one way or another just like everyone else.
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You could well be right that the initial trial was to throw off suspicion about their knowledge of Harry and what he is, and also their involvement in his life.
It's gotta be that they knew exactly what Harry was, Listens to Wind says as much in Peace Talks, so does Eb, and that they have been keeping the truth from Harry. We shall see if Listens does tell all to Harry in a year, as he promised. Morgan also alludes to it in his journal, it wasn't just because he feared infection or that Harry would be a warlock.. Also he says he was doing it because he promised Margaret to watch over Harry? That never made sense to me if she was a wanted criminal and he a Warden.. All of which screams that she did indeed make a deal with the Council to give birth to a star born in return for them leaving her alone. Another thought just hit me, Morgan lost track of Harry in the system because Mab arranged it, fearing that Morgan might try to kill him.. Then it makes sense that while Lea in disguise as a "nice lady" who'd check on Harry from time to time when he was in the orphanage while neither Morgan nor Eb could find him in the system.. But then why is it that Harry ended up with Justin?
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Harry is probably alive because he didn't actually use Black Magic. He broke the Law of killing with magic but did so in self defense. If he had actually been a Black Magic user, he'd probably have gotten the chop. Molly is only alive because Michael escorted several Senior Council members into her trial and because sparing her at the time gave them another hold on Harry as her sponsor.
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Harry is probably alive because he didn't actually use Black Magic. He broke the Law of killing with magic but did so in self defense. If he had actually been a Black Magic user, he'd probably have gotten the chop. Molly is only alive because Michael escorted several Senior Council members into her trial and because sparing her at the time gave them another hold on Harry as her sponsor.
Harry is alive because of politics, he had connections. Without that he would have been dead.
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Harry is probably alive because he didn't actually use Black Magic. He broke the Law of killing with magic but did so in self defense. If he had actually been a Black Magic user, he'd probably have gotten the chop. Molly is only alive because Michael escorted several Senior Council members into her trial and because sparing her at the time gave them another hold on Harry as her sponsor.
I don't think it matters whether or not you use black magic or regular magic, the First Law is, Killing with Magic, no distinction.. Harry maintained it was self defense, there are those on the Council that believed he couldn't have done it, a sixteen year old apprentice if he hadn't used black magic.. The loa saw some stains on him, and Harry admitted that some of it was.
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Yes. That's what the blackstaff does..
They had control of him? Experiment?!? What?
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It's been discussed many, many times over the years but I believe the consensus is that breaking any of the Laws of Magic could be black magic. Jim has alluded to why this is several times over the years. There is an interview at a bookstore where he says there are fundamental rules about magic and once we learn them we will look back on things Harry has done and be like "you maniac!" and start to sound a bit like the Council.
My interpretation of that stems from what Harry says about magic and belief, you not only need to think something will happen, but that it should happen. You force reality to bend and break in a way it wasn't ever meant to. So arguably, even when you kill in self-defence, you still believe that the other person should die. Rightly or wrongly, I suspect using a fundamental force of creation to do that might have consequences. Same for the other Laws.
Harry is alive because of politics, he had connections. Without that he would have been dead.
It's certainly possible it was just politics. I suspect Eb would have rioted. And maybe all his allies too. But I can also see how the trial might have been for show, and that the Council never really intended to kill him as they wish to use him. Drakul hints exactly at that.
Molly is only alive because Michael escorted several Senior Council members into her trial and because sparing her at the time gave them another hold on Harry as her sponsor.
Molly is also alive because fate and chance are not exclusive. What I mean to say is that even then Mab was preparing Molly to be Winter Lady, and considering Mother Winter is likely one of the Fates among other things) I think there were FAR higher level things going on. Heaven clearly was involved. It just so happened Michael shows up to protect the right people who can protect his daughter. Not just luck. That's almost certainly by design. Also Harry and Michael would have probably tried to take out the Council, at least the Senior Council, which again probably would have lead to a civil war. Which might have been the design of the "opposition".
It's gotta be that they knew exactly what Harry was, Listens to Wind says as much in Peace Talks, so does Eb, and that they have been keeping the truth from Harry. We shall see if Listens does tell all to Harry in a year, as he promised. Morgan also alludes to it in his journal, it wasn't just because he feared infection or that Harry would be a warlock.. Also he says he was doing it because he promised Margaret to watch over Harry? That never made sense to me if she was a wanted criminal and he a Warden.. All of which screams that she did indeed make a deal with the Council to give birth to a star born in return for them leaving her alone. Another thought just hit me, Morgan lost track of Harry in the system because Mab arranged it, fearing that Morgan might try to kill him.. Then it makes sense that while Lea in disguise as a "nice lady" who'd check on Harry from time to time when he was in the orphanage while neither Morgan nor Eb could find him in the system.. But then why is it that Harry ended up with Justin?
Oh I am certain that the Senior Council, and the most senior wizards, all knew who and what Harry was. I don't think Cristos does...but that's for other reasons. I am certain either LtW or River Shoulders (or both) will basically reveal to Harry most of what he is and the rest of the star born stuff. Although Jim will surely omit some information just to pull a twist later.
Margaret was around a long time. I suspect she was very like Harry in that she had a certain camaraderie with the Wardens, even though they chased her. If you end up fighting the same monsters you obviously share some beliefs. The way both Morgan and Luccio talk, they knew her personally. So did the Gatekeeper and several others. Including Justin Dumorne. I can't be certain she made a deal, but I am sure she helped them out officially or otherwise.
If you're right about Mab - which is certainly possible, that says all sorts of terrible things about her. Unfortunately, I think it might have been Lea. She had the connection to Margaret and that connects her to Dumorne. Harry saw Lea right after his fight with He Who Walks Behind. Doesn't that seem awfully sus?
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If you're right about Mab - which is certainly possible, that says all sorts of terrible things about her. Unfortunately, I think it might have been Lea. She had the connection to Margaret and that connects her to Dumorne. Harry saw Lea right after his fight with He Who Walks Behind. Doesn't that seem awfully sus?
Yes, and no, because did he not know Lea was his godmother by that time? I also got the impression that he summoned her because he felt he needed help to go against Justin. That duel took place two weeks after the fight with HWWB I believe. However Lea did keep tabs on him while he was in the orphanage, she was the nice lady who came to see him. You could be right about her in that she did seem to have an ambitious agenda until she got infected by the Knife. However having said that it seems contradictory that she'd have steered Justin to Harry and then turn around and give him confidence so Harry would be able to kill Justin. Come to think of it, if Justin was still a Warden when Harry was born, he'd have known what he was, plotted to have Malcolm killed, then when the extent of Harry's talent became obvious, adopt him to use him for his own purpose, an enforcer.
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WoJ There were 40,000 to 50,000 Starborn created 40 years ago. Not many left now.
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Sorry I am rambling this morning, but these squirrels are finding their way onto the exercise wheel
of my brain..
1] We know that Morgan was aware of Harry from the get go and what he was supposed to be..
So did he keep quiet at Harry's trial when he was sixteen? If so. Why? It cannot all be because he fell into Justin's hands.. In fact all the more reason to push for the chop..
2] At the trial they must have known Harry was the son of Margaret, but were mostly ignorant that Eb was his grand father? Why promote Harry to full wizard while still a minor? Overlook sort of that he broke the First Law, putting him under the Doom in the hands of the Blackstaff.. Oh yeah, Eb had orders, watch him, kill him if need be.. If he was going full warlock? Some thought he already had, or for signs that he couldn't be controlled? Did being Blackstaff mean that Eb was immune from suffering the same fate as Harry if he went bad? There were some as late as Summer Knight who were still calling Harry a warlock, how come they weren't demanding Eb's head as well?
So in effect was Harry's trial a sham to cover up the fact that they lost control of him and the experiment back when Malcolm died and Morgan failed to keep track of him? Also the cover up
continues because they still thought up until Battle Ground that they could still use Harry.. Now, like Kemmler they fear he has become too powerful, so after the Battle of Chicago they set up a kangaroo court to convict him, sort of, they still want to control him... Good luck with that..
I just reread Morgan's microfiction. Morgan knew that Ebenezer was Margaret's father. I would assume that whatever Morgan knew, Arthur Langtry also knew. In that very short story, Morgan told Luccio why he hounded Harry, and from the way he worded it we can safely assume that Captain Luccio already knew that Ebenezer was Harry's grandfather. Donald Morgan wasn't revealing a hidden secret; the tone of his words was very matter of fact. Also, from these words, "I cannot be sure that he is not the monster we all fear, in the process of being born." it appears Captain Luccio already knew most of the story, Warden Morgan was just filling in a few details and his personal feelings on the matter.
Going back to a point I made in another post, Martha Liberty said of Harry to Ebenezer, "You know what he was meant to be." Rereading the scene in Summer Knight where the Merlin and his allies are about to throw Harry to the wolves, Senior Council member LaFortier was especially harsh, almost as if he had a personal grudge against Harry. Seeing as they barely knew each other, perhaps a more logical explanation is LaFortier saw an opportunity to get rid of a past mistake.
So the Senior Council; or at least most of its members, discovered or were told about Harry and what he was meant to be, before Harry was even born. I think that after Margaret LeFay's death the Senior Council wasn't certain about what to do with Harry, after all there was no way to know if he would become a wizard or vanilla mortal, but Morgan said that he tracked Malcom and Harry until shortly before Malcolm was murdered. To put it another way, the Council had Morgan keep track of Harry for them.
What if the Senior Council, or at least a majority of it's members, decided it was too dangerous to wait and see if Harry had any magical talent? What if they decided to act in order to make certain they controlled Harry's potential? Warden Morgan was too morally stiff to be a part of such a corrupt enterprise so he was sent on a mission to keep him occupied. The Council has someone who can break the Laws of Magic, when it needs to be done. Only it was all for nothing because Justin got control of Harry. That's the secret the Senior Council is covering up. They ordered Malcolm Dresden's death and at the same time failed to get a hold of Harry. They're not just murderers, they're inept murderers.
OK, I've just laid out a WAG that Ebenezer killed Malcolm Dresden at the behest of the Senior Council, and if you want to poke holes in that idea, that's fine. However, I just thought about something that might be evidence for this WAG. In his final journal entry Warden Morgan says, "Malcolm died while I was on mission elsewhere. I arrived less than ten hours after the child went into the foster care system, and someone made him vanish. Magically, physically, bureaucratically. There was no trace of him, and I searched for years."
But in Peace Talks didn't Ebenezer admit to Harry that he allowed Harry, or made Harry, disappear into the foster care system in order to keep him safe? Almost like Ebenezer was there when Malcolm Dresden was murdered. Eb almost would have had to have been there in order to make Harry disappear so quickly and completely. (Now I'll have to dig up my copy of Peace Talks and reread that conversation. I'll do it tomorrow.)
P.S. The only person who didn't lose track of young Harry was Lea. She guarded Harry from attempts on his life from the Nevernever, so of course she witnessed what happened. From Harry's memories it appears that Lea visited Harry while he was in the orphanage. At some point; probably shortly after Harry's magic manifested, she makes a deal with Justin DuMorne and he becomes Harry's magic teacher. However, that's another story.
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P.S. The only person who didn't lose track of young Harry was Lea. She guarded Harry from attempts on his life from the Nevernever, so of course she witnessed what happened. From Harry's memories it appears that Lea visited Harry while he was in the orphanage. At some point; probably shortly after Harry's magic manifested, she makes a deal with Justin DuMorne and he becomes Harry's magic teacher. However, that's another story.
Yes, and here is another thought I had while reading your post, what if it wasn't Lord Raith that killed Margaret? It was the White Council, in order to cover up their mistake. Margaret was set up, and Lord Raith to be the fall guy.
Okay, my brain does weird things early in the morning with just a couple of swallows of coffee... But here goes, Harry wasn't Margaret's first attempt at giving birth to a star born, it was Thomas on orders from the Senior Council. They chose Lord Raith to be the father for a number of obvious reasons, but it didn't work out. Thomas had no talent to speak of and they realized that they couldn't control Lord Raith. That does explain why Eb, who supposedly hates vampires so much met and had dinner with Margaret and Lord Raith like regular family.. The idea would have been dropped all together, no harm no foul so to speak, Thomas would grow up to be a vampire, and that would be the end of it. But then Margaret met Malcolm, married and got pregnant, the cover up began to fall apart.. She had to die, it wasn't Lord Raith that killed her, it was Eb on orders of the Council. He was supposed kill baby Harry as well. While he could did and could kill his daughter, he couldn't kill a innocent new born, heck at that point he could have been a mere untalented vanilla baby like Thomas was. So Eb told Malcolm to gather up the child and run.. And they remained on the run for the next six years, then Malcolm was murdered, they would have gotten young Harry as well, but as you point out, Lea got involved. That would explain why Eb supposedly was so hands off as far as his little grandson goes. It was the only way to keep little Harry safe, a vanilla father and son might slip through the cracks, though apparently Morgan knew where they were, if Eb made any contact, the truth would come out. Morgan might have prevented the murder, but he was ordered elsewhere at the critical moment.
One more wild ass theory and then I'm done.. It was Lord Raith that betrayed Malcolm and young Harry, because his spies actually ran the motel where the murder took place. He hoped that by telling the Council Malcolm's location, they could undo the spell that Margaret had put on him that prevented his feeding. This would explain Eb's rage and sense of betrayal when it comes to vampires.. Of course Harry doesn't know any of this, or he only knows bits and pieces of half truths. So he feels the sense of resentment, that a child would naturally feel when he finds out supposedly that his grandfather was content to abandon him to be a ward of the state.. That kind of resentment sticks with one for a lifetime, and it came out in their bitter argument in Peace Talks..
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Before I respond I have to make a correction to what I stated above. Rereading what Harry and Ebenezer said to each other in Peace Talks I discovered Ebenezer made his own daughter disappear to hide her from his enemies and presumably only made contact with Margaret when her magic ability became apparent. Harry accused Ebenezer of doing the same thing to him. He said, "You allowed me to disappear into the foster care system." Ebenezer didn't deny this. If Harry was wrong, Ebenezer could have defended himself. He could have said something like, "Harry, you're wrong. Someone else, probably Justin DuMorne, was responsible for that. Whoever it was they were so thorough in doing their job no one could find you. I'll admit I might have decided to hide you if I had the chance, but I never did." So, while not absolutely proven, Ebenezer is still a good bet for the person who hid Harry from the Council. Ebenezer realized that Malcolm Dresden couldn't protect Harry, but the old man would be damned if he'd turn over his grandson to the Council because he feared the Council would use Harry for their own selfish purposes. So he hid Harry and even Warden Morgan couldn't find him, but Justin; probably with Lea's help, did find Harry.
Well that's a bold idea, Ebenezer killing his own daughter. Though I'm not sure I can go along with it. First, Ebenezer seemed shocked when Harry told him that Thomas is his grandson. He seemed shocked that Margaret had sexual relations with Raith, though frankly, that's something that he should have been worried about. Also, how would Eb know that Thomas was Margaret's first attempt at creating a starborn child? It would also mean that Ebenezer was lying when he told Harry that Lord Raith killed Margaret. That's a little more duplicitous than I believe Ebenezer to be.
Here's a different suggestion. Normally the White Council solves its internal problems on its own. But knowing the Blackstaff would never move against his own daughter, I wonder if the Merlin or another Senior Council member would be tempted to use someone from outside the Council to do their dirty work? I'm not saying I buy this idea, I'm just trying it on for size. Right now it's only a maybe
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Well that's a bold idea, Ebenezer killing his own daughter. Though I'm not sure I can go along with it. First, Ebenezer seemed shocked when Harry told him that Thomas is his grandson. He seemed shocked that Margaret had sexual relations with Raith, though frankly, that's something that he should have been worried about. Also, how would Eb know that Thomas was Margaret's first attempt at creating a starborn child? It would also mean that Ebenezer was lying when he told Harry that Lord Raith killed Margaret. That's a little more duplicitous than I believe Ebenezer to be.
If Eb knew they were going to lop off her head anyway, he might have, in an effort to protect Harry.. However while the Council seems to know that Margaret is Harry's mother, no one mentions or seems to know, with the exception of Rashid and perhaps Listens to Wind, that Eb is her father and and Harry's grandfather. Heck, in Blood Rites when he tells Harry a lot of stuff, he leaves out the fact that he is his grandfather. He says the Council knew Harry was Margaret's son, but leaves out the fact that he is his grandfather. Also weird, it the Council knew as you say that Eb was Harry's grandfather, would he still be under orders to kill him?
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that Eb wouldn't figured out that Margaret was having sex with Lord Raith. Ariana figured out that Eb was Margaret's father during that dinner with her, Eb, and Lord Raith. That screams of intimate family dinner type setting.. No, more like willful ignorance on Eb's part.. Oh your daughter is living with a guy, who happens to be the lord of vampires that live on sexual pleasure.. And if Eb was able to figure out they were having sex, he shouldn't have been terribly shocked that she had a child with him.
As I said, my brain goes weird places before six in the morning with only a swallow or two of coffee.
But I can see Eb lying to Harry about killing his mother, who'd want to admit a thing like that? Heck, when it comes down to it, while he elected not to, but would he have killed young Harry? He was under orders and if he thought it was really necessary.... So is Eb capable of killing his daughter and grandson? You bet he is, that is why he is the Blackstaff.
Fact, Eb has either lied or kept a lot of stuff from Harry. Eb has done a lot of bad stuff over the centuries, while the Blackstaff may protect him from black magic effects, it doesn't keep away the nightmares. To protect itself the brain will block out a lot of unpleasant stuff, it is even conceivable that Eb blocked out any thought that Margaret was capable of having sex with Lord Raith, let alone having a son by him. One one hand Eb is one of the most dangerous wizards on the planet, but at the same time he is showing signs of becoming a broken old man of 400 or so years..
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In blood rites it is made quite clear that Raith killed Margaret not just by Eb but also by Rath himself and by Margaret who pointed her curse at him.
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In blood rites it is made quite clear that Raith killed Margaret not just by Eb but also by Rath himself and by Margaret who pointed her curse at him.
And Raith couldn't or wouldn't lie? Here is another odd thing, Margaret clearly knew she was going to die for her actions.. Why else would she plant that message in the head of Thomas? Odd don't you think that Raith would wait until Margaret gave birth, then killed her, but not the baby? For that matter, since there are pictures of a pregnant Margaret in D.C., her and Malcolm didn't exactly go into hiding, so Raith could have her killed at any time. How soon after Harry was born did Margaret die? Even if she was a strong woman, she was pretty busy at that moment and threw such a clever death curse that did in Lord Raith when Eb wasn't able to touch him? Or did that curse happen a lot earlier? Blood Rites also showed us that Raith was able to get others to summon an Outsider to do what he wanted done. Also if I remember correctly Lord Raith thought if he killed Thomas he could reverse the curse.
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1 Eb doesn't actually know. He only knows it was an entropy curse. He assumes lord Raith, who has an entropy spell he's apparently known for.
2 when did Raith explicitly say such a thing?
The only solid information we have if that she was killed by an entropy curse, and it is as one of her old allies. Everything else is being assumed by watsonian means.
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We don't Know that Raith killed Margaret, but he is certainly the most likely suspect.
First, he had an available blood channel to her -- Thomas. Easy enough to take a bit of his blood and use it against Margaret.
Second, he possesses an entropy curse ritual -- the very one that he was using in an attempt to control the porn company through murder. It's likely that he killed Malcom Dresden with it later, as his dad died of an aneurysm. While people do die of those, it's pretty rare and strange for a guy who was not that old. (In fact, Harry is probably older than his dad when he died). Maybe not as rare as being hit by a car while water-skiing.
Third, he had motive to do so. At minimum, she had abandoned the "cause" that had led her to join forces with him. Moreover, she had "emasculated" him by breaking free of his control. Given that power within the White Court is so political/face/manipulation based -- that could not have been good for his authority.
Fourth, he thought -- incorrectly -- that he would be protected from her Death Curse. He'd had several wizards take him on and apparently the deal he made with the Outsiders protected him against even what McCoy would dish out. She found the loophole though.
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We don't Know that Raith killed Margaret, but he is certainly the most likely suspect.
True, but he could have killed her at any time, why wait until she had her baby? Also she just had a baby, wizard, true, but the act has a physical effect, plus her mind would be full of her new child.. Plus how did she know it was Raith that was killing her? Or was it a guess, and she decided to nail him anyway?
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That is a good point. Why did he wait? It was seemingly a few years between her fleeing Raith and having Harry.
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True, but he could have killed her at any time, why wait until she had her baby? Also she just had a baby, wizard, true, but the act has a physical effect, plus her mind would be full of her new child.. Plus how did she know it was Raith that was killing her? Or was it a guess, and she decided to nail him anyway?
The dead curse was not a spontaneous thing, it was prepared based on detailed knowledge about what lord Raith was and what he could do. It was ready and she must have recognized his magic and the curse coming just like Harry did in blood rites but she knew what it was and who directed it.
It was directed at her and she was in a vulnerable position. I think lord Raith waited until she was in a vulnerable position. Or this was not the first one and she had already survived a number of attempts and this one got her.
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In blood Rites Margaret doesn't say she threw her Death Curse.
"I did what I could," my mother said. Her eyes flickered with something dark, an ancient spark of hatred. "I made sure that his father would endure a fitting punishment for what he did to us."
"You and Thomas?"
"And you, Harry.
The working was set on Thomas before she left. She may not have used her death curse at all. My current thinking is that she muzzled Raiths demon through Thomas's. She did it and split. I also assume she had help, perhaps Lea. She may have given Harry to either Mab or Lea. When she delivered the child the note was called and the protection from Raith ceased and she died. She probably was in DC to talk to the Librarians. A White Court vampire may have killed Malcolm. In White Knight when Molly does the thing with the body she reveals that the victim died happy, maybe with a smile on her face. So maybe Lara or some other White did that deed. If you want to go full tin hat Lara may know that under this scenario that if Thomas dies Raith is freed. That'll do for me until I dream up something better.
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Oh wonderful, Lara confesses that she murdered Malcolm to Harry on their wedding night.
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Oh I thought they could have a nice bonding session torturing papa Raith.
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Margaret stayed with Raith for a few years. She had enough time to study him and his demon and see where the holes in the defense were.
And she did not break it, she plugged an entrance. She was subtle. She probably used her dead curse to do it but if it was just subtle and not big she could have done it when she left house. But if that was true Raith would have wanted her alive.
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Margaret stayed with Raith for a few years. She had enough time to study him and his demon and see where the holes in the defense were.
And she did not break it, she plugged an entrance. She was subtle. She probably used her dead curse to do it but if it was just subtle and not big she could have done it when she left house. But if that was true Raith would have wanted her alive.
Unless it was more subtle than even that, designed only to trigger if she was killed. He might have been aware of that.. Or she did do it when she left and he ordered someone else to kill her. The thing is most of the White Court seemingly were not aware of what had happened to him. He remained very much in control until Blood Rites, when Lara realized fully how weak he really was. He still remains the figure head though, which says a lot about how important appearances are to the White Court. So Margaret could have put her spell on him when she left, and a weakening Lord Raith continued to run the show, as he did for years after supposedly he murdered her and she threw her death curse.
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I imagine a prepped spell set to activate at death. Mostly, because of its complexity. Not only did she make a solution to Raith, but she managed to throw in the visitation for if Harry and Thomas ever soul gazed. A twofer. Based entirely upon the idea her current baby would not only live, but would be wizard enough to activate a soul gaze. (Which puts the timeline for when she placed the spell beyond any time she was with Raith btw, had to have been formulated after she conceived)
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I imagine a prepped spell set to activate at death. Mostly, because of its complexity. Not only did she make a solution to Raith, but she managed to throw in the visitation for if Harry and Thomas ever soul gazed. A twofer. Based entirely upon the idea her current baby would not only live, but would be wizard enough to activate a soul gaze. (Which puts the timeline for when she placed the spell beyond any time she was with Raith btw, had to have been formulated after she conceived)
Or before she conceived, pre-planning is the ticket, no point in conceiving a star born if it wouldn't survive birth and survive until adulthood.. She also made a lot of plans with Lea, Mab,Morgan, and yes, sounds like Rashid as well to insure her child survived into adulthood.. Layers of protection, almost like knowing Morgan's nature, she couldn't be sure he'd always be there for Harry... So Lea steps up because he was elsewhere and perhaps was half convinced that Harry was infected and needed to be eliminated.
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I imagine a prepped spell set to activate at death. Mostly, because of its complexity. Not only did she make a solution to Raith, but she managed to throw in the visitation for if Harry and Thomas ever soul gazed. A twofer. Based entirely upon the idea her current baby would not only live, but would be wizard enough to activate a soul gaze. (Which puts the timeline for when she placed the spell beyond any time she was with Raith btw, had to have been formulated after she conceived)
Well this is idle speculation mind you, but she could have time traveled. Gone ahead, maybe with the Mothers help to see how the boys would turn out. I mean, that once you buy into time travel, it's a solution that fixes all problems. 8)
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Well this is idle speculation mind you, but she could have time traveled. Gone ahead, maybe with the Mothers help to see how the boys would turn out. I mean, that once you buy into time travel, it's a solution that fixes all problems. 8)
But makes for very poor writing, the first time, good, the second time, okay, the third time, boring.. ::)
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Or before she conceived,
what? No. Really? No. I just explained that. Also then nothing to latch the spell onto if he wasn't even a fetus.
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what? No. Really? No. I just explained that. Also then nothing to latch the spell onto if he wasn't even a fetus.
Something as complex as you describe is thought out ahead of time. I am saying she planned it all out the moment she decided to have a star born child with Malcolm. If you want to fly to the moon, you have to dream, then you have to plan just how you are going to do it and who is going to help you plan, build the rocket, fly it, and get it back safely.. So she may have done all that you say, but I am saying it was all part of a plan that she had once she met Malcolm and decided to conceive Harry.
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In that case, I'm disagreeing she'd ever be that callous and crass as to basically use someone who she supposedly fell in love with simply to make a starborn baby. It doesn't make sense to me.
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In that case, I'm disagreeing she'd ever be that callous and crass as to basically use someone who she supposedly fell in love with simply to make a starborn baby. It doesn't make sense to me.
It wasn't callus or crass, she had Malcolm's full cooperation in the matter, though they both knew the burden this would put on Harry. Margaret admits it to Harry when he sees her in his soul gaze with Thomas. Also his father says pretty much the same thing in Dead Beat in Harry's dream. Also Lash tells him in White Night;
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth--because ofwhy you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
Harry is star born, but he is unlike any other star born because of who Margaret chose to be his father. She conceived him for a reason, and she had the full cooperation of his father, the Winter Court, and I'd wager Rashid, Uriel may have had a hand in it as well.
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In that case, I'm disagreeing she'd ever be that callous and crass as to basically use someone who she supposedly fell in love with simply to make a starborn baby. It doesn't make sense to me.
She wanted a powerful child that could repair her mistakes for the good of the world. They can be really in love and a bit over ambitious for their child. I see no contradictions.
The world is full of loving mothers who want great things for their kids even if it is sometimes too great for them.
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I don't agree it was ever planned out. You don't plan love, nor what follows from it. Heck, not even Jim is Godly enough in the DF to commit that fallicy. :o
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I don't agree it was ever planned out. You don't plan love, nor what follows from it. Heck, not even Jim is Godly enough in the DF to commit that fallicy. :o
The love was not planned but when it is there plans can be adapted.
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The love was not planned but when it is there plans can be adapted.
Exactly, it was her love for Malcolm and the goodness of his heart that gave her hope for the world. That hope was Harry, but even hope has to be protected, a life is a fragile thing. To give birth to a star born, the conditions have to be perfect, stars and planets in perfect alignment. So if she wanted to give birth with that in mind, she had no choice, so that was planned. Which is no different than couples everywhere trying to get pregnant, there is only a small window with egg and sperm are in the right spot to come together. However there has got to be more to it, because children all over the world were conceived in the same moment Harry was, it is doubtful that they will all go on to be star born children.. Or they are, but events keep them very ordinary as they grow to adults. So after meeting Malcolm, falling in love, seeing his good heart, she makes the first decision. Then she has to explain to him what she wants, he has to agree.. That is the second decision. Then why bring such a child into the world if you cannot keep it safe? They and the child will need lots of help, that too has to be planned, or there is no point to bring him into the world.. Who can she turn to that she can trust? Now that is the tricky part, her circle of "friends" who would be able to keep Harry safe and not use him for evil or their own aims is very small. She goes to Morgan, but while she can depend on his diligence, she also knows he can be persuaded and couldn't be trusted to keep the information from the Council. She goes to the Winter Court and strikes a bargain with Mab, Lea is appointed godmother, but what did she give up for this protection? It could be why Mab was so sure Harry would be her Knight one day, it was decided before he was born. Rashid, I think was in on it also, he hinted at that to Harry back in Cold Days, and he has saved Harry's bacon more than once as a Senior Council member.
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But maybe luck was helped a bit by a certain archangel. The one that does nothing but when he is around the right choice suddenly gets rewarded disproportionally. Like that sword hilt that with a really strange curve just ended in the right hands. Margaret’s free willed choice to reject empty lust got her true love in stead.
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But maybe luck was helped a bit by a certain archangel. The one that does nothing but when he is around the right choice suddenly gets rewarded disproportionally. Like that sword hilt that with a really strange curve just ended in the right hands. Margaret’s free willed choice to reject empty lust got her true love in stead.
I agree with that. That is why I added Uriel to the list of those who helped Margaret. The only thing that gave me pause was when "Jake" first shows up in Small Favor and we learn about the gift of Soul Fire, supposedly it was given because Harry rejected "Hell Fire" and the Shadow of Lasciel. But was that the only reason he showed up and Harry was given Soul Fire?
However having said that, it doesn't mean that Heaven wasn't in the business of breeding their own star child.. It isn't like it hasn't happened before, one could say that Jesus was a star child, but in His case, His Daddy was the Almighty. Harry isn't that, but since it is all about "balance," at least two of the star children that we know of seem to be playing for the other side, Drakul, Listen, there may be others. So when Malcolm showed up, he changed Margaret's outlook, result was a star child fighting for good.. Who knows, could Malcolm even been Uriel? Or one of his brothers? That could explain a lot.. Why the Denarians were so interested in Harry and attempted to get him on their side among other things.. And the "tests" of character that Harry has been put through. Susan's reaction to the soul gaze, and Denton's as well, not unlike what Mac warned Harry about... A soul gaze with an angel can burn out your mind, now a scion of an archangel might not be quite so dangerous, but it could be a bit of a shock.
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Jim might not agree but according to the tales loving a human woman makes an angel fall. I always found that one a bit harsh.
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Jim might not agree but according to the tales loving a human woman makes an angel fall. I always found that one a bit harsh.
That is the legend or myth that goes along with the type of angel Mac is, so Jim seems to be going with it. However who says Mac totally fell? I also think it is a bit more complicated that merely loving a human woman, or could be in Mac's case. I think he made a choice.. Also depending on what version you read, the kind of angel Mac is, is kind of in-between, neither in the good graces of Heaven or completely fallen for what he did.
Back to Uriel as possible daddy in Malcolm guise... I think if it did happen it would be a different thing all together than Mac. Because if it's true, Uriel would have been working under orders from the Almighty. The problem the likes of Mac ran into, was they weren't supposed to like the human ladies and have babies with them.
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In that case, I'm disagreeing she'd ever be that callous and crass as to basically use someone who she supposedly fell in love with simply to make a starborn baby. It doesn't make sense to me.
She left Thomas who was five at the time with Raith , and by doing so made him a vampire. She made Thomas the anchor for the spell knowing that if Papa found out Thomas would get eaten by a demon. Pretty callous.
The timeline is hot and tight. Give or take, the timeline suggests that the events happened quickly. Some things become at least plausible. First that Malcolm was always the designated daddy. Picked by the conspirators. Margaret was pregnant when she ran. That she could run because she fell in love with Malcolm and that fact broke the enthrallment put on by Raith.
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She left Thomas who was five at the time with Raith , and by doing so made him a vampire. She made Thomas the anchor for the spell knowing that if Papa found out Thomas would get eaten by a demon. Pretty callous.
She probably could not have taken Thomas with her and it probably would not have been a good idea. She probably thought it was incurable anyway and true love, if she even knew about that one, is not something you can arrange.
The spell was also the only thing that kept Raith under control and gave Thomas a chance.
The timeline is hot and tight. Give or take, the timeline suggests that the events happened quickly. Some things become at least plausible. First that Malcolm was always the designated daddy. Picked by the conspirators. Margaret was pregnant when she ran. That she could run because she fell in love with Malcolm and that fact broke the enthrallment put on by Raith.
I do not think Margaret was pregnant when she ran. That would mean she had a relation with Malcolm while staying with Raith which is unlikely.
I think she met him soon after.
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I think she met him soon after.
No, according to Lash, Margaret found a reason to find the courage to leave Lord Raith. That reason was Malcolm, whom she fell in love with, marriage and her pregnancy came later.
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No, according to Lash, Margaret found a reason to find the courage to leave Lord Raith. That reason was Malcolm, whom she fell in love with, marriage and her pregnancy came later.
It was never stated that the reason was Malcolm. Maybe they met before she escaped but a relationship under Raith nose resulting in a pregnancy seems unlikely.
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It was never stated that the reason was Malcolm. Maybe they met before she escaped but a relationship under Raith nose resulting in a pregnancy seems unlikely.
Not stated outright perhaps, but hinted at enough.. Eb eluded to it in Blood Rites. Chauncy says something made her change and they lost her. He also hinted that both parents were murdered. Nothing short of true love would induce her to escape Raith's clutches... Oh hold on to your tin hat, just a thought, that kind of true love felt by a powerful wizard, perhaps for an archangel disguised as a mortal man, or just a man, would wound Lord Raith's vanity/ego in the extreme... I can see a scene where he catches Margaret fleeing, it totally pisses him off, he attempts to rape her, then feed on her until she is dead... Only Margaret has true love's protection now, in spades, and it backfires big time on Lord Raith.. He is injured so severely, he cannot feed, his Hunger demon begins to feed upon him.. Until now he is only a shell, if it weren't for his deal with the Outsiders giving him some protection, he'd be dead by now. There is your death curse, and it actually makes sense.
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If Harry is the Scorn of an angel, then maybe his father is Mac. Mac and Malcolm have similar letters, and Mac is in every book(?). It would make sense why Mac now a somewhat mortal man. He sacrificed his angelicness for the sake of the future, but he still looks after his son as much as he can. In Cold Days after the Outsider attack, Mac can't help Harry because, as Mac said, "He's out," but what have we seen in the past with angles, balancing the scales. If Mac would have told Harry too much information, then the scales would not have been in balance. But he was able to help Harry a little because he does care for him. When Sharkface attached Mac's pub, wasn't he particularly angry with Mac? If so, it could be because he knew what Mac had done (helped create Harry) and was pissed about it.